Corey Williams

[HarveyWallbangers]

He could be playing his last game at Lambeau. Hope the fans remember and give him a big hand.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=708924


Green Bay - Corey Williams said it hadn't crossed his mind, but when it was brought to his attention that he could very well be playing his final game at Lambeau Field on Sunday, he couldn't help being overwhelmed by the thought.

"I know it's going to be tough after the game on Sunday, regardless of what the situation is," Williams said Friday. "It's going to be kind of tough on me, man. My main thing is leaving all my teammates and stuff like that, knowing that if I don't end up signing back here, then I'll be going to someplace else."

Williams is in the final year of a four-year contract. With a glut of defensive tackles and a lot of money invested at the position, the Packers might be priced out of the market for Williams.

But Williams, who said his agent and the Packers have had some contact of late, said he might be willing to give Green Bay a slight hometown discount for his services.

"I love being here in Green Bay," Williams said. "The only thing I can say about that is I just want to be treated fair. If that means where I would have to take a little cut or whatever, like I said, I just want to be treated fair."

Williams is hoping he can get another contract from the Packers after the season concludes. But if it doesn't happen, he'll leave thinking fondly of Green Bay.

"If it comes to an end, one thing I can say when I leave here is that I had a great time," Williams said. "I felt like I was loved here. If it is my last game, I would love to leave here as a winner, holding up that trophy, going to the Super Bowl. You can't beat that."

[BallHawk]

Corey's a good guy and a good player. He's not the great player some thought he was, but he's a great guy playing in our system.

Ted has the money to lock him up and I hope he does it.

[Bretsky]

CW was about the last player to leave Lambeau last week; he surely was thinking about it.

He walked back to the bench and just took in the atmosphere in the crowd while the players were leaving the field.

Regardless of how this turns out if he leaves I hope our homeristic tendencies do not sway us into arguing we won't miss anything

He is a very good DL with starters talent. Pickett and Kampman are clearly our best DL. Williams is there with Jenkins and clearly better than Harrell and Cole up to this point. KGB, he's just a sacking missile ready to launch at the QB.

[Carolina_Packer]

He sure ain't no Cletidus Hunt. Wait, that's good. C'Dub will be missed if he goes. Interior lineman who can get to the QB are nice to have.

[BallHawk]

I pose this to anyone willing to answer:

If you had to pick between Corey and Jolly who would you pick and why?

[Scott Campbell]

I haven't specifically watched tape to compare them, but I'd pick Jolly. The line played better when he was in there, and he'll be making less coin.

[Carolina_Packer]

If I had to pick, I'd take Jolly. Younger, less expensive, possibly more upside.

[Partial]

I pose this to anyone willing to answer:

If you had to pick between Corey and Jolly who would you pick and why?

Jolly because he is a bigger body who has more potential. He is younger and more stout against the run which is what our defensive system calls for. He's also more versatile.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Regardless of how this turns out if he leaves I hope our homeristic tendencies do not sway us into arguing we won't miss anything

True. I also hope our pessimistic tendencies do not sway us into thinking that he can't be replaced--even by some guys on the roster. Perhaps Justin Harrell even.

[Partial]

I think he'll get locked up by the Packers for a few years. His play really fell off when Pickett and Jolly were out and I no longer think he'll be getting big time coin.

[Bretsky]

I pose this to anyone willing to answer:

If you had to pick between Corey and Jolly who would you pick and why?


That is a great question. Has Jolly shown the ability to stay healthy yet ?
If we can assume good health going forward I'd probably take Jolly as well

[Bretsky]

Regardless of how this turns out if he leaves I hope our homeristic tendencies do not sway us into arguing we won't miss anything

True. I also hope our pessimistic tendencies do not sway us into thinking that he can't be replaced--even by some guys on the roster. Perhaps Justin Harrell even.

Everybody is replaceable; of course we'll truly test that theory in a couple years when #4 hangs em up

[MJZiggy]

He'll never hang them up. He'll just give them to the equipment guy to be preserved and sent to Canton ahead of their owner.

[Lurker64]

Really, I think that Thompson's way of thinking is that no amount of money is too much to spend on big guys in the middle of the defensive line. So long as we're not spending 50% of our money on DTs, I think Ted will keep spending resources on them. I wouldn't be surprised if we hang onto Williams, especially since he's not as much of a terror as he was early on when we had the great DT play of Pickett and Jolly unleashing him.

If somebody wants to give him a crazy megadeal, we won't match it. But if he's in the realm of reasonably priced players, we could hang on to him.

[vince]

I pose this to anyone willing to answer:

If you had to pick between Corey and Jolly who would you pick and why?
I'm a Williams fan, but stopping the run up the middle is Job #1. Jolly's more stout against the run and therefore is likely to regain his starting role next year.

That's why Williams and the Packers are in a very tough situation. I'm sure they'd love to re-sign him, but I think both Williams and the Packers realize it would create a domino effect of roster problems down the road.

It's difficult to justify paying a backup as much more than a starter as would be the case here. After Jolly demands more money after next year, then the DLine cost relative to the rest of the team gets even worse.

[twoseven]

He could be playing his last game at Lambeau. Hope the fans remember and give him a big hand.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=708924


Green Bay - Corey Williams said it hadn't crossed his mind, but when it was brought to his attention that he could very well be playing his final game at Lambeau Field on Sunday, he couldn't help being overwhelmed by the thought.

