The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[Carolina_Packer]

If this keeps up...which unfortunately it probably will...Capers need to be shown the door. There is talent on the defensive side of the ball but its not setup to succeed. Which could very well cost this team another shot at the SB this year.

Yeah Freak Out, I've had that thought for a while. I was surprised that Capers wasn't shown the door after last season. What was it that was showing MM that things were going to be different this year? So, now the response from MM might be that they are taking some time to get used to a different scheme. (Mostly) same players, now playing in a different wrinkle of 3-4. Similar results. What is the players culpability? How would another DC make them tackle better, take better angles to plays, diagnose better, not leave their gap responsibility better, get off blocks and win their one on one battles better? Don't get me wrong, Capers still needs to go. He's ultimately responsible. These same players, another DC...who knows?

[wist43]

That's more of an amoeba look... don't know what Ryan's problems are - one thing I know for sure, Dom Capers can't care Rob Ryan's jock.

Capers couldn't care less about the middle of the field, and he's proven that for several years running. Whether it is stopping the run up the middle, or making receivers pay over the middle - Capers simply doesn't think that is real estate worth contesting. There is definitely an undeniable lack of execution/adjustments, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to stop the run. What did he do in the Jets game that finally slowed them down? We all agree that we don't like what we are seeing, but Capers doesn't want to stop the run. Don't buy that.

The Bears smashed us over and over again up the middle and over the middle... that's all on Capers. He simply doesn't belong in the league anymore - hopefully TT will get that figured out by years end. There's no denying what we all saw with our own eyes, over and over. Again, I assert, is this just schematic? Could another DC take the same set of guys and mold them into a competitive defense? Not saying keep Capers...I'm saying we might need more help. I believe talent can overcome scheme because good football players have talent that shows out

We win a game b/c of our offense, and suddenly you guys think we have a defense?? lol... More good news - we get to play the anemic Vikings on Thursday... On our way to the SB again are we?? You guys are such bandwagon jumpers - both on and off. You chastise, but do you seriously think there are people on this forum who would defend that effort on run defense? I'm glad the offense got up big and had a cushion, but that is nothing to rely on if you are the defense. We don't like it either, Wist.

Capers most likely won't be fired in-season; that doesn't seem like their style, and they'd have to have a plan for succession, They'll just have to make whatever adjustments they can, and make the best of this season. I hope they get it together.

There has been nonstop support for Capers schemes on this board. I criticize the 2-4, and with few exceptions, everyone on this board freaks out and breathlessly defend it - afterall, how can you defend the TE, or the RB out of the backfield, or the 3rd WR??

We get gashed in the run game - but oh no!! we must, we must continue to run the 2-4 b/c it is the only sensible option, right??

It isn't Capers, it's the players, right??

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Most Packerrats spent most of the offseason being critical of Capers, but at the same time defending the 2-4.

Now Capers comes out with a different scheme - but he's still fundamentally flawed in the same ways - the most obvious being that he doesn't defend the middle of the field, and he doesn't care about winning the LOS.

Cutler fumbles the snap, and roots around on the ground for a couple of seconds - stands up, and realizes there isn't a defender in front of him for 20 yds, and he rumbles right up the middle for 16 yds on 4th and 1?? WTF is wrong with that picture??

Capers biggest problem is that he thinks every single stinking snap is a pass; yes, it is a passing league by and large, but if you don't defend the run at all, your opponent doesn't need to pass.

We gave up another 235 yds rushing again yesterday. Capers is a complete disaster - there's just no getting around it.

[Zool]

There has been nonstop support for Capers schemes on this board.

Ahh, you equate 1-2 people discussing things with the entire board. I'm really starting to get your rants lately. Maybe I'm going crazy too?

[Rutnstrut]

Ahh, you equate 1-2 people discussing things with the entire board. I'm really starting to get your rants lately. Maybe I'm going crazy too?

He's right though, the general consensus of the Kool-aid crowd is that no other aspect of the game matters much as long as Rodgers plays well.

[wist43]

Ahh, you equate 1-2 people discussing things with the entire board. I'm really starting to get your rants lately. Maybe I'm going crazy too?

As Bruce Willis said in Die Hard, "Welcome to the party pal... "

And yes, I'm sure your name has been added to the "undesireables" list... off to reeducation for us soon enough

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As for the X's and O's of football... it is like building a house - you have to have a solid foundation, and what crazy shit you do after that is up to you. If you don't have a solid foundation, however, the building will collapse. Frank Lloyd Wright used to build some of the nuttiest looking shit imaginable, but what he built was stable and solidly founded. The same applies to just about any systemic platform.

