THE TAG AND IT'S VALUE

[b bulldog]

If the Packers slap the franchise tag on Williams, it will cost the team 6.363 mil in cap space while if they slap the transition tag on him, 5.654mil of cap space will be eaten up. IMO, he is worth neither of these two numbers.

[Partial]

Agreed.

[Joemailman]

The injury to Jolly may have hurt Williams because it exposed him for what he is: A very good rotation player who is less effective as his snap counts increase.

[Tony Oday]

I think he is worth about half of that...

[Patler]

If the Packers slap the franchise tag on Williams, it will cost the team 6.363 mil in cap space while if they slap the transition tag on him, 5.654mil of cap space will be eaten up. IMO, he is worth neither of these two numbers.

However, either is an amount the Packers could absorb easily if they decide they need to or want to. Kind of nice to be in that position with your free agents.

[RashanGary]

One year in the guys prime? Yeah, I think he's worth the franchise. I wouldn't want him on a long term deal into his 30's at that salary every year, but one year at age 29? Sure, I'll take it. I think they should.


We have some good lineman, but it never hurts to have great depth at that position. I would bet if we keep him, there will be a point next season as the year wears on that we all feel very fortunate to have 4 good DT's to start the season. ESPECIALLY since our scheme requires more from the front four than most with the risky coverages and the lack of blitzing.

[MadtownPacker]

After seeing the shots of Williams staying on the field after everyone had left made me wonder how much him wanting to be in Green Bay mattered when it came to signing him. He isnt good enough to use the Franchise tag on but he deserves a decent contract. Everyone from this year is needed back to have a shot at success in 2008 and who the hell else is TT gonna spend the money on?

[twoseven]

After seeing the shots of Williams staying on the field after everyone had left made me wonder how much him wanting to be in Green Bay mattered when it came to signing him. He isnt good enough to use the Franchise tag on but he deserves a decent contract. Everyone from this year is needed back to have a shot at success in 2008 and who the hell else is TT gonna spend the money on?
I actually viewed his personal moment the opposite way. It seemed more of a sentimental gimmick from my perspective. I wondered if he was putting on a little show to add to his FA journey he'll be taking. Don't want to sound like a dick here, but Brett showed real emotion when he teared up after the win in Chicago, you can't fake that. I didn't see CW's actions in that way. Real emotion can pour out of you, it' not something you can even control most times. CW looked very intentional in his solitude. His play during the game didn't appear to be very inspired, he certainly wasn't playing like it might be his last game. So, I thought him kneeling down on the field after an embarassing defeat looked silly. I couldn't tell if it was for him, or for the rest of GB to see. That's just me.

[Joemailman]

Actually, he spent a lot of time on the field after the win over Seattle, not knowing at the time that the Packers would be hosting the NFC Title Game. All indications are he wants to stay in Green Bay, but he knows this is his chance for a huge payday.

[b bulldog]

yOUR ON DRUGS TO THINK 99 IS WORTH 6.5 THIS YEAR, he isn't even a starter. Not trying to be cruel Nick but you must still be drunk :lol:

[Patler]

To much is made of which tackle was the "starter". Even when Jolly was healthy and was the "starter", Williams played more downs per game than Jolly did. Jolly was the "starter" because he played in their base defense alignment on 1st and 10.

[Patler]

I actually viewed his personal moment the opposite way. It seemed more of a sentimental gimmick from my perspective. I wondered if he was putting on a little show to add to his FA journey he'll be taking. Don't want to sound like a dick here, but Brett showed real emotion when he teared up after the win in Chicago, you can't fake that. I didn't see CW's actions in that way. Real emotion can pour out of you, it' not something you can even control most times. CW looked very intentional in his solitude. His play during the game didn't appear to be very inspired, he certainly wasn't playing like it might be his last game. So, I thought him kneeling down on the field after an embarassing defeat looked silly. I couldn't tell if it was for him, or for the rest of GB to see. That's just me.

Unless you saw his face or heard him speak, you have no way of knowing if his reaction was genuine or not. It very well may have been, it may not have been.