"I know it's going to be tough after the game on Sunday, regardless of what the situation is," Williams said Friday. "It's going to be kind of tough on me, man. My main thing is leaving all my teammates and stuff like that, knowing that if I don't end up signing back here, then I'll be going to someplace else."

Williams is in the final year of a four-year contract. With a glut of defensive tackles and a lot of money invested at the position, the Packers might be priced out of the market for Williams.

But Williams, who said his agent and the Packers have had some contact of late, said he might be willing to give Green Bay a slight hometown discount for his services.

"I love being here in Green Bay," Williams said. "The only thing I can say about that is I just want to be treated fair. If that means where I would have to take a little cut or whatever, like I said, I just want to be treated fair."

Williams is hoping he can get another contract from the Packers after the season concludes. But if it doesn't happen, he'll leave thinking fondly of Green Bay.

"If it comes to an end, one thing I can say when I leave here is that I had a great time," Williams said. "I felt like I was loved here. If it is my last game, I would love to leave here as a winner, holding up that trophy, going to the Super Bowl. You can't beat that."

Treated fair? He's going to be paid much more than he is worth in FA based on how consistently he showed dominance this year. If he were paid just fair by any team, considering those games we didn't hear from him at all, I don't think he'd be too happy. But that's nice of him to give GB a 'little' discount, sheesh. I would imagine there might be some underpaid players on our team, or maybe in FA, that would relish playing for a winner in CW's stead with a little more passion than CW appears to be sporting as he eyes his payday, just my opinion.

Jolly for me, and I'd rather see CW's money thrown at Grant, Bigby, etc.

[RashanGary]

Jolly because he is a bigger body who has more potential. He is younger and more stout against the run which is what our defensive system calls for. He's also more versatile.

I agree, for the same reasons.

Right now Williams is our 3rd best DT by my estimation. Next year he'll be 4th if he stays. I'm thinking Harrell will pass him some time next training camp. Harrell seems to hunker down better now and he's a kid playing with men.

I'm opening up more and more to letting him go. He's good but we have better and TT keeps digging up more and more.

He did say he's willing to take a slight home town discount. To me that shows he's willing to work with us. That said, Ted's lack of aggressiveness to get something done early like he did with other players shows he might not be as open to keeping Cdub even close to UFA value. Maybe Ted feels he can do better. Whatever Ted does, there is an element of trust because of how well he's done so far.

[RashanGary]

I think he's gone only because he doesn't really fit here and that will lower the $$ that we are willing to pay him. You have to keep or get the guys you really want/need on UFA.

[Bretsky]

Jolly is probably on a 4 yr deal, but he'll get a very nice raise if he can stay healthy

[RashanGary]

Pickett seems like one of the rare huge guys that can stay healthy. Maybe he stays on after his contract is up as a run stuffing specialist. By then I'm sure Ted will have young up and comers but Pickett is good enough at what he does to stay around as an aging vet.

[RashanGary]

I'm excited to see both Harrell and Jolly next year. I think they are going to be the future at DT with Pickett fading into being the best backup DT in the league.

[b bulldog]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.

[swede]

I pose this to anyone willing to answer:

If you had to pick between Corey and Jolly who would you pick and why?
I'm a Williams fan, but stopping the run up the middle is Job #1. Jolly's more stout against the run and therefore is likely to regain his starting role next year.

That's why Williams and the Packers are in a very tough situation. I'm sure they'd love to re-sign him, but I think both Williams and the Packers realize it would create a domino effect of roster problems down the road.

It's difficult to justify paying a backup as much more than a starter as would be the case here. After Jolly demands more money after next year, then the DLine cost relative to the rest of the team gets even worse.

Vince, as a former GM/Coach you once again have seen this problem in its proper perspective.

TT will look at CW, look at his other DT's, and he will decide how much he wants to deviate from the financial plan in order to keep a valuable player.

Is there a team that remembers an ass-whipping from CW? They may want to overspend for his services.

I hope Corey has 16 highlight film sacks, tackles for loss, and game-changing tackles in the next two games. That will make the loss of his services seem bittersweet. But he'll always be welcome to come back home and look at the big, shiny VL trophy!

[Fritz]

Good analysis here. As fans we think about as far ahead as next year most of the time, but TT has to be thinking further down the road, and how much can you pay a guy who'll be in the rotation but not your starter when you've got Jolly's contract coming up down the road?

My sense is that the two sides will negotiate, but some other team will way, way overpay Williams to come and be a star. He'll sign, move on, and get lambasted when he doesn't turn into a superstar but plays at a high level - but one not as high as the contract he's going to get will suggest he should.

[Packers4Glory]

no reason NOT to lock him up. championships are built on the O line and D line. as we have learned this yr you can never be too deep on the D line. dont let the guys you develop into solid good pro's walk. We are not a team that spends big in FA, so there is no reason not to sign your own guy to keep him off the street.

[twoseven]

Good analysis here. As fans we think about as far ahead as next year most of the time, but TT has to be thinking further down the road, and how much can you pay a guy who'll be in the rotation but not your starter when you've got Jolly's contract coming up down the road?

My sense is that the two sides will negotiate, but some other team will way, way overpay Williams to come and be a star. He'll sign, move on, and get lambasted when he doesn't turn into a superstar but plays at a high level - but one not as high as the contract he's going to get will suggest he should.
If we're going to throw the kind of money out for one DT that Williams may garner, personally I'd rather see a little extra on top of that for Haynesworth, rather than CW. I believe AH could bring the presence against the run that Pickett does and pressure straight up the field that none of our DTs can bring. That's if we're willing to spend healthy on a DT, otherwise you stay on the cheap with Jolly and Harrel and cross your sausage fingers. Just my 2 cents.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Is their any way we put the transition tag on him for say a 2nd rounder?

