One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers
I agree. The problems with the O line explain a lot. Much like Rodgers gets comfortable with his top receiver (Jennings, Nelson), knowing each other's nuances, the same could be said for Rodgers and Bacteria - Rodgers moves in the pocket in a particular way, and Bac often can play cat and mouse with the pass rusher, just keeping him at bay while Rodgers moves around back there. The fill-in guys have either been incompetent (Murphy, Spriggs) or more conventional (Taybor™), but none have been as athletic as Bac and allowed for those 'extended pockets' that are such a feature of the Rodgers-led offense. The way that Rodgers-Bakhtiari relationship works is really an art form.
"Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck
vince,
Can you post the personnel numbers for 2015? The 2016 numbers featured an offense without its best TE, so McCarthy was using other formations. Injuries certainly played a role in the drought, it was not just game plans and personnel groups.
During run the table, Cook was back and getting increasingly healthy. He was operating in the middle of the field, against the middle of the defense. Even if he is running a crossing route (like his catch versus the Cowboys in the playoffs) that is threatening the middle of the D, even if the play was extended and the throw was from outside the hash to outside the hash. He was bracketed by a LB and a safety (or nickel CB) I believe.
As I recall, prior to Giants and McAdoo, it was the Packers leading the lead in 11 personnel.
Last edited by pbmax; 10-07-2017 at 01:45 PM.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
I think this is true for this year with a banged up O line and featuring quicker throws. The Packers are near the top of the League in throws under 5 yards.
But I suspect that with Tackle health, Rodgers will have his freedom back. I don't think McCarthy works against that, I think he encourages it unless its going to get him killed because of 4 Guards on the O line.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
I don't see how you can watch last year's offense with Cook and not say he is not attacking the middle of the field (and the defense). He wasn't lined up on the boundary.
This year they are running combos with Cobb and Bennett to shake Cobb open in the middle.
Have the total number of plays to the middle gone up? Probably not, they still prefer to attack the edges. But I think that red zone and 3rd down rankings reflect their play.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
After the first pass through vince's numbers, I think McCarthy still does not change his play approach until there simply is no other choice. We have discussed that as a strength before and it is, because it helps the team perform at a high level and plug players in when the inevitable injuries strike. A consistent and simpler playbook works for more situations in today's NFL.
Rodgers helps him make this approach work by being able to operate well pre-snap, with audibles and extending plays. But even with Nelson, Cobb, Jones and a hole at TE, the offense struggled at times to get open against man even in 2014*.
So there is a limit. With Nelson hurt or recovering, being without a TE threat or a banged up Cobb, you have Rand's situation, where the players available need scheme help because the skill position talent aren't winning one on one. Adams and perhaps Allison are the exciting possible exceptions here.
Something I did not consider while writing this is that McCarthy, rather than redo his offense with scheme for basic plays this year, has redone his situational offense instead. So red zone and 3rd down as looking good so far, though we are in for a film adjustment period soon as D coordinators will have the full four weeks of film to review of the new offense starting this week.
The other thing is the TEs. They go 3 deep, each has some skill as a receiver Rodger's trusts, but all of them can block. Which really puts pressure on a D.
* The games versus Seattle (obviously great D), Detroit in Detroit and Buffalo (possibly one of the worst O games of M3/Rodgers career versus a great D on the road) come to mind. And games versus Fangio and the great 49er D during Harbaugh's tenure. Many of these games though were on the road though, which makes a discernible to the naked eye difference in the Packers pass protection.
Though I accept no excuses for the O's performance versus San Fran in the home playoff game in 2013. Seriously, the Defense stood up despite losing a corner and OLB in the first quarter and held. The Packer O at home was mediocre. On the other hand, the 2014 Offense lead the league in scoring. So we are talking about only a handful of plays. Problem is, several of them have been in the playoffs.
Last edited by pbmax; 10-07-2017 at 02:24 PM.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
so, if tubby mcfatty didn't have #12, this is a 0-4 team
that seems about right
It just wasn't that many plays. 30 to Cook, 30 to Rodgers (and he caught a lot of those outside). Even Cook's most celebrated catch counts as an outside catch! 2015 Numbers are 58 for Rodgers and 11 for Perillo - and the total yards are pretty close to the same.
I do think that there was some influence with Cook in there, but not a ton.
"Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck
30 catches on 51 targets though, and that was 5 starts and 10 games. And his return clearly sparked the offense.
Disregarding the semantic hole we are in danger of falling down, given where Cook and Rodgers lined up, they were covered by middle of the field defenders. Defenses weren't putting the #1 or #2 CB on them. They were covered by combinations of slot corners, safeties and linebackers.
And Cook's crossing routes did attack the center of the field. It is true also though, that his #1 route, especially early, was an flat/out. But remember, even on that route, he as pulling a slot corner with him.
But I am not trying to argue he changed his entire offense, I think his changes were modest. But he did need an infusion of matchup problems.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
Regarding Cook and his Directional Play Frequency, I'm going by the objective data, not some vague statement(s) that tend to be developed to fit with an individual's narrative or understanding of reality. That said, if you want to include crossing routes from one side to the other outside boundary, that will even out over time. There's just nothing suggesting they changed their approach signficantly to attack the middle of the field upon their resurgence with Cook or someone else.
https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/d...ncy--off-.html
2016 Week 11-21 (Cook's Return from Injury and Roughly the Start of Offensive Resurgence)
TE Directional Play Frequency Distribution
Left - 40%
Middle - 18%
Right - 41%
Here are some (they don't have them all) of his routes charted by game.