In recent weeks Williams has had several interviews which made him sound very disappointed that his time in GB may be ending. He came across as genuinely wanting to stay, but also realizing that as a pro athlete he has few opportunities to hit it big, and this is his. However, he did say that he would stay in GB for less than what others might offer. He is on the verge of the biggest payday he may ever see, and he almost seems sad about it.

I believe Williams really wants to remain a Packer, but he is not going to play for half as much as some other team will offer.

[KYPack]

I think we have to go "Patriot" here. There comes a time when players can earn more money that they are worth. It's then to your advantage to lettum go to another team and let that team do the over paying.

Williams has reached the point where you let him go and use that bread to properly manage your roster.

CW has reached the bye-bye point.

[Bretsky]

Transition Tag just gives you the ability to match, right ? At this point in salary cap it sounds like a waste.

Is Williams better than Jenkins ???

[Patler]

Is Williams better than Jenkins ???

I think Williams was better than Jenkins this year, but was not as valuable as Jenkins, if that makes sense. GB really had no one who could take Jenkin's snaps at end and be effective at all. Certainly not KGB in the base defense. They did have players who could have rotated in, and can in the future at DT. Ironically, Williams might be a guy who could fill in for Jenkins, long term.

KGB is payed a handsome sum as a situational player. Williams is more of an every down player than KGB, but perhaps like our other DTs is not an every down all game player. He is still as good as the Packers have at DT on passing downs.

With the cap soon to be at 120 million, I have no problem with Williams at 3-4 million per year of it.

[RashanGary]

With the cap soon to be at 120 million, I have no problem with Williams at 3-4 million per year of it.

If this is all a 14 sack over 2 year DT in his prime gets on the UFA market, I'll shit a brick. I think he'll get 5 years 30 mil or close to.

[Patler]

With the cap soon to be at 120 million, I have no problem with Williams at 3-4 million per year of it.

If this is all a 14 sack over 2 year DT in his prime gets on the UFA market, I'll shit a brick. I think he'll get 5 years 30 mil or close to.

He very well might get that, but I hope not from the Packers.
I won't bat an eye if they give him a 4 year $16 million deal.
Even if they go to $20 million, I wouldn't care if years 3 & 4 have roster bonuses, etc. The cap (if there is one) could be approaching $150 million in 4-5 years.

[Bretsky]

With the cap soon to be at 120 million, I have no problem with Williams at 3-4 million per year of it.

If this is all a 14 sack over 2 year DT in his prime gets on the UFA market, I'll shit a brick. I think he'll get 5 years 30 mil or close to.

4 Yr 20MIL would seem fair to me

He's gone IMO

He'll get more of that in the open market

[PackerBlues]

I could care less if they re-sign him or not, I will be more than happy to leave that decision up to Thompson. All I know, is that the GB Defense was not able to put any pressure on opposing QB's all freakin year........at the least, not in any of the big games. I do not care how it is done, but that needs to be addressed.

[Patler]

I could care less if they re-sign him or not, I will be more than happy to leave that decision up to Thompson. All I know, is that the GB Defense was not able to put any pressure on opposing QB's all freakin year........at the least, not in any of the big games. I do not care how it is done, but that needs to be addressed.

The question is, where does Williams fit in to that improvement, or more accurately can the improvement come from replacing Williams? His two-year performance in 2006-2007 would seem to indicate replacing him would not help, but instead it would hurt the pass rush.

In 2007, only two DTs had more sacks than Williams, Darnell Docket with 9 and Tommie Harris with 8. Only Shaun Rogers matched Williams total among all DTs.

In 2006, only Warren Sapp with 10 and Corey Redding with 8 had more than Williams. Vonnie Holliday matched Williams 7.

For the two seasons combined, Williams has more sacks than any other DT in the league. There is a certain consistency to that that is appealing.

[Bretsky]

I could care less if they re-sign him or not, I will be more than happy to leave that decision up to Thompson. All I know, is that the GB Defense was not able to put any pressure on opposing QB's all freakin year........at the least, not in any of the big games. I do not care how it is done, but that needs to be addressed.