What Capers does is fundamentally unsound, b/c if you don't control the LOS, and you're weak up the middle - you can't win consistently. Maybe your team has enough talent to cover up for the flawed philosophical approach against less talented teams; but, against a tough opponent who takes those fundamentals seriously - you're going to get slapped around, and you're more than likely going to lose; and that is what we have been witness to for the past 3-4 years.

At this early stage of the season, it looks like the teams to beat in the NFC are Seattle, Dallas, Detroit, and maybe Arizona... all of those teams are tougher and more physical than we are. Philly isn't bad - but I'm not sold on Foles.

Maybe SF, NO, and Carolina rebound, I don't know... but the NFC isn't looking like the juggernaut we all thought it would be. And don't forget the Giants - they are suddenly showing signs of life again - a team that has been slow to round into form in the past, and a team that has whipped our asses in the trenches twice on their way to winning Superbowls.

Unless MM and Capers take their blinders off and adopt a tougher, more physical mindset and approach - we're not going anywhere this year.

[Rutnstrut]

TT, MM, and capers do not seem to care about tougher and more physical. In fact imo this defense looks to be getting softer and more pussy like.

[denverYooper]

31 brought it up a while back, but the Packers are built to pass and get after the passer. They rely on Rodgers and the passing game to pressure the opponent to keep up and start making mistakes. That's exactly what happened yesterday, and it's how the Packers want to do business. Ideally, sure, they'd love to be great running/stopping the run, but if they can only get to do one thing well on defense, it might as well be stopping the pass.

I know the D looks shitty against the run, but they're currently 6th in PRA (passer rating against) at 78.9 and have faced some decent passing offenses. The last few years, this has been ~100 and that has killed them more than anything. At least they're getting some pressure and some takeaways this year.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Just to add some fun to the conversation:

Packers defense has allowed 37 pts in the last 11 quarters. That's about 14 pts/game at that pace. Just sayin'.

This from a guy who still wants Capers fired.

[deake]

My question would be, why the different results between the Lion and Bear games? The Lions have a decent offense and yet our defense did well in that game. Everyone was looking for a shootout and it didn't happen, why? No one expected us to shut down the Lions but we did, why? To my untrained eye the Pack seemed to line up the same for both games so that would rule out the scheme.

[Carolina_Packer]

My question would be, why the different results between the Lion and Bear games? The Lions have a decent offense and yet our defense did well in that game. Everyone was looking for a shootout and it didn't happen, why? No one expected us to shut down the Lions but we did, why? To my untrained eye the Pack seemed to line up the same for both games so that would rule out the scheme.

A very good point. It's a game to game league I guess. It's like a hitter in baseball. If you take the same approach against all pitchers you face, you're probably not going to do well. You have to make adjustments in order to adapt and keep up.

My question was about the Jets game. They get gashed in the Jets game and then clearly figure something out and shut them down. Yesterday, they had no answer for the Bears run game.

Regarding what Denver said, it would make no sense to concede the run. How can you ever hope to have a pass rush when you are giving up 2nd or 3rd and short all the time? I hope they are looking at all options at this point to get that thing fixed. Otherwise, come playoffs time, should that happen, they would be ripe for a team to play them like the Giants did in 2011 where they can rush with 4 and drop 7.

[denverYooper]

A very good point. It's a game to game league I guess. It's like a hitter in baseball. If you take the same approach against all pitchers you face, you're probably not going to do well. You have to make adjustments in order to adapt and keep up.

My question was about the Jets game. They get gashed in the Jets game and then clearly figure something out and shut them down. Yesterday, they had no answer for the Bears run game.

Regarding what Denver said, it would make no sense to concede the run. How can you ever hope to have a pass rush when you are giving up 2nd or 3rd and short all the time? I hope they are looking at all options at this point to get that thing fixed. Otherwise, come playoffs time, should that happen, they would be ripe for a team to play them like the Giants did in 2011 where they can rush with 4 and drop 7.

They're not exactly conceding the run, but they're thinking pass first all day long. The offense stalled because of that front 4, but the Giants beat the pants off of the Packers through the air and made the Packers try to keep up.

[red]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

[Bretsky]

packer post game was noting how poor the ilb play is and most of the solid defenses in the nfl have one dominant ilb. they keep noting hawk is ..........ok........but went on to list the rest and noted they are all nothing better then 2nd stringers........and that included just a jag jones

[Bretsky]

they actually felt this year's ilb core were just as bad as the safeties last year

[denverYooper]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

It's been excruciating watching teams chip away at the middle of the field, but the biggest problem in the great safety dearth between Collins and HHCD has been the atrocious play on deep passes. Early signs point to that being less of a problem this year. Actually, Waldo before he had a kid and checked out had a good theory about failure at all 3 levels up the middle. GB's back line looks like it's been solidified.

