McCarthy and "Close Games"

[pbmax]

I'll give it a stab at another date........but.......here are guys off the top of my head I'd take over Stubby

Some will be more proven and some less proven

From the AFC

Hoody Genius--Best of the Best
Mike Tomlin-----No Brainer
Jeff Fischer-----Perhaps I overrate this guy but I've always put him in the top tier of coaches
Jim Caldwell----Gotta give him his due for keeping the truck rolling
John Harbaugh--Excellent coach
Rey Ryan----------------debateable whether I'd take him or MM

From the NFC

Sean Payton--No Brainer
Mike Smith--No Brainer
Andy Reid--No Brainer
Ken Whisenhunt---Not sure about this one either


OK, so by my own admission since there are 32 teams I have to consider MM above average and perhaps a top 8-10 NFL Coach right now.
Certainly not a guy I'd ponder firing

For those who think less of him I'd challenge you to list the coaches you'd take over MM; when you look at the list there are a lot of really raw and unproven coaches out there

Let me just point out that this list leaves McCarthy presumably at 11th. Higher than the 14-18 rank estimated by someone earlier.

Also let's point out that Mike Smith hasn't won squat and has the healthiest team in the league. And he just lost at home to the Patriots on a questionable call in the 4th Quarter.

John Harbaugh has his name and a win in Foxboro over the Patriots in the payoffs to his credit plus a 9-7 season in his first year that would not qualify for the playoffs this year.

Wisenhunt had the end of last year plus the entire offseason to find a replacement for Warner. He waived his first choice and selected Derek Andersen as his second. That decision has sunk his season.

Tomlin is winning with his team approved assistants and defense (LeBeau and Arians) not his own staff. Its still Cowher's team except at WR.

Caldwell has done nothing of note. I might have taken Fisher at one point, but after this many years, he may be done. Rex Ryan has gotten more credit for playing 500 football than any other man alive, his record this year is better but I am not convinced.

That puts McCarthy knocking on the top five.

[Smidgeon]

Neal - big loss

Harrell - no loss since he has never contributed anyways

How are these different, besides on a potential basis? I know Neal did more this year, but Harrell's still done more overall. In fact, he lasted longer his rookie year.

I know people can get frustrated with him not being on the field, but let's not say he's never done anything.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it's more that we would have been foolish to count on Harrell, considering his injury history. If he had contributed, it would have been a bonus. On the other hand, I think they were counting on their second round pick (Neal). He looked like the real deal too.

[bobblehead]

Isn't it interesting that Parcells really didn't do much without Hoodie?

Was hoodie with the cowboys when Parcells took a perennial 5-11 team to the playoffs?

billy has gotten a bit worse each step as age has caught up with him. Very few coaches have the mental toughness to be successful in more than one place. I give hoodie some credit for that, but remember, he chose to stick with bill all those years with the Giants, pats and jets. Did he learn a lot, or carry Parcells?? chicken or egg?? I think they are both great coaches.

I also agree with Guiness as far as not wanting Parcells or any other retread Head Coach. The mental wear and tear is so bad that these guys get one good run at it in general. Its part of the reason I said I wasn't happy when MM got marries and knocked the girl up. too much to think about...incidently he followed it up with the 6-10 season if I recall.

[Smidgeon]

I think it's more that we would have been foolish to count on Harrell, considering his injury history. If he had contributed, it would have been a bonus. On the other hand, I think they were counting on their second round pick (Neal). He looked like the real deal too.

I don't quite disagree. Except the Packers kept him on final countdowns and therefore were counting on him to contribute. In fact, if I remember correctly, he was ahead of Neal on the DL rotation to start the year. That's why I think he was a bigger loss to the Packers. To the fan, many people can say they saw this coming because of his injury history, but an ACL isn't related to his back issues...

[mraynrand]

Was hoodie with the cowboys when Parcells took a perennial 5-11 team to the playoffs? I give hoodie some credit for that, but remember, he chose to stick with bill all those years with the Giants, pats and jets. Did he learn a lot, or carry Parcells?? chicken or egg?? I think they are both great coaches.