The question is, where does Williams fit in to that improvement, or more accurately can the improvement come from replacing Williams? His two-year performance in 2006-2007 would seem to indicate replacing him would not help, but instead it would hurt the pass rush.

In 2007, only two DTs had more sacks than Williams, Darnell Docket with 9 and Tommie Harris with 8. Only Shaun Rogers matched Williams total among all DTs.

In 2006, only Warren Sapp with 10 and Corey Redding with 8 had more than Williams. Vonnie Holliday matched Williams 7.

For the two seasons combined, Williams has more sacks than any other DT in the league. There is a certain consistency to that that is appealing.


Hence why he will get well over 4 MIL per year

[Patler]

I could care less if they re-sign him or not, I will be more than happy to leave that decision up to Thompson. All I know, is that the GB Defense was not able to put any pressure on opposing QB's all freakin year........at the least, not in any of the big games. I do not care how it is done, but that needs to be addressed.

The question is, where does Williams fit in to that improvement, or more accurately can the improvement come from replacing Williams? His two-year performance in 2006-2007 would seem to indicate replacing him would not help, but instead it would hurt the pass rush.

In 2007, only two DTs had more sacks than Williams, Darnell Docket with 9 and Tommie Harris with 8. Only Shaun Rogers matched Williams total among all DTs.

In 2006, only Warren Sapp with 10 and Corey Redding with 8 had more than Williams. Vonnie Holliday matched Williams 7.

For the two seasons combined, Williams has more sacks than any other DT in the league. There is a certain consistency to that that is appealing.


Hence why he will get well over 4 MIL per year

...and it is hard to argue that he doesn't deserve it, except that he doesn't seem to be able to produce that way if he plays too many downs. But, time will tell us soon how much other teams value 7 sacks per year from a DT situational player versus say 10 or 11 from a situational DE.

[RashanGary]

If it was my choice, I'd franchise him for one year and let him go after that. 6 mil in one year is a little high but it's one year that should be the best of his career and the last two have been very good.

After next year, I could care less if he leaves. Acctually, I hope he does. Right now though, I want to get one more really good year out of his prime.

[twoseven]

I actually viewed his personal moment the opposite way. It seemed more of a sentimental gimmick from my perspective. I wondered if he was putting on a little show to add to his FA journey he'll be taking. Don't want to sound like a dick here, but Brett showed real emotion when he teared up after the win in Chicago, you can't fake that. I didn't see CW's actions in that way. Real emotion can pour out of you, it' not something you can even control most times. CW looked very intentional in his solitude. His play during the game didn't appear to be very inspired, he certainly wasn't playing like it might be his last game. So, I thought him kneeling down on the field after an embarassing defeat looked silly. I couldn't tell if it was for him, or for the rest of GB to see. That's just me.

Unless you saw his face or heard him speak, you have no way of knowing if his reaction was genuine or not. It very well may have been, it may not have been.

In recent weeks Williams has had several interviews which made him sound very disappointed that his time in GB may be ending. He came across as genuinely wanting to stay, but also realizing that as a pro athlete he has few opportunities to hit it big, and this is his. However, he did say that he would stay in GB for less than what others might offer. He is on the verge of the biggest payday he may ever see, and he almost seems sad about it.

I believe Williams really wants to remain a Packer, but he is not going to play for half as much as some other team will offer.
Nowhere did I state flatly that I thought he was faking it, I simply wondered aloud and gave my opinion. If it seemed harsh, my apologies. But it's hard for me to feel sorry for a guy that's about to get a nice bump from somebody, he wins no matter what. There are millions of poeple that are out of their homes these days, and it's not because they got a big raise. Their tears DO move me. CW's tears at the thought of leaving GB after, what, four or five years doesn't exactly strike me as a Hallmark moment. I'm an asshole, I know it, let's move on.

