How Voters Think

[hoosier]

Even though she knew it was all based on half truths and lies.
So you believe that the 77 Senators who voted to authorize did so knowing the evidence was based on half truths & lies.
I believe you've accepted an irrational argument as a salve to your anger.

I'm not sure what they knew or didn't know. But I am convinced that many of them voted the way they did because of real or perceived pressure, and for fear of looking weak in a time of national crisis, and not because they felt it was right in their heart of hearts. Admittedly that's speculation on my part. But if they did truly believe Bush's evidence (which, as we know now, was based on cherry-picking from a mishmash of intelligence that, when viewed all together, was very ambiguous about existence of WMDs), then I'd say they were dupes.

Remember, just because 77 out of 100 US Senators vote a certain way doesn't necessarily mean they're not lemmings. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It occurs to me that the Wisconsin Primary is just a little over a week away. I've got to start thinking about who I'm gonna vote for. Any suggestions?

[MJZiggy]

The only thing they give back is bullets to the chest (4 good friends of mine have had guns held to their heads outside their house at market) and annoying me by begging for cash every night in the summer.

Plus, Fairtax would force the illegal immigrants to pay taxes.

Because you happen to know someone who encountered a violent situation you think that all impoverished people who need financial assistance are violent? Quite a jump there. And why are you making the assumption that because people live in a ghetto that they are necessarily taking handouts from the government? Maybe they scrimped and saved from the minimum wage they work their asses off for just to get the rims they always wanted. Maybe those designer duds are second hand. And I thought Wisconsin had a system in place where you don't get the handout unless you're either working on getting educated or getting employed...? That was the big deal when I left.

And do you really think that if you eliminate those programs designed to assist and educate the people who hang out on the streetcorners that they're what, going to go away and stop annoying you? What precisely do you think they're going to do instead? There will be more of them because if they can't get the "handouts" that they're living their lives for, even more of them will be forced to beg to survive and annoy you. Pretty easy position for a rich white kid to have.

[Partial]

I find that the vast majority of these people are thugs. Sure, a few middle classes might get helped. But it is mostly thuggish ruggish peeps.

[Partial]

Fair Tax will make people sink or swim on their own. That's the way it should be.

[MJZiggy]

I find that the vast majority of these people are thugs. Sure, a few middle classes might get helped. But it is mostly thuggish ruggish peeps.

Are those thuggish roguish peeps on welfare? Cause if they're getting money any other way besides welfare, then cutting welfare does absolutely no good. And most middle class people are not on government assistance. You seem a little biased against people who have it worse than you.

[Scott Campbell]

It occurs to me that the Wisconsin Primary is just a little over a week away. I've got to start thinking about who I'm gonna vote for. Any suggestions?



Thought you were already voting for Billary.

[The Leaper]

just saw a convincing argument on Charlie Rose show that the Dems are headed for brokered convention. Its unlikely either candidate can pull ahead.

Yuk! Worst possible result.

It's almost a guarantee Huck.

The way the Dems do their primaries, it basically guarantees a brokered convention if you have two very popular strong candidates...because unless one candidate wins more than 60% of the popular vote (which isn't happening often...more 45-55 splits), the delegates all get split pretty evenly regardless.

Even if someone does win the nomination before the convention for the Dems, it won't come until one of the very last primaries...which will still be a large disadvantage now that the GOP nomination is locked up for McCain.

[Partial]

I find that the vast majority of these people are thugs. Sure, a few middle classes might get helped. But it is mostly thuggish ruggish peeps.

Are those thuggish roguish peeps on welfare? Cause if they're getting money any other way besides welfare, then cutting welfare does absolutely no good. And most middle class people are not on government assistance. You seem a little biased against people who have it worse than you.

People that are working hard to make it I am ok with. The thus of Milwaukee I am not. We pay all this tax money and for what? Our streets aren't plowed, its not safe to walk around after 9pm even in a group, your house gets broken into, you get hit up daily by the homeless for money, etc.

These poor people and the illegal don't pay any taxes yet they're in financial trouble because they live outside their means.

[Partial]

Ron Paul

[The Leaper]

Fair Tax will make people sink or swim on their own. That's the way it should be.

I don't like the Fair Tax notion. A sales tax is a regressive tax, even if you attempt to take staples out of the equation...it hurts lower income people more than higher income people.

I prefer a graduated Flat Tax...eliminate most deductions and have a one page tax return where your tax rate is based on your total income.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It occurs to me that the Wisconsin Primary is just a little over a week away. I've got to start thinking about who I'm gonna vote for. Any suggestions?
Thought you were already voting for Billary.

yes, I'm leaning slightly towards Clinton, I'm impressed that she was a lesbian during her Wesleyan University days. But I want to wait to hear what kind of tax cut Ron Paul will promise me before I decide for sure.

[MJZiggy]

Fair Tax will make people sink or swim on their own. That's the way it should be.

I don't like the Fair Tax notion. A sales tax is a regressive tax, even if you attempt to take staples out of the equation...it hurts lower income people more than higher income people.

I prefer a graduated Flat Tax...eliminate most deductions and have a one page tax return where your tax rate is based on your total income.

I agree. And P, right now it's easier for some to swim than others. You feel this way because you have a sturdy life preserver. And if you feel that your streets aren't getting plowed, that's the fault of the city, not it's impoverished people. Those streets would need plowing and the houses would need sewer whether poor people lived there or rich ones--or they stood vacant and ended up being used as crack houses. The streets still have to get plowed, but I bet your streets get plowed before theirs do.

[Freak Out]

I found this pretty funny.....

WASHINGTON — President Bush, rallying conservatives for a battle against Democratic presidential hopefuls Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama, says "prosperity and peace" are at stake in the upcoming election for his successor.

"We have had good debates and soon we will have a nominee who will carry the conservative banner into this election and beyond," Bush said in prepared remarks of a speech he was to give Friday to the Conservative Political Action Conference.

"Prosperity and peace are in the balance," the president said in speech excerpts the White House released on Thursday night. "So with confidence in our vision and faith in our values, let us go forward ... fight for victory ... and keep the White House in 2008."

Bush is not expected to mention by name John McCain, who almost surely will be the GOP's presidential nominee. Conservatives are resigned to seeing McCain lead the Republican ticket, but the Arizona senator has a long history of disputes over economic and social issues with the party's right flank.

It remains unclear whether conservative voters will stay at home in November, or try to influence McCain's positions _ and his choice of a running mate. In his own defense, McCain says he is a true conservative and has lined up endorsements of many conservative political leaders.

After Republican Mitt Romney announced on Thursday that he was suspending his campaign, Bush had to pencil in minor changes to his speech, making it more forward-looking to the November election. Still, the White House says it's not time yet for Bush to formally weigh in on the election.

Instead, he is using his speech to the conservative gathering as a venue for comparing and contrasting Republican philosophies with those of GOP critics.

He defended his record on the economy, saying tax cuts contributed to a record 52 months of job creation, which just ended. Bush backed his decision to twice veto legislation that would have paved the way for taxpayer-funded embryo research, and lauded medical advances in stem cell research that would yield good results without destroying embryos.

On Iraq, the president defended his decision to send thousands more U.S. troops into Iraq.

"Our critics had a different view," he said. "They looked at rising violence in Iraq and declared the war was lost. Some concluded the surge had failed before it had even fully begun. ... We stood our ground and we are seeing the results. ... The progress in Iraq is fragile and there are tough days ahead, yet even the enemy recognizes that they are on the wrong side of events."

Bush said his administration stayed on the offense against extremists in Afghanistan because it recognized that the threat was not just a matter of law enforcement. "One commentator said most Afghans would oppose an American invasion and fight the foreign occupiers," Bush said.

Instead, Bush said the hardline Taliban regime was ousted, the Afghan people elected a new president and parliament, roads and hospitals are being built, and while Afghanistan has a long recovery ahead, the United States, NATO and other allies are working to secure the country.

Last year was the bloodiest year in Afghanistan since the U.S.-led toppling of the Taliban in 2001.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates has ordered 2,200 Marines to go to southern Afghanistan this spring. And on Thursday in the Afghan capital of Kabul, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her British counterpart, Foreign Secretary David Miliband, made a renewed push to portray the war as winnable and worthy of international support despite a so-far-unsuccessful struggle to get more allies to commit frontline forces.

[MJZiggy]

Damn that's the funniest thing I've read all week! Thanks for a good one.

[MadScientist]

How can anyone support the democratic candidates?!?

I simply do not understand it. I'm all for equality to all, but I am NOT all for over taxation and hand outs. That's why libertarian candidates like Dr. Paul are appealing to me.

7+ years of corrupt, criminal republican rule should be enough for anyone with any sense whatsoever. As unimpressed as I am with Billary, I would vote for her in a heartbeat over any repub scum, who would continue the process of selling out my kids future to China and Saudi Arabia so that they and their friends can be even richer. If you love the USA you can't vote republican.


Personally, I am all for FairTax. It would force people to live within their means.
FairTax = tax hike for the middle class so the fucking rich pay even less. What is fair about that? Also if you think the economy is bad now, that tax plan will throw us into a depression. This whole economy is driven by middle class spending (and government spending). When you make everything cost 30% more people won't be able to buy as much and will have a massive disincentive to spend. A whole lot of businesses will go under because of it (lots of mall stores, swimming schools, dance studios, etc.). If you support this idiotic tax proposal, you must be very rich or clueless.

[Scott Campbell]

FairTax = tax hike for the middle class so the fucking rich pay even less. What is fair about that?


I love this kind of ridiculous propaganda. If you think that somebody making $1M a year pays less taxes than somebody making $30K a year, you are certifiable. Rich people pay far more in taxes than the poor and middle class - in absolute dollars per taxpayer. And they spend more and contribute more to the economy too. They often provide employment opportunities for poor and middle class people. And they are typically less of a burden on government social programs. So let's face it, they are a more valuable economic asset to our country.

Yet some communist thinking small minded individuals who can't stand the idea of everyone paying their own fair share would just as soon penalize the success of others than have to pry loose a nickel out of their own pocket. They bitch and whine about the wealthy as if anyone who has ever achieved some measure of success must have screwed over some poor slobs to get there. To these people, I suggest they quit wasting their energy on whining and begging and trying to weasel away other peoples money, and go out and earn their own money the old fashioned way. We didn't become the greatest country on the face of the earth by penalizing those who succeed.

[Partial]

Fair Tax will make people sink or swim on their own. That's the way it should be.

I don't like the Fair Tax notion. A sales tax is a regressive tax, even if you attempt to take staples out of the equation...it hurts lower income people more than higher income people.

I prefer a graduated Flat Tax...eliminate most deductions and have a one page tax return where your tax rate is based on your total income.

You get 24k to spend annually tax free. Fair Tax is great as it forces the poor to live within their means, and also doesn't punish the upper middle class who are typically small spenders yet hit with most of the tax burden.

[Partial]

Fair Tax will make people sink or swim on their own. That's the way it should be.

I don't like the Fair Tax notion. A sales tax is a regressive tax, even if you attempt to take staples out of the equation...it hurts lower income people more than higher income people.

I prefer a graduated Flat Tax...eliminate most deductions and have a one page tax return where your tax rate is based on your total income.

I agree. And P, right now it's easier for some to swim than others. You feel this way because you have a sturdy life preserver. And if you feel that your streets aren't getting plowed, that's the fault of the city, not it's impoverished people. Those streets would need plowing and the houses would need sewer whether poor people lived there or rich ones--or they stood vacant and ended up being used as crack houses. The streets still have to get plowed, but I bet your streets get plowed before theirs do.

Thats why fair tax is great. 24k is easily enough to live no tax free.

[Partial]

How can anyone support the democratic candidates?!?

I simply do not understand it. I'm all for equality to all, but I am NOT all for over taxation and hand outs. That's why libertarian candidates like Dr. Paul are appealing to me.

7+ years of corrupt, criminal republican rule should be enough for anyone with any sense whatsoever. As unimpressed as I am with Billary, I would vote for her in a heartbeat over any repub scum, who would continue the process of selling out my kids future to China and Saudi Arabia so that they and their friends can be even richer. If you love the USA you can't vote republican.


Personally, I am all for FairTax. It would force people to live within their means.
FairTax = tax hike for the middle class so the fucking rich pay even less. What is fair about that? Also if you think the economy is bad now, that tax plan will throw us into a depression. This whole economy is driven by middle class spending (and government spending). When you make everything cost 30% more people won't be able to buy as much and will have a massive disincentive to spend. A whole lot of businesses will go under because of it (lots of mall stores, swimming schools, dance studios, etc.). If you support this idiotic tax proposal, you must be very rich or clueless.

Not true. How is that true? Most of what the middle class spend is completely tax free. It is a way to punish those who frivolously spend money

[MJZiggy]

So you think all it takes to raise a family is food, huh? All the rest is frivolous.

[Freak Out]

[quote=MJZiggy]

Thats why fair tax is great. 24k is easily enough to live no tax free.

??? WTF are you smoking?

[GoPackGo]

[quote=MJZiggy]

Thats why fair tax is great. 24k is easily enough to live no tax free.

??? WTF are you smoking?

Partial doesn't know shit about anything he can't google.

[Freak Out]

[quote=MJZiggy]

Thats why fair tax is great. 24k is easily enough to live no tax free.

??? WTF are you smoking?

Partial doesn't know shit about anything he can't google.

Yes he does.....but he is still young and really doesn't know just yet how tough it can be. 24 grand is shit in this day and age unless your subsistence hunting or farming.

[Partial]

24k tax free? That is about 35k taxed. That is a piece of cake to live on. Maybe not for a family, but for a single person easily. Plenty of people get by on 35k. After all, the average american family makes 42k.

That is just what isn't sales taxed. You might have to get taxed some.

We're not talking xboxs and big screens and blackberries. We're talking the essentials to get by. That's what the 24k(35k-40k in current us dollars) is for.

[Partial]

You guys are fucking nuts. My sister started at a job at 35k and paid off an apartment and had ample money left over to spare. She makes a ton more money now but she bought a car, paid off a condo, and went out and partied like a 20 something should on 35k.

Laughable.

[MJZiggy]

Was she trying to raise kids on that 35K?

[Freak Out]

Where does she live? Laughable is right. There are loads of things that come into play here man.

[Partial]

She lives in the land of taxes Milwaukee. No, she isn't raising kids. That's why you have a husband or you work hard. How many people who have kids honestly don't make 40-50 grand? If you work hard, its pretty tough not to.

As I was saying, it is irrelevant how much money you have or make. Your money isn't taxed until you spend over 24k. Interest on homes in not taxed, either.

It might throw the retail world into a bit of a funk for a brief period of time, but not really because for most expenses it will be completely devoid of tax. Not only that, but prices will be driven down due to the lack of taxes on business purchases. I don't have exact figures but I have read many compelling arguments where your middle class family ends up saving money.

I really don't think much will change beyond everyone will be forced to take some more personal responsibility. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to save money and gain 10% on it annually than to spend it when there is a 30% tax.

One of the big things that would occur is it will help the housing market by stop having companies build so many new houses as a used house purchase would not be taxed.

It has been heavily researched by economists and by all accounts there studies have shown it to have a positive effect.

[MJZiggy]

She lives in the land of taxes Milwaukee. No, she isn't raising kids. That's why you have a husband or you work hard. How many people who have kids honestly don't make 40-50 grand? If you work hard, its pretty tough not to.



You don't seriously believe that, do you? You think the grocery store checkers who stands there working their asses off all day are making 50 grand, huh? You think that'll buy them a nice condo in, say, San Francisco? How 'bout Boston?

[Partial]

No, I don't think a grocery store checker is an acceptable job if you're trying to raise a family by yourself. If you strive to be only a grocery store clerk, than maybe kids aren't for you.

[MJZiggy]

Accidents happen, hon and there's a lot of folks out there that work their tails of for plenty of other minimum wage (or just above) jobs. And they don't have the educational opportunities you did so how the hell are they supposed to survive and live this fanciful life you describe. Hell I HAVE a college education and work experience and I'm having a hard enough time trying to find a job. Imagine for a moment what it's like for some kid born into poverty with uneducated parents. How are they supposed to make your 50K that they should get just for aspiring to it?

[Partial]

If they do well in school, they'll get a scholarship and go to college on uncle sam. I don't believe for a second the opportunity is not there for anyone. It is people's refusal to go out there and grab it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

FairTax = tax hike for the middle class so the fucking rich pay even less. What is fair about that?
I love this kind of ridiculous propaganda.

On the face of it, MadScientist is right. Just a FairTax (which I take to be like a national sales tax) is going to be very regressive. Less wealthy people have to spend a higher percentage on taxable goods. But the FairTax proposals are not so simple, they have some sort of compensation for poorer people. I am open minded to switching to a FairTax.

Easy with the propoganda word, you also stray into that territory.


If you think that somebody making $1M a year pays less taxes than somebody making $30K a year, you are certifiable. Rich people pay far more in taxes than the poor and middle class - in absolute dollars per taxpayer.

talking about absolute dollars is pretty silly.
you can't compare a hundred dollars of taxes paid by a janitor with the burden of $100 on an investment banker.
Don't expect too many people to follow you down the absolute dollar argument.


And they spend more and contribute more to the economy too. They often provide employment opportunities for poor and middle class people. And they are typically less of a burden on government social programs. So let's face it, they are a more valuable economic asset to our country.

ya, true enough


Yet some communist thinking small minded individuals who can't stand the idea of everyone paying their own fair share would just as soon penalize the success of others than have to pry loose a nickel out of their own pocket. They bitch and whine about the wealthy as if anyone who has ever achieved some measure of success must have screwed over some poor slobs to get there. To these people, I suggest they quit wasting their energy on whining and begging and trying to weasel away other peoples money, and go out and earn their own money the old fashioned way. We didn't become the greatest country on the face of the earth by penalizing those who succeed.

You realize that there are a lot of rich democrats, right? A lot of very wealthy people are on the liberal side of the party.

I think you and Rush Limbaugh are exaggerating by a factor of 100 the degree to which liberalism is driven by class envy.

You can't get anywhere talking about these issues in the sort of angry, defensive, accusatory tones that you use. I have more to say but I have to take a dump.

[Scott Campbell]

Zig,

First off, somebody is going to be very lucky to get you as an employee.

I have nothing against grocery store checkers. I would suggest that the vast majority of them are either there by choice, or because of choices they've made in their own lives. For many, they may not be achieving their full economic potential. We shouldn't be holding the government and taxpayers accountable for peoples poor choices. If poverty becomes too easy because of government handouts, more will choose it as the path of least resistance.

[Scott Campbell]

Talking about absolute dollars is pretty silly.
you can't compare a hundred dollars of taxes paid by a janitor with the burden of $100 on an investment banker.
Don't expect too many people to follow you down the absolute dollar argument.


I don't find anything wrong with talking about absolute dollars. It's not sacrilege. They don't charge wealthy folk more for a can of Campbells Soup than they do for poor people just because its less of a burden for the rich guy. Why should it be any different with taxes? I think its crazy how much more wealthy people pay in taxes than those earning less.

[MJZiggy]

If they do well in school, they'll get a scholarship and go to college on uncle sam. I don't believe for a second the opportunity is not there for anyone. It is people's refusal to go out there and grab it.

I think you need to look around you. How is a kid supposed to get good grades if they have no support system at home and they go to a crappy school? Oh, and they live in a lousy neighborhood where it's dangerous to go to school and half the kids that go there are getting pregnant by the time they get out anyway?

I went to a decent high school and got good grades and got rejected for college anyway as I missed ONE class they deemed necessary. I got in on testing. If I hadn't noticed the fine print at the bottom of that rejection letter I might not have a degree now. And the government doesn't just hand you a college education. If it did there would be no discussion about universal education. According to you, these folks should be taking care of themselves and the government shouldn't even be giving out loans, grants or scholarships anyway.

Look around you. Everyone does NOT have equal opportunity in this country. Just because you have options, doesn't mean everyone is as fortunate. It ain't about refusal. It's about having what it takes to get yourself ahead and not everyone does.

[GoPackGo]

This is a neat website. Its a questionnaire that suggests what candidates you share ideals with.

http://glassbooth.org/

[Freak Out]

Talking about absolute dollars is pretty silly.
you can't compare a hundred dollars of taxes paid by a janitor with the burden of $100 on an investment banker.
Don't expect too many people to follow you down the absolute dollar argument.