The Cowboys were perennial 5-11? Did Parcells win a playoff game as a Cowboy coach? even Stubby has won a playoff game...

Belichick was successful everywhere he went. If not for Modell's bizarre, self-centered departure, it's likely that he would have brought Cleveland a championship(s) as well.

I like this from Wiki: "His defensive game plan from the New York Giants' 20-19 upset of the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXV is now in the Pro Football Hall of Fame."

Belichick made Parcells. The evidence is overwhelming.

[Joemailman]

The Cowboys were perennial 5-11? Did Parcells win a playoff game as a Cowboy coach? even Stubby has won a playoff game...

Belichick was successful everywhere he went. If not for Modell's bizarre, self-centered departure, it's likely that he would have brought Cleveland a championship(s) as well.

I like this from Wiki: "His defensive game plan from the New York Giants' 20-19 upset of the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXV is now in the Pro Football Hall of Fame."

Belichick made Parcells. The evidence is overwhelming.

Well, the Cowboys were 5-11 in the 3 previous seasons before Parcells was hired. I agree with the rest of your post though. Parcells without Belichick = Ditka without Buddy Ryan

[Bretsky]

Let me just point out that this list leaves McCarthy presumably at 11th. Higher than the 14-18 rank estimated by someone earlier.

Also let's point out that Mike Smith hasn't won squat and has the healthiest team in the league. And he just lost at home to the Patriots on a questionable call in the 4th Quarter.

John Harbaugh has his name and a win in Foxboro over the Patriots in the payoffs to his credit plus a 9-7 season in his first year that would not qualify for the playoffs this year.

Wisenhunt had the end of last year plus the entire offseason to find a replacement for Warner. He waived his first choice and selected Derek Andersen as his second. That decision has sunk his season.

Tomlin is winning with his team approved assistants and defense (LeBeau and Arians) not his own staff. Its still Cowher's team except at WR.

Caldwell has done nothing of note. I might have taken Fisher at one point, but after this many years, he may be done. Rex Ryan has gotten more credit for playing 500 football than any other man alive, his record this year is better but I am not convinced.

That puts McCarthy knocking on the top five.

I would not ponder MM as one of the top 5 coaches in the NFL; I more than conceded at a later post he's above average and in the top 10. I would not take Mike Smith or Harbaugh off the list myself; both have well disciplined teams who seem to show consistency and improvement. If Caldwell has none nothing of note you can replace MM into that sentence as well and then you can take MM out of your top 5. Tomlin, seriously......he's well above MM in results so far and it's not my fault if MM has hired some shitty coaches while Tomlin's excel. Coaches deserve some credit or blame for the quality of assistants they fly with. Fischer was one I was debating some. I could certainly add a couple who I personally might like over MM but I don't think there is justification yet.
.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd put Tomlin higher, but I believe pbmax is correct. These weren't assistants that he hired. These were assistants that were forced upon him by the Steelers when he was hired.

Technically, McCarthy's team is more disciplined than Smith and Harbaugh's teams this year--despite the 18 penalty game.

[MJZiggy]

I would not ponder MM as one of the top 5 coaches in the NFL; I more than conceded at a later post he's above average and in the top 10. I would not take Mike Smith or Harbaugh off the list myself; both have well disciplined teams who seem to show consistency and improvement. If Caldwell has none nothing of note you can replace MM into that sentence as well and then you can take MM out of your top 5. Tomlin, seriously......he's well above MM in results so far and it's not my fault if MM has hired some shitty coaches while Tomlin's excel. Coaches deserve some credit or blame for the quality of assistants they fly with. Fischer was one I was debating some. I could certainly add a couple who I personally might like over MM but I don't think there is justification yet.
.

How can you say M3's done nothing of note when he took the team to a hair's breath of the SuperBowl. When did Caldwell make the title game?

