ARE WE GIVING AROD A FREE PASS ??????????????????

[mraynrand]

If writers at espn and sporting news aren't enough, cowherd,dilfer, stephen a, bayless, locally bob mcginn....just off the top of my head. I don't have specific quotes at the moment but i recall it being mentioned. I gave you the math. Google. It is a known concept, not a figment of my imagination. Are you arguing that by NFL standards he has been good in those spots? He hasn't. I kinda feel sorry for some of you guys. It really is denial at this point. He is not the only factor, the quarterback is a huge factor whenever a team fails or succeeds.

Nice straw men. You keep 'winning' these against people and arguments that are pure figments of your imagination. most of the analysis here of Rodgers has been sober and even-handed, looking for the truth - except it seems on your side. Plus, a lot of this has been discus here. I suggest you follow those leads PBmax suggested. How many late leads or ties engineered by a late Rodgers drive were given up by defense or special teams? (Hint, there was one in the last game).

Next, and again: Who are your analysts? If it's some ESPN article, who wrote it? Where's the link? Who of any note was cited, or was it just an ESPN Bob McGinn who wrote it? Did the same guy who wrote it vote for Rodgers for MVP?

[th87]

If writers at espn and sporting news aren't enough, cowherd,dilfer, stephen a, bayless, locally bob mcginn....just off the top of my head. I don't have specific quotes at the moment but i recall it being mentioned. I gave you the math. Google. It is a known concept, not a figment of my imagination. Are you arguing that by NFL standards he has been good in those spots? He hasn't. I kinda feel sorry for some of you guys. It really is denial at this point. He is not the only factor, the quarterback is a huge factor whenever a team fails or succeeds.

I hear you, but those guys are idiots. Simply citing his 4th quarter comeback numbers ignores context.

The truth is in the middle - Rodgers has suffered from terrible luck early in his career, and some losses you can blame him for. But he's been much more successful in his late game comebacks as of late.

[Pugger]

Nice straw men. You keep 'winning' these against people and arguments that are pure figments of your imagination. most of the analysis here of Rodgers has been sober and even-handed, looking for the truth - except it seems on your side. Plus, a lot of this has been discus here. I suggest you follow those leads PBmax suggested. How many late leads or ties engineered by a late Rodgers drive were given up by defense or special teams? (Hint, there was one in the last game).

Next, and again: Who are your analysts? If it's some ESPN article, who wrote it? Where's the link? Who of any note was cited, or was it just an ESPN Bob McGinn who wrote it? Did the same guy who wrote it vote for Rodgers for MVP?

Right. In the last game in Seattle Rodgers did orchestrate a game tying drive late in the 4th but never saw the ball again in OT. Is a game like this included in the list of those where AR had a failed come back?

[th87]

Right. In the last game in Seattle Rodgers did orchestrate a game tying drive late in the 4th but never saw the ball again in OT. Is a game like this included in the list of those where AR had a failed come back?

This is why I hate using numbers to analyze these things. So imperfect.

However, while it was a good effort to get to FG range, I hated the lack of urgency once we got there. Rodgers seemed to get "safe".

[yetisnowman]

Nice straw men. You keep 'winning' these against people and arguments that are pure figments of your imagination. most of the analysis here of Rodgers has been sober and even-handed, looking for the truth - except it seems on your side. Plus, a lot of this has been discus here. I suggest you follow those leads PBmax suggested. How many late leads or ties engineered by a late Rodgers drive were given up by defense or special teams? (Hint, there was one in the last game).

Next, and again: Who are your analysts? If it's some ESPN article, who wrote it? Where's the link? Who of any note was cited, or was it just an ESPN Bob McGinn who wrote it? Did the same guy who wrote it vote for Rodgers for MVP?

I can't link anything with my phone at the moment plus i am not savvy tech wise. I will get back to you. I am not sure why i have to walk you through it. Can't you google stats and articles? My perception is that Aaron isn't very good late in close games and the numbers bear that out. Please don't trot out the NFCCG as an example of anything. The ineptitude of the offense was the only reason that game was even in question. I really don't think that scenario has happened much at all. We are trailing late in the 4th aaron takes the lead then we lose it again? The dude has to play better. More clutch for sure. And clutchness only doesn't exist to people validating someone has limited amounts of it

[th87]

I can't link anything with my phone at the moment plus i am not savvy tech wise. I will get back to you. I am not sure why i have to walk you through it. Can't you google stats and articles? My perception is that Aaron isn't very good late in close games and the numbers bear that out. Please don't trot out the NFCCG as an example of anything. The ineptitude of the offense was the only reason that game was even in question. I really don't think that scenario has happened much at all. We are trailing late in the 4th aaron takes the lead then we lose it again? The dude has to play better. More clutch for sure. And clutchness only doesn't exist to people validating someone has limited amounts of it

I hear the general gist of your argument, but you're somewhat off on this one. Rodgers has had some terrible luck in this regard.