I don't find anything wrong with talking about absolute dollars. It's not sacrilege. They don't charge wealthy folk more for a can of Campbells Soup than they do for poor people just because its less of a burden for the rich guy. Why should it be any different with taxes? I think its crazy how much more wealthy people pay in taxes than those earning less.

Come on man....with all those wives come kids and that means huge tax breaks for you. Relax and have another Porter. :glug:

Your tithing is all pre-tax right?

[MJZiggy]

This is a neat website. Its a questionnaire that suggests what candidates you share ideals with.

http://glassbooth.org/

Fascinating. I get the feeling Partial and I won't get the same result...

[Partial]

If they do well in school, they'll get a scholarship and go to college on uncle sam. I don't believe for a second the opportunity is not there for anyone. It is people's refusal to go out there and grab it.

I think you need to look around you. How is a kid supposed to get good grades if they have no support system at home and they go to a crappy school? Oh, and they live in a lousy neighborhood where it's dangerous to go to school and half the kids that go there are getting pregnant by the time they get out anyway?

I went to a decent high school and got good grades and got rejected for college anyway as I missed ONE class they deemed necessary. I got in on testing. If I hadn't noticed the fine print at the bottom of that rejection letter I might not have a degree now. And the government doesn't just hand you a college education. If it did there would be no discussion about universal education. According to you, these folks should be taking care of themselves and the government shouldn't even be giving out loans, grants or scholarships anyway.

Look around you. Everyone does NOT have equal opportunity in this country. Just because you have options, doesn't mean everyone is as fortunate. It ain't about refusal. It's about having what it takes to get yourself ahead and not everyone does.

By sucking it up and doing what it takes. Kids aren't idiots and don't need to be babied every step of the way throughout life. I agree that failure breeds failure, and that is a problem that isn't going to change whether you throw money, opportunity, or any thing at them. I suggest viewing the documentary ghetto 2 ghetto. It displays this point to perfection!

The fact thats its dangerous to go to school in those neighborhoods proves my point. You can give these people whatever they need to succeed but they'd rather stick with their easy life. After all, it's not the middle class or the upper class that is running around Milwaukee blasting Jimmy John's delivery drivers. It's not the middle class wandering the streets of marquette begging for a handout instead of applying for one of the many jobs available on Wisconsin avenue or any of stores on 27th south of Clyborn. Hell, its not the even the lower class struggling to get by families with parents working two jobs. It is just the people that don't care about anything but themselves and live strictly in that moment in time (no planning for the future).

Sadly, the problem will never get fixed no matter how much money and resources you allocate to it.

[MJZiggy]

You think they have an easy life?

[Partial]

You think they have an easy life?

Walking around begging for money? Hell yes I think they have an easy life. I bust my ass for my money and I do not like feeling threatened or guilted into paying for those mother fuckers to take it easy.

You can bet your ass that if I ever came across hard times I wouldn't be sitting there looking for a handout. I would be walking place to place to place applying for jobs, and following up on them daily until I got my feet back on the ground. I will never, ever, ever accept life kicking me in the ass. I will get right back up and work harder than ever.

[Scott Campbell]

I think you and Rush Limbaugh are exaggerating by a factor of 100 the degree to which liberalism is driven by class envy.



FairTax = tax hike for the middle class so the fucking rich pay even less. What is fair about that?


1) I don't listen to any talk radio. So I suspect you spend a lot more time listening to Rush than I.

2) I don't think I need to exaggerate this blatant example of class envy. The term "fucking rich" pretty much speaks for itself.

[MJZiggy]

You think they have an easy life?

Walking around begging for money? Hell yes I think they have an easy life. I bust my ass for my money and I do not like feeling threatened or guilted into paying for those mother fuckers to take it easy.

You can bet your ass that if I ever came across hard times I wouldn't be sitting there looking for a handout. I would be walking place to place to place applying for jobs, and following up on them daily until I got my feet back on the ground. I will never, ever, ever accept life kicking me in the ass. I will get right back up and work harder than ever.

So all poor people are just taking it easy and if the current systems in place do not help them all, then we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts and this is going to solve homelessness and no one will bother you looking for a handout. Interesting argument.

[Scott Campbell]

Come on man....with all those wives come kids and that means huge tax breaks for you. Relax and have another Porter. :glug:

Your tithing is all pre-tax right?


Believe it or not, I even get worked up about this kind of language. Take the term "tax break". As if keeping more of my own fucking money is somehow a "break". Gee, thanks.

I take exception to the definition of progressive and regressive taxes too.

[Scott Campbell]

........we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts.......


Giving them handouts is only one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is that they've taken that handout money from somebody else who truly earned it.

[MJZiggy]

........we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts.......


Giving them handouts is only one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is that they've taken that handout money from somebody else who truly earned it.

So then how does stopping giving them government handouts solve Partial's homelessness problem? He seems to think that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, which they should, but that's not how the real world is working. We live in the most prosperous nation in the world and are so self-interested that we're not willing to help those that have less opportunity than the upper class? Nice.

I used to work with a combat vet who dove under the work table every time one of the forklifts backfired. Helping him takes money out of the pocket of someone who earned it. Right? You gonna tell me that all the vets that came back from service who DID have free rides in college are all wealthy citizens now?

[Partial]

You think they have an easy life?

Walking around begging for money? Hell yes I think they have an easy life. I bust my ass for my money and I do not like feeling threatened or guilted into paying for those mother fuckers to take it easy.

You can bet your ass that if I ever came across hard times I wouldn't be sitting there looking for a handout. I would be walking place to place to place applying for jobs, and following up on them daily until I got my feet back on the ground. I will never, ever, ever accept life kicking me in the ass. I will get right back up and work harder than ever.

So all poor people are just taking it easy and if the current systems in place do not help them all, then we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts and this is going to solve homelessness and no one will bother you looking for a handout. Interesting argument.

No, I don't. Those people who aren't are doing what it takes and hopefully being better parents and getting their kids through school and on to bigger and better things. Interesting topic, out of m group of good friends, the one who's dad was a county social worker with four kids and a mom who stayed at home with the kids, turned out the smartest. Out of that family, they produced a pharmacist, a bio-electrical engineer, a java developer and a high school senior who will be salutitorian.

I think there are some poor people out there that will do what it takes to get by. I think the vast majority aren't willing to put in the work now or didn't earlier in life and missed their opportunity.

[Partial]

Force them to sink or swim on their own. I just dugg an article today about beggars outside Walmart in Portland make 300 dollars a day on average, compared to those inside doing it the right way make that in a week often times.

The reason things don't change is because people always want to take the easy way out.

Cutting them off probably won't change much except take less money out of middle class mike's pocket.

[Partial]

........we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts.......


Giving them handouts is only one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is that they've taken that handout money from somebody else who truly earned it.

So then how does stopping giving them government handouts solve Partial's homelessness problem? He seems to think that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, which they should, but that's not how the real world is working. We live in the most prosperous nation in the world and are so self-interested that we're not willing to help those that have less opportunity than the upper class? Nice.

I used to work with a combat vet who dove under the work table every time one of the forklifts backfired. Helping him takes money out of the pocket of someone who earned it. Right? You gonna tell me that all the vets that came back from service who DID have free rides in college are all wealthy citizens now?

No, and thats why Vets get treatment beyond your average gangbanger. Personally I think there should be a mandatory two years of service and if I could go back in time I would have gone into the marines. I think it'd be good for kids because I sure as shit didn't know anything at 18 and jerked off through two years of college and wasted a lot of money.

I also think that two years of mandatory service at 18 would make a nation filled with much more integrity and willing to do things the right way.

[MJZiggy]

No, I don't. Those people who aren't are doing what it takes and hopefully being better parents and getting their kids through school and on to bigger and better things. Interesting topic, out of m group of good friends, the one who's dad was a county social worker with four kids and a mom who stayed at home with the kids, turned out the smartest. Out of that family, they produced a pharmacist, a bio-electrical engineer, a java developer and a high school senior who will be salutitorian.

I think there are some poor people out there that will do what it takes to get by. I think the vast majority aren't willing to put in the work now or didn't earlier in life and missed their opportunity.

Prosperity and intelligence are not necessarily coincidental. You're comparing the situation of a working class (and a county social worker is not impoverished by the way) family with two parents one who stayed home and you're surprised that the kids did well? What about the kid with a dad who left before he was born and a mom who got addicted when she was little? Where's the opportunity she missed and where does that great example of a work ethic come from for her? Comparatively easy to move up from middle class if you really think about it. I'm not saying no one's ever gotten out of the cycle of poverty, but often times it takes more than one generation of hard work and quite possibly a little assistance along the way. Anyone know how the welfare structure is set up these days? I know they made sweeping changes years ago that in the short term seemed to help, but haven't read an update in a while. Partial, I'm only going on here because I want you to take a look from another person's viewpoint and realize that your world view and theirs might not match up. I can tell you that as much as you put them down, there are likely plenty of people who are pissed as hell at you for all the opportunity you've been given. Brett Favre's mama used to teach her kids that they were no better than the special ed kids she taught. She did well.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Taxes, the idea behind them:

The current system is based on the notion of progressive income taxes, meaning that people who earn more money can pay a higher percentage of their income on taxes. Poorer people need more of their money just to suvive. This is the agreed philosophy we currently operate under since the 1930's.

(It seems that Scott not only rejects progressive taxes, he doesn't think a flat percentage is fair either. He wants to talk in terms of absolute dollars . So I would call Scott philosophically an extremist outside of any mainstream political party.)

Taxes, the reality:

The poorer you are, the higher percentage of your income goes to taxes. This is due to a variety of reasons: Social Security deductions are really a tax, and they are horribly regressive, and aren't applied at all to investment income. Investment income is taxed at a lower rate than wages. Wealthy people have mechanisms available to shelter income from taxes.

Class Warfare, the claim:

The rich are demonized and attacked by the middle and lower classes. Taxes are taking unfair portions of rich people's income.

Class Warfare, the reality:

Most advocates for the lower classes just want rich people to pay their share of taxes as set-out by agreed policy. There is no interest in punishing the rich.

[Partial]

No, I don't. Those people who aren't are doing what it takes and hopefully being better parents and getting their kids through school and on to bigger and better things. Interesting topic, out of m group of good friends, the one who's dad was a county social worker with four kids and a mom who stayed at home with the kids, turned out the smartest. Out of that family, they produced a pharmacist, a bio-electrical engineer, a java developer and a high school senior who will be salutitorian.

I think there are some poor people out there that will do what it takes to get by. I think the vast majority aren't willing to put in the work now or didn't earlier in life and missed their opportunity.

Prosperity and intelligence are not necessarily coincidental. You're comparing the situation of a working class (and a county social worker is not impoverished by the way) family with two parents one who stayed home and you're surprised that the kids did well? What about the kid with a dad who left before he was born and a mom who got addicted when she was little? Where's the opportunity she missed and where does that great example of a work ethic come from for her? Comparatively easy to move up from middle class if you really think about it. I'm not saying no one's ever gotten out of the cycle of poverty, but often times it takes more than one generation of hard work and quite possibly a little assistance along the way. Anyone know how the welfare structure is set up these days? I know they made sweeping changes years ago that in the short term seemed to help, but haven't read an update in a while. Partial, I'm only going on here because I want you to take a look from another person's viewpoint and realize that your world view and theirs might not match up. I can tell you that as much as you put them down, there are likely plenty of people who are pissed as hell at you for all the opportunity you've been given. Brett Favre's mama used to teach her kids that they were no better than the special ed kids she taught. She did well.

I'm saying give up on poverty all together because other than a few its futile. Fair Tax would help them out plenty, and help out the middle class.

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people. Your ideas are based on theory, and just don't match up with reality.

There is no way to convince you. You don't have the range of relationships and life experiences that would allow you to understand the lives of these people. So you'll never change. My dad is like you guys. He was very smart and hardworking, and worked his way up the ladder of life and doesn't understand why everybody else can't do it. Well, lets just say the world is not set up for everybody to be financially successful, it's a competitive world that produces and even needs people in the lower rungs.

[MJZiggy]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

By what example did they learn (like you had the example to learn from) better than their actions reflect? We learn by example. Who taught these kids the right way to live and manage money and take care of themselves? Should is nice, but you have to work with the world the way it is, not the way it should be, and by giving up on these people you still haven't solved your panhandling problem, and by the way, have you ever noticed how many of them are vets?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

She lives in the land of taxes Milwaukee. No, she isn't raising kids. That's why you have a husband or you work hard. How many people who have kids honestly don't make 40-50 grand? If you work hard, its pretty tough not to.



You don't seriously believe that, do you? You think the grocery store checkers who stands there working their asses off all day are making 50 grand, huh? You think that'll buy them a nice condo in, say, San Francisco? How 'bout Boston?

Working people don't deserve to live in those cool cities. They should only live in montana or the dakotas.

[Joemailman]

I also think that two years of mandatory service at 18 would make a nation filled with much more integrity and willing to do things the right way.

When Chris Dodd was running for the Dem nomination, he proposed this http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/23/politics/main2970684.shtml

His candidacy went nowhere unfortunately. He was a good man who wasn't afraid to ask Americans to sacrifice. Contrast this to our current President who in the wake of 9/11 urged Americans to go shopping.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

No, I don't think a grocery store checker is an acceptable job if you're trying to raise a family by yourself. If you strive to be only a grocery store clerk, than maybe kids aren't for you.

You constantly prove you are an idiot. So, now you are in favor of only rich people having kids?

Have you considered that some people aren't smart and won't achieve. The world needs grocery clerks and others that we pay little to no money. So, they shouldn't have kids?

Dope.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

By what example did they learn (like you had the example to learn from) better than their actions reflect? We learn by example. Who taught these kids the right way to live and manage money and take care of themselves? Should is nice, but you have to work with the world the way it is, not the way it should be, and by giving up on these people you still haven't solved your panhandling problem, and by the way, have you ever noticed how many of them are vets?

MJZiggy,

There really isn't point in discussing this. Partial is a college student who lives at home. He has a safety net, yet doesn't even realize it.

Even after he leaves home he still will have that net, and as i'm willing to bet his folks would let him live at their house if things got rough.

He knows nothing of being completely self sufficient. He knows nothing about being poor...he thinks because he has no money or very little in college that he is poor.

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.


you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

[GoPackGo]

:lol:

[MJZiggy]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.


you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

Our boy has mentioned on the forum several times that he went to Platteville because he couldn't get into the bigger school.

[Harlan Huckleby]

so what.

John McCain graduated last in his class at the Naval Academy.

Joe Biden was at bottom of class in law school, if memory serves.

There are tons of smart and even brilliant people who aren't great scholars.

Oh my god, did I just suggest that PArtial is brilliant?

anyway, i don't like the snippy shit. judging people by this or that status symbol - what their parents do for a living, what college they went to.

[MJZiggy]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

[GrnBay007]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

I think at one point he was referring to "thugs" rather than poor people...


Hell, its not the even the lower class struggling to get by families with parents working two jobs. It is just the people that don't care about anything but themselves and live strictly in that moment in time (no planning for the future).

[Freak Out]

and if I could go back in time I would have gone into the marines.

Why do you have to go back in time? Join now.

[MJZiggy]

At one point he was and then suggested that all the folks that have to live like that want to be there or are there because they're not working hard enough. (and just because some kid saves his cash and wants to feel "klassy" by putting rims on the hoopty does not necessarily make him a thug does it? Maybe the kid just realizes his life is going nowhere, or maybe he's just a kid who doesn't know any better)

He's generalized repeatedly. Apparently being in the jobs that these working folk have to take because they don't have his education isn't good enough (re: the grocery checker). His respect for those working people seems to stop at the middle class which he's also mentioned specifically in the thread. He might have mentioned those people who work, but he's also talking about giving up on the programs and services that help those very working people.

His generalization was a gross generalization in which he's also suggested that the people who live in impoverished areas are not deserving of basic services because they don't make enough to pay taxes.

[GrnBay007]

I have personally witnessed many people from far less than desirable upbringings go on to make a success of their life. It may not be what some of you consider to be a "success" but they are supporting a family within their means. There is no doubt it's extremely difficult in some cases and those individuals need to have an incredible will to succeed....but it can be done. There are SO many educational opportunities out there that support people that can't afford a college education or a trade school it's unbelievable. From reading through the thread it seems some are talking about people that actually want to better their lives and struggling compared to those that don't care and just want handouts. There is a huge difference...just as there is with people that want to work and those that really don't. I don't know if any welfare system can ever fairly exclude the crooks out there that exploit it. There will always be someone out there to find a loophole to ruin certain things for others that could benefit. It is comparable to so many crooks out there collecting disability unjustly.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.


you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

HH,

Sorry, but you missed the point. I am by no means impugning the family who raised the children. I'm impugning his view of success. For many, those professions are middle class..not successful.

If you asked my friends in high school, college or their parents they would not have defined those jobs as success. They would have looked at their child as a failure. If you come from a family of physicians, you like most parents want better for your child..and clearly those professions aren't. I am loathe to talk about my personal life..thus the creation of Tyrone..which let's me have some anonymity..avoiding personal questions. But, i will let you know that i grew up in Fox Point and attended Nicolet. And, the same stupid, arrogant, "born on third base, but thought they hit a triple" existed there..but, on a much grander scale. If you presented those professions as options, you woulda been considered a loser. Unless you were going to Stanford or MIT..not just being a programmer. I guess when one of your classmates is now a billionare http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2005/0905/118.html (convinced her husbands investment firm to invest in yahoo), or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Steuer, or scion of the Marcus family, or scion of stein optical, or the numerous doctors and lawyers being a 55-90k salaryman is a loser.

The point is that success is clearly subjective. A grocery clerk or retail salesperson can be a success if their parents were poor, on welfare, or drug addicts.

Platteville: Not a chance. Platteville, by any standard (peterson, gourman report) is not considered a good school. Can one succeed if one attended, of course. But, for the most part, the students that went there didn't apply themselves from grades 1-12.

And, using partial's harsh, apply yourself, pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality...if they wanted a small school, they shoulda earned a scholly to an excellent private school. IT IS JUST THAT EASY. ANYONE CAN EARN A SCHOLLY. :roll:

The point is that Partial openly looks down on people. He is an elitist, yet has no clue that for many he would be looked down with disdain by more successful elitists.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you? :oops:

[MJZiggy]

And what you're saying is exactly what I've been trying to get P to understand. You can't judge the people that want it and can't based on those that would rather just get the handout. I'm not advocating the status quo by any means, but I am suggesting that just because it doesn't work the way it is, you don't give up on the whole thing. You find a different way to make it work better. If everyone gave up when something didn't work well, we'd all be sitting here in the dark. There'll always be abuse, but there'll also always be people out there who weary of the enormous hill they have to climb and are looking for a little help getting there.

I asked once before in the thread if anyone had an update as to what was happening with the welfare system since welfare reform. Last I heard was in order to get the welfare you had to be making a demonstrable effort.


I have personally witnessed many people from far less than desirable upbringings go on to make a success of their life. It may not be what some of you consider to be a "success" but they are supporting a family within their means. There is no doubt it's extremely difficult in some cases and those individuals need to have an incredible will to succeed....but it can be done.

I bet the kids of these folks will have an easier time of it than their parents did...

[Tyrone Bigguns]

so what.

John McCain graduated last in his class at the Naval Academy.

Joe Biden was at bottom of class in law school, if memory serves.

There are tons of smart and even brilliant people who aren't great scholars.

Oh my god, did I just suggest that PArtial is brilliant?

anyway, i don't like the snippy shit. judging people by this or that status symbol - what their parents do for a living, what college they went to.

Ah, great examples..cept they GOT INTO DECENT SCHOOLS.

No, there are not tons of smart brilliant people who aren't scholars. They are the exceptions that prove the rule.

There are people who aren't academically inclined who are good at other things..being an entrepreneur, artists, etc.

And, i agree with you..i don't judge on those criteria. But, if partial is gonna jduge, then it is my duty to show him how stupid he is for judging. He wants to apply his standards to judging...yet, doesn't realize there are other standards...and standards that would judge him harshly.

