"The" interception - a much earlier view of the pl

[Patler]

John Jagler's blog on 620wtmj.com has a picture of the infamous play, but BEFORE Favre threw. He is just winding up to throw. Let's discuss the field at THAT time!


http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/johnjagler

[HarveyWallbangers]

Looks a bit different, doesn't it?
:D

Osi's actually closer to Favre on the rush at this point. Unless Favre has eyes in the back of his head, he has to be worried about him. If I remember correctly Favre had to step up in the pocket a bit on this play also.

[RashanGary]

I don't know exactly what happened, but I do know Favre has never and will never make a mistake. Just ask Harv.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Looks a bit different, doesn't it?
:D

Osi's actually closer to Favre on the rush at this point. Unless Favre has eyes in the back of his head, he has to be worried about him. If I remember correctly Favre had to step up in the pocket a bit on this play also.

Actually it doesn't look much different. He has a good pocket their, definitely enough time to get the ball out in time and have the Wr's run their routes. You can freeze it, rewind, and fast forward it all day, but the fact is, at the end, it was a bad throw.

And for god sake Grant is just looking at him.

[GrnBay007]

I don't know exactly what happened, but I do know Favre has never and will never make a mistake. Just ask Harv.

I don't know exactly what happened with the Moss deal, but I do know TT has never and will never make a mistake. Just ask JustinHarrell. :wink: :P

[RashanGary]

Sounds like MM was the guy who turned Moss off :P

[GrnBay007]

Sounds like MM was the guy who turned Moss off :P

Not saying I am bitter we didn't get Moss. ...just couldn't resist bringing up your TT man love. :D

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't know exactly what happened, but I do know Favre has never and will never make a mistake. Just ask Harv.

I said he made a bad throw. To make something bigger out of it is stupid. To say we'd be better off without Favre (NFC Offensive Player of the Year) is even more stupid. Right Collins?

[motife]

The picture is blurred, but Webster is almost on top of Driver. You can't see him because he's right behind.

http://media2.620wtmj.com/wmn/favrelastpass2.JPG

http://media2.620wtmj.com/wmn/favrelastpass.jpg

[Partial]

I don't know exactly what happened, but I do know Favre has never and will never make a mistake. Just ask Harv.

You're an idiot. Look at the play!!! No one else has separation short of Grant. Driver looks like he is in position to make a play on the ball on a comeback pattern based on where Webster is. It kind of looks like he is being held slight as well.

Lee looks blanketed, Jenning has some moderate separation but with safety help and the man chasing him a yard or two shorter on the field, that is a tough throw to make.

Regardless, I doubt Favre even went to his 2nd or 3rd reads because he is taught to go to his first progression if it is open. From the looks of it, it looks like Driver is open enough to be the only one with a chance to catch the ball.

It was a fine read but an inaccurate pass. When its the third coldest game in NFL history, that does happen.

[Fosco33]

I think this thread has a better picture of pre-throw. Wonder if the Dline's arm/hand impeded Favre's view of Driver's 'openness'?

I'm over this throw. I'm over the game. There were about a dozen more 'bad' plays in this game that added up to the loss. Plenty of blame to sling around.

If Brett comes back, I'll be ecstatic. If he doesn't, I'll understand and remember much more than this one throw/game/year/etc.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=10906&start=80

[Pacopete4]

thaaaaaank god someone took the pic of the actual play.. my god, it was a bad throw, it really was... but that doesnt meant he choked or just threw one up for grabs.. people, realize that hes the best you'll ever see at that position and love it

[b bulldog]

Brett has a very good pocket to throw out of and Grant should have gotten the ball, he is open! Check down Brett, check down!!!! That is a perfect Brady like pocket, he can even step into his throw. Osi is 2.5 yards behind Brett. Grant had nobody within 10 yards of him in the secondary.

[b bulldog]

One could also now say he may have rushed the pass as he did most of the day.

[Patler]

Jagler also mentioned on air that Driver was Favre's first read. If that is the case, you can't fault the selection of who he threw to at all. If the ball was thrown to Driver's outside shoulder and maybe just a little short of where Driver is, making Driver comeback for it, the only way the defender can get to it is through Driver for an interference penalty.

Driver has pretty good position. There really was no reason for Favre to look for Jennings, Grant or anyone else. The QB doesn't look for the most open receiver, he looks for the first receiver in his progression that he can get the ball to.

One of Favre's faults (and strengths) is his confidence in making throws to tightly covered receivers.