Close losses in 2008:

TB: Packers down 23-21. Rodgers (with dislocated shoulder) throws interception with 2:19 remaining. TB scores TD on the subsequent play to put the game out of reach.
ATL: Packers down 20-17. Rodgers throws interception with 4:43 remaining. ATL scores TD to put the game out of reach.
TEN: Packers tie Titans 16-16 on FG with 5:35 remaining. Subsequent Titans and Packers drives stall, followed by the Titans missing the game winner. Titans get the ball in OT and win.
MIN: Packers down 28-27 with 2:30 remaining. Packers drive down to FG range and miss 52 yard FG.
CAR: Packers take 31-28 lead on a FG with 2:00 remaining. Panthers score TD 2 plays later. Rodgers throws interception with 1:19 remaining.
HOU: Packers tie game at 21-21 on a Rodgers TD pass. Subsequent Texans and Packers drives stall, and on the next drive, Texans kick game-winning FG.
JAX: Packers down 14-13, and drive to kick a FG with 5:40 remaining. Jaguars score TD on subsequent drive. Rodgers throws interception with 0:46 remaining
CHI: Bears tie game 17-17 with 3:16 remaining. Packers drive to Bears 20 on subsequent drive, and game winner is blocked with 0:25 remaining. Bears get the ball in OT and win.

[Patler]

Right. In the last game in Seattle Rodgers did orchestrate a game tying drive late in the 4th but never saw the ball again in OT. Is a game like this included in the list of those where AR had a failed come back?

Perhaps it should be. What was needed was the winning TD, not the tieing FG, and he failed to deliver that. As was discussed for several days following the game, it can be argued that AR did not make the best choices in the final three plays after getting into FG range.

If you kick the FG to tie because you run out of time, that's one thing. But if you kick the FG to tie because the drive stalled, it's not much to brag about. GB still had plenty of time left.

[mraynrand]

Perhaps it should be. What was needed was the winning TD, not the tieing FG, and he failed to deliver that. As was discussed for several days following the game, it can be argued that AR did not make the best choices in the final three plays after getting into FG range.

If you kick the FG to tie because you run out of time, that's one thing. But if you kick the FG to tie because the drive stalled, it's not much to brag about. GB still had plenty of time left.

a drive for a tie works both ways, obviously. "What was needed was the winning TD" - absolutely wrong: what was NEEDED was the tie. That keeps you alive. What was optimal, what you wanted, was the win. The tie is better than no points and a loss, and gives you a chance to win with a score on a subsequent drive. Yes a TD there probably wins and a TD in overtime wins, without having to depend on defense (assuming you get the ball). But it's a team game, and sometimes a QB has to depend on teammates to get him the ball. I seem to recall Brady needed his defense in 2001 - he tied and won with a collection of FGs in that post-season. But I guess that's not much to brag about, because he didn't win those with TDs.

[woodbuck27]

4th Qtr. Comebacks 'You say'. See my number !

I'm 'only' 5 behind Matthew Stafford.

I just flat out win !

[pbmax]

My previous post discusses how Brady folds like a cheap tent if he takes hits and has to move around. His second interception the other day occurred right after he took a big hit and started to get happy feet (believe it or not, I predicted it coming).

In any case, nobody is perfect at this.

My apologies for missing that. However, it raises a followup question; if the opponent matters, how are you differentiating between that and poor reaction to stress during a game?

Also, the list of authorities isn't impressive. Bob is just going by recent results. Besides Dilfer (and I would love to see a link to his comments), the rest are just bloviators who know less than we do.

Rodgers is not perfect and he could improve in several areas. But his team isn't perfect either, nor is his coach. And I think those factors plus the opponent, provide plenty of explanation about his playoff record without the need to speculate about his emotional state.

We just had a perfect example of how a team can conspire to lose a game its winning. A conservative approach, which vince has argued convincingly was perhaps the safest strategy, blew up in their face in all 3 phases. McCarthy failed to use his best leverage points to build up a bigger lead and the later to collect a first down. Those factors didn't depend on how well the QB reacted to stress.

[woodbuck27]

My apologies for missing that. However, it raises a followup question; if the opponent matters, how are you differentiating between that and poor reaction to stress during a game?

Also, the list of authorities isn't impressive. Bob is just going by recent results. Besides Dilfer (and I would love to see a link to his comments), the rest are just bloviators who know less than we do.

Rodgers is not perfect and he could improve in several areas. But his team isn't perfect either, nor is his coach. And I think those factors plus the opponent, provide plenty of explanation about his playoff record without the need to speculate about his emotional state.

We just had a perfect example of how a team can conspire to lose a game its winning. A conservative approach, which vince has argued convincingly was perhaps the safest strategy, blew up in their face in all 3 phases. McCarthy failed to use his best leverage points to build up a bigger lead and the later to collect a first down. Those factors didn't depend on how well the QB reacted to stress.

To get into all that your talking University Level Post Grad Thesis.

Some QB's just from a standpoint of observing them in certain situations may get the 'he's a choker' label.

This Super Bowl game was set for what any fan might hope for. For those fans it was perfect. For someone to win the other must lose.

The team and QB with the ball last leads his team in a drive and is a key ingredient in deciding the outcome.

Depended on that outcome can you declare 'a choke' or a failure to execute?

Russell Wilson gunned a near perfect pass.