[The Shadow]

Jolly will be next year's Williams.
Harrell will eventually assume Pickett's role.
The realities of the cap dictate that you can't keep everyone, so the trick becomes trying to project the end product.

By the way, I will be the next Favre.

[Patler]

Corey Williams is bigger than Johnny Jolly.

Jolly was the starter only because he was the one selected for their base defense. When both were healthy, Williams actually played more plays per game than Jolly did. The knock on Jolly coming out of college was that he he was active, disruptive and got himself in position to make plays...but then did not make them. In a defense designed to occupy blockers with d-linemen to free up linebackers to make plays, these are good attributes. That is why Jolly played in the base defense. But he will never give the pass rush that Williams does.

Jolly was drafted lower than he might of been because he was injured as a Senior. Now he has missed 16 of 32 regular season games due to injury and finished both pro seasons on IR.

Williams has not been injured and is a consistent performer, with 7 sacks and 26 solo tackles in both 2006 and 2007. Williams can also play and has played DE for the Packers.

If I had to pick only one, and money was not a consideration, I would take Williams. DTs who can generate a pass rush are just as valuable as a specialist as the KGB type DE who can rush from the outside. Even if they don't get there, they prevent the QB from stepping up in the pocket. It keeps the QB in place for a hurry or sack by the DE. The best way to avoid the rush of Kampman or KGB is for the QB to step up and throw. Williams makes that more difficult even when he was not getting sacks, and if the QB does step up, Williams gets him.

If Williams leaves, which I think is likely, KGB and Kampman will have more trouble getting sacks unless another DT can force things up the middle as Williams has.

We had good debates about how much KGB is worth as a non-starter. It is even a more difficult question with Williams, who played more snaps per game than Jolly even when Jolly was starting, and who is a much more versatile player then KGB. If Jenkins or Kampman were to go out with a long injury, I would not be surprised to see Williams at DE in a base alignment.

[Bretsky]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.


That is GREAT news if it's true

[Bretsky]

Corey Williams is bigger than Johnny Jolly.

Jolly was the starter only because he was the one selected for their base defense. When both were healthy, Williams actually played more plays per game than Jolly did. The knock on Jolly coming out of college was that he he was active, disruptive and got himself in position to make plays...but then did not make them. In a defense designed to occupy blockers with d-linemen to free up linebackers to make plays, these are good attributes. That is why Jolly played in the base defense. But he will never give the pass rush that Williams does.

Jolly was drafted lower than he might of been because he was injured as a Senior. Now he has missed 16 of 32 regular season games due to injury and finished both pro seasons on IR.

Williams has not been injured and is a consistent performer, with 7 sacks and 26 solo tackles in both 2006 and 2007. Williams can also play and has played DE for the Packers.

If I had to pick only one, and money was not a consideration, I would take Williams. DTs who can generate a pass rush are just as valuable as a specialist as the KGB type DE who can rush from the outside. Even if they don't get there, they prevent the QB from stepping up in the pocket. It keeps the QB in place for a hurry or sack by the DE. The best way to avoid the rush of Kampman or KGB is for the QB to step up and throw. Williams makes that more difficult even when he was not getting sacks, and if the QB does step up, Williams gets him.

If Williams leaves, which I think is likely, KGB and Kampman will have more trouble getting sacks unless another DT can force things up the middle as Williams has.

We had good debates about how much KGB is worth as a non-starter. It is even a more difficult question with Williams, who played more snaps per game than Jolly even when Jolly was starting, and who is a much more versatile player then KGB. If Jenkins or Kampman were to go out with a long injury, I would not be surprised to see Williams at DE in a base alignment.

Great points from the voice of reason......this time :lol:

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.


That is GREAT news if it's true


He was a gym warrior during his days at UT, expecting anything less than that would be silly. Harrell is really a lucky player, going from a storied program like the University of Tennessee to probably the most storied program in the NFL.

He didn't go to the UFL or the Eagles, but he is following in the footsteps of his favorite player, and my favorite player.

[RashanGary]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.

Yep, that's part of why I believe he'll take off. He's supposed to be a very hard worker, a guy who has a knack for learning and a guy who loves football. On top of that, he kicked ass in college.

I think he's going to shut a lot of people up next year.

[Deputy Nutz]

I'm excited to see both Harrell and Jolly next year. I think they are going to be the future at DT with Pickett fading into being the best backup DT in the league.

Come on, our defense is totally different when Pickett is in there. Sure Pickett might be a back up in 3 or 4 years, but for now and the future Green Bay is depend on his ability to stuff the middle of the defense and eat up blockers, and then, here is the key, make tackles. If he did better against the pass he would be an All-Pro caliber player, but I still rarely see a two gap tackle shed blockers the way he does and cave in the middle of the offensive line to make the tackle.

His last year in Saint Louis he had over 70 tackles, that is ridiculous for an interior linemen.

This system is based on rotation, if the Packers don't have 4 or 5 good defensive tackles at any point in the season the defense is going to suffer. I am of the opinion that you simply can't have enough defensive tackles or defensive backs that can play good football. The Packers have the cap room, and I think it is important that they lock up a young athletic defensive tackle for the next four or five years.

