Mike Pettine

[mraynrand]

The current plight of the Packers is a direct result of Ron AND Ted's flawed way of doing things. It was masked for over two decades by the greatness of Aaron Rodgers and Favre before him, but it caught up with us last season.

As always, this is a very stupid take. Success and draft position are inversely related, so that the greater are Favre and Rodgers (and the schemes developed by the coaches who train them) the lower the draft status, which is more responsible for the quality of players than the GMs. Success with draft picks and success with FAs are not guaranteed, but FA failure is literally more costly, making it inherently more risky.

I'll say it one last time - based on overall success, relative to the rest of the NFL, anyone who thinks that Wolf and TT are flawed GMs is a fool.

[texaspackerbacker]

That's pretty weak - blaming it on "draft position" - in light of posting about "Belichickism", etc. and other teams building up overall strength way more than the Packers under similar or not much worse circumstances.

The stupid take is clinging to the crap that Ted Thompson was responsible rather than a drag on Packer success.

[mraynrand]

That's pretty weak - blaming it on "draft position" - in light of posting about "Belichickism", etc. and other teams building up overall strength way more than the Packers under similar or not much worse circumstances.

The stupid take is clinging to the crap that Ted Thompson was responsible rather than a drag on Packer success.

Well I see you've upped the ante on stupidity. First, if you just want to compare to Belichick then fine - you will be disappointed. Because he's the best - by far. It's like an innovator saying if I can't be like Edison or Jobs, then I suck.

Second, Thompson was more successful - bottom line - than all but two or three of his contemporary GMs. So saying he's a drag on Packer success is just stubborn idiocy. He brought in the coach who developed the offense and the QB that GB ran to great success. You can't separate him from those results and cast them onto Rodgers in isolation (well you can, but you look the fool). He brought in the parts that worked with Rodgers - Jennings, Jones, Nelson, Finley, and the O-line (which when healthy was considered one of the best in the NFL - certainly based on FA his O-linemen were well-regarded; e.g. Lang and Sitton). Despite the hatred of Capers and the defense, he did bring in the parts that kept them competitive for many years.

Show me the teams that built up 'overall strength' 'way better' than the Packers over TT's run. And how do you argue that without considering how their bottom line compares in regular season and playoff wins, playoff appearances, and championships. You know, the things that matter.

[pbmax]

"Draft and develop" is nothing but a lame excuse incompetent GMs/coaches use to buy time. NFL stands for "Not for Long," doesn't it?

Quarterback is possibly the only position in the NFL in which further "development" is necessary. College is for development. The NFL is for improvement. In other words, players develop in college and in the NFL they seek to get better. As Wolf liked to say, you either can play or you can't in the NFL. An NFL player has to continue getting better, or more likely than not, he will get replaced. You draft a Deshawn Wynn, you get a Deshawn Wynn. You're not gonna "develop" Wynn into a Adrian Peterson.

College's do less development than ever before as practice time has dwindled. Also hurts when college schemes don't match the pros.

NFL relies more and more on younger players as salary cap make the young ones much less expensive.

Develop is more important than ever.

[pbmax]

I guess you're too young to remember back in the day George Allen and the Redskins trading away virtually their entire draft almost every year. They were pretty successful at that alternative method of team building. I don't necessarily advocate that or even a modern version of it, but just saying ......

Edward Bennett Williams: I gave George an unlimited budget and he exceeded it.

You couldn't do George Allen these days without rebuilding as often as the Florida Marlins. He once traded a draft pick he did not control.

[pbmax]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

[Smidgeon]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

Fingers crossed Gute is more like TT than most of the forum desires.

[ZachMN]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

I agree with this- I just wish TT would have been better with the D linemen. I feel that we had more busts than serviceable players. I am willing to bet most of the GM's have ups and downs in terms of 'success' however we agree to measure that objectively. And I maybe wrong in my evaluation of his D lineman success...I guess I just want players who are more dominating thus allowing us a decent pass rush. But to your last statement Hoody genius is just that and somehow he gets players to buy in and then cash in via winning.

[gbgary]

Fingers crossed Gute is more like TT...

after Rodgers moves on and the sun explodes...fine, but until then it should be win-now.

[ThunderDan]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

Seattle started having trouble once they had to start paying their drafted players 2nd contracts. Pay your qb $750,000 a year. No problem keeping you pro bowlers on D. The Sea D has been picked apart now that Wilson is making fair market value.

[texaspackerbacker]

Good GMs (is Belichick even the GM?) don't make great teams, but they can ruin them or at least make them worse - Ted Thompson being a prime example. Belichick's best quality is doing no harm. I reject the idea that he has some kind of a monopoly on football smarts. Like almost every other consistent winner, he has had some great LUCK - getting Brady in the 6th round among other things - and has managed to not screw things up. Cheating probably hasn't hurt his outcomes either.