[Joemailman]

Um... Pretty sure Caldwell took the Colts to the Super Bowl last year.

[bobblehead]

Well, the Cowboys were 5-11 in the 3 previous seasons before Parcells was hired. I agree with the rest of your post though. Parcells without Belichick = Ditka without Buddy Ryan

Wow, I am completely stunned. The coaching tree off of Parcells trumps the one off Bellichek. Off the top of my head I can't think of ANY coach that took 2 teams to the superbowl, and a third to a conference championship, and yet people want to give his assisstant the credit. As I said, he burned out a bit faster each step of the way, but he still made the playoffs with 4 seperate franchises who all were sucking tail when he took over. I guess its feasible that it was all the genius of his coordinator, but that just seems like quite a stretch....the least possible of all reasonable explanations.

To take it a step further, Rand says "Belichick was successful everywhere he went." True, but Parcells was his boss everywhere he went. I simply find it far more plausible that he learned from Parcells, not carried him. Not to take anything away from BB (except the cheating thing), he did learn and has been awesome.

[MJZiggy]

Um... Pretty sure Caldwell took the Colts to the Super Bowl last year.

Oops read Caldwell thought Carroll...But what was B talking about?

[Deputy Nutz]

I'll give it a stab at another date........but.......here are guys off the top of my head I'd take over Stubby

Some will be more proven and some less proven

From the AFC

Hoody Genius--Best of the Best
Mike Tomlin-----No Brainer
Jeff Fischer-----Perhaps I overrate this guy but I've always put him in the top tier of coaches
Jim Caldwell----Gotta give him his due for keeping the truck rolling
John Harbaugh--Excellent coach
Rey Ryan----------------debateable whether I'd take him or MM

From the NFC

Sean Payton--No Brainer
Mike Smith--No Brainer
Andy Reid--No Brainer
Ken Whisenhunt---Not sure about this one either


OK, so by my own admission since there are 32 teams I have to consider MM above average and perhaps a top 8-10 NFL Coach right now.
Certainly not a guy I'd ponder firing

For those who think less of him I'd challenge you to list the coaches you'd take over MM; when you look at the list there are a lot of really raw and unproven coaches out there

You forgot Wade Phillips.

Seriously, after the loss to the Lions I turned on the local sports talk and I had to laugh once again at the moronic Packer fan out there. At least every other call was for McCarthy to be fired. I then got a call from one of my buddies who absolutely hates the Packers and he asked me if there were in other coach in the North Divison that Packer fans would want over McCarthy? He said he wouldn't take any of them over McCarthy and I agreed at the complete insanity of Packer fan.

In reality I rank McCarthy in the top ten of coaches in the NFL. If I was pressed I would say that "The Hoodie", Jeff Fischer, Andy Reid and Sean Payton would be the four that I would take over McCarthy. Tomlin won a Super Bowl and he has done a good job continuing the success of the Pittsburgh coaching tree, but I don't know if I would trust him to take over a franchise that had to be rebuilt.

[swede]

I think the notion that McCarthy somehow chokes and doesn't know what to do late in the game is completely preposterous.

He is a risk-taker and sometimes goes for the homerun when his gut tells him its time. If his confidence in his players is justified, the call is forgotten. If the players don't execute, McCarthy sucks. The players in the game at the time haven't always executed, but that's a whole lot different than the characterization that he chokes up in crunch time.

The facts show that his team has been good at crunch time in certain years at and not good other years. Overall the results have been a bit below average (15-20 unless of course you're one who only counts the games the Packers lose this year by 4 or less). Doesn't mean he chokes by any means.

As the QB and surrounding cast (including the defense and ST) continues to mature, I suspect the results in close games will trend toward the mean again.

Hopefully, his stellar record in games decided by more than a score remains as well.

I give the guy his due in many ways, and I'm rooting for him to grow and get better. I hope your rosy take is the correct one.

[Bretsky]

How are these different, besides on a potential basis? I know Neal did more this year, but Harrell's still done more overall. In fact, he lasted longer his rookie year.