Not definitive perhaps but I'd say informative. His route chart consistently (not exclusively) starts from TE position toward boundaries pretty consistently with the frequencies noted on the other data site.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/...COO152641/2016
4 from right to left outside - 2 complete for 16 yds.
1 from right to middle - 0 complete for 0 yds.
0 from left to middle
1 from left to right outside - 1 complete for 18 yds.
3 left to left outside - 1 complete for TD 6 yds.
5 right to right outside - 4 complete for 56 yds.
1 from right to left outside - 1 complete for 35 yds.
1 from right to middle - 0 complete for 0 yds.
0 from left to middle - 0 complete for 0 yds.
1 from left to right outside - 1 complete for 18 yds.
2 left to left outside - 0 complete for 0 yds.
7 right to right outside - 4 complete for 61 yds. and TD
0 from right to left outside - 0 complete for 0 yds.
1 from right to middle - 0 complete for 0 yds.
1 from left to middle - 0 complete for 0 yds.
1 from left to right outside - 0 complete for 0 yds.
6 left to left outside - 3 complete for 48 yds. and TD
2 right to right outside - 2 complete for 57 yds.
Totals for 3 games featured
5 from right to left outside - 3 complete for 51 yds.
3 from right to middle - 0 complete for 0 yds.
1 from left to middle - 0 complete for 0 yds.
2 from left to right outside - 2 complete for 36 yds.
11 left to left outside - 4 complete for 54 yds. and 2 TD
14 right to right outside - 10 complete for 174 yds. and TD
Last edited by vince; 10-07-2017 at 05:00 PM.
In those three games, I count 4 catches from the traditional TE spot or perhaps slot/wing, in the middle third of the field.
He might be headed left or right, but those routes traverse and are defended by interior defenders. I'd be curious the effect this had on Cobb and Monty's catches.
One thing they did not do with Cook, which surprised me even last year with his speed and height, was attack deep down the middle. His most common route was that flat route he ran while the WR ran a slant. McCarthy is still using that this year to get the ball out quickly.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
The remaining problems are running the ball (the best way to get a team out of Cover 2) and the deep ball.
The O line health status doesn't help there.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
Right I missed the run after catch on those. But even if we assume that they increased their middle of the field attack when they got their receiving TE back (The data I've seen still doesn't support any change to that effect. If anything it's slightly the opposite.) I don't see how that constitutes some kind of epiphany on McCarthy's part to become more creative and varied with playcalling and/or personnel groupings.
McCarthy said right from the start when Cook was signed that a TE who can attack the middle of the field is important and he brings that. So we all agree the threat is important. I also agree that it's interesting that they (with Cook at least) didn't actually do it more, perhaps because they continued to have far lower production when they did. It depends on defensive schemes and tendencies. Teams whose coverage schemes demand their inside backers to track receivers down the deep middle are soft there, but the Tampa 2 scheme where the deep safeties play wide and that's a key component isn't featured much throughout the league any more. 2 deep safety nickel and dime defenses where there's a guy on each hash 10 yards off the ball covering the seams from the get-go and a defender head up on the TE at the line disrupting his release also tend to negate that.
This is consistent with how the Packers offensive scheme operates (and pretty much always has under McCarthy) to put players in the best position to succeed through preparation, planning and dynamically attacking the defense where they're weakest as opposed to some new creative "scheming" (in your words) for new and more combinations of players and formation so they can throw it to Cook down the middle more by design because he's pretty good. The latter just hasn't and doesn't happen - not since that blew up with Finley one of the many years he got hurt.
The former has always and continues to be their approach - with improvements/adjustments related to player health/available skill level, offensive play style, tempo, rhythm, etc. designed to take advantage of the unique skills and intelligence of their QB to first attack by plan with quick release and accuracy based on tendency, but then also with opportunities that creates for what they really want/need to win - to capitalize on their unique and highly effective competitive advantage - their QB's off-the-charts football IQ and his unprecedented ability to extend plays, see things before they're there - and deliver the ball downfield with velocity, accuracy, and timeliness.
Defenses adjusted to prevent all that. For awhile they succeeded (they still do to varying degrees) because 1) the Packers committed too much to their "second phase" attack right from the start of games before establishing the fast pace tempo and play style that they've found it needs to succeed, and 2) the Packers receivers were unsuccessful in separating from man coverage and/or the QB was more averse to throwing into tighter windows associated with shorter throws.
Then the Packers adjusted with simpler attack and emphasis on getting into rhythm to establish play style and speed up game tempo to their advantage and enable Rodgers to be more effective at the things he's uniquely good at. It's been strategic adjustments to overcome what defenses did to offset all that more than tactical adjustments to personnel groups, formations and/or the plays they run. Those change (or not) game to game based on opponent and how they think they can exploit the defensive scheme, match-ups, etc. they think they'll encounter as well as the status of their own lineup, player health, availability, strengths, exposures, etc.
Maybe McCarthy errs at times by overestimating his guys or expecting too much from them (not a bad flaw if you're a football coach), but it's not nor ever has been because of a lack of ability or willingness to "scheme". Sometimes injuries, experience and/or ability means the other guy wins. Notwithstanding the possibility of an elusive solution to injury trends that have impacted them in specific areas (as it relates to the scope of this thread), I think McCarthy is among the elites at getting his guys ready and putting them in the best position possible to succeed throughout the game.
Last edited by vince; 10-08-2017 at 09:19 AM.