Torii Hunter was just as genuine over in this neck of the woods during multiple interviews for weeks and months, very very sad about the possibility of leaving MN..right before he left a smoke trail towards LAA when they flashed the bucks. It took zero time for him to adjust to his new surroundings, he wasn't lamenting over the move anymore, you couldn't remove the smile from his face. He was doing an LAA press conference before he was even signed officially with a rally monkey on his shoulder while MN fans were still trying to figure out what happened. We'll see what happens with CW. I'm at least happy he has not gone Javon Walker on the organization, and I thank him for his time if he moves on (I would if I were him).

[Patler]

If it was my choice, I'd franchise him for one year and let him go after that. 6 mil in one year is a little high but it's one year that should be the best of his career and the last two have been very good.

After next year, I could care less if he leaves. Acctually, I hope he does. Right now though, I want to get one more really good year out of his prime.

Wht would you HOPE he leaves?
He seems to be a very unassuming, hardworking player who has caused no problems.

[KYPack]

Is Williams better than Jenkins ???


With the cap soon to be at 120 million, I have no problem with Williams at 3-4 million per year of it.

3-4 mill a year won't be anywhere close to the money CW will command on the open market. He'll get 5-6 million a year with a signing bonus. Hence, he's priced out of our range.

[RashanGary]

Wht would you HOPE he leaves?
He seems to be a very unassuming, hardworking player who has caused no problems.

I hope he does because he's just a good player in his prime and any long term deal after next year will be mostly over 30 years. Let someone else pay him. Right now, he's young and very good. I'd keep him one more year, even if it is 6 mil.

[RashanGary]

There seems to be a consensus that he will get in the neighborhood of 5 years, 30 mil.


With that in mind, we can either lock him up to a long term commitment well into his 30's at 6 mil per year or just get him for one year (his best year) for 6 mil with no real risk.


Seems to me like the franchise would be a good deal for the best year of CW's services.



As far as why I hope he leaves next year, well, that's because I don't think he's the type of player we should invest long term dollars in. We can keep him for one more year at the frachise price (pre inflation). Why not do that? It seems the most benefical for the Packers.

[RashanGary]

I just don't want to lose a good player right in his prime. One more year doesn't seem like much, but when you're 320 and playign a violent game, it's a big deal. If we keep him for one more, I'm OK with letting him go at age 29. For some reason that just sits better with me.

[BF4MVP]

If the Packers slap the franchise tag on Williams, it will cost the team 6.363 mil in cap space while if they slap the transition tag on him, 5.654mil of cap space will be eaten up. IMO, he is worth neither of these two numbers.
I agree..Hopefully we can get a "hometown discount" 8-)

[RashanGary]

Here's what I picture (best case)


Harrell takes this off season and works his butt off. All reports on Harrell is that he's willing to work very hard. With this season and off season under his belt, Harrell takes a huge step (similar to Jolly if not bigger)

Jolly has a shoulder injury, but he can still build up his legs and core. He can also keep his conditioning with sprints, running and whatever the hell else they do. By the time the season rolls around, he should have a stronger anchor and his shoulder should be rounding into shape.

Pickett is one of the rare fat guys who can stay healthy in the NFL. He's missed what? One game in 5 or 6 years? That's impressive. The more I see him, the more I think he can be here even after his contract as a situational run stopper but right now he's still very good all around. He is what he is.

Williams is the wild card. I really want him back (even if it's just for one more year. He's strictly a situational pass rusher, but he gets to come in after Pickett, Jolly and Harrell have been leaning on the interior line all game and reak havok). It's a luxury many teams do not have, but for a 1 year, 6 mil deal, we could have that luxury

Whoever we draft or develop will spend their time in the weight room getting stronger and ready for Williams departure.



I think this group of 4 DT's can be the best in the game. Is Pickett as good as the best of the best? Nope. Will Harrell and Jolly be? Probably not. Is Williams? Nope. However, they're all capable starters and they'll rotate in and out, feeding off each other and making the whole line stronger. I think if this team is going to take another step forward, they need to get stronger up front. I don't think they'll get stronger if they let Williams go. Letting him go would be one injury away from having only two good ones and junk backups (and backups play a lot of snaps at that position)

[b bulldog]

99 has been very good??? Pretty damn good at disappearing when he is needed to generate a passrush :oops:

[twoseven]

99 has been very good??? Pretty damn good at disappearing when he is needed to generate a passrush :oops:
I'm with bulldog on this one. I would rather see Harrel cut his teeth than toss a bunch of money at CW who is just not going to be the constant presence you'd be paying for should you splurge to retain him.