The parents i knew growing up would be mortified if there child went to platteville. There would be talk of "he is finding himself," or "we hope he gets it together," or "as long as he is happy we don't care what he does"..yet you would see the pain in their face.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I have personally witnessed many people from far less than desirable upbringings go on to make a success of their life. It may not be what some of you consider to be a "success" but they are supporting a family within their means. There is no doubt it's extremely difficult in some cases and those individuals need to have an incredible will to succeed....but it can be done. There are SO many educational opportunities out there that support people that can't afford a college education or a trade school it's unbelievable. From reading through the thread it seems some are talking about people that actually want to better their lives and struggling compared to those that don't care and just want handouts. There is a huge difference...just as there is with people that want to work and those that really don't. I don't know if any welfare system can ever fairly exclude the crooks out there that exploit it. There will always be someone out there to find a loophole to ruin certain things for others that could benefit. It is comparable to so many crooks out there collecting disability unjustly.

Exactly.

That is what MJ is trying to get partial to understand. Success is subjective.

Most troubling is his idea that a certain income is needed to have children..as if rich kids are problem free. :roll:

I lived in orlando for a number of years. I'm sure that you, partial and others enjoy the theme parks. Yet, those folks who work there aren't worthy of having children..as they top out at 10 dollars and hour. Partial would say they should get another job...as it is just that easy. Yet, who would work the parks...the FORTYFIVE THOUSAND that work at Disney alone.

I think that it is extremely noble to work hard to support your family..especially if you don't make a ton of cash. It is much easier to not have children..or just run away..as some guys do.

Crooks: You are right. Just as there are crooks that make a lot of money by stealing from our government, cutting edges, cheating on their taxes, etc.

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling. The republicans have demonized the poor..they are bad people and going to hurt you. What happened to poor working class folks who go to church, etc.

When i lived in Tampa, i worked for my wife's grandfather pt running his rental business when he snowbirded back to wisco for the summers. I repeatedly had white folks asking how i could go into "those neighborhoods" as they feared them. Yet, i went all the time..no weapon..because they were just poor..they worked 2 jobs at minimum wage. They were black. Nothing ever happened to me.

He condemns a group of people based on his experience with a limited group of the population.

Should i do the same towards partial's friends based on his stupidity?

[Scott Campbell]

Taxes, the idea behind them:

The current system is based on the notion of progressive income taxes, meaning that people who earn more money can pay a higher percentage of their income on taxes. Poorer people need more of their money just to suvive. This is the agreed philosophy we currently operate under since the 1930's.

(It seems that Scott not only rejects progressive taxes, he doesn't think a flat percentage is fair either. He wants to talk in terms of absolute dollars . So I would call Scott philosophically an extremist outside of any mainstream political party.)

Taxes, the reality:

The poorer you are, the higher percentage of your income goes to taxes. This is due to a variety of reasons: Social Security deductions are really a tax, and they are horribly regressive, and aren't applied at all to investment income. Investment income is taxed at a lower rate than wages. Wealthy people have mechanisms available to shelter income from taxes.

Class Warfare, the claim:

The rich are demonized and attacked by the middle and lower classes. Taxes are taking unfair portions of rich people's income.

Class Warfare, the reality:

Most advocates for the lower classes just want rich people to pay their share of taxes as set-out by agreed policy. There is no interest in punishing the rich.


You have horribly misrepresented my position, and have made claims that I and a few others are unable to comprehend anything beyond our own socio economic situations, while implying that you are able to fully comprehend what is best for all of God's creatures. In other words - typical Harlan.

[MJZiggy]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you? :oops:

Your wife might object...

[Scott Campbell]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you? :oops:

Your wife might object...


Why?

[Scott Campbell]

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people.


Of course you don't Harlan.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you? :oops:

Your wife might object...

Ex wife. She is Florida..i am in arizona. I figured that was enough distance from the woman who BROKE MY HEART..AHH...AHHH...BITCH!! (best sam kinison)

[Scott Campbell]

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling.


Being poor is not a character flaw. At all. If someone is doing the best they possibly can, then they deserve as much respect as anyone.

But if you don't think that there are a lot of poor people out there who are poor because they prefer to be lazy or underachieve, then you are just sticking your head in the sand. Poverty in and of itself is not noble.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you? :oops:

Your wife might object...


Why?

Prescient Scott. But that was just college, and she was just experimenting. :?

Some help with the womanly chores of keeping my cardboard box ship shape she woulda appreciated.

[RashanGary]

I've seen both sides. My mom left my dad after they had 6 kids because he developed a serious drinking problem. He had everything going for him after highschool but he drank it away and my mom suffered. We grew up poor but my mom went to college (with 6 kids) with the help of my step dad at the time. She's now a nurse, making a good living doing well.

I never gave a shit about school. I remember in 6th grade, I aced the entry test for higher math. I've always clashed with athority so my two teachers accused me of cheating and then pronouced to the class that some other nerd was moving ahead to higher math because he cared about doing will. From there, I got filtered into basic math and was bored out of my mind. I just sort of showed up, did the minimum and got by.

Then came high school. I started using drugs and drinking regularly. I got through classes with passing grades for the first two years while I still attneded regularly. I wasn't dumb. I got A's on tests and finals. I just didn't give a shit. I really had no focus, nothing to live for. At one point, I thought about how little I had, and I said, I'm smart. I have that and with that, I always had hope that when I wanted, I'd make it happen for myself. I also grew up (before my dad went down hill) on a farm with a grandpa who worked his ass off every day. I was a hard and willing worker. Lazyness still bothers me today. Those two things probably saved me but anyway. . .

As my high school career developed, I started getting underage drinking tickets and racking up fines. I've never been lazy so I worked from age 15 and I've never stopped working (I'm 26 now). One day I got caught smoking by the police in "smokers alley". I had a tabocco charge. I missed the court date. I had just turned 17 and the police came, picked me up and brought me to jail. Not kiddy jail, big person jail. My mom never came to get me on a $50 bail. That was the semester I had decided to turn it around. I had all A's half way through the semester, I just wanted to prove to myself and everyone else that I was capable of all A's if I wanted them. Well, I missed 2 weeks of school before a teacher found out I was in jail. She bailed me out and offered to have me live with her. I was embarassed and really down on myself after spending time in jail. I didn't want charity. I said no. Had I said yeah, I probably would have been in college right after high school because with my ACT, and my guidance councelor filling out forms, I had scholorships and FA that would have paid my entire way with money on top for spending.

Eventually I did not graduate on time. I got called into the principals office with my mom. They told me that they wished they were as smart as me. They said my teachers all swore I could do anything I wanted. Proble was, I had a big time attitude against athority and I didn't give a shit about anything. He told me I should get my own buisness because it's going to be hard for me to work for people.

My mom kicked me out. I had just turned 18, had no high school diploma and didn't have a care in the world. There were nights where I didn't know where i was going to stay. I'd go to a friends window and he'd let me in. I'd go to my girlfriend and she'd sneak me in. Eventually I ran out of options but just then, I met the became friends with the neighborhood drug house. It was just pot mostly, but they were poor as dirt, living off SSI. The mom was a good hearted person though. She didn't even know me, but she wouldn't let me sleep on the street. I vowed to finish high school and I did.

I was still drinking and smoking pot every day. I worked at Wendy's this whole time. I had developed a method of skimming the till without the missing money showing up when they added up the accounting every night. They put me on register (big mistake) and I started my till skimming. Trhoughout the night as people ordered, if they ever ordered something off the .99 menu, I'd just pretend like I pushed the button and add it to their total. Instead of giving them their reciept, I'd throw it in the garbage and take the money that it should have costed if I punched it up correctly. I'd keep track of 20 of those each night and earn an extra 120 per week (I worked 6 nights). That worked out really well considering I had a ghetto appartment with my 17 year old girlfriend at the time.


Anyway, life went on like that. I eventually graduated highschool a year late, workign my way through. I had a friend of the family offer to have me come to GB. I was like "hell yeah". I left my girlfriend. We cried. It was tough. I didn't know anyone here. I stopped drinking. STopped using drugs. I got a job at a grocery store making $10 per hour. Seriously, to me that was a lot of money. I had no standards. I didn't even know how to pay a bill. My ghetto land lord used to just pick up the rent check. Luckily for me, I'm attractive to girls and noboyd knew me so I eventually met my current wife. She comes from a very normal family. They make good money, are very smart with their finances. Her dad is 53 and looking to retire.

She got pregnant. We decided to have the baby (a much bigger sacrafice to her than me). She had to quit school. I got a new job at a factory, then as a framing carpenter. Eventually, I sort of learned on my own and through my wife hot to do normal things that you guys all take for granted like pay bills or not be a fucking jack ass at work. If I was ugly as sin and stupid (sorry, but I think the only reason I was able to get jobs is becuase I never looked bad. It's sad, but I think it helped me). I guarantee a start like mine would have doomed most people. I'm the only one of my friends that I know that is having any level of success.

I was workign as a carpenter. I was happy with that. I talked my wife into having one more kid, then we could just raise our two kids togehter and put that long term commitment behind us. Well, just then I got in a fight with a coworker. I was fired from my job. I decided to go back to school. I got a job working till 1:00 AM. I was taking 12 credits and working 38 hours per week. I was sleeping 5 hours per night. I have always been in great shape phyisically from the work I did but with school, work and the two boys (I watched them on Friday's and Saturdays), I didn't have time to exercies. For the first time, I had a few extra pounds. I wasn't sleeping. I was sick at one point for about 4 month strait. I have pictures where I don't even look like myself of last year. I eventually got close enough were I cut out some insurances just to get through this last year. Now I work 16 hours per week and have 15 credits. I watch my boys 2 days per week but it's not bad at all right now. I just took the state entry test for engineering techs and scored number 1 state wide. I have interviews lining up.

I've decided I'm going to continue my education. I'm going to do it slowly though. I don't care if I'm not done till I'm 40, I just can't see me punching out numbers and inspecting work forever. It's already getting boring. I have some ideas, but I don't like to talk about them. I'd rather wait till it materializes and show people.

Everyone I know says they can't believe I made it out of my situation.

I had a few people througout my life that instilled just enough love and belief in me that I wasn't completely lost. I had a grandpa who was a farmer, then when farming went got tough in Aurora Wisconsin, 2 hours north of here (not as ideal for farming as GB), he went to Detroit, worked on machines and then built his own shop on his farm. I grew up there for the first 6 years of my life and visited until I was about 10. He'd work from 6 AM until 7 at night every day, often times on weekends. He was the person I most looked up to in my life and still is. (he died when I was 11).

He was a bit of a bad ass though. Apparently noboyd dared step foot on our property as he shot some guy in the 60's and claimed it to be an accident. That was when he moved to Detroit for a while, the neighbors I talk to now said he was laying low.

I got my work ethic from him and a little bit of the crazy streak too. I once had a few thousand dollars owed to me (just before my 2nd child) and lets just say I got it back the old fashioned way and I didn't sleep to well because I was wondering if I'd be woken up by the police taking me to jail. I had it all figured out though. I didn't do anything that was against the law or make any direct threats. I just got my money back and it looked like I was crazy. No crime in that :)

Anyway, here I am. I'm not in jail. I'm about to get a good job. I don't particularly relate well to people because of what I've been through. Most of the people I associate with today (all of them acctually) are completely the opposite of what I was. Nobody (except my wife) even knows the details. In fact, this will be one fo the first times I've really talked about it in a long time. It acctually feels good ot get it off my chest.


Feel free to judge me. That's fine. I had a tough up bringing and experienced some tough situaitons. Know what though, I take time every day and I look at my boys and almost cry because they are so wonderfull and they do not have to experience anything that I did. I have every intention to make a success out of my life and have security and as poor as we've been, we have money flwoing into our 401K's and IRA's for the last 5 years and it's starting to acctually mean something now.

I know a little something about being on the bottom and I can say, if you give those people just enough money to survive for free, they'll never wake up and do it for themselves. Sorry for rambling on, but my belief in earning what you get in life deosn't come from the perspective of someone who's living at home going to platteville. It comes from someone who was given nothing but a kick out the door and a few articals of clothing at age 18 and has made everything I have with the help of my wife and the inspiration of my kids.



Oh, and I'll say this. As a person who was just scraping by off a fast food job and embessling money, I can say that I believe the #1 reason people are poor is becuase of their up bringing. If they are not taught how to live, it's a bitch to learn at age 18 on your own. I consider myself a pretty smart guy, but there was a time when I didn't even know how to pay a bill. Big deal, right. A bunch of kids don't when they're 16. Well, I was 18, on my own and I had bills. I took my breaks and got out. I can understand if some people never do though. Even still, I don't believe they deserve free money. We are survivors. They will find a way and through that, they will become more than they knew possible. Give people just enough to survive and they will in the lowest of low with no pride in themselves. It's really a sad place to be in my opinion.

I don't feel bad for them though. They have to pick their heads up and make it happen. I could be sitting in jail or working at McDonalds. Instead I took every break, worked my ass off and made it happen.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling.


Being poor is not a character flaw. At all. If someone is doing the best they possibly can, then they deserve as much respect as anyone.

But if you don't think that there are a lot of poor people out there who are poor because they prefer to be lazy or underachieve, then you are just sticking your head in the sand. Poverty in and of itself is not noble.

Nobody is denying there are lazy poor folks. Just as there are plenty of lazy rich folks that didn't earn their money and underachieve (and underachieve at least means they tried). Take a bow mr. president. Hello Paris Hilton. But, drug dealing and panhandling, while misdirected, at least show a work ethic. They aren't just picking up a check.

I've prolly more experience than most with poor folks. And, for the most part i found them hardworking. Percentage wise i think most are decent folks. The bad ones are more visible and skew perceptions.

Infact, it isn't even close that more white folks are poor and lazy..then again there are more of them. In my experience it is white people that are on "disability" more than minorities. Maybe blacks know how to cheat welfare, but whites definitely know the scam of disability.

And, while i don't know your religion..jokes about mormon on the board..here in az, the mormons are the ones known for taking gov't money..having more children than they can afford. It sure isn't the hard working mexicans (whites might not like the fact that some are illegal, but nobody ever calls them lazy), blacks or indians (well, the casinos do help).

It is partials subtle racism that i find most objectionable. References to "thugs" that really translates to BLACK. As if no white people are that way..no white trash. Perhaps a trip to west virginia, appalachia, etc. would change his viewpoint.

Lastly, i find his views of how poor folks should live their life and spend their money sickening. It is as if you are poor you should only spend your money wisely. Right. Like no middle class "achievers" don't spend their money foolishly (bad stocks, bad real estate, credit card debt, living beyond their means)...we have an expression in scottsdale for it..30k millionaire..and that doesn't describe poor folks..it is stupid lower middle class white people. So, you are poor, most likely under educated, yet you should be smarter than the educated folks and make wise decisions. IDIOTIC.

Do we even want to talk about the institutions that prey on poor folks...rent to own, title loans, etc.

[RashanGary]

Some day (after my kids are grown and I'm really established), I plan on helping some kid who's in a bad situation. I'll find someone who's drinking, has a rough family life and really wants to make it happen. I know he won't want help (I never have and denied it when it was offered) but I'll convince one of those messed up little fuckers to take my help and promise to do the same for some kid, some day. It's something I really want to do. Closure or something.

Anwway, that's my story. I left out a bunch, but for the most part the messed up jist is up there :)

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Great story JH. Wendy's called, they say you owe a couple thousand. :wink:

BTW, you are right...things have to be learned.

My ex use to work for Eckerd Family Youth Alternatives...she had to teach these kids the basics of life..how to brush their teeth, not to use a towel to wipe their ass, etc...and these weren't toddlers.

There is now science showing that intellect can be affected by the number of words you hear as a child...parents are now trying to say 30k words a day around their children.

I know i got my love of learning and reading from my mom who read to my brother and myself for years..not children's books, but Dickens, etc.

[Partial]

No, I don't think a grocery store checker is an acceptable job if you're trying to raise a family by yourself. If you strive to be only a grocery store clerk, than maybe kids aren't for you.

You constantly prove you are an idiot. So, now you are in favor of only rich people having kids?

Have you considered that some people aren't smart and won't achieve. The world needs grocery clerks and others that we pay little to no money. So, they shouldn't have kids?

Dope.

While one spouse is at the grocery store the other can work an office job. I worked at Pick'n'save for two years and I can tell you that these adults are working a high schoolers job at night or a college students job during the day.

I don't think its idiotic to expect people that want kids to have two working partners if they intend to work in a grocery store as a cashier and have children.

Everyone has a brain and is intelligent enough to get by. I believe its a lot more the size of the fight in the bear, than it is the size of the bear in the fight. Especially when it comes to success.

[Partial]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

By what example did they learn (like you had the example to learn from) better than their actions reflect? We learn by example. Who taught these kids the right way to live and manage money and take care of themselves? Should is nice, but you have to work with the world the way it is, not the way it should be, and by giving up on these people you still haven't solved your panhandling problem, and by the way, have you ever noticed how many of them are vets?

MJZiggy,

There really isn't point in discussing this. Partial is a college student who lives at home. He has a safety net, yet doesn't even realize it.

Even after he leaves home he still will have that net, and as i'm willing to bet his folks would let him live at their house if things got rough.

He knows nothing of being completely self sufficient. He knows nothing about being poor...he thinks because he has no money or very little in college that he is poor.

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

Ha. Rip on Platteville. That's funny because I see Platteville engineers placing better with higher salaries than the pompass asses of Madison. That's true I didn't apply myself in high school, not that I need to explain myself to some douche bag who thinks he is the shit because he went to madison...

As for what I referenced as a family, the oldest one is 25 and they are pretty damn successful yet came from a very poor family. All that is implying is that lower income working class families who want to be successful can be, it all comes down to attitude.

What exactly do you do for a living Tyrone? I'd be curious to know. Do you toot your horn about being a badger to your co-workers in salary inflated Phoenix?

[Partial]

you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

Ding ding ding. Madison's engineering program is the 4th best in the state if you include Michigan tech. Laughable :lol: :lol: One could argue Marquette is better as well

I know 4 or 5 good students from Madison that went on to take 40k engineering jobs out of school, where you Platteville graduate was taking 50-60k for a job in Iowa or Illinois in a town with lower cost of living :lol:

[Partial]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.


you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

Our boy has mentioned on the forum several times that he went to Platteville because he couldn't get into the bigger school.

Yeah? So waht? I went to a good high school. A friend of mine scored a 30 on his ACT and a 3.9 and did not get in. I had a 2.7 GPA and a 30 on my ACT as also did not get in.

[Partial]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

No no, there is a difference between the working class poor and the hoodlums who ruin Milwaukee. I am talking about the later. Anyway, wasn't this discussion about Fair Tax and its brilliance? Typically your working class family progresses to middle class or higher because they manage their money wisely. Zaquitrias and his boys do not because they're thugged out.

[Partial]

and if I could go back in time I would have gone into the marines.

Why do you have to go back in time? Join now.

I have too much going for now with a committed girlfriend, a solid job, and 13/16 done with school.

[Partial]

At one point he was and then suggested that all the folks that have to live like that want to be there or are there because they're not working hard enough. (and just because some kid saves his cash and wants to feel "klassy" by putting rims on the hoopty does not necessarily make him a thug does it? Maybe the kid just realizes his life is going nowhere, or maybe he's just a kid who doesn't know any better)

No, it makes him a useless dumbass.


He's generalized repeatedly. Apparently being in the jobs that these working folk have to take because they don't have his education isn't good enough (re: the grocery checker). His respect for those working people seems to stop at the middle class which he's also mentioned specifically in the thread. He might have mentioned those people who work, but he's also talking about giving up on the programs and services that help those very working people.

People make their decisions of what they want to be and should accept the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair. They should deal with it and move on.


His generalization was a gross generalization in which he's also suggested that the people who live in impoverished areas are not deserving of basic services because they don't make enough to pay taxes.

whoa whoa whoa... I am saying they don't deserve any more money pumped into social programs and whatnot trying to change their ways because its futile. Failure breeds failure. They have laziness engrained in them. Ask Michelle if she knows how many times a day her nephew gets hit up for coin on a typical day. It's disgusting frankly.

[Partial]

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling.


Being poor is not a character flaw. At all. If someone is doing the best they possibly can, then they deserve as much respect as anyone.