I know people can get frustrated with him not being on the field, but let's not say he's never done anything.

Honestly, in the limited time I saw Neal I was more impressed with him than Harrell in the decade or so he's been injured with us

Neal showed some real burst, some power to collapse a pocket and physically dominate an OL. He's also said to be a workout warrior in the weightroom and incredibly strong....which makes sense based on what he's shown. Overall from my perspective Justine has been a J.A.G. most of the time he's actually made it to the stripes

[Bretsky]

How can you say M3's done nothing of note when he took the team to a hair's breath of the SuperBowl. When did Caldwell make the title game?

You realy want me to answer this for you ???

[Smidgeon]

Honestly, in the limited time I saw Neal I was more impressed with him than Harrell in the decade or so he's been injured with us

Neal showed some real burst, some power to collapse a pocket and physically dominate an OL. He's also said to be a workout warrior in the weightroom and incredibly strong....which makes sense based on what he's shown. Overall from my perspective Justine has been a J.A.G. most of the time he's actually made it to the stripes

My impression was a little different. True, he offered absolutely nothing as a pass rusher, but I think he could have been an elite run blocker (a la Pickett). A couple years ago (I think it was), when I was learning specifically about the D-line, I read a post of Waldo's that convinced me that Harrell had what it took to be great as a run stuffer. Granted, that hasn't worked out at all, but I think it was there. But you're right that Neal "flashed" more. I personally think that's more because he was/is the better pass rusher.

[vince]

...your rosy take...

The facts show that his team has been good at crunch time in certain years at and not good other years. Overall the results have been a bit below average (15-20 unless of course you're one who only counts the games the Packers lose this year by 4 or less).

This is the NFL. There's pressure on coaches from the time they wake up until the time they go to bed every day of the year. During the game, there's pressure from the opening kickoff through the final seconds.

The idea that McCarthy tightens up or "can't stand the heat" at the end of the game or can't win the big game is just ridiculous in my opinion. How much experience do you suppose he has calling plays at the end of games? Did he have a boost of confidence in '06 and '07 in close games? Wouldn't such a defiency manifest itself in other ways too? How about when his response when the team lost to the winless Bucs last year? I'd say the heat was on then. Last week, the Giants came back quickly to tie the game after a Nelson turnover. Total change in momentum in a huge game. Why didn't he fold his tent then?

Perhaps any perceived problem has something to do with certain players or the quality of defense and/or special teams? Perhaps he's too confident in his kicker or QB or DB? Too much confidence is probably more likely than not enough. Perhaps his confidence is justified and they just are unlucky in some cases with balls doinking off uprights or balls being ever so slightly overthrown or stupid fumbles and penalties? Maybe wore-down offensive linemen have made mistakes at critical times on ocassion? Maybe McCarthy has expected his players to execute in situations where he shouldn't have?

He's not blameless by any means whenever the team loses, but I highly doubt any "problem" is due to the coach's nerves. Not sure that's necessarily a "rosy take" - just a realistic one based on an assessment of all the facts as opposed to an emotional reaction based on some of them IMO. Objectively speaking, 15-20 doesn't even signify a trend, much less portend a response of overly simplistic emotional causation to something that probably doesn't exist in the first place.

[Bretsky]

My impression was a little different. True, he offered absolutely nothing as a pass rusher, but I think he could have been an elite run blocker (a la Pickett). A couple years ago (I think it was), when I was learning specifically about the D-line, I read a post of Waldo's that convinced me that Harrell had what it took to be great as a run stuffer. Granted, that hasn't worked out at all, but I think it was there. But you're right that Neal "flashed" more. I personally think that's more because he was/is the better pass rusher.

Waldo was a great poster............one of the top I miss
But he as still wrong plenty of times as well..as most ar
He noted Jeremy Thompson was the idea fit for our OLB but he didn't make it
I think Harrell would have been ok as a run stuffer but I still feel I saw a lot more upside in his play than Harrell