Bosa still unsigned

[Guiness]

One of the best things about the last CBA was removing any (turns out, most) reasons for rookie holdouts. Looks like the Chargers have found a way to create one anyways.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...bosa-chargers/

Best description of the situation I've seen is here
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...osas-position/


By all accounts, the problem seems to be that the Chargers want their cake, and eat it too. They want offset language and a deferred signing bonus. Bosa reportedly wants only 1 of the 2, which has been the precedent before now.

Curiously, a few players (and a the coach) have come out with statements like "he's missing important reps" and "he needs to sign the contract" and not "it's business" or "the team needs to get him signed"

[pbmax]

This will go a long way to getting them funding for a new stadium after Jerry shut them down in LA.

[Zool]

Sign the contract, rook, and start showing you deserve it. Guys that hold out get hurt quite often.

[pbmax]

^ Nope. Team is trying to claw back concessions they they and other teams have granted. The Chargers are making a big ask and offering nothing in return.

[smuggler]

Yeah, gotta say fuck the Chargers on this one. Hope they are forced to trade him and he goes to a team that is relevant.

[Guiness]

A question I have is, would the deferred payment be fully, fully guaranteed? If so, why does the team care so much about holding onto the money an extra 6 months? Conversely, why is he so anxious to get the cash?
On the other hand, if there are scenarios that allow the team to get out of paying the money (like say, killing your fiance's sister's boyfriend) then I can understand Bosa wanting the money NOW.

[King Friday]

Dumb move by the player...sign the deal and get into camp. The value of the camp time being missed will rapidly outpace the value of having a signing bonus a couple months earlier if the holdout stretches past a few days. Rookie pass rushers often find the introduction to the NFL to be quite an ass-kicking.

[Patler]

I don't look at this as a big request from the team at all. The fact some teams treated a few top of the first round draft picks differently than others in the first round doesn't obligate the Charges to do the same.

From the players' perspective, there is an artificial line somewhere in the first round; if you were picked before that line you get all of your bonus immediately, and if you were picked after, some of your bonus is paid later. What good reason is there to treat some differently, and where should the line be drawn? Why shouldn't all rookie signing bonuses be paid on the same schedule?

Probably an issue for the next CBA, definitive agreement on payment of rookie signing bonuses.

[Zool]

Unless I misunderstand, the off-set part is the big sticking point. Why the fuck would SD let the guy double dip on the back end of a contract? If he's so overly confident in his abilities then he should know he'll play out at least the 4 full years if not the team option 5th. If he sucks and they cut him, he's still due the money being that it's guaranteed. SD is saying that if he signs with another team, they are off the hook for the remainder that's covered by his new contract.

To which I say, get your ass to camp rook and prove that you're not the next top 5 flop.

[Guiness]

I don't look at this as a big request from the team at all. The fact some teams treated a few top of the first round draft picks differently than others in the first round doesn't obligate the Charges to do the same.

From the players' perspective, there is an artificial line somewhere in the first round; if you were picked before that line you get all of your bonus immediately, and if you were picked after, some of your bonus is paid later. What good reason is there to treat some differently, and where should the line be drawn? Why shouldn't all rookie signing bonuses be paid on the same schedule?

Probably an issue for the next CBA, definitive agreement on payment of rookie signing bonuses.

Conversely, I don't see it as much of a request from the player. It's a signing bonus, give it to him when he signs! I don't understand why the Chargers are taking such a hard line on this, do they have cash flow problems? Contract is slotted, can they pull it off the table? Seems to me if they're insisting on offset language and signing bonus deferment, he's got nothing (monetarily) to lose, and he'll get the same now or if he signs the night before the season opens.

[pbmax]

A question I have is, would the deferred payment be fully, fully guaranteed? If so, why does the team care so much about holding onto the money an extra 6 months? Conversely, why is he so anxious to get the cash?
On the other hand, if there are scenarios that allow the team to get out of paying the money (like say, killing your fiance's sister's boyfriend) then I can understand Bosa wanting the money NOW.

Deferred would mean lost value (present value versus future value) but mainly its control. If Joey Bosa goes Maurice Clarett, deferred money can be withheld by the team if they or the League feel they have cause. Money paid upfront is harder to get back.

[Patler]

Conversely, I don't see it as much of a request from the player. It's a signing bonus, give it to him when he signs! I don't understand why the Chargers are taking such a hard line on this, do they have cash flow problems? Contract is slotted, can they pull it off the table? Seems to me if they're insisting on offset language and signing bonus deferment, he's got nothing (monetarily) to lose, and he'll get the same now or if he signs the night before the season opens.