It would be different if Harrell came in from day one and became a legit starter and showed consistent flashes of dominance, but he hasn't. He has been "ok" in the last part of the season. He still gets sloppy with his technique and his pad level gets way to high, but that is expected out of a player that missed most of the off season and then got hurt midway through the season. So far he hasn't shown or proved that he is special and deserving of being a starter or playing ahead of Williams. That is way I would like to sway on the safe side and resign Williams. Harrell could still be a bust.

I am sure that if Thompson says good bye to Williams he will draft at least one if not two defensive tackles that no one has heard of to hedge his bets against Harrell panning out. The nice thing about this system in regards to defensive tackles is that they don't have to be a four star player, they just have to be good at something, carve out a niche' if you will, they need to be a good pass rusher from the middle, or they need to hold the point of attack, take on double teams, stop the run, what have you, they don't need to be a complete 5 tool player. It is that type of selection that brings you guys like Johnny Jolly, and Muir, and reasons why you keep guys like Collin Cole around.

[Patler]

Before we tie the Packers future to Jolly and Harrell, they should actually produce. Both show some ability, and Jolly has produced perhaps more than Harrell to date, but Jolly's injury history is of even more concern than Harrell's. When you end your first two seasons on IR, following an injured college season, it's hard to be viewed as more than a small piece of the puzzle.

Pickett is reliable and unsung. Only when he was out was his true value appreciated. He is a long, long way from being displaced as the most critical tackle in the rotation.

[vince]

Corey Williams is bigger than Johnny Jolly.

Jolly was the starter only because he was the one selected for their base defense. When both were healthy, Williams actually played more plays per game than Jolly did. The knock on Jolly coming out of college was that he he was active, disruptive and got himself in position to make plays...but then did not make them. In a defense designed to occupy blockers with d-linemen to free up linebackers to make plays, these are good attributes. That is why Jolly played in the base defense. But he will never give the pass rush that Williams does.

Jolly was drafted lower than he might of been because he was injured as a Senior. Now he has missed 16 of 32 regular season games due to injury and finished both pro seasons on IR.

Williams has not been injured and is a consistent performer, with 7 sacks and 26 solo tackles in both 2006 and 2007. Williams can also play and has played DE for the Packers.

If I had to pick only one, and money was not a consideration, I would take Williams. DTs who can generate a pass rush are just as valuable as a specialist as the KGB type DE who can rush from the outside. Even if they don't get there, they prevent the QB from stepping up in the pocket. It keeps the QB in place for a hurry or sack by the DE. The best way to avoid the rush of Kampman or KGB is for the QB to step up and throw. Williams makes that more difficult even when he was not getting sacks, and if the QB does step up, Williams gets him.

If Williams leaves, which I think is likely, KGB and Kampman will have more trouble getting sacks unless another DT can force things up the middle as Williams has.

We had good debates about how much KGB is worth as a non-starter. It is even a more difficult question with Williams, who played more snaps per game than Jolly even when Jolly was starting, and who is a much more versatile player then KGB. If Jenkins or Kampman were to go out with a long injury, I would not be surprised to see Williams at DE in a base alignment.
I'd take Jolly. Regardless of their size (which 1" and 1 lb. is irrelevant btw), Jolly is stronger and more powerful in fulfilling his responsibilities against the run. Further, Jolly demonstrated a propensity to knock a lot of balls down versus the pass. I couldn't find the statistics, but I know he's had a number of passes defensed this year before someone rolled on his shoulder.

Also, I'm finding conflicting information than you are stated here regarding Jolly's injury history.

Jolly did not finish the season last year on IR, nor did I find mention of the injury you cite his Senior year on college. If he was injured, he played through it.

This is from Packers.com


2006 Season

Sixth-round pick played in six games and was inactive for the other 10
Was inactive for a pair of five-game stretches, sandwiched around two games played in Weeks 7-8
Then played in each of the final four contests (the Packers were 6-0 with him in uniform)
Played from scrimmage in five games (73 snaps), collecting four tackles (three solo) and breaking up one pass
Explosive to the ball, earned his way into the Packers' defensive line rotation with a solid preseason, joining former Texas A&M teammate Montgomery on the defensive line
Played his first pro contest, at Miami (Oct. 22), and saw 20 plays on defense, coming away with his first career tackle
The following week vs. Arizona (Oct. 29), made a solo tackle and played a season-high 21 snaps
Also played on defense at San Francisco (Dec. 10), vs. Detroit (Dec. 17) and at Chicago (Dec. 31); had a pass defensed and two stops in Bears game

He did not finish last year on IR.

Regarding his Senior year in college...


College

Played 47 games for Texas A&M, including 35 starts (in succession to close his career), recording 230 tackles (111 solo), 6½ sacks, 28 tackles for loss and 16 pass deflections
As a senior, named All-Big 12 honorable mention by the league's coaches
Started all 11 games at left defensive tackle, finishing third on team with 64 tackles (20 solo), including 4½ sacks and 11½ tackles for loss
Recorded a season-high 11 tackles, including two sacks and three stops for loss, vs. Baylor (Oct. 1)In collegiate finale vs. Texas (Nov. 25), combined with linemate Michael Bennett to sack QB Vince Young for 12-yard loss
Coming off a big sophomore season led to a lot of double teams and a drop in statistics as a junior, but still earned second-team All-Big 12 honors from the Dallas Morning News and honorable mention by league coaches and Associated Press
Started all 12 games at left defensive tackle, finishing with 45 tackles (18 solo), including 26 stops in the team's last four games
Had season-high eight tackles at Texas (Nov. 26) and had two of his 3½ tackles for loss vs. Tennessee in Cotton Bowl (Jan. 1, 2005)
Had four of his six pass deflections vs. Oklahoma (Nov. 6) and Heisman Trophy-winning QB Jason White
As a sophomore, moved into the starting lineup for good in season opener and became the Aggies' defensive MVP
Recorded a career-high 95 tackles, including 54 solo and 12 tackles resulting in third-down stops
Also had 12 tackles for loss, including two sacks vs. Baylor (Oct. 11), and deflected eight passes
Posted a career-high 13 tackles at Oklahoma (Nov. 8) and vs. Texas (Nov. 28)
As a true freshman and reserve defensive tackle, appeared in 12 games and made 26 tackles (19 solo) with one stop for loss
Also caused and recovered a fumble
Had a season-high five tackles vs. Missouri (Nov. 16) and blocked a field goal, one of two blocks on the season
Majored in agriculture and life science