As for the LBs and DL.... well, yeah, those need some shoring up yet.

[Carolina_Packer]

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/p...defense-092914

What do you make of McCarthy's quotes from this article? Obviously, he's not going throw people under the bus in the media. He can't totally deny it and say it's great, but he also can't be too brutally honest either. I hope he's right that what they are seeing is correctable. Why is it so hard to get this thing right? I wonder if they will sell out a bit more to stop the run against MN. Hopefully they will force Ponder to throw on Thursday.

[3irty1]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

[wist43]

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Couldn't disagree more - it's scheme much more than talent.

You can't line up with 4 guys in the box and expect to stop the run - and that should be the end of that portion of the debate.

You can't line up with 6 guys in your "front seven", and expect to consistently stop the run.

You can't always play nickel against 3 wides - especially when the down distance is 3rd or 4th and short. All the OC need do is throw 3 wides out there, and he knows Capers will abandon the middle of the field. Result?? Easy 1st down.

You can't play man 24/7 - especially underneath. It makes it far to easy for OC's to create huge voids underneath and in the middle. Matchup zones have evolved tremendously in the past decade or so... the Packers haven't noticed, but much of the rest of the league manages.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

Yes, we lost talent - and there is to be expected a dropoff and transition. But what Capers has done has made everything worse. He has in no way tailored a scheme and gameplans according to the talent TT has given him. TT brought in a lot of good DL talent, and Capers proceeded to park those guys on the bench.

TT did nothing to improve our ILB situation, yet Capers schemed to ensure that those guys were on the field 24/7 - and the focal point of the defense.

Capers turned a difficult situation into a disaster - yes, we have less talent than the SB year, but Capers has made everything worse - much worse.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

Rule changes have opened up the middle a bit more. What with "hitting a defenseless player", and the chuck rule... but that does not account for Green Bay's completely abandoning the middle of the field.

The rules do not say, "... the offensive player must be uncovered, and be allowed to make the catch".

The mess in the secondary seems to be somewhat less of a mess - but it is still a mess. That's coaching.

If a player doesn't know where he is supposed to be?? That's coaching.

As often as not, our defense looks like the keystone cops... some of the mess seems to have been cleaned up - but there is no doubt that the Packers are fielding one of the worst defenses in the league - and 95% of what is wrong can be summed up in one word - dunderdummy.

[Fritz]

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/p...defense-092914

What do you make of McCarthy's quotes from this article? Obviously, he's not going throw people under the bus in the media. He can't totally deny it and say it's great, but he also can't be too brutally honest either. I hope he's right that what they are seeing is correctable. Why is it so hard to get this thing right? I wonder if they will sell out a bit more to stop the run against MN. Hopefully they will force Ponder to throw on Thursday.

This gets to something I've been pondering lately: first, why do MM's teams start out so slowly, and secondly, what's up with - for, I think, the third week in a row - MM saying that the defense was surprised at some of the stuff other teams threw at them.

First, why the slow starts? I don't read much from other coaches saying that it's okay, it's still early, we're ironing out the bugs (which is the sense I get from MM). I remember hearing interviews with Joe Gibbs when I lived in Maryland, and he always, always emphasized the importance of winning the first game. I know it's a marathon and all, but it's as if MM expects his team to not really have their shit together in the first quarter of the season. I'm sure he wants to win, but does he see the beginning of the season as part of the development of the team, more than other coaches do?

Secondly, what does it say that MM seems to have been surprised at the stuff other offenses are throwing at them? He said this after the Seattle game, and he said it again after the Bear game. Unscouted looks, tried some things we haven't seen - I really don't hear much from other coaches along this line. WTF is going on with this?

[denverYooper]

This gets to something I've been pondering lately: first, why do MM's teams start out so slowly, and secondly, what's up with - for, I think, the third week in a row - MM saying that the defense was surprised at some of the stuff other teams threw at them.

First, why the slow starts? I don't read much from other coaches saying that it's okay, it's still early, we're ironing out the bugs (which is the sense I get from MM). I remember hearing interviews with Joe Gibbs when I lived in Maryland, and he always, always emphasized the importance of winning the first game. I know it's a marathon and all, but it's as if MM expects his team to not really have their shit together in the first quarter of the season. I'm sure he wants to win, but does he see the beginning of the season as part of the development of the team, more than other coaches do?

Secondly, what does it say that MM seems to have been surprised at the stuff other offenses are throwing at them? He said this after the Seattle game, and he said it again after the Bear game. Unscouted looks, tried some things we haven't seen - I really don't hear much from other coaches along this line. WTF is going on with this?

Other coaches have to resort to trickery. The Packers just line up and beat you (or 2 teams, anyhow...).