[twoseven]

Pickett is one of the rare fat guys who can stay healthy in the NFL.
That clinches it, Pickett will be on the cover of Madden 08', nice job JH.

[MJZiggy]

Pickett is one of the rare fat guys who can stay healthy in the NFL.
That clinches it, Pickett will be on the cover of Maddeon 08', nice job JH.

:lol: :lol:

[Patler]

Is Williams better than Jenkins ???


With the cap soon to be at 120 million, I have no problem with Williams at 3-4 million per year of it.

3-4 mill a year won't be anywhere close to the money CW will command on the open market. He'll get 5-6 million a year with a signing bonus. Hence, he's priced out of our range.

Probably so. I wasn't suggesting that it would be likely to get him for that.

[b bulldog]

I hope he leaves and we get another DL to replace him.

[Bretsky]

I hope he leaves and we get another DL to replace him.


As long as that DL is better than CW; that will be a heck of a lot easier said than done

[b bulldog]

I don't think 99 is much above average.

[Bretsky]

I don't think 99 is much above average.


You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better :?:

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

[Patler]

I don't think 99 is much above average.

Maybe so; but I have a hard time reconciling that with the fact that in each of the past 2 years he was #3 among all defensive tackles in sacks, and for the two years combined he is #1. I'm not sure how to evaluate that with respect to his "averageness".

[b bulldog]

My thought here is very simple, when he asked to be the man when Jolly went down, he never really jumped out at you and our passrush as a whole fell apart.

[b bulldog]

lOnce Jolly was injured, 99 pretty much stepped in for him the last 6 games and got the bulk of the snaps. In those last 6 games, 99 wouldn't be able to play fresh as he had in the past because of the DL rotation and his true toughness and ability to beat the OL on a down to down basis could be looked at. His stats for the last 6 regular season games and for the 2 playoff games were 14 tackles and 1 sack. IMO, when he was needed to stand tall and be a force, those stats tell me he definitely came up short and he shouldn't be rewarded with a one year deal worth 6.5 million. Imo, when he is playing on a different team next year, he'll be a 3-5 sack DT.

[RashanGary]

I don't think 99 is much above average.


You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better :?:

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

Your presumption taht the only way to get better is to spend more money on each position is just out of hand, Bretsky. There are better ways than blowing wads of cash (like being better at evaluating talent and having an approach that gives more oppertunities to succeed than the next guy),

[RashanGary]

lOnce Jolly was injured, 99 pretty much stepped in for him the last 6 games and got the bulk of the snaps. In those last 6 games, 99 wouldn't be able to play fresh as he had in the past because of the DL rotation and his true toughness and ability to beat the OL on a down to down basis could be looked at. His stats for the last 6 regular season games and for the 2 playoff games were 14 tackles and 1 sack. IMO, when he was needed to stand tall and be a force, those stats tell me he definitely came up short and he shouldn't be rewarded with a one year deal worth 6.5 million. Imo, when he is playing on a different team next year, he'll be a 3-5 sack DT.

Good point. I'll support and trust whatever TT decides until proven otherwise. He's had a very good record so far.

[MJZiggy]

I don't think 99 is much above average.


You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better :?:

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

Seems to me that a team that was 3 pts. from the Super Bowl shouldn't have any difficulty in trying to bring in any player it wishes especially if a player sees himself as skilled enough to be the one to push the team over the edge and into the big game. How may players do you know don't see themselves that way?