[Deputy Nutz]

He sprained his ankle in mid season his senior year, played through it, and then in the off season had problems with the same ankle and I believe he missed the combine and pushed back his personal workout which scouts didn't look to fondly on.

[vince]

He sprained his ankle in mid season his senior year, played through it, and then in the off season had problems with the same ankle and I believe he missed the combine and pushed back his personal workout which scouts didn't look to fondly on.
Thanks Nutz. I guess the rest of the league's scouts' aversion is Ted Thompson's and the Green Bay Packers' gain.

The fact that he played through the injury speaks to his toughness.

[Partial]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.

That is what I like to hear.

[Patler]

I'd take Jolly. Regardless of their size (which 1" and 1 lb. is irrelevant btw), Jolly is stronger and more powerful in fulfilling his responsibilities against the run. Further, Jolly demonstrated a propensity to knock a lot of balls down versus the pass. I couldn't find the statistics, but I know he's had a number of passes defensed this year before someone rolled on his shoulder.

Also, I'm finding conflicting information than you are stated here regarding Jolly's injury history.

Jolly did not finish the season last year on IR, nor did I find mention of the injury you cite his Senior year on college. If he was injured, he played through it.

He did not finish last year on IR.



Vince; I agree the size difference is minimal. I only mentioned it because some have said they would take Jolly because he was bigger and more versatile. I am of the exact opposite opinion in both regards. Williams is bigger and is much more versatile. I don't look at Jolly as being versatile at at all.

You are right about Jolly in 2006. For some reason I thought he was IR'ed last year, and when I saw the NFL list him as playing only 6 games I jumped to a conclusion that my recollection was correct. Was he injured but carried on the roster for a while in 2006, like Blackmon this year? For some reason I just remember him as being unavailable for a stretch last year. I could be wrong though. Kenderick Allen went out early. Perhaps that is what I was thinking of.

Regarding his college career, I didn't mean to imply that he was out. But he was injured. I read a lot of articles about him after he was drafted. Everyone universally said he had physical talent, but expressed concern about how he used it. I remember one evaluation that said he routinely gets in position, "but then can't seem to find the ball to make the play" Many attributed it to several injuries his last year. He played through them, however. I was and remain quite interested in him, because most said he had the physical talent to be drafted much higher than he was.

I don't dislike Jolly. I just don't see him offering what Williams does, nor for that matter does Williams offer the same things as Jolly. But, I think Williams pass rush abilities are more difficult to find in a DT. I kind of expect Harrell to be more like Jolly than he will be like Williams. I would like to keep both Williams and Jolly, because combined they make a very complete DT. The key is to get them in the games in the right situations.

[Packers4Glory]

someone please tell me. Since we are so afraid to sign guys in free agency who costs more than a bag of balls...and we aren't going to lock up one of our own guys we developed and has become a pretty vital part of our line...what in the hell are we going to spend our money on?

[vince]

I'd take Jolly. Regardless of their size (which 1" and 1 lb. is irrelevant btw), Jolly is stronger and more powerful in fulfilling his responsibilities against the run. Further, Jolly demonstrated a propensity to knock a lot of balls down versus the pass. I couldn't find the statistics, but I know he's had a number of passes defensed this year before someone rolled on his shoulder.

Also, I'm finding conflicting information than you are stated here regarding Jolly's injury history.

Jolly did not finish the season last year on IR, nor did I find mention of the injury you cite his Senior year on college. If he was injured, he played through it.

He did not finish last year on IR.



Vince; I agree the size difference is minimal. I only mentioned it because some have said they would take Jolly because he was bigger and more versatile. I am of the exact opposite opinion in both regards. Williams is bigger and is much more versatile. I don't look at Jolly as being versatile at at all.

You are right about Jolly in 2006. For some reason I thought he was IR'ed last year, and when I saw the NFL list him as playing only 6 games I jumped to a conclusion that my recollection was correct. Was he injured but carried on the roster for a while in 2006, like Blackmon this year? For some reason I just remember him as being unavailable for a stretch last year. I could be wrong though. Kenderick Allen went out early. Perhaps that is what I was thinking of.

Regarding his college career, I didn't mean to imply that he was out. But he was injured. I read a lot of articles about him after he was drafted. Everyone universally said he had physical talent, but expressed concern about how he used it. I remember one evaluation that said he routinely gets in position, "but then can't seem to find the ball to make the play" Many attributed it to several injuries his last year. He played through them, however. I was and remain quite interested in him, because most said he had the physical talent to be drafted much higher than he was.

