ARE WE GIVING AROD A FREE PASS ??????????????????

[denverYooper]

It's funny that professional athletes themselves are willing to identify team mates and competitors who are more driven by the need/desire to win than the run of the mill professional, yet fans consider it hogwash? Maybe it's as much about confidence as anything, or the display of confidence regardless of their internal feelings. By confidence, I do not meen bravado.
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When used as a distinguishing factor in the discussion about "which of these HOF QBs" is better, it has very little relevance and often seems to come down to a combination of body language analysis and whether the end result of a team game is favorable or not. Every one of them is driven to be the best. There were a raftload of stories last year about what a workaholic Payton Manning was, leading extra sessions after practice every day, about how much he wanted to win. But that matters little now, because in the end of the season he ran into one of the best defenses in history. Now he's just a playoff choker.

I have a fair amount of experience with pro athletes. I swam for several years with many pro triathletes (Boulder is a huge training spot for many). One of whom was a 2-time IronMan champion. No one ever said he "wanted it more" because they all wanted to win all of the time. Some were really just better, more gifted, and yes, just found more favorable circumstances than others. Maybe it's different for the much more media-hyped team sports like pro football than individual endurance sports, but the context when I've noticed it used in those circles is as a coded way of calling someone an asshole in polite company.

So in short, I do think it's mostly rhetorical flourish in a soundbyte-driven sport based on post-hoc analysis.

[Pugger]

When used as a distinguishing factor in the discussion about "which of these HOF QBs" is better, it has very little relevance and often seems to come down to a combination of body language analysis and whether the end result of a team game is favorable or not. Every one of them is driven to be the best. There were a raftload of stories last year about what a workaholic Payton Manning was, leading extra sessions after practice every day, about how much he wanted to win. But that matters little now, because in the end of the season he ran into one of the best defenses in history. Now he's just a playoff choker.

I have a fair amount of experience with pro athletes. I swam for several years with many pro triathletes (Boulder is a huge training spot for many). One of whom was a 2-time IronMan champion. No one ever said he "wanted it more" because they all wanted to win all of the time. Some were really just better, more gifted, and yes, just found more favorable circumstances than others. Maybe it's different for the much more media-hyped team sports like pro football than individual endurance sports, but the context when I've noticed it used in those circles is as a coded way of calling someone an asshole in polite company.

So in short, I do think it's mostly rhetorical flourish in a soundbyte-driven sport based on post-hoc analysis.

P. Manning's playoff record is 9-11 so last year isn't the first time he's choked in the playoffs.

[Smidgeon]

P. Manning's playoff record is 9-11 so last year isn't the first time he's choked in the playoffs.

Nine times Peyton has been one and done in the playoffs. NINE TIMES!!!!

Perhaps the greatest regular season QB ever (5 MVPs) or just lucky in those great statistical years (i.e. no competition), but he either wilts in the postseason or he's perennially on weak teams that can't rise to the challenge against the best teams in the league.

The best postseason QB will always be a debate: Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, etc.

[pbmax]

Nine times Peyton has been one and done in the playoffs. NINE TIMES!!!!

Perhaps the greatest regular season QB ever (5 MVPs) or just lucky in those great statistical years (i.e. no competition), but he either wilts in the postseason or he's perennially on weak teams that can't rise to the challenge against the best teams in the league.

The best postseason QB will always be a debate: Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, etc.

It could be that the long arc of regular season performance points out that Manning is superior, but that Brady's success is indicative of being on a better team.

[woodbuck27]

It could be that the long arc of regular season performance points out that Manning is superior, but that Brady's success is indicative of being on a better team.

How could **Peyton Manning be considered as a superior QB to Tom Brady?

The NFL is ultimately about the top teams and playoffs; getting to and winning the Super Bowl.

In the Modern Era there are two obvious candidates for who's best. Joe Montana or Tom Brady and they never faced one another. On those two outstanding quarterbacks the debate may be focused.

Joe Montana with a 16-7 playoff record (0.696) and 4 Super Bowls that 'included back to back wins in 1988 and 1989'. Montana's four Super Bowl wins cover a 9 year span.

Tom Brady is just getting better and has a sensational 21 - 8 playoff record and also 4 Super Bowls (0.724) and that included back to back Super Bowl wins 2003 and 2004. The 21 wins in the playoffs is an NFL best. Brady's four Super Bowl wins cover an incredible 14 years and he wants more.

If your going to add one or two more to thicken the debate:

Bart Starr's playoff performance (9-1 and 2 Super Bowls) is obviously impressive.