Apparently it is standard to pay the signing bonus in installments for everyone but a few early first round picks. I think all rookie signing bonuses should be treated the same by all teams, whether it be 100% at signing, or in a couple installments. I see no reason to have it be a point of contention when so much in their first contracts is predetermined already.

[Patler]

Deferred would mean lost value (present value versus future value) but mainly its control. If Joey Bosa goes Maurice Clarett, deferred money can be withheld by the team if they or the League feel they have cause. Money paid upfront is harder to get back.

Ultimately it comes down to whether they have a right to get the money away from the player whether already paid or not. Procedurely there might be advantages if not yet paid, but it won't change the determination of rights. Besides, chances are he will already have the money anyway because the postponed payment is only until March anyway.

[pbmax]

Ultimately it comes down to whether they have a right to get the money away from the player whether already paid or not. Procedurely there might be advantages if not yet paid, but it won't change the determination of rights. Besides, chances are he will already have the money anyway because the postponed payment is only until March anyway.

I do not agree that the final amount is determined by legal rights only. Settlements of claims alone add in variation to the letter of the law.

But put that aside. Both sides want to be in control of the money for as long as possible.

This is the reverse of the player agents who tried, successfully for a while, to get mega bonuses into the contracts of the early first round picks. Year by year they wore teams down and got the money for lower picks. Before the last CBA, they were close to the 10th pick of the round.

[Patler]

I do not agree that the final amount is determined by legal rights only. Settlements of claims alone add in variation to the letter of the law.

Potential settlements are the procedural advantages I was referring to. However, the chance of a settlement is really quite small because the overlying issue is huge for the league and the union. Each will take it as far as they can to win.

[pbmax]

Ultimately it comes down to whether they have a right to get the money away from the player whether already paid or not. Procedurely there might be advantages if not yet paid, but it won't change the determination of rights. Besides, chances are he will already have the money anyway because the postponed payment is only until March anyway.

Boss was the third pick in the first round in 2016. Has it been standard for other 3rd picks overall?

[call_me_ishmael]

Joey Bosa? Flop? Did you see the kid play in college? He'll be a beast in short order. I wouldn't sign the deal either if the team isn't following the protocol that other teams do. It's not like he's short on money, his family is very wealthy. There is a collective bargaining agreement for a reason and there is a SOP WRT these rookie deals. If the Chargers aren't following it and yanking him around, why would he sign? They'll be plenty of other teams interested in his services.

[Patler]

But put that aside. Both sides want to be in control of the money for as long as possible.

This is the reverse of the player agents who tried, successfully for a while, to get mega bonuses into the contracts of the early first round picks. Year by year they wore teams down and got the money for lower picks. Before the last CBA, they were close to the 10th pick of the round.

Of course each side wants control of the money for as long as possible, and I completely understand why the union and agent want to make a big deal about it. If he were honest when asked, I would bet Bosa himself would gladly sign and come into camp. In effect he is "taking one for the team", with the team being the NFLPA.

I don't think there is a right or wrong here. I negotiated many contracts in the business world that had huge guaranteed payments upon signing. Sometimes the checks were on the table when the contracts were signed, sometimes they were payable over time. Ultimately, when the time period is short, it is a silly issue to delay a deal unless cash flow is a problem. In the world of NFL rookie contracts it seems to me to be an absolutely stupid issue to keep a player out of camp because it is not the actual players issue, it is the team vs the union, and the player suffers. So, specify it in the next CBA and force the teams and union to address issues of significance instead of quibbling.

[Patler]

Boss was the third pick in the first round in 2016. Has it been standard for other 3rd picks overall?

Has it been standard for the Chargers? Has it even been standard for 1st round picks generally?

My point is simply it is stupid to have an artificial, probably varying line at some level in the first round for treating bonuses differently.

[King Friday]

Did you see the kid play in college?

I live near Columbus. I've seen him a lot. Bosa is a very good prospect. He's not a can't-miss prospect or short order "beast" though. He relied extensively on his superior size and strength in college, along with having a lot of superior talent around him in defensive support. All those advantages are now gone at the NFL level. He's not a guy with freakish speed that can just beat NFL OTs from a three point stance. He doesn't have a wide array of pass rush moves and will need to learn and adapt. However, he is technically sound with his hands and feet for the most part, so I don't think he will be prone to becoming a total flop.

He needs to get his ass into camp and start figuring out what it takes to succeed in the NFL...because I'm not sure he's a kid who has ever had to really WORK to get ahead in football to this point. Some guys relish that challenge...some guys shrink from it. Only time will tell which group Bosa falls into.