Ricardo Lockette nearly got to and his hands on that pass.

New England's DB Malcolm Butler executed a perfect aggressive pursuit to get to the ball and managed to pick it.

No one fumbled the ball away or we didn't see Russell Wilson mishandle the snap or otherwise fail to get a pass off. He certainly didn't ....as some silly fans for whatever agenda might desire to paint it...choke.

After the play is called it was as we all saw it. A tremendous defensive play by an inexperienced defensive back. That man was Tom Brady and Bill Belichicks HERO for that Super Bowl win.

[mraynrand]

Depended on that outcome can you declare 'a choke' or a failure to execute?

So did Wilson choke or fail to execute?

[woodbuck27]

So did Wilson choke or fail to execute?

Neither !

[yetisnowman]

I hear the general gist of your argument, but you're somewhat off on this one. Rodgers has had some terrible luck in this regard.

Close losses in 2008:

TB: Packers down 23-21. Rodgers (with dislocated shoulder) throws interception with 2:19 remaining. TB scores TD on the subsequent play to put the game out of reach.
ATL: Packers down 20-17. Rodgers throws interception with 4:43 remaining. ATL scores TD to put the game out of reach.
TEN: Packers tie Titans 16-16 on FG with 5:35 remaining. Subsequent Titans and Packers drives stall, followed by the Titans missing the game winner. Titans get the ball in OT and win.
MIN: Packers down 28-27 with 2:30 remaining. Packers drive down to FG range and miss 52 yard FG.
CAR: Packers take 31-28 lead on a FG with 2:00 remaining. Panthers score TD 2 plays later. Rodgers throws interception with 1:19 remaining.
HOU: Packers tie game at 21-21 on a Rodgers TD pass. Subsequent Texans and Packers drives stall, and on the next drive, Texans kick game-winning FG.
JAX: Packers down 14-13, and drive to kick a FG with 5:40 remaining. Jaguars score TD on subsequent drive. Rodgers throws interception with 0:46 remaining
CHI: Bears tie game 17-17 with 3:16 remaining. Packers drive to Bears 20 on subsequent drive, and game winner is blocked with 0:25 remaining. Bears get the ball in OT and win.

I don't see much bad luck in those losses, minus the bears loss with chip shot being blocked. The others displayed all involve Aaron having an opportunity to lead us to a win or at least putting us in a better situation to win, and failing to do so. The mentality that stalling drives and throwing interceptions is one of bad luck, I don't understand.

[pbmax]

Who stalled the drives, Rodgers or McCarthy? M3 loves throttling down in FG range to eat clock.

[yetisnowman]

Who stalled the drives, Rodgers or McCarthy? M3 loves throttling down in FG range to eat clock.

I only see one instance of that in the examples listed. I said that one is not on him with the blocked fg vs. Chicago. A stalled drive and a punt, or a interception to end the game....Aaron has to take a lot of blame for those. That is mostly what i am seeing. Missing a 52 yd fg is not a blunder or misshap. That happens. Even the last game, we didn't settle for a fg or run out of time....we were unable to get a first down to push for a win. And yes that is what we needed...I knew we would not win in OT.

[ThunderDan]

4th Qtr. Comebacks 'You say'. See my number !

I'm 'only' 5 behind Matthew Stafford.

I just flat out win !

ARod - 76-38 as a starter 66.7%
Matthew Stafford - 35-44 as a starter 44.3%

Yup, I would pick Matthew Stafford as my QB because he can bring my team back.

[pbmax]

I only see one instance of that in the examples listed. I said that one is not on him with the blocked fg vs. Chicago. A stalled drive and a punt, or a interception to end the game....Aaron has to take a lot of blame for those. That is mostly what i am seeing. Missing a 52 yd fg is not a blunder or misshap. That happens. Even the last game, we didn't settle for a fg or run out of time....we were unable to get a first down to push for a win. And yes that is what we needed...I knew we would not win in OT.

There are five cases where Rodgers drove them into FG and a FG was attempted. That was precisely my point.

Interceptions to end games are precisely what the criticism is about, though in reverse of your claim. The theory about his comeback record that has been put forward is that he doesn't take enough risks at the end of the game when behind, when those risks are justified by the game situation.

So if you wish to claim that INTs are the reason he doesn't produce more 4th Quarter comebacks, then you need to explain why subsequent seasons, when his INT numbers have plummeted, the 4th Qtr comebacks are still not plentiful.

The "people who analyze QB play" are actually saying there should be more INTs in certain situations in order to increase the odds of making a 4th Quarter comeback.

[ThunderDan]

Russell Wilson gunned a near perfect pass.

Ricardo Lockette nearly got to and his hands on that pass.

New England's DB Malcolm Butler executed a perfect aggressive pursuit to get to the ball and managed to pick it.

Actually the throw was high. If he throws the ball at waist level it is a TD or at worst an incomplete pass. Malcom Butler could only contest the throw because it was up high and could get through the WR's arms to the ball.

[ThunderDan]

It was so horrible winning 19 games in a row and a Super Bowl without a 4th quarter comeback. It was horrible going 17 wins in a row without winning a close game of 4 points or less.