But if you don't think that there are a lot of poor people out there who are poor because they prefer to be lazy or underachieve, then you are just sticking your head in the sand. Poverty in and of itself is not noble.

Exactly what I have been saying in a far more elegant way.

[Partial]

You know, that is one thing that I hate about Madison. Tyrone is implying that he is superior because he came from a rich family and went to Madison. That's bullshit. It's a good school and all, but I sure as hell am smarter than my girlfriend who graduated with a 3.9 gpa in biology from there.

It's actually kind of an interesting parallel because it shows how irrelevant brains are and how important is. I could get the same degree from UWM as her and I'd make 10k-30k less per year than her simply because she'll have the UW crest on her diploma and I wouldn't.

Definitely shows the value of hard work imo. You start young and the fruits will pay off later.

Unless you go for engineering, then going to any number of schools would get you more money.

[MJZiggy]

Partial, are you really so myopic that you've missed Tyrone's point this horridly? I would be sad to think so but you've proven his point quite effectively.

[Harlan Huckleby]

how did this thread turn into a Partial blog? this cult of personality that has arisen is quite something, Partial is the new Barak Obama.

Yes he can! Yes he can! Yes he can! (No he can't! No he can't No he Can't!)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Working people don't deserve to live in those cool cities. They should only live in montana or the dakotas.

I don't know about the Dakotas, our own forum has a unpleasant record with Dakotans, but Montana is very cool. Beautiful country, lots of beautiful people escape there. I think working people should be settled in Indiana & Ohio where they can be with their kind.

[Scott Campbell]

I know a little something about being on the bottom and I can say, if you give those people just enough money to survive for free, they'll never wake up and do it for themselves.


While I don't think that is universally true, I do believe there is some truth there. At some point you are just enabling un-desireable behavior by making it easier to work the system than to work a job.

[Scott Campbell]

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people. Your ideas are based on theory, and just don't match up with reality.

There is no way to convince you.



I doubt there is any way to convince you either. You're going to vote for whoever promises you the most "free" money, and complain about those who contribute 100x what you do to the tax base for having the audacity to keep any of their earnings.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I've seen both sides.

JustinHarrell, get your own thread to tell your story. This thread is for all things Partial.

[MJZiggy]

Who said anything about "giving them money?" And while you're talking about working the system, can you tell me how the system's working or are you criticizing based on assumptions or based on how the system worked 20 years ago?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people. Your ideas are based on theory, and just don't match up with reality.

There is no way to convince you.



I doubt there is any way to convince you either. You're going to vote for whoever promises you the most "free" money, and complain about those who contribute 100x what you do to the tax base for having the audacity to keep any of their earnings.

I like that "audacity to keep" part, makes me think of Barak's "Audacity of Hope" book. Maybe there is a book in it for you, if not a Presidential bid.

You speak in extreme stereotypes, like Rush, about the lazy poor and liberals who want free stuff from the government and confiscatory taxes for the doers. What would you think about getting beyond this silly name calling and talking about real policy?

Do you reject progressive taxes? Do you want rich and poor to pay the same tax rate? What do you think the facts are today? Do you really think the person earning $40,000 as a Radio Shack manager, working 60 hours per week, is paying a larger or smaller percentage of their income on taxes than you do?

[Scott Campbell]

I've seen both sides. My mom left my dad after they had 6 kids because he developed a serious drinking problem. He had everything going for him after highschool but he drank it away and my mom suffered. We grew up poor but my mom went to college (with 6 kids) with the help of my step dad at the time. She's now a nurse, making a good living doing well.

I never gave a shit about school. I remember in 6th grade, I aced the entry test for higher math. I've always clashed with athority so my two teachers accused me of cheating and then pronouced to the class that some other nerd was moving ahead to higher math because he cared about doing will. From there, I got filtered into basic math and was bored out of my mind. I just sort of showed up, did the minimum and got by.

Then came high school. I started using drugs and drinking regularly. I got through classes with passing grades for the first two years while I still attneded regularly. I wasn't dumb. I got A's on tests and finals. I just didn't give a shit. I really had no focus, nothing to live for. At one point, I thought about how little I had, and I said, I'm smart. I have that and with that, I always had hope that when I wanted, I'd make it happen for myself. I also grew up (before my dad went down hill) on a farm with a grandpa who worked his ass off every day. I was a hard and willing worker. Lazyness still bothers me today. Those two things probably saved me but anyway. . .

As my high school career developed, I started getting underage drinking tickets and racking up fines. I've never been lazy so I worked from age 15 and I've never stopped working (I'm 26 now). One day I got caught smoking by the police in "smokers alley". I had a tabocco charge. I missed the court date. I had just turned 17 and the police came, picked me up and brought me to jail. Not kiddy jail, big person jail. My mom never came to get me on a $50 bail. That was the semester I had decided to turn it around. I had all A's half way through the semester, I just wanted to prove to myself and everyone else that I was capable of all A's if I wanted them. Well, I missed 2 weeks of school before a teacher found out I was in jail. She bailed me out and offered to have me live with her. I was embarassed and really down on myself after spending time in jail. I didn't want charity. I said no. Had I said yeah, I probably would have been in college right after high school because with my ACT, and my guidance councelor filling out forms, I had scholorships and FA that would have paid my entire way with money on top for spending.

Eventually I did not graduate on time. I got called into the principals office with my mom. They told me that they wished they were as smart as me. They said my teachers all swore I could do anything I wanted. Proble was, I had a big time attitude against athority and I didn't give a shit about anything. He told me I should get my own buisness because it's going to be hard for me to work for people.

My mom kicked me out. I had just turned 18, had no high school diploma and didn't have a care in the world. There were nights where I didn't know where i was going to stay. I'd go to a friends window and he'd let me in. I'd go to my girlfriend and she'd sneak me in. Eventually I ran out of options but just then, I met the became friends with the neighborhood drug house. It was just pot mostly, but they were poor as dirt, living off SSI. The mom was a good hearted person though. She didn't even know me, but she wouldn't let me sleep on the street. I vowed to finish high school and I did.

I was still drinking and smoking pot every day. I worked at Wendy's this whole time. I had developed a method of skimming the till without the missing money showing up when they added up the accounting every night. They put me on register (big mistake) and I started my till skimming. Trhoughout the night as people ordered, if they ever ordered something off the .99 menu, I'd just pretend like I pushed the button and add it to their total. Instead of giving them their reciept, I'd throw it in the garbage and take the money that it should have costed if I punched it up correctly. I'd keep track of 20 of those each night and earn an extra 120 per week (I worked 6 nights). That worked out really well considering I had a ghetto appartment with my 17 year old girlfriend at the time.


Anyway, life went on like that. I eventually graduated highschool a year late, workign my way through. I had a friend of the family offer to have me come to GB. I was like "hell yeah". I left my girlfriend. We cried. It was tough. I didn't know anyone here. I stopped drinking. STopped using drugs. I got a job at a grocery store making $10 per hour. Seriously, to me that was a lot of money. I had no standards. I didn't even know how to pay a bill. My ghetto land lord used to just pick up the rent check. Luckily for me, I'm attractive to girls and noboyd knew me so I eventually met my current wife. She comes from a very normal family. They make good money, are very smart with their finances. Her dad is 53 and looking to retire.

She got pregnant. We decided to have the baby (a much bigger sacrafice to her than me). She had to quit school. I got a new job at a factory, then as a framing carpenter. Eventually, I sort of learned on my own and through my wife hot to do normal things that you guys all take for granted like pay bills or not be a fucking jack ass at work. If I was ugly as sin and stupid (sorry, but I think the only reason I was able to get jobs is becuase I never looked bad. It's sad, but I think it helped me). I guarantee a start like mine would have doomed most people. I'm the only one of my friends that I know that is having any level of success.

I was workign as a carpenter. I was happy with that. I talked my wife into having one more kid, then we could just raise our two kids togehter and put that long term commitment behind us. Well, just then I got in a fight with a coworker. I was fired from my job. I decided to go back to school. I got a job working till 1:00 AM. I was taking 12 credits and working 38 hours per week. I was sleeping 5 hours per night. I have always been in great shape phyisically from the work I did but with school, work and the two boys (I watched them on Friday's and Saturdays), I didn't have time to exercies. For the first time, I had a few extra pounds. I wasn't sleeping. I was sick at one point for about 4 month strait. I have pictures where I don't even look like myself of last year. I eventually got close enough were I cut out some insurances just to get through this last year. Now I work 16 hours per week and have 15 credits. I watch my boys 2 days per week but it's not bad at all right now. I just took the state entry test for engineering techs and scored number 1 state wide. I have interviews lining up.

I've decided I'm going to continue my education. I'm going to do it slowly though. I don't care if I'm not done till I'm 40, I just can't see me punching out numbers and inspecting work forever. It's already getting boring. I have some ideas, but I don't like to talk about them. I'd rather wait till it materializes and show people.

Everyone I know says they can't believe I made it out of my situation.

I had a few people througout my life that instilled just enough love and belief in me that I wasn't completely lost. I had a grandpa who was a farmer, then when farming went got tough in Aurora Wisconsin, 2 hours north of here (not as ideal for farming as GB), he went to Detroit, worked on machines and then built his own shop on his farm. I grew up there for the first 6 years of my life and visited until I was about 10. He'd work from 6 AM until 7 at night every day, often times on weekends. He was the person I most looked up to in my life and still is. (he died when I was 11).

He was a bit of a bad ass though. Apparently noboyd dared step foot on our property as he shot some guy in the 60's and claimed it to be an accident. That was when he moved to Detroit for a while, the neighbors I talk to now said he was laying low.

I got my work ethic from him and a little bit of the crazy streak too. I once had a few thousand dollars owed to me (just before my 2nd child) and lets just say I got it back the old fashioned way and I didn't sleep to well because I was wondering if I'd be woken up by the police taking me to jail. I had it all figured out though. I didn't do anything that was against the law or make any direct threats. I just got my money back and it looked like I was crazy. No crime in that :)

Anyway, here I am. I'm not in jail. I'm about to get a good job. I don't particularly relate well to people because of what I've been through. Most of the people I associate with today (all of them acctually) are completely the opposite of what I was. Nobody (except my wife) even knows the details. In fact, this will be one fo the first times I've really talked about it in a long time. It acctually feels good ot get it off my chest.


Feel free to judge me. That's fine. I had a tough up bringing and experienced some tough situaitons. Know what though, I take time every day and I look at my boys and almost cry because they are so wonderfull and they do not have to experience anything that I did. I have every intention to make a success out of my life and have security and as poor as we've been, we have money flwoing into our 401K's and IRA's for the last 5 years and it's starting to acctually mean something now.

I know a little something about being on the bottom and I can say, if you give those people just enough money to survive for free, they'll never wake up and do it for themselves. Sorry for rambling on, but my belief in earning what you get in life deosn't come from the perspective of someone who's living at home going to platteville. It comes from someone who was given nothing but a kick out the door and a few articals of clothing at age 18 and has made everything I have with the help of my wife and the inspiration of my kids.



Oh, and I'll say this. As a person who was just scraping by off a fast food job and embessling money, I can say that I believe the #1 reason people are poor is becuase of their up bringing. If they are not taught how to live, it's a bitch to learn at age 18 on your own. I consider myself a pretty smart guy, but there was a time when I didn't even know how to pay a bill. Big deal, right. A bunch of kids don't when they're 16. Well, I was 18, on my own and I had bills. I took my breaks and got out. I can understand if some people never do though. Even still, I don't believe they deserve free money. We are survivors. They will find a way and through that, they will become more than they knew possible. Give people just enough to survive and they will in the lowest of low with no pride in themselves. It's really a sad place to be in my opinion.

I don't feel bad for them though. They have to pick their heads up and make it happen. I could be sitting in jail or working at McDonalds. Instead I took every break, worked my ass off and made it happen.



Great story Nick. I'm not very religious, but I too have a belief in the "teach a man to fish" school of thinking. That truly helps people. That is not giving away "free" money, but rather (much like education) is truly an investment in people that stands a chance of paying dividends over time.

[Scott Campbell]

Who said anything about "giving them money?" And while you're talking about working the system, can you tell me how the system's working or are you criticizing based on assumptions or based on how the system worked 20 years ago?


I work under the "assumption" that the government is extremely inefficient, and often corrupt. Put a dollar in, and watch it shrink to a nickel by the time it comes out the other side and goes to those they intended to help. I don't believe the government should be in the retirement planning business - Social Security - because they will screw it up.

I still believe in trickle down economics, and think the 80's investment tax credit programs spawned unprecedented start up business, job creation and spending that fed our economy for decades. So if Ronald Reagan was an extremist, then I guess I am too. The naturally occurring tax base that this type of policy creates is far more valuable than raising taxes so the government can fund additional programs.

The poverty described here is a social problem. I don't believe the government is responsible for solving all social problems with mandatory tax increases. I don't believe the government is capable of solving all social issues with mandatory tax increases.

[Scott Campbell]

Do you really think the person earning $40,000 as a Radio Shack manager, working 60 hours per week, is paying a larger or smaller percentage of their income on taxes than you do?


The Radio Shack manager is paying a larger percentage of their income on taxes than I do. They're also paying a higher percentage of their income on gas too. So in the spirit of our progressive tax code, maybe we should start another government program so there is a sliding price per gallon at the pump based on their ability to pay.

[RashanGary]

I think people are strong overall. Maybe someone isn't as smart or talented as the next guy, but hard work is more important than just about any natural gift. Any of us can do just about anything we want.

What inspires people to achieve? If someone is lacking a base in common sense, what motivates them to make it better? I believe the will to survive and reproduce is the strongest trait just about every person has. I believe the best solution to the poverty problem is to use what just about all people naturally have. Set up a situation that survival isn't given. You think people are going to drop dead? NO!! They will work their asses off and through the hard work and structure they start devising ways to make it even better. Maybe they'll never get out of their hole but by working to earn everything they have they'll learn common sense. They'll see how the people who got futher made it and they'll tell their kids "hey, I worked harder than I had to and ended up with less than a bunch of people. I'll tell you what, son, you shoot for the stars and do whatever you want in life. If you work your ass off to get there and it iwll happen." Then his kid grows up inspired to achieve and in one generations time, that families problem is solved and all we did is let him do what he was born to do, survive.


The answer is not pity or condecention (if that's a word). Awwww, those poor people, they don't know any better. They have it so hard. They're black. They're poor. Blah blah blah. Know what I say, I say they're strong. They'll make it and in 20 years, their kids will take your kids job because they are inspired to make their lives the best it can be and are willing to work tirelessly to get it. If you're in the middle or upper middle class, you should be happy for these programs. These programs insure people will never learn and by never learning, you (and yoru kids) will have less competition for jobs. I care about poor people though and by caring, I don't mean I pity them and want to hold down. What I mean is I understand they don't know but I believe they are strong enough to learn.

[Scott Campbell]

I like that "audacity to keep" part.....



Just so we are clear, I am a proponent of people keeping more of their own earned money, and spending and investing it as they see fit.

You are for the government taking it away, involuntarily and without permission, so that elected leaders like George Bush and Dick Cheney can take care of us all by spending or investing it as they fit.

[Scott Campbell]

You speak in extreme stereotypes.......


Well there you go again, trying to tie me to Rush with more rhetoric.

Sometimes people end up where they are in life by accident. But many of us end up where we are in life because of choices we make. Poverty is not always accidental. Wealth is not always accidental.

I think your views on big government are in perfect alignment with your previous difficulties in the forum regarding accepting personal accountability.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Radio Shack manager is paying a larger percentage of their income on taxes than I do. They're also paying a higher percentage of their income on gas too. So in the spirit of our progressive tax code, maybe we should start another government program so there is a sliding price per gallon at the pump based on their ability to pay.

If you recognize that lower income people are paying a higher percentage of taxes, than what is your complaint? Why shouldn't people at the bottom want to change the system to get richer people to pay a fairer share?

I would be satisified with a flat tax rate because the reality of our so-called progressive taxes are so regressive.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You speak in extreme stereotypes.......


Well there you go again, trying to tie me to Rush with more rhetoric.

Sometimes people end up where they are in life by accident. But many of us end up where we are in life because of choices we make. Poverty is not always accidental. Wealth is not always accidental.

I compare you to Rush just because you sound so similar.

I have ZERO interest in demonizing the poor or wealthy. In order to talk about a more fair, transparent system, you have to strip away all that rhetoric.

[SkinBasket]

I would be satisified with a flat tax rate because the reality of our so-called progressive taxes are so regressive.

You're more interested in a flat wage rate than a flat tax rate you commie whore.

[Scott Campbell]

Why shouldn't people at the bottom want to change the system to get richer people to pay a fairer share?


Fairer share? You are not entitled to a percentage of my money just because you don't think that life is fair. Is it fair that I am required by law to pay 20x what other Americans have to pay in taxes. Do I get 20x their vote? Do I use 20x the resources that they do? Life isn't fair, and big government isn't going to change that.

I have no problem with paying more taxes than you, and am happy to do so. It becomes a question of how much is too much. And I take exception to the bitching by people who contribute far less to the common good and our tax base than I do because they don't feel like I've given enough. These people don't think twice about taking my money from my kids college fund and my self funded retirement program, just to make up for their own inability to contribute at the same level. It chaffes me that some of these people act like I don't deserve to keep more of my own hard earned money, even though I've contributed more in a year than they might in a lifetime.

Unlike you, I'm not suggesting stealing money from anyone. I'm proposing people keep more of what they earn. And the money we keep does not get hidden under a mattress - it gets pumped back into the economy, and there is more for private philanthropy - without all of the pitfalls of big government waste and corruption.

[RashanGary]

Scott, I agree almost entirely with you (esspecially with the inefficiency of govt. Cut out the inefficiency and everyone will have more because we'll be producing more)

However, I think there is a point where the power of wealth becomes so great that it's no longer what you do, but how much power you have to bully. Competition is lowered because there are only a few elites with the ability to control the huge markets. Warren Buffet recently said they need to find a way to tax the extremely wealhty more. He knows he got there on his own, but I think he sees many of his peers taking advantage of the power, rather than doing anything acctually brilliant (that was my impression of what he said anyway)


I think wealth should be taxed, not income. It should be a straight line wealth tax. By doing that, people who just want to sit on wealth will be taxed to the poitn where it's gone in a matter of time. They would never be able to rest. They'd have to keep earning. It would promote risk taking becuase just sitting on money would be a detriment. This would be a system where you survive based on what you are able to do in this world. I want people to get what they put in, not steam roll with what they already have or were given.

[Scott Campbell]

Scott, I agree almost entirely with you (esspecially with the inefficiency of govt. Cut out the inefficiency and everyone will have more because we'll be producing more)

However, I think there is a point where the power of wealth becomes so great that it's no longer what you do, but how much power you have to bully. Competition is lowered because there are only a few elites with the ability to control the markets.


I think wealth should be taxed, not income. It should be a straight line wealth tax. By doing that, people who just want to sit on wealth will be taxed to the poitn where it's gone in a matter of time. They would never be able to rest. They'd have to keep earning. It would promote risk taking becuase just sitting on money would be a detriment. This would be a system where you survive based on what you are able to do in this world. I want people to get what they put in, not steam roll with what they already have.


It also might create incentive for people to take their ball and go home so to speak. If you had such wealth, what's to keep you from just leaving the country? Costa Rica would be happy to let me keep more of my money, if I'd pump just a little bit of it into their economy instead of the USA's.

[Scott Campbell]

However, I think there is a point where the power of wealth becomes so great that it's no longer what you do, but how much power you have to bully.


Too late. The cat has been out of the bag on that one for a long time. Both parties are rife with conflicts of interest because of the fund raising needed to get elected.

[RashanGary]

Scott, I admire all that you've done. YOu made the right decisions to get where you are in life. Bravo. I think my situation will be pretty good by retirement or before so I'm not complaining or pouting about the current system or anything like that. I acctually try to learn from people who made good decisions, not hate them.