[Patler]

lOnce Jolly was injured, 99 pretty much stepped in for him the last 6 games and got the bulk of the snaps. In those last 6 games, 99 wouldn't be able to play fresh as he had in the past because of the DL rotation and his true toughness and ability to beat the OL on a down to down basis could be looked at. His stats for the last 6 regular season games and for the 2 playoff games were 14 tackles and 1 sack. IMO, when he was needed to stand tall and be a force, those stats tell me he definitely came up short and he shouldn't be rewarded with a one year deal worth 6.5 million. Imo, when he is playing on a different team next year, he'll be a 3-5 sack DT.

I agree he is not a $6.5 million dollar man.
However, I think he is a bit above "average" too.
As with many topics on here, most posts seem to gravitate to the extremes. I think Williams is really somewhere in between. He is not a franchise tag candidate, but he is more than simply a run-of-the-mill tackle, too.

None of the Packer DTs would likely excel in situations where they are asked to play too many snaps; not Pickett, not Jolly, not Williams or Harrell or Cole. The piece of the puzzle that Williams provides is a bit unusual among the DTs on the roster, and perhaps even around the league; so his piece might be harder to fill with someone else.

It wasn't just Williams pass rush that tailed off at the end of the year. The entire line went into the tank. Kampman had 3 sacks in the last 7 games he played in (not counting the last game he didn't play). KGB had 1 in his last 7 games. Jenkins did nothing all year in the pass rush. I think this is more evidence that the line as a whole was more valuable than the sum of its individual parts, and when several parts got hurt the performance of the entire line suffered.

Williams might very well be more valuable to the Packers DL than to many others in which he is expected to be something that he isn't.

In all honesty, I doubt he will be back in GB next year. I also think he might be more difficult to replace in the rotation than we think he will be.

[Bretsky]

I don't think 99 is much above average.


You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better :?:

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

Your presumption taht the only way to get better is to spend more money on each position is just out of hand, Bretsky. There are better ways than blowing wads of cash (like being better at evaluating talent and having an approach that gives more oppertunities to succeed than the next guy),


That post was a string related to Bulldog posting "I hope we let CW go and brings in another DL to replace him" about two posts before if you followed our comments. I presumed nothing; I assumed Bulldog didn't mean he wanted TT to let CW go and bring in a worse replacement. But maybe that's what he did want.

[b bulldog]

B, your first presumption was correct :lol:

[Bretsky]

B, your first presumption was correct :lol:


Assumption; presumption..whatever :lol: But I did figure you wanted an upgrade from CW

[RashanGary]

Muir acctually showed a pretty explosive first step in the Dallas game. He got a nice pressure by blowing off the snap into the Guard/Tackle gap. That is the exact kind of thing Williams does well.

Not to say Muir is as good as a 14 sack in two year DT, but there is nothing to say he isn't yet either.


We'll see how the whole thing goes. I still think 6 mil for one year is a lot better than 6 mil per year for 5 years and we're the only team in the league who has the first option, the other teams have the latter option only so the franchise should be considered. It wouldn't suprise me if Thompson uses that tag.

[CaliforniaCheez]

There are several teams with less talent that will offer Williams a contract worth 4 million a year or more. The Packers may offer 3.

Unfortunately, he is more valuable to other teams than he is to the Packers.

Williams is in the prime of his career. The Falcons, 49'ers, or Rams will significantly outbid the Packers.

[RashanGary]

There is one bit of hope I have on the Williams front and that is he played so poorly when put in a starters role. It only takes one team to think the real Williams is the guy who took advantage of a perfect situation to jack up the price, but the way he played down the strech gives hope that all of those teams have a similar opinion.

I'm not counting on it though. A team in need of a DT will put the blinders on and forget the bad so they can get what they hope is their answer.

[Deputy Nutz]

I don't think 99 is much above average.

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

[b bulldog]

See my above post about 99 when he was counted on to make plays. 1 sack and 14 tackles in 8 games, sorry but that is not real good imo for 6.5 next season. I agree with you Nutz.

[cpk1994]

I don't think 99 is much above average.


You might be right; but teams lock up their own these days. I bet he'll be in the top 4 DT's available. And will TT spend the money and take a chance on one better :?:

And even if he'd want to, would we land him ?