People seem to somehow ignore Terry Bradshaw ...14 - 5 and 4 Super Bowls in just 6 seasons 1974-79.

Troy Aikman and a 11-4 playoff record and 3 Super Bowl rings in just four season.

How about John Elway and all his comeback wins and 14-7 in the playoff's and 2 Super Bowls?

** Peyton Manning is THE RECORD MAN. When it comes to clutch and performance in the real time. He's not going to be in the conversation.

[pbmax]

How could **Peyton Manning be considered as a superior QB to Tom Brady?

The NFL is ultimately about the top teams and playoffs; getting to and winning the Super Bowl.

In the Modern Era there are two obvious candidates for who's best. Joe Montana or Tom Brady and they never faced one another. On those two outstanding quarterbacks the debate may be focused.

Joe Montana with a 16-7 playoff record (0.696) and 4 Super Bowls that 'included back to back wins in 1988 and 1989'. Montana's four Super Bowl wins cover a 9 year span.

Tom Brady is just getting better and has a sensational 21 - 8 playoff record and also 4 Super Bowls (0.724) and that included back to back Super Bowl wins 2003 and 2004. The 21 wins in the playoffs is an NFL best. Brady's four Super Bowl wins cover an incredible 14 years and he wants more.

If your going to add one or two more to thicken the debate:

Bart Starr's playoff performance (9-1 and 2 Super Bowls) is obviously impressive.

People seem to somehow ignore Terry Bradshaw ...14 - 5 and 4 Super Bowls in just 6 seasons 1974-79.

Troy Aikman and a 11-4 playoff record and 3 Super Bowl rings in just four season.

How about John Elway and all his comeback wins and 14-7 in the playoff's and 2 Super Bowls?

** Peyton Manning is THE RECORD MAN. When it comes to clutch and performance in the real time. He's not going to be in the conversation.

All small sample sizes. And I think indicative of better teams having more success in the post-season. Much easier for the better QB with the weaker team to win in the regular season.

Now how this applies to the Packers is the interesting question. Prior to last year's 49er playoff game, it seemed to come down to terrible defense coupled with a terrible injury plague. The offense was not as prolific as it was facing much better Defenses, but it produced.

Last year though the D was playing better than the O versus the 49ers. However, the Packers struggle versus that D and it didn't help that Rodgers had just returned from injury.

This year would have been the best test of the team since 2011, as they shored up the defense and everyone was healthy. Except for the QB.

[th87]

I feel clutchness is a thing. I know it's dismissed as a sports cliche, but why? Different people have different abilities to handle stress. Some people panic, some people are in the middle, and some people don't care at all. I don't really think anyone RAISES their level of play, but when they stay consistent, while everyone around them folds, it may seem like they raised their level of play.

With Rodgers, early in his career, I don't think he handled stress as well as he does now. Yes, in 2008, Rodgers did have those go-ahead scores, only to have the defense give up another, putting him in a "now or never" situation. I don't think he did as well with those now or never situations, where if we don't score now, we lose. It's natural for a young quarterback replacing a legend. Over time, he's gotten a lot better at this, delivering on these opportunities.

Maybe there's still a residue of this type of thing in the playoffs, unless he goes "unconscious". It seemed this was happening in the second half of the Cowboys game, and most notably against Atlanta in 2010. Otherwise, he's still very good in the playoffs, but it appears to me that he sometimes misses throws that he normally makes easily, and then gets mad at himself or looks skyward. This too is understandable - he's an emotional dude and is smart enough to know what's at stake, and actually care.

Perhaps as his career progresses, he'll get better at blocking out the emotions of the moment and do a better job of getting into Flow, when the playoffs roll around. Again, this is not to say he's not already awesome. Just an improvement theory.

Flow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

[pbmax]

Perhaps as his career progresses, he'll get better at blocking out the emotions of the moment and do a better job of getting into Flow, when the playoffs roll around. Again, this is not to say he's not already awesome. Just an improvement theory.

Flow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

I'll buy all this mumbo jumbo mind-reading if you can successfully explain how the expert at stress handling Tom Brady suddenly was a puddle of mental goo in two Super Bowls with the Giants D.

[th87]

I'll buy all this mumbo jumbo mind-reading if you can successfully explain how the expert at stress handling Tom Brady suddenly was a puddle of mental goo in two Super Bowls with the Giants D.

My previous post discusses how Brady folds like a cheap tent if he takes hits and has to move around. His second interception the other day occurred right after he took a big hit and started to get happy feet (believe it or not, I predicted it coming).

In any case, nobody is perfect at this.