I just think a wealth tax would reward the doers and risk takers more. I think it would promote the never ending effort to earn, rather than the never ending effort to steam roll. The economy would be just rolling. The poor could get up one day and work their asses off and results would be damn near immediate. The rich would have the people behind them hungry and anxious to take risks biting at their ankles. If they made a couple bad decisions they'd be down to middle class before they knew it. Basically, you'd get what you put in. I'm sure those with extreme wealth wwould apose this. Hell, if someone made better decisions, they'd be knocked off with the snap of a finger. The people who would benefit are the doctors, layers, aggressive buisnessmen, motivated, smart, hard workign and so on. . . .

[Scott Campbell]

Cut out the inefficiency and everyone will have more because we'll be producing more.


That's pretty much where my philosophy comes from. Let people keep more of what they make, and they'll work that much harder to earn more. Early retirement becomes less attractive. The tax base grows. And there is more money for taking care of the truly needy, while many of those who choose poverty as a path of least resistance find that working a regular job is easier than taking money from their government.

Competing in life isn't that much different than competing in the NFL. We don't take players from the Packers and Cowboys every year to help out the crappy franchises like the Cardinals. Harlan proposes a world where everybody, and every team goes 8-8. So it's nice and "fair".

Unfortunately, that's been tried in Russia. And the league folded so to speak.

[Scott Campbell]

I just think a wealth tax would reward the doers and risk takers more.


I think Warren Buffet agrees with you. He opposes the elimination of estate taxes. We already tax wealth pretty well with estate taxes. You have to be careful not to go too crazy taxing wealth, or people will take their money and leave the country.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why shouldn't people at the bottom want to change the system to get richer people to pay a fairer share?

Fairer share? You are not entitled to a percentage of my money just because you don't think that life is fair. Is it fair that I am required by law to pay 20x what other Americans have to pay in taxes. Do I get 20x their vote? Do I use 20x the resources that they do? Life isn't fair, and big government isn't going to change that.

Don't know what big government has to do with this discussion.
You earlier agreed that lower income people often pay a higher percentage of their income on taxes.
Here, you are angry that you pay more in absolute dollars.


I have no problem with paying more taxes than you, and am happy to do so.

??? you just got done expressing revulsion at having to pay more than others.

[RashanGary]

Warren Buffet recently suggested something like whta I'm saying. He said the need to find a way to tax the mega wealthy more. He's brilliant and capable to compete with ideas and ambition, but I think he realizes that many of his peers are not so capable and are riding a gravy train.


Edit: haha, beat me to it scott.

For those that won in the current system, I think it would have to be implimented slowly. There has to be some reward for the good decisions that have been made up to now but eventually I think crossing over would make our economy insanely dominate in the world. Motivation, efficiency and rewards for the brilliant would be at an all time high. If you're a great doctor, a brilliant engineer or a genius scientist, this is the country you'd want to live. Everythign you do would be rewarded 10 fold rather than exploited by the person who backed you financially. It no longer would be what you have, but what you do. Scary for the established elite (george Bush for example), wonderfull for the smart and ambitious (warren Buffet for example)

[Harlan Huckleby]

I would be satisified with a flat tax rate because the reality of our so-called progressive taxes are so regressive.

You're more interested in a flat wage rate than a flat tax rate you commie whore.

I am not at all envious or negative towards the wealthy.

i see a very crooked tax system where people who earn more pay a lower rate of taxes.

[Scott Campbell]

Don't know what big government has to do with this discussion.
You earlier agreed that lower income people often pay a higher percentage of their income on taxes.
Here, you are angry that you pay more in absolute dollars.


I have no problem with paying more taxes than you, and am happy to do so.

??? you just got done expressing revulsion at having to pay more than others.


I wasn't expressing revulsion. I was merely pointing out that there are couple of ways you could define "fair" in this situation. You're defining fair in terms of a percentage. I'm saying that your definition requires that some pay 100x more in absolute dollars than others. Now some people may not find that fair. "Fair" is subjective.

[Scott Campbell]

I would be satisified with a flat tax rate because the reality of our so-called progressive taxes are so regressive.

You're more interested in a flat wage rate than a flat tax rate you commie whore.

I am not at all envious or negative towards the wealthy.

i see a very crooked tax system where people who earn more pay a lower rate of taxes.


Is it similarly crooked that you pay a higher percentage of income for gas than others earning more? Why are taxes so different? You typically get a quantity discount for everything else in our economy, so why should tax percentages go up as you earn more? They should go down. At some point, people have contributed enough to our government. There is nothing wrong with non government mandated private philanthropy.

[Scott Campbell]

I am not at all envious or negative towards the wealthy.


Yeah, you just want more of their money.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I wasn't expressing revulsion. I was merely pointing out that there are couple of ways you could define "fair" in this situation. You're defining fair in terms of a percentage. I'm saying that your definition requires that some pay 100x more in absolute dollars than others. Now some people may not find that fair. "Fair" is subjective.

"Fair", philosophically, has been agreed upon by most people for a very long time. The problem is in the details, especially the distortions of reality by advocates.

I think progressive taxes are fair. People who make more can afford to pay a higher rate. But I think it should be a flat tax after about 30K.

Why don't you just state what you think is fair.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You typically get a quantity discount for everything else in our economy, so why should tax percentages go up as you earn more? They should go down. At some point, people have contributed enough to our government.

OK, I'll take this as a clear statement of what you think is fair.

IT actually is rather close to how the system works.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I am not at all envious or negative towards the wealthy.

Yeah, you just want more of their money.

Ya, this is true. But its not because I begrudge you your wealth. I think the tax burden on lower middle class is too much and needs to be shifted.

You essentially are for regressive taxes, and I understand your argument for it.

[Scott Campbell]

I think progressive taxes are fair. People who make more can afford to pay a higher rate.


If forced to choose between "best" and "fair", I'll take best every time. Like I said, I believe in the results of the 80's investment tax credits. People started business because of those so called "loopholes for the rich", and created wealth for themselves while creating jobs for others and contributing more to the tax base. I believe that set the table for the unprecedented economic growth and prosperity of the 90's.

I would not be for a flat tax unless it were accompanied by far lower government spending resulting in a lower amount of absolute dollars confiscated by the government.

Although I am tempted to support a flat tax just because it'll be easier to fill out the forms.

[Scott Campbell]

You essentially are for regressive taxes, and I understand your argument for it.


I am. Though I loath the terms progressive and regressive. The term progressive sounds forward thinking, and regressive has negative connotations as if the concept was somehow evil.

I also believe that a rising tide will raise all ships, and that what is good for the wealthy often ends up benefiting others. I think taking more money from rich people will entice people to retire early, or otherwise not earn (and contribute to the tax base) as much as they are capable of. And that ends up crushing our economy, and doing far more damage to the poor than many imagine.

[Scott Campbell]

And for the record, I believe in investing in education - as long as its efficient and void of corruption. That money comes back ten fold in that it helps create people who contribute to the tax base instead of living off of it.

Teach a man to fish.

[Scott Campbell]

Why don't you just state what you think is fair.


I don't have all the answers. I don't even have a few of the answers. I just believe that blatant wealth redistribution will not be good for the people of this country. And I believe that those with the "screw the rich fucker" mentality are dangerous, and susceptible to the pandering of some in the Democratic party. John Edwards was the worst.

[RashanGary]

And for the record, I believe in investing in education - as long as its efficient and void of corruption. That money comes back ten fold in that it helps create people who contribute to the tax base instead of living off of it.

Teach a man to fish.

I agree.

[Scott Campbell]

I think the tax burden on lower middle class is too much and needs to be shifted.


I think a stronger economy would help shift more people up and out of the lower middle class and working poor.

[RashanGary]

I think a big part of making our economy stronger is finding a way to get more control over the world wide market place. Any money we take from other countries should not be taxed IMO. If our people our going to get rich at some other coutries expense, that helps everyone here.

[Partial]

Partial, are you really so myopic that you've missed Tyrone's point this horridly? I would be sad to think so but you've proven his point quite effectively.

Tyrone is a jackass who doesn't have a point and wants to stroke his own ego.

The point I was saying that Fair Tax is great for the middle man, and is a welcome change from the age old policy of the very poor and the very rich not paying any taxes.

I for one am sick of these bums getting a handout when they don't do anything positive for the world. Time has proven my theory wise that it is futile.

As Tyrone stated, success is relative. No doubt about it, but I don't consider graduating from high school to be a success. I don't consider settling to be a cashier at a grocery store success. These things don't require any brain power or effort to do. People can say that the reality is that there are lots of grocery store cashiers and they should be helped. To that I say no way. There is plenty of room for advancement and with simply applying yourself for a couple of hours everyday instead of just going through the motions you'll be a produce department manager in no time. My point is thing whole thing is most of these cashiers are not unhappy with the way their life is. They have chosen there path and have accepted it. Since they've come to terms with it, so should everyone else and stop pumping money into them.

Typically, the poorer class gets poorer in rough times because they do not know how to manage their money. Something like Fair Tax would make them think twice before going and spending money on frivolous items as they will be taxed heavily once they go over the poverty spending threshold of 24k untaxed.

I'm not some hippie dumbass that thinks Milwaukee Hamilton needs new computers annually and new text books every years, blindly hoping these will improve grades and test scores. Like Scott, I think every dollar the government touches gets wasted. I am all for very little government intervention in our lives because it is unnecessary. 99% of us are civilized and can handle ourselves. Currently, the system is set-up where the 1% bad apples still get the same benefits as a working class low income family that is struggling to get by. Their is a big difference between the two situations in my book, and no one in hell should they be given equal treatment.

I don't know why Tyrone decided to discuss jobs. That has nothing to do with the discussion. My point is the lowest income family that I am close to are barely above the poverty line yet their kids went on to do great things because they sucked it up and did what it took to be a success. How many people in ghetto do this? Very few. Why should money kept being pumped in when failure breeds failure.

As for that dumbass bad mouthing my former school, that is shows the kind of character that he has. This guy consistently runs his yapper whether it be about shitty phones like the HTC Touch or the adequate-at-best engineering school at UW. This guy is such a kook that he actually stated that becoming a pharmacist at 24 making over 120k is NOT successful. Yeah... OK. I'd like to see Tyrone from Yuppieville come up from salary inflated Arizona and make 120k here. I simply do not see it happening. This guy has proven time and time again that he is not only an asshole, but a dumb ass at that.

I don't know how this whole topic shifted, but I think that if the voters knew all about Fair Tax, they'd be all for it. For one, it is pretty much the only way to tax the illegals. I am all for that! Secondly, it will make it impossible for the wealthy to avoid paying taxes unless they don't spend any money or start buying used items. It will also regulate the spending of the poor. Not a lot will change for your average joe posting on this message board.

[Scott Campbell]

Is it possible that Ziggy is unemployed today because somebody out there decided not to take a shot and invest in a business because there's no point if people like Harlan are allowed to confiscate so much of what they earn?

I think its more than possible, and that well intentioned people who think they're solving problems by giving more to the poor by further taxing success are really just screwing themselves.

[MJZiggy]

And for the record, I believe in investing in education - as long as its efficient and void of corruption. That money comes back ten fold in that it helps create people who contribute to the tax base instead of living off of it.

Teach a man to fish.

Exactly what kind of programs do you think we're talking about here, because I'm referring to the social programs (like education and affordable childcare initiatives) that improve people's opportunity to improve their condition and temporarily help out people who need it. I don't condone on any level handing people money and having them live off of it for generations. I don't know that anyone's suggesting that. I'm all for government reform. Clinton did it in '94, I just think they went about it the wrong way and it's since become more bloated and less efficient which is odd considering all the power the Republicans have had during Bush's term. I think it may be time to shake shit up again.

[Partial]

We need a real republican like Ron Paul. He is completely right in thinking that McCain is too much like a democrat. The only government reform we need is to shrink it wayyyy down!

[MJZiggy]

Is it possible that Ziggy is unemployed today because somebody out there decided not to take a shot and invest in a business because there's no point if people like Harlan are allowed to confiscate so much of what they earn?

I think its more than possible, and that well intentioned people who think they're solving problems by giving more to the poor by further taxing success are really just screwing themselves.

Actually, I think that the fact that when I went to the hotjobs site the other day and the daily statistics showed 18K jobs listed with 300K applicants might just have something to do with it.

I would love to start a business, a little yarn shop in the antique district, but I know that there's no way I'm going to get a loan for startup, I know that childcare costs will eat up everything I earn and if I have to hire someone to watch the shop when I'm unavailable, I won't be able to afford to pay the healthcare benefits. It has nothing to do with whether Uncle Sam is going to want a contribution. Maybe I'd be able to get a loan through the SBA, and some business training, but that is one of those inefficient government handouts that you hate so much. Guess that would just be taking money away from rich folks who've earned it so I shouldn't utilize it.

[Scott Campbell]

I would love to start a business, a little yarn shop in the antique district,..........


Hell, I'd love to start a little yarn shop in the antique district too. It sounds like a blast. But I slave away at my job because I have to earn a living - not because its my favorite thing to do in life. I mean no disrespect here, but that sounds more like a lifestyle choice than a business plan. I've read enough from you over the years to be supremely confident that you are a formidable economic entity. I certainly would not bet against you.

[Partial]

write a business plan and see what happens Zig. Scott is right, until you sit down and write a formal plan that you can present to investers you won't get anywhere.

[hoosier]

Working people don't deserve to live in those cool cities. They should only live in montana or the dakotas.

I don't know about the Dakotas, our own forum has a unpleasant record with Dakotans, but Montana is very cool. Beautiful country, lots of beautiful people escape there. I think working people should be settled in Indiana & Ohio where they can be with their kind.

Bite your tongue, Harlan. We don't work here in Indiana, we sit around collecting welfare checks, I mean tax rebates, I mean farm payoffs. But at least we don't have a town called Platteville....

[SkinBasket]

Little did I know so much entertainment was hidden in such a poorly titled thread. Now I'm going to have to read the whole fucking thing.

[GrnBay007]

Some day (after my kids are grown and I'm really established), I plan on helping some kid who's in a bad situation. I'll find someone who's drinking, has a rough family life and really wants to make it happen. I know he won't want help (I never have and denied it when it was offered) but I'll convince one of those messed up little fuckers to take my help and promise to do the same for some kid, some day. It's something I really want to do. Closure or something.


That's cool! And I have a feeling someday when things are extremely stable, you will be able to help out some kid....to what extent, who knows....but your experiences will be a good teacher.

This got me thinking about something that is off topic...but I've seen this type of thing several times and just recently again. Ever see a well off family adopt a baby....and the child ends up getting into all kinds of trouble...even though they've been given opportunities some only dream about? When that happens you hear all kinds of people say that it's all in the genetics and where that baby came from and there is no way to change that. That gives adoption a bad rap. What JH said got me wondering that maybe the reason a child goes on to get in trouble is not so much genetics as it is the "well-off" parents can't relate and adjust to the lifestyle this child has come from because it's totally out of their realm. I've always thought the best teachers are those that have experienced life problems themselves. It's like a substance abuse counselor that never had a problem themselves trying to counsel an addict. The addict has no respect for that teacher because they've never been there themselves. Anyway, just some rambling thoughts, because, like I said I've just encountered this type of thing recently through a work contact.

[MJZiggy]

Some day (after my kids are grown and I'm really established), I plan on helping some kid who's in a bad situation. I'll find someone who's drinking, has a rough family life and really wants to make it happen. I know he won't want help (I never have and denied it when it was offered) but I'll convince one of those messed up little fuckers to take my help and promise to do the same for some kid, some day. It's something I really want to do. Closure or something.


That's cool! And I have a feeling someday when things are extremely stable, you will be able to help out some kid....to what extent, who knows....but your experiences will be a good teacher.

This got me thinking about something that is off topic...but I've seen this type of thing several times and just recently again. Ever see a well off family adopt a baby....and the child ends up getting into all kinds of trouble...even though they've been given opportunities some only dream about? When that happens you hear all kinds of people say that it's all in the genetics and where that baby came from and there is no way to change that. That gives adoption a bad rap. What JH said got me wondering that maybe the reason a child goes on to get in trouble is not so much genetics as it is the "well-off" parents can't relate and adjust to the lifestyle this child has come from because it's totally out of their realm. I've always thought the best teachers are those that have experienced life problems themselves. It's like a substance abuse counselor that never had a problem themselves trying to counsel an addict. The addict has no respect for that teacher because they've never been there themselves. Anyway, just some rambling thoughts, because, like I said I've just encountered this type of thing recently through a work contact.

That's a fascinating concept. They should be studying things like this rather than whether a twin that is not bullied does better than the one who is (duh). Same concept is the priest as a marriage counselor.

[hoosier]

It also might create incentive for people to take their ball and go home so to speak. If you had such wealth, what's to keep you from just leaving the country? Costa Rica would be happy to let me keep more of my money, if I'd pump just a little bit of it into their economy instead of the USA's.

The problem with your "take my marbles and go home" theory is that it vastly oversimplifies the context or contexts in which the rich became rich to begin with. One doesn't make money in a vaccuum, and one doesn't make it in a jungle (literal or metaphorical) either too often. What is often left out of the "got rich" and "pulled himself up by his own bootstraps" stories are the various ways government supports and helps provide opportunities for making money. If it sounds like I'm giving all the credit to Big Government, consider what happens in places where that support doesn't exist, either because official ideology is opposed to it or because the state is just too weak. Ask youself why more wealthy US citizens aren't moving to Costa Rica or some other tax haven.

I have a lot of sympathy for the sentiment that we have too much government in some respects. But I've also lived in countries that had extremely weak states (not just corrupt police and no tradition of law and order, but no support for social services), and I'll take the good old Welfare State over that any day.

[GrnBay007]

I would love to start a business, a little yarn shop in the antique district,..........


Hell, I'd love to start a little yarn shop in the antique district too. It sounds like a blast. But I slave away at my job because I have to earn a living - not because its my favorite thing to do in life. I mean no disrespect here, but that sounds more like a lifestyle choice than a business plan.

I agree. There is a huge difference between a lifestyle choice, earning a living and survival. There are several other things I'd like to do right now, but paying a mortgage and taking care of 2 kids dictate otherwise....so I go to a job everyday that, while it's ok and pays the bills, I can't say I'd rather be doing something else. Time does take it's toll. I've been doing this job for 12 years. Depends on the situation....sometimes the survival part hits you, like JH described, and you have to go with the flow. After I graduated from college, I got a job in my field and worked it 2 years. This was not exactly what I wanted and when my 2 brothers approached me about opening a bar/restaurant business, I took them up on it. The next 3 years were great...probably the best/funnest time of my life. Not to say it wasn't hard work....in addition to the bar/restaurant we had sand volleyball leagues and weekend tournaments with live bands. It was easily 12-14 hours a day with one day off a week. Well, that all ended when the business was destroyed by a fire. Went from one day with income to one day with absolutely NO income. Insurance money was tied up for years because it there was an arson investigation. Unemployment income was barely anything because I was paid 1/2 check and 1/2 cash from the "slush fund". So yeah, that's when survival kicks in. This was before I was married so had no other income to depend on.....had to pay for my home and a car payment. So with a college degree, I went out and worked 3 PT jobs.....worked as a bartender, in a sub shop and got a temp job PT that was a far stretch from my field but at least it paid decent. During this time kept looking for jobs in my field and finally found one.....been there since. Thing is, when survival calls, you do what you need to do....who cares if it's Wendy's (JH) or me working in a sub shop with a college education. Thing is....the ship is never going to come in if you are not out there trying...and taking chances.

[RashanGary]

Nice story 007. It's the same survival concept. People are stronger than they know. They just don't know because they are being held down by people who think they are helping.

There is a little bit of "feel good" that comes with making your own success too. You kind of want to keep it rolling and stack goals on goals as they are accomplished. It's hard to stack goals on goals when all you do is collect a welfare check every week.

I'm not against all social programs either. Medical care to a family that is going back to school after their job gets shipped over seas or to a family who decides they want to go back to school to get an education is good. Maybe child care for a mom that wants to attned school, work and care for her childeren. Things like that. You know, people who are willing to help themselves, but it's just a little bit too far out of reach.

People who do not care to better their situation do not deserve an ounce of help. If you want that cruddy job, that's up to you. If you can't pry yourself away from drugs long enough to have an ounce of real happiness in your life, that's not our problem. Those are not government problems. Those are people problems. Problems they need to deal with on the street for all I care and who knows, maybe it will get bad enough that they hit bottom and turn it around.