Seems to me that a team that was 3 pts. from the Super Bowl shouldn't have any difficulty in trying to bring in any player it wishes especially if a player sees himself as skilled enough to be the one to push the team over the edge and into the big game. How may players do you know don't see themselves that way?But that also hinges on Brett Favre's decision to retire or not.

[Patler]

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

You could just as well argue that Kampman's numbers didn't go up until Williams started playing regularly at DT on passing downs. The two go hand in hand. DEs don't get as many sacks without the pocket being pushed up the middle, otherwise the QB simply steps up and makes the throw. DTs don't get as many sacks if the QB can simply drift away from the pressure from the DTs. You need both.

[Deputy Nutz]

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

You could just as well argue that Kampman's numbers didn't go up until Williams started playing regularly at DT on passing downs. The two go hand in hand. DEs don't get as many sacks without the pocket being pushed up the middle, otherwise the QB simply steps up and makes the throw. DTs don't get as many sacks if the QB can simply drift away from the pressure from the DTs. You need both.

Prove it. Kampman gets a lot of his snaps with a good push and jump off the ball. He takes really good angles towards the QB that doesn't necessarily need a push up the middle. KGB get a lot of his sacks with speed off the line of scrimmage. His sacks rarely come from the pocket collapsing up the middle.

[Patler]

You really have to understand his sack numbers to really appreciate this statement. his sack totals went up as soon as Aaron Kampman's sack totals rose. Most of the time he didn't get these sacks by beating the guard, center combo and hustling past everyone else to the QB, he usually got a decent rush up the middle then someone else forced the QB up into the pocket. It is great that he was there to make the play, but his ability to create for himself or for others is average.

You could just as well argue that Kampman's numbers didn't go up until Williams started playing regularly at DT on passing downs. The two go hand in hand. DEs don't get as many sacks without the pocket being pushed up the middle, otherwise the QB simply steps up and makes the throw. DTs don't get as many sacks if the QB can simply drift away from the pressure from the DTs. You need both.

Prove it. Kampman gets a lot of his snaps with a good push and jump off the ball. He takes really good angles towards the QB that doesn't necessarily need a push up the middle. KGB get a lot of his sacks with speed off the line of scrimmage. His sacks rarely come from the pocket collapsing up the middle.



Well, I guess I could demand that you prove your opinion, too. You can't, nor can I. Neither of us can. It is all just opinions anyway.

That said, Kampman gets most of his sacks from his never give up attitude. His relentlessness. His sacks often come late in plays as he simply battles longer and harder than the tackle blocking him. KGB does get his with speed. But he mostly uses only an outside, up the field move. Accordingly, both generally need the QB to stay back in the pocket to get to them. QBs can avoid either, but especially KGB, by stepping up in the pocket.

KGB particularly gets deep and can be avoided if there is not some pressure in the middle of the pocket. Kampman generally needs the play to drag out a bit to get his sacks. That doesn't happen if the middle is wide open, although Kampman can adjust his rush and get inside if the QB does move up. KGB does not. If he gets deeper than the QB he is mostly done for that play.

[Guiness]

Got to ask - where does Cole fit in here?????

NOt the player Willams is, IMO, but a piece of the puzzle none the less

[b bulldog]

I heard on "The Fan " today that rumors have the packers think the market will be way too high in regards to 99 and that they don't think he is worth more than $3mil per season. I hope this is correct, last evening showed us all what good DLineman look like and how they play.

[b bulldog]

Name of the game today is PASSRUSH!!!!!! TT needs to spend some money on guys who can win one on one battles.

[b bulldog]

Time for TT to bite the bullet and make some blockbuster moves, agree B :lol:

[twoseven]

I heard on "The Fan " today that rumors have the packers think the market will be way too high in regards to 99 and that they don't think he is worth more than $3mil per season. I hope this is correct, last evening showed us all what good DLineman look like and how they play.
If they don't think he is even worth 3 million it would seem to me they aren't going to be outsourcing his position either, so they might as well pony up for him and get it over with. I personally don't think CW's on again/off again presence is worth 5-6 million a year, but less than 3 million seems a bit foolish.