I don't dislike Jolly. I just don't see him offering what Williams does, nor for that matter does Williams offer the same things as Jolly. But, I think Williams pass rush abilities are more difficult to find in a DT. I kind of expect Harrell to be more like Jolly than he will be like Williams. I would like to keep both Williams and Jolly, because combined they make a very complete DT. The key is to get them in the games in the right situations.
I don't dislike Williams either. I do think that stopping the run takes precedence in our DT's though... I agree with you on keeping them both, but I think that'll be very difficult to do.

[vince]

Deleted post. For some reason, it reposted below.

[HarveyWallbangers]

someone please tell me. Since we are so afraid to sign guys in free agency who costs more than a bag of balls...and we aren't going to lock up one of our own guys we developed and has become a pretty vital part of our line...what in the hell are we going to spend our money on?

Thompson resigns his own players. You can't sign them all, and we have a ton of guys that will be getting new contracts within a couple of years. I doubt he can get a guy like Corey Williams to sign a 1yr or 2yr contract, so he has to make sure it makes sense. They aren't always going to have a ton of money and few players to resign.

It all depends on whether Thompson thinks Williams is a vital part of the future or somebody that can be replaced by guys on the roster.

[vince]

someone please tell me. Since we are so afraid to sign guys in free agency who costs more than a bag of balls...and we aren't going to lock up one of our own guys we developed and has become a pretty vital part of our line...what in the hell are we going to spend our money on?
Here is the list of when Packer player contracts come due...

2007
Ryan Krause
Frank Walker
Corey Williams
Tracy* White
Rob* Davis
Vernand Morency
Collin Cole
Atari Bigby
Ruvell Martin
John Kuhn
Ryan Grant
Tyson* Walter
Noah Herron
Carlyle Holiday
Tory Humphrey
Tony Palmer

2008
Mark Tauscher
Brady Poppinga
Michael Montgomery
Jon Ryan
Jason Hunter
Charlie Peprah
Jarrett Bush
Koren Robinson
Daniel Muir
Tramon Williams
Shaun Bodiford
Ryan Powdrell
David Lonie

2009
Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila
Chad Clifton
Aaron Kampman
Ryan Pickett
Aaron Rodgers
Nick Collins
Daryn Colledge
Greg Jennings
Jason Spitz
Junius Coston
Will Blackmon
Tony Moll
Johnny Jolly
Abdul Hodge
Tyrone Culver

2010
Brett Favre
Donald Driver
Cullen Jenkins
Brandon Jackson
James Jones
Aaron Rouse
Allan Barbre
Korey Hall
Desmond Bishop
Mason Crosby
DeShawn Wynn

2011
Al Harris
A.J. Hawk
Bubba Franks
Scott Wells
Donald Lee

2012
Nick Barnett
Charles Woodson
Justin Harrell

There are at least 20 guys I'd consider important signings in the next 2 years (through 2009), including 4/5ths of the starting offensive line, and two huge playmakers in Greg Jennings and Ryan Grant, 1/2 of the starting defensive line - probably the two best (Kampman and Pickett), starting strongside LB, both starting safeties, nickel back, and many contributors.

Most all of them will be expecting hefty raises.

[twoseven]

someone please tell me. Since we are so afraid to sign guys in free agency who costs more than a bag of balls...and we aren't going to lock up one of our own guys we developed and has become a pretty vital part of our line...what in the hell are we going to spend our money on?
Here is the list of when Packer player contracts come due...

There are at least 20 guys I'd consider important signings in the next 2 years (through 2009), including 3/5ths of the starting offensive line, and two huge playmakers in Greg Jennings and Ryan Grant, 1/2 of the starting defensive line - probably the two best (Kampman and Pickett), starting strongside LB, both starting safeties, nickel back, and many contributors.

Most all of them will be expecting hefty raises.
That's a big list, but every name is already acounting for some dollar amount against our cap. How much more they will account for in the next handful of years becomes the real question.

I should add, I merely meant to say that it's easy to look at the names and think we'll never have enough money to keep them all, I would think that TT and Co. will be able to handle it. Besides in order for some to become too expensive we'll have to reap the benefits first. (Please nobody chime in with 'yeah, we are this season,' because I would hope it can get even better)

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I thought Mark Tauscher was a free agent after 2008.

[vince]

I thought Mark Tauscher was a free agent after 2008.
You're correct MD. For some reason, I had him with an extension through '11, but he just got a bump in pay for the remainder of his contract.

I'll update the list.

[GrnBay007]

VERY nice sig Vince!!!

[vince]

Thanks 007. Design props go to Mad.

[GrnBay007]

Thanks 007. Design props go to Mad.

mine too. :oops:

Nice Mad....and good selection Vince. :D

[BallHawk]

Heard an interview with Larry McCarren with Harrell and Harrell stated that he won't be leaving GB all offseason and he will be living in then weight room. He also stated that next season fans should expect a lot out of him.


That is GREAT news if it's true

Definitely. If there's one thing I don't question about Harrell it's his heart and motivation to be a great player.

[BallHawk]

TT better re-sign Ruvell Martin. Otherwise there will be hell to pay. :evil:

[RashanGary]

All that cap space eveyrone was gettin antsy about the last couple years is going to get eaten up real quick over the next couple years.

[Deputy Nutz]

2009 scares me.

[swede]

As much as I hate hate hate hate hate the Patriots you have to admire how they have avoided cap problems and still kept enough talent on the field to be consistently successful.