[MJZiggy]

Who said I'm not out there trying or taking chances? I only brought up the shop because Scott specifically laid out the reason people don't start businesses as taxes. That would be the least of the reasons I'd have not to start one. And I don't work at Wendy's because while that's great to do when you're single, (and I mean this QUITE literally) it would cost more in after school care for my son than I would make working there. Not to mention the fact that I have to be to the center to pick him up by 6 or I'm paying his child care by the minute. I worked 3 jobs during college too. Big deal. I had no kids, I could work whenever I wanted. Worked full time after too for several years and right now I'm quite occupied with looking for work and don't really appreciate the insinuation that I'd have a job if I only tried. Survival has called. Employers have not. Remember that little statistic I quoted earlier 18K jobs, 300K applicants (and a sinking print newspaper business)...you do the math.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Is it possible that Ziggy is unemployed today because somebody out there decided not to take a shot and invest in a business because there's no point if people like Harlan are allowed to confiscate so much of what they earn?

I think its more than possible, and that well intentioned people who think they're solving problems by giving more to the poor by further taxing success are really just screwing themselves.

I think you misunderstand me, Mr. Campbell. There are aspects to me that people of all political persuasions will find repulsive. I am a bleeding heart, but also very pro-business, a free-trader, happy to have corporate interests at the table. In fact if I were Czar I would eliminate all business and corporate taxes.

As Czar, I would set a standard deduction of $20K, and everybody would pay a flat tax rate for income above that. No social security tax, all income treated identically, no deductions for ANYTHING. I also would have a National Sales Tax and some tarriffs on imports, but no other local tax, user fee would be permited in my kingdom.

Now, you would be pissed because, as a higher income person, you would likely be paying more than in our current regressive system. But I would order your execution with great pleasure, and I expect most wealthy people would come to see a flat tax as not so onerous.

[MJZiggy]

I would love to start a business, a little yarn shop in the antique district,..........


Hell, I'd love to start a little yarn shop in the antique district too. It sounds like a blast. But I slave away at my job because I have to earn a living - not because its my favorite thing to do in life. I mean no disrespect here, but that sounds more like a lifestyle choice than a business plan. I've read enough from you over the years to be supremely confident that you are a formidable economic entity. I certainly would not bet against you.

It sounds like a blast to you, that's fine. Maybe for you it could be viewed that way, but do you know the difference between how an angora will knit up as opposed to a silk mohair blend? If a customer walks in your door with yarn they purchased from you and is having a problem working entrelac for the first time, will you be able to help? I mentioned a yarn shop because I've been crocheting for more than 20 years and have taken up knitting a couple years ago. I will know what to tell a client who wants to make a felted piece and wishes to buy a load of superwool to make it--and how to felt the piece if they don't have a top loading washer. I can explain how to wrap a butterfly for intarsia knitting. The antique district I mentioned, is in my mind because it's the district in the part of town where they can afford $180 a pound for a hand dyed, hand spun yarn. It's not a quaint little lifestyle bit I'm discussing. I know what the hell I'm talking about. (maybe take a look at the website at the bottom of this post before messing with ZigKnit--the background of the company already exists, I just can't do anything with it right now, but get me the right opportunity...)

[Partial]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

[MJZiggy]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

[Partial]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

Yes, I do think he'll miss 100,000,000. I think everyone would.

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

Here's a thought that might blow your mind:

What if all those bums who earn tax free dollars and all those illegal immigrants who earn tax free dollars get taxed via Fair Tax? It may not be a huge amount you get from them but every little bit helps.

Our tax forms are complicated. The CIA cites the literacy rate of American adults at 99% but that is believed to be a percentage or two too high. Figuring there are ~191 million americans, that means there are as many as 5.73 million americans who cannot read. Do you think these people are paying any taxes?!? No, I do not. Do I think a good majority of these people are capable of doing shady, under the table work? Yes, I do.

This might blow your mind too:

Don't you think that the said person being taxed 100,000,000 could do a lot more with that money being provided to private entity instead of going through with the suffocatingly inefficient government? I would rather that money be put to good use like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation instead of being spent on all the bureaucrats working for the government.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

What in hell are you talking about? The wealthy are paying a far lower percentage of their income on taxes than working people, no honest person can dispute this.

The government doesn't knock on rich people's doors when it gets in trouble, it borrows.

Again, your opinions are bases on theories, dogma, not rooted in any reality.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

I would just suggest that you and Scott Campbell have very extreme views.

I imagine 90% of people in the country accept that taxes should be based on a percentage of income. And most wealthy people are not unhappy about paying their taxes on this basis.

[MJZiggy]

Partial, two questions,

1. What's the billionaire spending his nine hundred million dollars (that he has after taxes, and before tax shelters, loopholes, etc.) on that he will miss that last hundred million?

2. How does Uncle Sam know when you've reached your $24K limit for the flat tax so it can now start taxing your expenditures?

[Partial]

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

What in hell are you talking about? The wealthy are paying a far lower percentage of their income on taxes than working people, no honest person can dispute this.

The government doesn't knock on rich people's doors when it gets in trouble, it borrows.

Again, your opinions are bases on theories, dogma, not rooted in any reality.

Yes, % they are paying less. But 1% of 1 billion is a hell of a lot more than 100% of 50,000.

[Partial]

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

I would just suggest that you and Scott Campbell have very extreme views.

I imagine 90% of people in the country accept that taxes should be based on a percentage of income. And most wealthy people are not unhappy about paying their taxes on this basis.

Thats because the really, really rich people can afford not to pay taxes. The people with the 100-300k income are not at that level and foot the bill for just about everything.

[Partial]

Partial, two questions,

1. What's the billionaire spending his nine hundred million dollars (that he has after taxes, and before tax shelters, loopholes, etc.) on that he will miss that last hundred million?

2. How does Uncle Sam know when you've reached your $24K limit for the flat tax so it can now start taxing your expenditures?

1. It doesn't matter. Maybe setting up another enterprise to provide jobs? Maybe hiring a playboy bunny wait staff. I have no idea. The point is its a lot of money and he/she should be able to do with it what they want. They shouldn't have to pay exponentially more for the same services.

2. Nevermind, I am an idiot. Every month you get a check from uncle sam. Everything that you buy has the 30% tax on it.

[MJZiggy]

Oh wait, I have one more question: If you want every male to be required to do military service for two years, and we're in peacetime which means that we need less of an army (I'm speaking hypothetically, no need to remind me about Iraq, thanks), how are you paying for your overly bloated military force while still cutting the share of the taxes that the extremely wealthy are forced to pay because now they don't have to pay any more than some dude making $50K a year?

[Partial]

Oh wait, I have one more question: If you want every male to be required to do military service for two years, and we're in peacetime which means that we need less of an army (I'm speaking hypothetically, no need to remind me about Iraq, thanks), how are you paying for your overly bloated military force while still cutting the share of the taxes that the extremely wealthy are forced to pay because now they don't have to pay any more than some dude making $50K a year?

Volunteer.

[MJZiggy]

Every month you get a check from uncle sam. Everything that you buy has the 30% tax on it.

Huh? Uncle Sam is sending a check to every person in the country every month? And everything you buy has a 30% tax?

[the_idle_threat]

Some folks talk about getting rid of social programs for the poor in order to cause bottoming out so that the poor are motivated to better themselves through hard work. That's an outstanding theory, but it ignores the other option on the table: crime.

If society allows people to be beaten down by life to the point where the survival instinct kicks in, some of these "have-nots" will surely turn to hard work, and become the subject of a schmaltzy movie like "The Pursuit of Happyness." But those who don't have the intellectual gifts of the guy in that movie, or (supposedly) our very own JustinHarrell/GregJennings/NickCollins/etc., might find it much easier to just take what they need and want from the "haves."

Robin Hood is a folk hero---do you know what he was all about? Robbing the rich to give to the poor?

Now somebody like Scott might argue that Robin Hood is alive and well and he's dressed in Red White and Blue, pointing at you. But Uncle Sam doesn't stick a pistol in your face when he takes a share, and he doesn't pull the trigger because you looked him in the eye.

Income redistribution is inevitable. If we get rid of the governmental method, we'll get a whole lot more of the "do-it-yourself" method.

And when those of you who made the "right" decisions and got to keep "your" money (never mind the government-controlled financial and regulatory structure that allowed you to get where you are) are looking down the barrel of a gun or reading a ransom note, you might realize then---perhaps too late---that the governmental method is superior to the "do-it-yourself" method of income redistribution after all.

Maybe this would not be the case in a perfect world, but a perfect world this is not.

[RashanGary]

This country had a flat (10% I believe) tax leading up to the great depression. There were a few extremely wealthy people who owned everything. Their wealth steam rolled. The rest borrowed and eventually the bubble popped.


I thought this person did a decent, short enough, readable rendition of the events leading up to the great depression.

http://ttokarnak.home.att.net/Depression.html

Clearly the banking and buisness practices were bad, but the low tax on the wealthy lead to the elite steam rolling all of America's wealth. The working class could always borrow and borrow they did. Sounds great, right. Just as a Regan Conservative, the more the rich have, the more they can borrow to the ambitious, right. Well, what ends up happening in these situations is an income gap forms. Eventually almost everything is owned and controlled by the elite few.

I have no problem with wealth. In fact, I hope to do alright over the course of my life but there are points where it starts getting out of hand. There has to be a way to tax the highest level more than the lower levels because wealth begets wealth in a way that has nothing to do with personal choices, abiliyt or ambition at some point. AT some point it becomes domination through power and at that point none of us really stand a chance.

It sounds wonderfull, but this country had a flat 10% tax at one time. It blew up in everyones face.

I think Warren Buffet has the right idea. You don't kill the upper-middle, you set up a system where they can jump into the elite and a system where the elite have to be smart to maintain and grow their wealth. A system where the cream rises to the top, not where your grandpa rose and you ride his coattails at the top.

[Partial]

Every month you get a check from uncle sam. Everything that you buy has the 30% tax on it.

Huh? Uncle Sam is sending a check to every person in the country every month? And everything you buy has a 30% tax?

Yep. You get a check every month.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FTRebate.png

[Partial]

Snip

Crime is already terrible. I don't foresee it having much affect.

[the_idle_threat]

Snip

Crime is already terrible. I don't foresee it having much affect.

You honestly believe it cannot get worse? To put it kindly, you're very naive.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

By what example did they learn (like you had the example to learn from) better than their actions reflect? We learn by example. Who taught these kids the right way to live and manage money and take care of themselves? Should is nice, but you have to work with the world the way it is, not the way it should be, and by giving up on these people you still haven't solved your panhandling problem, and by the way, have you ever noticed how many of them are vets?

MJZiggy,

There really isn't point in discussing this. Partial is a college student who lives at home. He has a safety net, yet doesn't even realize it.

Even after he leaves home he still will have that net, and as i'm willing to bet his folks would let him live at their house if things got rough.

He knows nothing of being completely self sufficient. He knows nothing about being poor...he thinks because he has no money or very little in college that he is poor.

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

Ha. Rip on Platteville. That's funny because I see Platteville engineers placing better with higher salaries than the pompass asses of Madison. That's true I didn't apply myself in high school, not that I need to explain myself to some douche bag who thinks he is the shit because he went to madison...

As for what I referenced as a family, the oldest one is 25 and they are pretty damn successful yet came from a very poor family. All that is implying is that lower income working class families who want to be successful can be, it all comes down to attitude.

What exactly do you do for a living Tyrone? I'd be curious to know. Do you toot your horn about being a badger to your co-workers in salary inflated Phoenix?

Your anecdotal evidence is just that. If you think UW graduates don't start with higher salaries and better companies than you are just kidding yourself.

Platteville doesn't even use the same textbooks.

You again, prove my point. I don't think i'm the shit because i went to madison. My point is that every has different standards to judge. But, by any objective standard, going to madison is better than going to plattville..academically speaking.

Successful: Again you miss the point. That is YOUR definition of success. Others wouldn't feel that way. My viewpoint is not relevant. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in your argument.

What does tyrone do for a living. Not relevant. Not here to discuss my success or failures.

No, i don't toot my horn...pretty much ever. I don't feel the need. And, if you think Phx is salary inflated, you just show your ignorance of the market. Salaries are lower here than other places.

You should just shut your mouth and learn. You are a college student...you haven't learned very much in life. To quote the great Earl Weaver, "it is what you learn after you know it all that counts."

Consider that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

Ding ding ding. Madison's engineering program is the 4th best in the state if you include Michigan tech. Laughable :lol: :lol: One could argue Marquette is better as well

I know 4 or 5 good students from Madison that went on to take 40k engineering jobs out of school, where you Platteville graduate was taking 50-60k for a job in Iowa or Illinois in a town with lower cost of living :lol:

Wow. You show a marked lack of knowledge regarding economics. Of course Iowa or lower cost cities pay more...how else are they going to attract talent. For the most part, people don't wanna live in rural areas.

It is simple supply and demand.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You know, that is one thing that I hate about Madison. Tyrone is implying that he is superior because he came from a rich family and went to Madison. That's bullshit. It's a good school and all, but I sure as hell am smarter than my girlfriend who graduated with a 3.9 gpa in biology from there.

It's actually kind of an interesting parallel because it shows how irrelevant brains are and how important is. I could get the same degree from UWM as her and I'd make 10k-30k less per year than her simply because she'll have the UW crest on her diploma and I wouldn't.

Definitely shows the value of hard work imo. You start young and the fruits will pay off later.

Unless you go for engineering, then going to any number of schools would get you more money.

I am certainly not suggesting that i'm superior based on what my parents did or the school i attended.

Why would i engage in that thought process when it would certainly lead to inferioty complex compared to others i know that attended ivies.

As for your girlfriend, how do you know you are smarter. And, even if you are..she is certainly out working you..or at least doing what she should. Nice to denigrate a 3.9.

Lastly, why would you compare two different students with 2 different majors. Pretty much useless.

And, now you contradict yourself by noting the value of the UW degree. So, i guess only engineering isn't affected. LOL

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Partial, are you really so myopic that you've missed Tyrone's point this horridly? I would be sad to think so but you've proven his point quite effectively.

Thank you. For a moment i felt like i was going crazy.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I know a little something about being on the bottom and I can say, if you give those people just enough money to survive for free, they'll never wake up and do it for themselves.


While I don't think that is universally true, I do believe there is some truth there. At some point you are just enabling un-desireable behavior by making it easier to work the system than to work a job.

No argument with that. The classic handout vs. hand up argument.

I love bringing up the dependency argument in regards to Iraq. Why would they ever get better when they know we'll continue to help them.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Cut out the inefficiency and everyone will have more because we'll be producing more.


That's pretty much where my philosophy comes from. Let people keep more of what they make, and they'll work that much harder to earn more. Early retirement becomes less attractive. The tax base grows. And there is more money for taking care of the truly needy, while many of those who choose poverty as a path of least resistance find that working a regular job is easier than taking money from their government.

Competing in life isn't that much different than competing in the NFL. We don't take players from the Packers and Cowboys every year to help out the crappy franchises like the Cardinals. Harlan proposes a world where everybody, and every team goes 8-8. So it's nice and "fair".

Unfortunately, that's been tried in Russia. And the league folded so to speak.

Actually, the league does exactly the opposite. it rewards poor performance by giving better draft picks to the poorer teams. It redistributes wealth to all the teams. It has a salary cap so that the field is level for all. Otherwise the big market teams would outspend everyone.

And, the league is just that..a league. You don't have teams really competing against each other...if you did you wouldn't need the anti trust exemption the NFL receives.

What you are talking about is baseball...and it is in poor shape. The NFL is the most succesful league because of everything you think they don't do.

How you missed this scott, is unfathomable..since i know you are a fairly bright individual

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

Yes, I do think he'll miss 100,000,000. I think everyone would.

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

Here's a thought that might blow your mind:

What if all those bums who earn tax free dollars and all those illegal immigrants who earn tax free dollars get taxed via Fair Tax? It may not be a huge amount you get from them but every little bit helps.

Our tax forms are complicated. The CIA cites the literacy rate of American adults at 99% but that is believed to be a percentage or two too high. Figuring there are ~191 million americans, that means there are as many as 5.73 million americans who cannot read. Do you think these people are paying any taxes?!? No, I do not. Do I think a good majority of these people are capable of doing shady, under the table work? Yes, I do.

This might blow your mind too:

Don't you think that the said person being taxed 100,000,000 could do a lot more with that money being provided to private entity instead of going through with the suffocatingly inefficient government? I would rather that money be put to good use like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation instead of being spent on all the bureaucrats working for the government.

Again with your HUGE BIAS. Because someone is stupid or illiterate they must be doing criminal acts? LOL

BTW, if they are doing under the table work..then some business owner is committing a crime. Why don't you examine the businesses that take advantage of this. We are doing just that in az...and guess who is opposing it..BUSINESS. I can't wait to see the economy tank and prices rise. Then we all will be begging for those "illegals" that are ruining this country.

Perhaps we should examine the really smart people that commit crimes...like the enron dudes, mike milken, tyco, MCI, etc.

Do you actually believe that having more money equates to better morality. You are laughable.

[MJZiggy]

Snip

Crime is already terrible. I don't foresee it having much affect.

You're nuts if you really believe that. Take a look at Michigan for awhile, I believe it's specifically the Detroit area if I recall right. They're having a lot of fun over there...

Maybe you missed it when I said it before, but there are people in the world who have never met you who REALLY HATE you just for your status and all the opportunity you've been given and will be perfectly happy to head to your neighborhood and steal your car because it's easier to lose than the Mercedes' and Beamers. They are also perfectly willing to mug you and take your wallet and your girlfriend's purse. Giuliani always took a lot of credit for the decrease in crime in NYC (now that was some crime) and I sometimes wonder if it had more to do with the dot com bubble than anything he did.

Also, they're right when they speak of the definitions of success being subjective because yours and mine are certainly not the same.

[MJZiggy]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

Yes, I do think he'll miss 100,000,000. I think everyone would.

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

Here's a thought that might blow your mind:

What if all those bums who earn tax free dollars and all those illegal immigrants who earn tax free dollars get taxed via Fair Tax? It may not be a huge amount you get from them but every little bit helps.

Our tax forms are complicated. The CIA cites the literacy rate of American adults at 99% but that is believed to be a percentage or two too high. Figuring there are ~191 million americans, that means there are as many as 5.73 million americans who cannot read. Do you think these people are paying any taxes?!? No, I do not. Do I think a good majority of these people are capable of doing shady, under the table work? Yes, I do.

This might blow your mind too:

Don't you think that the said person being taxed 100,000,000 could do a lot more with that money being provided to private entity instead of going through with the suffocatingly inefficient government? I would rather that money be put to good use like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation instead of being spent on all the bureaucrats working for the government.

Again with your HUGE BIAS. Because someone is stupid or illiterate they must be doing criminal acts? LOL

BTW, if they are doing under the table work..then some business owner is committing a crime. Why don't you examine the businesses that take advantage of this. We are doing just that in az...and guess who is opposing it..BUSINESS. I can't wait to see the economy tank and prices rise. Then we all will be begging for those "illegals" that are ruining this country.

Perhaps we should examine the really smart people that commit crimes...like the enron dudes, mike milken, tyco, MCI, etc.

Do you actually believe that having more money equates to better morality. You are laughable.

Just a sidenote and kinda changing the subject, but we had some nice weather a couple days ago so I went to Home Depot to buy some bags of gravel and sand to do some work I'm doing in my yard and I just want it noted for the record that when I got to my car to load the bags (that possibly weigh more than I do) into my car, it wasn't the store employees or the rich dudes walking back to their luxury cars that gave me a hand. A day laborer who was hanging out at the front of the store followed me to the car and asked me to stop when I started hauling the bags and he did it for me--and took the cart back up to the front of the store. He's got no real hope of great employment in this country. Must be a thug or something, right?

[Partial]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

Yes, I do think he'll miss 100,000,000. I think everyone would.

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

Here's a thought that might blow your mind:

What if all those bums who earn tax free dollars and all those illegal immigrants who earn tax free dollars get taxed via Fair Tax? It may not be a huge amount you get from them but every little bit helps.

Our tax forms are complicated. The CIA cites the literacy rate of American adults at 99% but that is believed to be a percentage or two too high. Figuring there are ~191 million americans, that means there are as many as 5.73 million americans who cannot read. Do you think these people are paying any taxes?!? No, I do not. Do I think a good majority of these people are capable of doing shady, under the table work? Yes, I do.