[mraynrand]

So the great GM's don't actually draft or acquire talent. They just throw darts and then get out of the way of the coaching staff?

[pbmax]

I agree with this- I just wish TT would have been better with the D linemen. I feel that we had more busts than serviceable players. I am willing to bet most of the GM's have ups and downs in terms of 'success' however we agree to measure that objectively. And I maybe wrong in my evaluation of his D lineman success...I guess I just want players who are more dominating thus allowing us a decent pass rush. But to your last statement Hoody genius is just that and somehow he gets players to buy in and then cash in via winning.

I do buy the idea that Ted ignored FA and trades at his own peril. And at times it has hurt, though no one remembers that FA is no panacea when they are criticizing. Of the three reasonably priced FAs this year, one played well (Evans) and he was a pros pro. Very much like Peppers.

The team needs an approach to find the best value (production/cost) to slim down the needs before the draft and actually allow some more BPA during the draft.

But more free agency with a poor hit rate isn't going to fix the team. And Ted is no longer drafting. And his record with his team was Top 2-3 in the league. Tough act to follow even with Rodgers.

[mraynrand]

after Rodgers moves on and the sun explodes...fine, but until then it should be win-now.

Let's say this is right. Now do the heavy lifting. Given the salary cap, who do they cut and who do they sign to win now? Specific players, please.

[Joemailman]

I do buy the idea that Ted ignored FA and trades at his own peril. And at times it has hurt, though no one remembers that FA is no panacea when they are criticizing. Of the three reasonably priced FAs this year, one played well (Evans) and he was a pros pro. Very much like Peppers.

The team needs an approach to find the best value (production/cost) to slim down the needs before the draft and actually allow some more BPA during the draft.

But more free agency with a poor hit rate isn't going to fix the team. And Ted is no longer drafting. And his record with his team was Top 2-3 in the league. Tough act to follow even with Rodgers.

Except maybe he wasn't top 2 or 3 in recent years. Some real misses in Ist 3 rounds (Jerel Worthy, Khyri Thornton, Rollins, Spriggs, Fackrell). Maybe Gutey can do better.

[bobblehead]

Seattle started having trouble once they had to start paying their drafted players 2nd contracts. Pay your qb $750,000 a year. No problem keeping you pro bowlers on D. The Sea D has been picked apart now that Wilson is making fair market value.

But..But, Schneider makes brilliant moves like trading a 2nd for Sheldon Richardson that keeps him right in the superbowl hunt. He uses FA and trades and is brilliant. Look at how he traded an all pro center for Jimmy Graham and they went on to win multiple super bowls.

[pbmax]

Except maybe he wasn't top 2 or 3 in recent years. Some real misses in Ist 3 rounds (Jerel Worthy, Khyri Thornton, Rollins, Spriggs, Fackrell). Maybe Gutey can do better.

His 2011-13 drafts were poor overall, especially on D. I still think Spriggs is the starting RT next year. Fackrell is serviceable and moved his play up a notch this year, though still no pass rush.

I would consider neither to be in Worthy range, who couldn't do what he was signed to do (penetrate) and was terrible at holding the point of attack.

Rollins, should he be able to be healthy for a year, will be interesting to watch. So I think the book is still out on more recent efforts.

[Smidgeon]

Except maybe he wasn't top 2 or 3 in recent years. Some real misses in Ist 3 rounds (Jerel Worthy, Khyri Thornton, Rollins, Spriggs, Fackrell). Maybe Gutey can do better.

Nobody has no misses.

[Fritz]

When PB writes that it would help to be active before the draft to "actually allow some more BPA during the draft," I think back to Ted's early drafts. He seemed to go more BPA in those days - did the team need Aaron Rodgers at that moment? Did it need Jordy Nelson at that point? It was once Ted starting seeming at least to choose for need (say, what a coincidence that the team needed a safety so bad and the best player on the board happened to be Clinton-Dix, or that the team needed a penetrating pass rusher and traded up for Jerel Worthless) that things seemed to go less well.

[Bretsky]

One thing people forget is that GMs and coaches cannot swapped out according to mathematical principles. You can't use the transitive property or substitution property.

Ted plus more FA and trades doesn't equal Belichick. Doesn't work that way. People have different skills and do a variable job of hiring other good people (and then listening to them) about things they do not excel in. Ted built an org that drafted like their life depended on it, mainly because it does. The guys who would be more FA or trade friendly? McKenzie is going backward in Oakland and may have taken a drastic hit in power, Schneider's team is falling apart on defense without a bevy of young top picks and Dorsey got fired from a team that is truly the definition of one and done.

Odds are hugely against Gutekunst being as good at building a team as Ted or Ron. Even if he adds some more FAs or trades for people.

And I would wager my last dollar the small difference between the Packers and the Patriots over the last decade plus was coaching, not personnel.

So you are saying we should blame Ted for hiring the wrong coach ?