If we are able to do the same thing it will mean off-seasons in which we say goodbye to productive players that have become too expensive to keep.

There will be more Wahles, Riveras, Walkers, and Greens.

I want Corey Williams to play out of his skull and make such an impact over the next two games that the Houston Texans give him a 5 year 80 million dollar deal hoping he'll bring them a Super Bowl victory.

[Patler]

Vince;

A couple things:

How sure are you about Grant for 2007? Did you use the info on PackerChatters or something else?
The reason I ask is that early in the year, shortly after the trade, I dug up a Giant's pre-season list that had him listed as signed through 2008. The trade should have carried the contract with it. I have no idea how reliable the list was. I don't even remember the source.

I think you can look at most teams and see 90% of the contracts coming due within 5 years. It's only the huge deals that go on longer than that, for the most part.

I really enjoyed an article last year about the Patriots. Someone in their front office was quoted as saying that to be competitive, you have to have several players who are underpaid. Usually 3rd or 4th year players still on their first contracts who are playing extremely well. He said the cap was such that if you have only players who are paid fairly for their abilities, you won't be good enough at too many positions to be a favored team. That's why drafting well is so important.

Clifton, Driver, Tauscher, KGB and several other already count a lot against the cap. Signing them will not be difficult, because the difference between their old and new cap figures won't be that much, in all likelihood. I suppose they could be offered a "gift" from someone, like Rivera was, but I doubt it.

Our young O-linemen look serviceable, but not break the bank type of FAs. Hopefully in the next few years we draft better ones, who will be cheap for a few years, anyway, and we can let some of the current ones walk if we have to. That's what Wolf did with the likes of Aaron Taylor, Adam Timmerman, Bryce Paup and many others that looked at the time to be major losses. He seemed to have someone ready to step in, most of the time. That is when we will see how good a GM really is, if he can sustain a team over time.

[BF4MVP]

I'll give him an ovation. I like the guy a lot. Here's to Corey Williams! :glug:

[Partial]

TT better re-sign Ruvell Martin. Otherwise there will be hell to pay. :evil:

I think you'll appreciate the sig I have coming soon from MTP of the Eraser and Ruvell. Dude is a stud. Gotta lock him up. Best 5th wideout in NFL.

[vince]

Vince;

A couple things:

How sure are you about Grant for 2007? Did you use the info on PackerChatters or something else?
The reason I ask is that early in the year, shortly after the trade, I dug up a Giant's pre-season list that had him listed as signed through 2008. The trade should have carried the contract with it. I have no idea how reliable the list was. I don't even remember the source.

I think you can look at most teams and see 90% of the contracts coming due within 5 years. It's only the huge deals that go on longer than that, for the most part.

I really enjoyed an article last year about the Patriots. Someone in their front office was quoted as saying that to be competitive, you have to have several players who are underpaid. Usually 3rd or 4th year players still on their first contracts who are playing extremely well. He said the cap was such that if you have only players who are paid fairly for their abilities, you won't be good enough at too many positions to be a favored team. That's why drafting well is so important.

Clifton, Driver, Tauscher, KGB and several other already count a lot against the cap. Signing them will not be difficult, because the difference between their old and new cap figures won't be that much, in all likelihood. I suppose they could be offered a "gift" from someone, like Rivera was, but I doubt it.

Our young O-linemen look serviceable, but not break the bank type of FAs. Hopefully in the next few years we draft better ones, who will be cheap for a few years, anyway, and we can let some of the current ones walk if we have to. That's what Wolf did with the likes of Aaron Taylor, Adam Timmerman, Bryce Paup and many others that looked at the time to be major losses. He seemed to have someone ready to step in, most of the time. That is when we will see how good a GM really is, if he can sustain a team over time.
Yes this is from the PackerChatters Salary Cap table, with the exception that I updated Donald Lee's new contract here. I don't have any independent verification of Grant's contract, so it could very well run through 2008. I'll try to confirm that one.

I absolutely buy into the concepts you cite with regard to value (underpaid overperformers) being the key to lasting success in today's NFL, which is a big reason why I've been a big supporter of Thompson being very selective in free agency. I think that the Packers can continue to hold a substantial amount of their existing value (and add more) through signing their own selected guys to early contract extensions and by continuing to draft well.

I agree that a few of the guys you mention who have already signed their big paydays and will be on the backsides of their careers by the time their current contracts expire will likely be less expensive beyond their current contract. The list above is the whole roster, so the 90% figure you cite is consistent here, with the exception that the Packer roster is heavily weighted with youth from the last three years of rebuilding. As Nutz indicated, 2009 appears like it will a pivotal year in this whole equation depending on what Thompson does about that situation between now and then.

As the years progress and the current roster begins to age, I look for Thompson to try to balance the roster a little more age-wise and achieve a sustainable balance between youth and experience of talent that didn't exist when Thompson came onboard (because of a lack of depth of talent) and doesn't yet exist (because of a lack of depth of experience). I think from your comments you'd agree that Ted won't (and shouldn't) allow the roster to have a lack of youth in the future though as the current players age, which indicates that many of the guys on the roster will end up not being re-upped and will be replaced by new draftees.

There are plenty of talented guys that will draw interest in the free agent market if they're allowed to walk, particularly if the team continues to have success in the next two years, which would be expected by most after this breakout season. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out for sure, and who Thompson will end up letting walk in order to achieve his objectives.

Corey Williams is likely to be the first of those guys.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Yes this is from the PackerChatters Salary Cap table, with the exception that I updated Donald Lee's new contract here. I don't have any independent verification of Grant's contract, so it could very well run through 2008. I'll try to confirm that one.