This might blow your mind too:

Don't you think that the said person being taxed 100,000,000 could do a lot more with that money being provided to private entity instead of going through with the suffocatingly inefficient government? I would rather that money be put to good use like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation instead of being spent on all the bureaucrats working for the government.

Again with your HUGE BIAS. Because someone is stupid or illiterate they must be doing criminal acts? LOL

BTW, if they are doing under the table work..then some business owner is committing a crime. Why don't you examine the businesses that take advantage of this. We are doing just that in az...and guess who is opposing it..BUSINESS. I can't wait to see the economy tank and prices rise. Then we all will be begging for those "illegals" that are ruining this country.

Perhaps we should examine the really smart people that commit crimes...like the enron dudes, mike milken, tyco, MCI, etc.

Do you actually believe that having more money equates to better morality. You are laughable.

Maybe you should get a brain. I said they're not filling tax returns because they cannot read the complex forms.

A good majority of the illegals are being paid under the table as well.

[Partial]

Snip

Crime is already terrible. I don't foresee it having much affect.

You're nuts if you really believe that. Take a look at Michigan for awhile, I believe it's specifically the Detroit area if I recall right. They're having a lot of fun over there...

Maybe you missed it when I said it before, but there are people in the world who have never met you who REALLY HATE you just for your status and all the opportunity you've been given and will be perfectly happy to head to your neighborhood and steal your car because it's easier to lose than the Mercedes' and Beamers. They are also perfectly willing to mug you and take your wallet and your girlfriend's purse. Giuliani always took a lot of credit for the decrease in crime in NYC (now that was some crime) and I sometimes wonder if it had more to do with the dot com bubble than anything he did.

Also, they're right when they speak of the definitions of success being subjective because yours and mine are certainly not the same.

I don't understand what your point is. Detroit is the #1 city in the country for murders. There is plenty of crime there. I am pretty sure Milwaukee is right behind it, though I don't want to open another tab to find out.

As to paragraph 2, that makes them thugs. They would rather steal my car than flip burgers. In my grandfathers day, that was called opportunity.

I will define myself as a sucess when I see that I am happy with my life, and am prosporous and raise a family of well-rounded, smart kids who know the value of hard work and will give everything in life everything they've got. I don't know when success came into the conversation yet again. As ghetto 2 ghetto and experience have shown me, most of these people consider success when they get a little extra money so they can go buy something new, not ever even considering saving it to leave the ghetto.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

Yes, I do think he'll miss 100,000,000. I think everyone would.

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

Here's a thought that might blow your mind:

What if all those bums who earn tax free dollars and all those illegal immigrants who earn tax free dollars get taxed via Fair Tax? It may not be a huge amount you get from them but every little bit helps.

Our tax forms are complicated. The CIA cites the literacy rate of American adults at 99% but that is believed to be a percentage or two too high. Figuring there are ~191 million americans, that means there are as many as 5.73 million americans who cannot read. Do you think these people are paying any taxes?!? No, I do not. Do I think a good majority of these people are capable of doing shady, under the table work? Yes, I do.

This might blow your mind too:

Don't you think that the said person being taxed 100,000,000 could do a lot more with that money being provided to private entity instead of going through with the suffocatingly inefficient government? I would rather that money be put to good use like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation instead of being spent on all the bureaucrats working for the government.

Again with your HUGE BIAS. Because someone is stupid or illiterate they must be doing criminal acts? LOL

BTW, if they are doing under the table work..then some business owner is committing a crime. Why don't you examine the businesses that take advantage of this. We are doing just that in az...and guess who is opposing it..BUSINESS. I can't wait to see the economy tank and prices rise. Then we all will be begging for those "illegals" that are ruining this country.

Perhaps we should examine the really smart people that commit crimes...like the enron dudes, mike milken, tyco, MCI, etc.

Do you actually believe that having more money equates to better morality. You are laughable.

Just a sidenote and kinda changing the subject, but we had some nice weather a couple days ago so I went to Home Depot to buy some bags of gravel and sand to do some work I'm doing in my yard and I just want it noted for the record that when I got to my car to load the bags (that possibly weigh more than I do) into my car, it wasn't the store employees or the rich dudes walking back to their luxury cars that gave me a hand. A day laborer who was hanging out at the front of the store followed me to the car and asked me to stop when I started hauling the bags and he did it for me--and took the cart back up to the front of the store. He's got no real hope of great employment in this country. Must be a thug or something, right?

Prolly was hoping you'd fall prey to his seductive latin charm (assuming latino), fall for him, let him move in and you'd work as he sat at home drinking cervezas. :P

Your experience mirrors mine with day laborers. When i moved my brother from houston to phx, we went out and found two "illegals" on the street. Those two loaded the truck for a solid 2.5 hours, no breaks, no water, NO NOTHING...and did it like professionals..everything loaded the best possible way. We had offered 20 per..we gave them a 20 buck tip. You'd be hard pressed to find one white citizen who'd do the job, let alone for that pay..and with no breaks.

But, i'm sure they just used the cash to buy rims or waste on 40s. :roll:

[MJZiggy]

Maybe you should get a brain. I said they're not filling tax returns because they cannot read the complex forms.

A good majority of the illegals are being paid under the table as well.

If they're not filling out tax forms because they can't read them, they get arrested, unless they make so little money that they would only be owed a refund anyway, in which case what are you complaining about?

How else is an illegal supposed to survive. Remember the whole illegal part? That's what makes their labor so attractive. They do the work without asking for SSI benefits, insurance (not saying their lack of insurance isn't expensive but the guy hiring them gets to share the cost with everyone), paperwork or anything else. He pays the guy in cash and has no added cost. That's on the employer more than the illegal. If they don't want illegals working under the table doing crap jobs you wouldn't touch, then don't hire them.

[Partial]

I am sure those mexicans worked their ass off for that money. But is that fair that you and I are taxed upwards of 25% for me and probably 50% for you to the dollar, and they get off scott free? At the same time, you're paying for health insurance where as they can walk into any facility and get free care. Not only are you paying for yourself to go the doctor then, but these yahoos as well.

Fair Tax will at least force them to pay up quite a bit. And if they aren't citizens then they won't get their rebate checks. And good riddance. Hopefully they'll go back to mexico then.

[Partial]

Maybe you should get a brain. I said they're not filling tax returns because they cannot read the complex forms.

A good majority of the illegals are being paid under the table as well.

If they're not filling out tax forms because they can't read them, they get arrested, unless they make so little money that they would only be owed a refund anyway, in which case what are you complaining about?

How else is an illegal supposed to survive. Remember the whole illegal part? That's what makes their labor so attractive. They do the work without asking for SSI benefits, insurance (not saying their lack of insurance isn't expensive but the guy hiring them gets to share the cost with everyone), paperwork or anything else. He pays the guy in cash and has no added cost. That's on the employer more than the illegal. If they don't want illegals working under the table doing crap jobs you wouldn't touch, then don't hire them.


:lol: :lol: :lol: You think the IRS audits all the poor people and the uneducated who don't file :lol: :lol: :lol:

You're living in a dream world.

As for the illegal part, the only thing an employer should provide them with is a plane ticket and parachute. How unethical is that? Tyrone, leader of the moral police, did the same damn thing. It is both the employers fault for not having any morals, and the illegals fault for being an illegal in the first place.

I back Huckabee 100% in his no amnesty stance.

[MJZiggy]

:lol: :lol: :lol: You think the IRS audits all the poor people and the uneducated who don't file :lol: :lol: :lol:

You're living in a dream world.

As for the illegal part, the only thing an employer should provide them with is a plane ticket and parachute. How unethical is that? Tyrone, leader of the moral police, did the same damn thing. It is both the employers fault for not having any morals, and the illegals fault for being an illegal in the first place.

I back Huckabee 100% in his no amnesty stance.

No, I don't think the IRS audits any of the poor people who don't file, because almost invariably they don't owe anything--they are owed refunds.

But the fear of the IRS is a whole lot different than what the IRS will really do. And the illegals? DAMN them for wanting a better life!! How DARE they! So ship em all back to where they came from!! Now who's picking your fruits and veggies? You gonna do it? I didn't think so.

[MJZiggy]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

[Partial]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Harlan proposes a world where everybody, and every team goes 8-8. So it's nice and "fair".

Unfortunately, that's been tried in Russia. And the league folded so to speak.

:lol: :lol: maybe you posted this a while ago, just caught it.

All I proposed is a tax system that taxes everyone at the same rate (after a 20K standard deduction.)

By your standards this is communism!? If you are afraid of paying the same tax rate as middle income people, the current system must be treating you very well indeed.

[SkinBasket]

I will define myself as a sucess when I see that I am happy with my life...

Judging from all your pompous, naive ramblings, you should get ready for a long run of failure. Don't have kids until you understand what is wrong with the Partial of 2008. They'll hate you. Your wife probably will too. Hell, you represent half of the shit you've claimed you hate in this thread, so I guess you should add yourself to the list of people who will hate you.

You remind me of a confused monkey throwing poo at anything and everything it lays its eyes on, including the mirror.

Now get back to work so you can earn that tax rebate you're stealing from my family. Especially since you're trying so hard to get out of paying taxes this year you burden to society.

[MJZiggy]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

[Partial]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

[MJZiggy]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

Good. What are you learning from the people you're helping?

[SkinBasket]

Detroit is the #1 city in the country for murders. There is plenty of crime there. I am pretty sure Milwaukee is right behind it, though I don't want to open another tab to find out.

Spend some time in south Detroit you Oblivion. Hell, go to Compton, since it's obviously worse than Milwaukee. While you're there, make sure you tell everyone you meet your views on taxes, work, and opportunity. I'm sure when you tell everyone that there's nothing but sunshine and scholarships out there for them, they'll hoist you on their shoulders. Or they might shoot you, then rape you, then put hooker make-up on you.

[hoosier]

I will define myself as a sucess when I see that I am happy with my life...

Judging from all your pompous, naive ramblings, you should get ready for a long run of failure. Don't have kids until you understand what is wrong with the Partial of 2008. They'll hate you. Your wife probably will too. Hell, you represent half of the shit you've claimed you hate in this thread, so I guess you should add yourself to the list of people who will hate you.

You remind me of a confused monkey throwing poo at anything and everything it lays its eyes on, including the mirror.

Now get back to work so you can earn that tax rebate you're stealing from my family. Especially since you're trying so hard to get out of paying taxes this year you burden to society.

LOL.

http://www.crookston.k12.mn.us/chs/studentweb/2005-06_sem2/just4fun/pics/monkey%20poo.jpg

[Partial]

Detroit is the #1 city in the country for murders. There is plenty of crime there. I am pretty sure Milwaukee is right behind it, though I don't want to open another tab to find out.

Spend some time in south Detroit you Oblivion. Hell, go to Compton, since it's obviously worse than Milwaukee. While you're there, make sure you tell everyone you meet your views on taxes, work, and opportunity. I'm sure when you tell everyone that there's nothing but sunshine and scholarships out there for them, they'll hoist you on their shoulders. Or they might shoot you, then rape you, then put hooker make-up on you.

That would happen exactly as you say. And that proves my point. All these social programs exist yet they aren't willing to go and work to improve their social status.

Oh, and I think your an absolute idiot for your stealing your families tax dollars comment. What about when you were ages 14-25?!? You were stealing my families tax dollars then. So STFU with that BS.

[MJZiggy]

Partial, do you read the news AT ALL? Detroit is in shambles because the economy there is collapsing, unemployment is running out of control whether people want to work or not. Saying they don't want to work is like blaming the Pennsylvania steelworkers for the industry collapse in the late 70's. This is the same damn type of thing. It's not their fault the auto industry that they've worked in all their lives is laying them off in droves.

Entire freaking towns of people with no work for them went belly up. If the coputer industry ever goes down and the Milwaukee economy collapses, you're toast my friend and are you going to want people saying that Partial in Milwaukee doesn't really want to work?

[Charles Woodson]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

How the hell do you spend "a significant amount of time volunteering annually" if your always on packer rats... And i sincerely doubt that you helped 6 people out. Maybe one, but lets face it were on a forum that we can say anything and no one will know the difference, Like earlier when you mentioned that A. you have a girlfriend B. she went to Madison and C. that she had a 3.9 in bio is most likely complete bull shit...

But hey if you wana live in your own perfectly fucked up imaginary world, go righhtt ahead.

[Partial]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

How the hell do you spend "a significant amount of time volunteering annually" if your always on packer rats... And i sincerely doubt that you helped 6 people out. Maybe one, but lets face it were on a forum that we can say anything and no one will know the difference, Like earlier when you mentioned that A. you have a girlfriend B. she went to Madison and C. that she had a 3.9 in bio is most likely complete bull shit...

But hey if you wana live in your own perfectly fucked up imaginary world, go righhtt ahead.

I disagree with you.

[Charles Woodson]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

How the hell do you spend "a significant amount of time volunteering annually" if your always on packer rats... And i sincerely doubt that you helped 6 people out. Maybe one, but lets face it were on a forum that we can say anything and no one will know the difference, Like earlier when you mentioned that A. you have a girlfriend B. she went to Madison and C. that she had a 3.9 in bio is most likely complete bull shit...

But hey if you wana live in your own perfectly fucked up imaginary world, go righhtt ahead.

I disagree with you.

That makes me care why?

[Partial]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

How the hell do you spend "a significant amount of time volunteering annually" if your always on packer rats... And i sincerely doubt that you helped 6 people out. Maybe one, but lets face it were on a forum that we can say anything and no one will know the difference, Like earlier when you mentioned that A. you have a girlfriend B. she went to Madison and C. that she had a 3.9 in bio is most likely complete bull shit...

But hey if you wana live in your own perfectly fucked up imaginary world, go righhtt ahead.

I disagree with you.

That makes me care why?

Alright then.

[Charles Woodson]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out
first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

How the hell do you spend "a significant amount of time volunteering annually" if your always on packer rats... And i sincerely doubt that you helped 6 people out. Maybe one, but lets face it were on a forum that we can say anything and no one will know the difference, Like earlier when you mentioned that A. you have a girlfriend B. she went to Madison and C. that she had a 3.9 in bio is most likely complete bull shit...

But hey if you wana live in your own perfectly fucked up imaginary world, go righhtt ahead.

I disagree with you.

See my point here is that i dont know anything about you, ive never met you and so without having any real knowledge of you i made a unfair statement with no way for you to defend yourself.

Now how is that different from what your doing with Detroit, and the lower class people.

[Partial]

I could defend myself except I don't see a reason to.

Detroit has a lot of crime. That isn't judging. That is a fact!

I have no problems with lower class families. I have problems with thugs and gangsters who ruin cities and go around shooting people. Rarely is it ever the middle class or the upper class that is doing this.

Read the article Michelle just posted about Milwaukee. Disgusting.

Last year a Jimmy John's driver was shot and killed over what little money he had on him. Disgusting.

I have 4 friends who live on 15th and Kilborne. Each one has had a gun held to their head on their front porch on different occasions. They live about as close to Marquette's campus as you can live. Disgusting.

I believe it was two weekends ago where a miller delivery driver was shot up by two Mexicans over in the barrio for no reason at all other than to rob him. Disgusting.



You tell me..

[MJZiggy]

As I recall, the leaders of the New York mafia were reportedly living pretty well...

Crime is disgusting, true, but don't you think there's the possibility that in Detroit where there are no jobs to be had that desperate men resort to desperate measures they might not otherwise consider?

[Partial]

As I recall, the leaders of the New York mafia were reportedly living pretty well...

Crime is disgusting, true, but don't you think there's the possibility that in Detroit where there are no jobs to be had that desperate men resort to desperate measures they might not otherwise consider?

Yes, I do. Do I think that is any different than what those people did to say a Jimmy Johns driver? No, not really. Just because you're going through hard times does not make it okay to end someone else's life.

Crime has been bad in Detroit for years. I don't blame the auto industries recent problems for that at all. It is just the type of people that frequent the area with less police policing the area.

[MJZiggy]

Were they trying to end his life or rob him for some cash?

[BallHawk]

I agree with Partial here. Detroit has been "worst in the country" bad for the last 30+ years. Detroit isn't bad as a city, it's the pockets of the city that make the crime bad. That is due to a number of reasons and one cannot be held solely responsible for the city's crime.

Detroit us nowhere comparable with Milwaukee, however. Detroit is rated as the most dangerous city in the country. Milwaukee isn't even top 25. Hell, places like Orlando and Little Rock are more dangerous than Milwaukee.

MKE still has a lot of disgusting shit that goes on, though. I mean, when a pizza delivery guy gets killed for a few bills you have serious issues.

[Partial]

Were they trying to end his life or rob him for some cash?

Does it really matter? Say the Driver even had 5k on him. Is that really going to change their life that much to risk potentially killing someone??

You are not looking to only injure someone when you shoot them multiple times.

I honestly am stunned that I am hearing this garbage. Were they trying to rob him. Pffft. They killed and man and should be taken out back and sent to hell where Murderer's belong.

[MJZiggy]

Were they trying to end his life or rob him for some cash?

Does it really matter? Say the Driver even had 5k on him. Is that really going to change their life that much to risk potentially killing someone??

You are not looking to only injure someone when you shoot them multiple times.

I honestly am stunned that I am hearing this garbage. Were they trying to rob him. Pffft. They killed and man and should be taken out back and sent to hell where Murderer's belong.

I asked a question. I don't recall making a judgment. I'm not local. I haven't seen the story. Quit trying to project shit on me because you don't like what the dude did.

[BallHawk]

Were they trying to end his life or rob him for some cash?

None of these guys go out looking to end somebody's life. They go out looking for money and valuables. However, as we all know, it escalates into something worse.

Zig, I believe you live in a county (PG) which is arguably the most divided in the nation. Rich whites on one side and poorer blacks on the other side. It's the animosity between the two races which can cause problems. However, most of these cities murders occur between gangs, not thugs and innocent civilians.

[MJZiggy]

No, I don't live in PG, I live in Mont. and who said I'm drawing on recent or racial experience in this discussion? I'm not 22 and only lived in one place. The only time I brought race into it (and come to think of it, I don't think I mentioned his race) was when I mentioned that it was the day laborer who came to give me a hand when I needed it while the affluent folks walked right by.

If you read the thread, you'll find that Partial believes that thugs are targeting innocent citizens. I realize where the crime lies, but the gang crimes are not the ones that make the headlines. The Sean Taylors make the news.

[Partial]

Were they trying to end his life or rob him for some cash?

None of these guys go out looking to end somebody's life. They go out looking for money and valuables. However, as we all know, it escalates into something worse.

Zig, I believe you live in a county (PG) which is arguably the most divided in the nation. Rich whites on one side and poorer blacks on the other side. It's the animosity between the two races which can cause problems. However, most of these cities murders occur between gangs, not thugs and innocent civilians.

What ever happened to robbing someone without shooting them, then? These people are careless with other people's lives because they don't care about anyone but themselves.

Poorer blacks? While I would agree that a lot of these people are black it has nothing to do with the color of skin. There are plenty of white assholes too.

[Partial]

No, I don't live in PG, I live in Mont. and who said I'm drawing on recent or racial experience in this discussion? I'm not 22 and only lived in one place. The only time I brought race into it (and come to think of it, I don't think I mentioned his race) was when I mentioned that it was the day laborer who came to give me a hand when I needed it while the affluent folks walked right by.

If you read the thread, you'll find that Partial believes that thugs are targeting innocent citizens. I realize where the crime lies, but the gang crimes are not the ones that make the headlines. The Sean Taylors make the news.

That's exactly right. A bunch of lowlifes came and blasted him away for no reason other than to get a few new toys for themselves. You don't think if they said whoa whoa man we won't shoot just give us your xbox, he wouldn't have said alright and let them go? I sure do. Losing a couple thousand dollars is nothing compared to your life. But again, these thugs have no regard for anyone or anything but themselves. Now a daughter has to grow up without her father for no reason other than some assholes didn't have any common sense and would rather go through live robbing people than earning a living.

For what its worth, I think Tyrone is the only one who brought up race. And it is false at that. I see just as many asian thugs out on the street as blacks or hispanics. I will admit there are not as many white but there are certainly there fair share as well.

[BallHawk]

What ever happened to robbing someone without shooting them, then? These people are careless with other people's lives because they don't care about anyone but themselves.

Poorer blacks? While I would agree that a lot of these people are black it has nothing to do with the color of skin. There are plenty of white assholes too.

I don't think any of these assholes are so bad at heart that they go out looking to kill anybody. They go out to get money. People end up dying when they try and fight back and/or they don't cooperate with the gunman. Your friends are alive because they cooperated with the guy that held all the power. The Jimmy John's guy tried to fight back. That is more than likely the reason he died. I'm not blaming him for fighting back, but when you're in a situation like that you've got to cooperate with the gunman. It's not worth losing your life over trying to save yourself form getting robbed, no matter what you are being robbed of.

[BallHawk]

That's exactly right. A bunch of lowlifes came and blasted him away for no reason other than to get a few new toys for themselves. You don't think if they said whoa whoa man we won't shoot just give us your xbox, he wouldn't have said alright and let them go? I sure do. Losing a couple thousand dollars is nothing compared to your life. But again, these thugs have no regard for anyone or anything but themselves. Now a daughter has to grow up without her father for no reason other than some assholes didn't have any common sense and would rather go through live robbing people than earning a living.

Sean Taylor died because the kids panicked when they realized he was home. They didn't expect him to be home. Why would a bunch of kids be out to kill a football player? They're amateur robbers and they ran into an unforeseen situation and they panicked, leading to Taylor getting shot. It's not their selfishness or lack of compassion that leads to the murders, it's their stupidity.

[MJZiggy]

Refresh my memory BH, did they even really need the money?

[BallHawk]

Refresh my memory BH, did they even really need the money?

Did they need it to survive? No. How often do you see a robbery and the convict's excuse was "I needed the money to buy food and clothes"? Hardly ever.

But it doesn't matter what the thug's motive is. It is how he acts, not why he acts, that makes the difference between life and death.

[MJZiggy]

Refresh my memory BH, did they even really need the money?

Did they need it to survive? No. How often do you see a robbery and the convict's excuse was "I needed the money to buy food and clothes"? Hardly ever.

But it doesn't matter what the thug's motive is. It is how he acts, not why he acts, that makes the difference between life and death.

I may be mistaken, but I think you kind of dove into the conversation a couple pages ago. Read back a little further and you may find some interesting context. Or not.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Detroit is the #1 city in the country for murders. There is plenty of crime there. I am pretty sure Milwaukee is right behind it, though I don't want to open another tab to find out.

Spend some time in south Detroit you Oblivion. Hell, go to Compton, since it's obviously worse than Milwaukee. While you're there, make sure you tell everyone you meet your views on taxes, work, and opportunity. I'm sure when you tell everyone that there's nothing but sunshine and scholarships out there for them, they'll hoist you on their shoulders. Or they might shoot you, then rape you, then put hooker make-up on you.

I'm pretty sure you got the order wrong. It's makeup, then rape, then shooting. :?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm just a little curious, here, P, when's the last time you did work without getting paid for it? Like, did something for free for someone who wasn't related to you and you weren't getting a grade for it?

I pushed 6 cars out of snow on Thursday and Friday. I got my car stuck and someone helped me out so I decided to help aynone else out that I saw.

Would you have helped those 6 folks out if someone hadn't pushed you out first?

Yes. I spend a significant amount of time volunteering annually.

How the hell do you spend "a significant amount of time volunteering annually" if your always on packer rats... And i sincerely doubt that you helped 6 people out. Maybe one, but lets face it were on a forum that we can say anything and no one will know the difference, Like earlier when you mentioned that A. you have a girlfriend B. she went to Madison and C. that she had a 3.9 in bio is most likely complete bull shit...

But hey if you wana live in your own perfectly fucked up imaginary world, go righhtt ahead.

Are you saying partial is lying. How could that be? With a full load at UWM, studying, working at sears, working out, traveling to florida, time on packerrats, going skiing, working on social networking site, playing tennis, etc...i'm sure he has tons of time to volunteer.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

That's exactly right. A bunch of lowlifes came and blasted him away for no reason other than to get a few new toys for themselves. You don't think if they said whoa whoa man we won't shoot just give us your xbox, he wouldn't have said alright and let them go? I sure do. Losing a couple thousand dollars is nothing compared to your life. But again, these thugs have no regard for anyone or anything but themselves. Now a daughter has to grow up without her father for no reason other than some assholes didn't have any common sense and would rather go through live robbing people than earning a living.

Sean Taylor died because the kids panicked when they realized he was home. They didn't expect him to be home. Why would a bunch of kids be out to kill a football player? They're amateur robbers and they ran into an unforeseen situation and they panicked, leading to Taylor getting shot. It's not their selfishness or lack of compassion that leads to the murders, it's their stupidity.

I think you are confusing stupidity with inexperience. Also, until the facts come in, we don't even know if they were sober.

[SkinBasket]

That would happen exactly as you say. And that proves my point. All these social programs exist yet they aren't willing to go and work to improve their social status.

Oh, and I think your an absolute idiot for your stealing your families tax dollars comment. What about when you were ages 14-25?!? You were stealing my families tax dollars then. So STFU with that BS.

Of course you think I'm an idiot because I think you're full of poo. Monkey poo. I don't recall getting a tax refund check when I was 14-25 that your family didn't get, so get back to work you tax evading, handout taking, delusional racist.

Oh, and they wouldn't shoot you because social programs don't work. They would shoot you because you're full of idiotic hateful nonsense. They might rape your dead body because the social programs aren't working, but the murder would be all on you.

Furthermore, I was addressing your stupid assertion that Milwaukee is almost as bad as Detroit crime wise, not your limited retarded views on social programs and their correlation to crime and taxes.

[RashanGary]

Is it legal to shoot someone who breaks into your house if they are trying to attack you but havn't acctually attacked you yet?

[Joemailman]

It would appear so.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htm

[RashanGary]

I'll bet these robbers are fully aware that they are risking their life. Things escalate fast. I think people should be prepared to shoot at the first sign of threat becasue if you don't shoot them, they easily could shoot you. And when you tell your story, don't forget to tell the part where they were moving toward you in an aggressive manner, that you didin't know if they had a gun and that you feared for your life as you pulled the trigger. That will probably keep you out of the slammer.

On top of that, say it once as the police arrive so you sound sincere and unprepared for distorting the truth. I think the jury will find that evidence to be more credible. After that, don't talk much about it and let your lawyer do the work.

[SkinBasket]

I'll bet these robbers are fully aware that they are risking their life. Things escalate fast. I think people should be prepared to shoot at the first sign of threat becasue if you don't shoot them, they easily could shoot you. And when you tell your story, don't forget to tell the part where they were moving toward you in an aggressive manner, that you didin't know if they had a gun and that you feared for your life as you pulled the trigger. That will probably keep you out of the slammer.

On top of that, say it once as the police arrive so you sound sincere and unprepared for distorting the truth. I think the jury will find that evidence to be more credible. After that, don't talk much about it and let your lawyer do the work.

Who are you talking to? Partial may hate poor people and minorities, but I don't think he's going to start shooting them.

[Scott Campbell]

Who are you talking to? Partial may hate poor people and minorities, but I don't think he's going to start shooting them.


I hope this doesn't seem insensitive, but is it ok if we shoot Harlan?

[Scott Campbell]

I would love to start a business, a little yarn shop in the antique district,..........


Hell, I'd love to start a little yarn shop in the antique district too. It sounds like a blast. But I slave away at my job because I have to earn a living - not because its my favorite thing to do in life. I mean no disrespect here, but that sounds more like a lifestyle choice than a business plan. I've read enough from you over the years to be supremely confident that you are a formidable economic entity. I certainly would not bet against you.

It sounds like a blast to you, that's fine. Maybe for you it could be viewed that way, but do you know the difference between how an angora will knit up as opposed to a silk mohair blend? If a customer walks in your door with yarn they purchased from you and is having a problem working entrelac for the first time, will you be able to help? I mentioned a yarn shop because I've been crocheting for more than 20 years and have taken up knitting a couple years ago. I will know what to tell a client who wants to make a felted piece and wishes to buy a load of superwool to make it--and how to felt the piece if they don't have a top loading washer. I can explain how to wrap a butterfly for intarsia knitting. The antique district I mentioned, is in my mind because it's the district in the part of town where they can afford $180 a pound for a hand dyed, hand spun yarn. It's not a quaint little lifestyle bit I'm discussing. I know what the hell I'm talking about. (maybe take a look at the website at the bottom of this post before messing with ZigKnit--the background of the company already exists, I just can't do anything with it right now, but get me the right opportunity...)



Hey, I hope you're not mad it me. You know I'm pulling for you.

I don't know that there will be anyone left with discretionary yarn income if Harlan gets his way.

:D

[Scott Campbell]

Ask youself why more wealthy US citizens aren't moving to Costa Rica or some other tax haven.


I understand the ex-pats rates are growing by leaps and bounds.

[RashanGary]

I'm just saying, if someone breaks into your house, you have to be prepared. You ever see those serial rapists break in, kill the guy and then rape and kill the kids and wife?

People really should be prepared to protect themselves, even in the home.

[Scott Campbell]

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

I would just suggest that you and Scott Campbell have very extreme views.

I imagine 90% of people in the country accept that taxes should be based on a percentage of income. And most wealthy people are not unhappy about paying their taxes on this basis.


Well if lamenting the amount of money confiscated from me for taxes makes me an extremist, then so be it. It certainly doesn't feel like I'm the only one complaining about tax rates.

[MJZiggy]

Hey, I hope you're not mad it me. You know I'm pulling for you.

I don't know that there will be anyone left with discretionary yarn income if Harlan gets his way.

:D

That's the yuppie part of suburban Washington DC. Home of the docs, lawyers, diplomats and govt. employees. They will ALWAYS have discretionary yarn income (and delays on the red line, but that's another story). 8-)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

I would just suggest that you and Scott Campbell have very extreme views.

I imagine 90% of people in the country accept that taxes should be based on a percentage of income. And most wealthy people are not unhappy about paying their taxes on this basis.


Well if lamenting the amount of money confiscated from me for taxes makes me an extremist, then so be it. It certainly doesn't feel like I'm the only one complaining about tax rates.

Not too many people are willing to say that wealthy people should pay a lower tax rate than working people. I have to give you props for being open and honest about your sense of entitlement.

The "kill the rich" mentality expressed at John Edwards rallies comes from a sense of frustration. Working people have a sense that rich folk are getting away with murder. The funny thing is, I never hear the populists address in specific terms how the wealthy are gaming the system. Odd. And there really is no intelligent debate on how to reform the tax system.

This is why I am willing to give a bizarre idea like Huckabee's fair tax a hearing, nobody else is even dealing with the major changes that I see should be made.

[Scott Campbell]

I have to give you props for being open and honest about your sense of entitlement.


Sense of entitlement? To my own money? Hahahahaha......good one Harlan.

Your sense of entitlement to other peoples money earns you no props from me.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I have to give you props for being open and honest about your sense of entitlement.

Your sense of entitlement to other peoples money earns you no props from me.

I've proposed a flat tax for all, after a 20K standard deduction to help people at the bottom.

Don't see entitlement there, just a whole lot of common sense and fairness.

[Scott Campbell]

I have to give you props for being open and honest about your sense of entitlement.

Your sense of entitlement to other peoples money earns you no props from me.

I've proposed a flat tax for all, after a 20K standard deduction to help people at the bottom.

Don't see entitlement there, just a whole lot of common sense and fairness.


You did not propose a flat tax. You proposed a flat tax RATE.

There's a big difference.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You did not propose a flat tax. You proposed a flat tax RATE.

There's a big difference.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: OK.

I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a "flat tax" that didn't refer to rate. Like everybody in the kingdom ponies-up $1000 in taxes.

This is a proposal one might hear from the Constitutional Party that Partial recently sang praises of. The Libertarians essentially want to take the country back to pre-New Deal era. The Constitutional Party won't hear of this, they think the Government should operate like back in 1840.

I'm worried about that boy. I'm afraid one day we're going to read about Partial living in some sect in West Virginia, with a leader with two names, "Billy Ray" or something, where they shoot any county officials that try and approach their compound.

[Partial]

Is it legal to shoot someone who breaks into your house if they are trying to attack you but havn't acctually attacked you yet?

Yes.

[Partial]

I'll bet these robbers are fully aware that they are risking their life. Things escalate fast. I think people should be prepared to shoot at the first sign of threat becasue if you don't shoot them, they easily could shoot you. And when you tell your story, don't forget to tell the part where they were moving toward you in an aggressive manner, that you didin't know if they had a gun and that you feared for your life as you pulled the trigger. That will probably keep you out of the slammer.

On top of that, say it once as the police arrive so you sound sincere and unprepared for distorting the truth. I think the jury will find that evidence to be more credible. After that, don't talk much about it and let your lawyer do the work.

Who are you talking to? Partial may hate poor people and minorities, but I don't think he's going to start shooting them.

If they break into my house and pose any risk to my family I will blow them away.

[MJZiggy]

With what? The hair dryer?

[Partial]

That would happen exactly as you say. And that proves my point. All these social programs exist yet they aren't willing to go and work to improve their social status.

Oh, and I think your an absolute idiot for your stealing your families tax dollars comment. What about when you were ages 14-25?!? You were stealing my families tax dollars then. So STFU with that BS.

Of course you think I'm an idiot because I think you're full of poo. Monkey poo. I don't recall getting a tax refund check when I was 14-25 that your family didn't get, so get back to work you tax evading, handout taking, delusional racist.

Oh, and they wouldn't shoot you because social programs don't work. They would shoot you because you're full of idiotic hateful nonsense. They might rape your dead body because the social programs aren't working, but the murder would be all on you.

Furthermore, I was addressing your stupid assertion that Milwaukee is almost as bad as Detroit crime wise, not your limited retarded views on social programs and their correlation to crime and taxes.


Yes, I am the only person who is stealing your tax dollars. It was also my choice for them to give out rebate checks. You truly are an idiot. You and Tyrone are perfect for one another. He would even work so you can stay at home!

Milwaukee is a terrible city loaded with crime. How can anyone in their right mind dispute this?!? It's so bad that the police to do not even come if you call in stating someone broke into your house. Believe me, my father has had to do it on multiple occasions.

[MJZiggy]

That would happen exactly as you say. And that proves my point. All these social programs exist yet they aren't willing to go and work to improve their social status.

Oh, and I think your an absolute idiot for your stealing your families tax dollars comment. What about when you were ages 14-25?!? You were stealing my families tax dollars then. So STFU with that BS.

Of course you think I'm an idiot because I think you're full of poo. Monkey poo. I don't recall getting a tax refund check when I was 14-25 that your family didn't get, so get back to work you tax evading, handout taking, delusional racist.

Oh, and they wouldn't shoot you because social programs don't work. They would shoot you because you're full of idiotic hateful nonsense. They might rape your dead body because the social programs aren't working, but the murder would be all on you.

Furthermore, I was addressing your stupid assertion that Milwaukee is almost as bad as Detroit crime wise, not your limited retarded views on social programs and their correlation to crime and taxes.


Yes, I am the only person who is stealing your tax dollars. It was also my choice for them to give out rebate checks. You truly are an idiot. You and Tyrone are perfect for one another. He would even work so you can stay at home!

Milwaukee is a terrible city loaded with crime. How can anyone in their right mind dispute this?!? It's so bad that the police to do not even come if you call in stating someone broke into your house. Believe me, my father has had to do it on multiple occasions.

Maybe you should pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and move to a better neighborhood...

[Harlan Huckleby]

You and Tyrone are perfect for one another. He would even work so you can stay at home!

:lol: the lad does have a point.

[Partial]

You did not propose a flat tax. You proposed a flat tax RATE.

There's a big difference.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: OK.

I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a "flat tax" that didn't refer to rate. Like everybody in the kingdom ponies-up $1000 in taxes.

This is a proposal one might hear from the Constitutional Party that Partial recently sang praises of. The Libertarians essentially want to take the country back to pre-New Deal era. The Constitutional Party won't hear of this, they think the Government should operate like back in 1840.

I'm worried about that boy. I'm afraid one day we're going to read about Partial living in some sect in West Virginia, with a leader with two names, "Billy Ray" or something, where they shoot any county officials that try and approach their compound.

:lol: :lol:

No, I just think the tax system is ridiculous. If you're poor, you don't pay anything. If you don't file, it seems that you rarely get audited. If you are extremely rich, you barely pay anything in taxes because you have accountants to hide your money. It's your average Packer Rat poster that gets screwed on the deal.

I want Fair Tax because it is an excellent idea. That, or a standard flat tax dollar amount that everyone has to pay.

[Partial]

With what? The hair dryer?

Well, I ideally would live in an area like where I live now where there is very little crime. However, if I ever live in Milwaukee I'll have to have a hand gun.

[MJZiggy]

With what? The hair dryer?

Well, I ideally would live in an area like where I live now where there is very little crime. However, if I ever live in Milwaukee I'll have to have a hand gun.

You realize that if you do that, you're statistically more likely to get shot with your own gun than to shoot an intruder with it, right? I lived in downtown Milwaukee for nearly my entire college career and never encountered a single problem except once my bike got stolen out of the parking garage where I worked. And at the time, the city crime rate averaged over 1 murder per day in the city. You're making a Partial crisis out of this. Besides, I get the feeling that if our boy stays in town, he won't be forced to live in the horrid, retched city with all those icky people.

[Freak Out]

I really hope that fucking fat wind bag Rush (do people really listen to him? Fuck....) and that twig of a slam hound Coulter keep slamming McCain....we need a Dem in the WH the next couple of terms to restock the Supreme Court and the more conservatives they can push away from the polls the better. The same goes for the far right Christians like Dobson....keep it up on Sundays you schmuck.

[RashanGary]

If they break into my house and pose any risk to my family I will blow them away.

I agree. I've seen too many families raped and killed in their own home on the discovery channel special about serial rapists and killers. Last night my wife thought she heard something. I got up, got my gun out and went to load it when I realized when my brother borrowed my rifle, he forgot to return the bullets with it. I felt really unsafe all of a sudden. I did have a 22 oz framing hammer, but that doesn't stop a serial killer/rapist with a gun. He'd shoot me and then have his way iwth my wife and kids. It's sick, but that shit happens.

Robbers better beware, because there are houses with pissed off homeowners just waiting with their rifles and most of the other ones probably have amunition.

[b bulldog]

I own 5 rifles, 2 shotguns, 1 muzzleloader and 1 pistol and I keep them all locked in my safe, which means I would probably never even have a chance at getting them out to defend my family, if I would have to. That being said, one of the best things you can do would be to go to your local Cabela's and buy a can of bear stopper. This is like mace or pepper spray that many guides in Bear country use. If it will stop a grizzly, it will stop any man.

[RashanGary]

Is it legal to shoot someone who breaks into your house if they are trying to attack you but havn't acctually attacked you yet?

Yes.

From what I understand, case law says that if you feel threatened during a break in that you can do what is necessary (within reason) to defend yourself. The court, being aware of rapes and killiings of both the spontaneous and planned variety recognizes an individual who breaks into yoru home as an instant threat. If the person is running away with his back to you, I'm sure it's illegal as all hell but my understanding is that if you feel your life is threatened and your story of what happened portrays a real risk or reason to fear, you have every right to pop off a bullet and if it hits the right spot, dead man tell no lie or truth.

[Partial]

I own 5 rifles, 2 shotguns, 1 muzzleloader and 1 pistol and I keep them all locked in my safe, which means I would probably never even have a chance at getting them out to defend my family, if I would have to. That being said, one of the best things you can do would be to go to your local Cabela's and buy a can of bear stopper. This is like mace or pepper spray that many guides in Bear country use. If it will stop a grizzly, it will stop any man.

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/740/740333/miss-teacher-bangs-a-boy-20061019104719021.jpg

Do you know what this is brah? This is the mace they use on bears faggot!!

[RashanGary]

I'm going to get a safe some day and I'll keep a loaded pistol in it. It will be in my bedroom. I'll have the combo almost complete except for the last number. I'll then pop it open, grab my gun and go from soon to be shot victim to a person capable of defending themself.