I don't believe Grant has enough years of service to be an UFA or even a RFA at this point--even if he doesn't have a contract that runs past this year.

[MJZiggy]

I thought one of his years didn't count?

[vince]

RotoWorld confirms Grant's contract status of expiring at the end of this year.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?id=3252&sport=NFL


Ryan Grant | Running Back
TEAM: Green Bay Packers
HEIGHT/WEIGHT: 6'1' / 222
DOB: 12/9/1982
AGE: 25
COLLEGE: Notre Dame
CONTRACT INFO: 2007: $310,000, 2008: Exclusive Rights Free Agent

[swede]

This question regarding Grant's contract has been debated a few times without getting resolved.

Maybe Bob Harlan will pick up the phone and help a rat out.

He might be busy tomorrow, though.

Edit: Or Vince could check with Rotoworld and resolve it.

[vince]

Yes this is from the PackerChatters Salary Cap table, with the exception that I updated Donald Lee's new contract here. I don't have any independent verification of Grant's contract, so it could very well run through 2008. I'll try to confirm that one.

I don't believe Grant has enough years of service to be an UFA or even a RFA at this point--even if he doesn't have a contract that runs past this year.
He still needs to negotiate a new deal, just like a new draft choice. The Packers can tender him for the league minimum salary for a second year player if they want. He then could only sit out if he thinks he deserves more.
I think its in the Packers best interests to negotiate a longer term deal, which will take a bigger payday to make happen.

[Patler]

As the years progress and the current roster begins to age, I look for Thompson to try to balance the roster a little more age-wise and achieve a sustainable balance between youth and experience of talent that didn't exist when Thompson came onboard (because of a lack of depth of talent) and doesn't yet exist (because of a lack of depth of experience). I think from your comments you'd agree that Ted won't (and shouldn't) allow the roster to have a lack of youth in the future though as the current players age, which indicates that many of the guys on the roster will end up not being re-upped and will be replaced by new draftees.

There are plenty of talented guys that will draw interest in the free agent market if they're allowed to walk, particularly if the team continues to have success in the next two years, which would be expected by most after this breakout season. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out for sure, and who Thompson will end up letting walk in order to achieve his objectives.

Corey Williams is likely to be the first of those guys.

That is really the key, balancing the roster. What Thompson inherited was a roster with no depth and several glaring weaknesses even among the starters, several highly paid players who were not producing, a salary cap that was very tight and a bunch of key players with big paydays due in the off season. He was really between a rock and a hard place that first off season, especially with Walker complaining about his contract, too.

The turnaround naturally involves a bunch of players at similar points in their careers, so he likely will be able to retain some, but perhaps not all in the future. He needs to hit on more draft choices so he can allow a few to leave if he must when their rookie contracts end.

As you said, Williams might be the first. KGB, Collins and one of Spitz, Colledge and Coston could be next. KGB might be supplanted by a combination of age, money and someone young with similar contributions. Collins could be replaced by Rouse. Two but not all three of the guards will be kept. I'm not a big believer in Colledge being Clifton's successor. A fill-in maybe.

It is really interesting to go back and look at all the players Wolf allowed to leave. You could put together a very good team with the players he couldn't keep. But, he brought in capable replacements, some not as good as those they replaced, and others who were better than those they replaced. The team stayed competitive.

[MJZiggy]

Out of Spitz Colledge and Coston, who do you think he'd be most likely to let walk? The immediate guess would be Colledge, but if they're going to want him to take over for Tausch when he retires...

[Patler]

Grant becomes a real interesting case. I think he has only one year of service, 2007. When he was on IR it was for a non-football injury, so I don't believe he gets a year of service for it. If they wanted to, the Packers could drag out doing a long term deal for a few years, and Grant would have few options. I'm not suggesting that they will or should drag it out, but they could. I doubt very much that they will force him to play for minimum contracts, but on the other hand they might not be excessively generous either. It puts them in a good position with a player at a position were longevity is a real issue. Many running backs don't have long careers. I could see them doing just a two or three year deal. I could also see them doing a 5 year deal, but not at a huge compensation over all. Reasonable, but not huge; perhaps filled with incentives.

It's situations like this that make the off season entertaining for some of us!

[Patler]

Out of Spitz Colledge and Coston, who do you think he'd be most likely to let walk? The immediate guess would be Colledge, but if they're going to want him to take over for Tausch when he retires...

Next year will decide that. I doubt we will be looking at three interchangeable parts by the end of 2008. One or two will rise and the other one or two will fall.
Barbre may have something to do with it, too.

[Iron Mike]

What Thompson inherited was a roster with no depth and several glaring weaknesses even among the starters, several highly paid players who were not producing.

<==searches JSO for GreenDay's picture of Fat Albert as Cletidus Hunt.

[Partial]

The man looked like he was crying on the field on his hands and knees after the loss tonight.

I say lock him up and play him on 1st downs at DE for Kampman.

[twoseven]

Pressure from the DT to the QB has been absent most of the year, and was very apparent last night. Eli was able to step up and had too much time most of the evening without any threat from the DTs, as our ends were always just a second too late. CW's play (like others) last night was uninspired and I thnk his high price tag will just reinforce that as he most likely signs elsewhere. I don't know if Jolly and Harrel are the only answer, but IMO CW's presence on our dline is not deserving of the high price tag the market will set for him. I felt this way before last night's's game. My two cents.