I think the earlier picture shows clearly that it was not a bad decision at all, but a very bad throw.

[GBRulz]

I almost wish the Giants kicker would have made that earlier FG and we never even went to OT.

[pbmax]

Jennings has separation as well, though some of his spacing seems vertical, so its not especially clear from this shot. However, before Favre cranks to throw, the safety over Jennings might not have been leaning toward the middle.

The problem with showing this, however, is point of comparison. We don't know what the pre-windup spacing is like on 99% of Favre's passes. So to judge that no one is open except for Grant is tough. What did this look like the other 35 times they ran this play?

And how often is Favre asked to throw before a break is completed and seperation has been gained?

[pbmax]

Then the difference between Driver and Jennings is pretty glaring. Driver and Jennings, from a still so can't say for certain, are running mirror routes. If that is true, Jennings has accomplished a lot more, he is both outside and past his defender. Driver is still in his break and the defender is behind him.

Is Jennings faster? Is he running a better route? Is his defender worse? Whatever the reason, we weren't taking advantage of our advantage. And that the story for much of the game.


Jagler also mentioned on air that Driver was Favre's first read. If that is the case, you can't fault the selection of who he threw to at all. If the ball was thrown to Driver's outside shoulder and maybe just a little short of where Driver is, making Driver comeback for it, the only way the defender can get to it is through Driver for an interference penalty.

Driver has pretty good position. There really was no reason for Favre to look for Jennings, Grant or anyone else. The QB doesn't look for the most open receiver, he looks for the first receiver in his progression that he can get the ball to.

One of Favre's faults (and strengths) is his confidence in making throws to tightly covered receivers.

I think the earlier picture shows clearly that it was not a bad decision at all, but a very bad throw.

[RashanGary]

Brett has a very good pocket to throw out of and Grant should have gotten the ball, he is open! Check down Brett, check down!!!! That is a perfect Brady like pocket, he can even step into his throw. Osi is 2.5 yards behind Brett. Grant had nobody within 10 yards of him in the secondary.


Haha, brady like pocket? I don't think so. That DT just blew past Colledge. Brett had to get rid of that thing quickly.


I'm not defending Brett becuase a number of bad things seem to happen to him in big games but saying that is a Brady like pocket seems like a bit of an exaggeration.


Brett just played a shit game. He didn't have as many INT's as in the Dallas game, but he threw just as inaccurately all game long.

Manning out played Brett. The right QB is in the SB if you go off of how they played in the post season. Same thing with McNabb a few years ago. Same thing with Warner a few more years ago. Brett has bad games in the playoffs. He earned his legacy as a iron man and gun slinger but he is not a multi champion because he hasn't been good enough when it counts. That's why he's not in the discussion for best ever. That's why none of us should be cliff diving when he retires. We've won 1 in 17 with Brett (in a bad NFC). It's not like he's our ticket to the SB. History shows that.

[Patler]

Then the difference between Driver and Jennings is pretty glaring. Driver and Jennings, from a still so can't say for certain, are running mirror routes. If that is true, Jennings has accomplished a lot more, he is both outside and past his defender. Driver is still in his break and the defender is behind him.

Is Jennings faster? Is he running a better route? Is his defender worse? Whatever the reason, we weren't taking advantage of our advantage. And that the story for much of the game.


Jagler also mentioned on air that Driver was Favre's first read. If that is the case, you can't fault the selection of who he threw to at all. If the ball was thrown to Driver's outside shoulder and maybe just a little short of where Driver is, making Driver comeback for it, the only way the defender can get to it is through Driver for an interference penalty.

Driver has pretty good position. There really was no reason for Favre to look for Jennings, Grant or anyone else. The QB doesn't look for the most open receiver, he looks for the first receiver in his progression that he can get the ball to.

One of Favre's faults (and strengths) is his confidence in making throws to tightly covered receivers.

I think the earlier picture shows clearly that it was not a bad decision at all, but a very bad throw.

But if Driver was the first read, Favre would never even look to Jennings as long as Driver is open enough to get the ball. He doesn't have time to look to all of them and then decide which to throw to.

[GBRulz]

JH - Have you considered joining Britney in rehab?

:lol:

[RashanGary]

I'm not going to get into a war of words over brett Favre. He's idolized, loved and worshiped by far too many for it to be anything but a cycle of defensiveness.


I see our odds of winning a SB with him as 1 in 17 based on his win rate over his career. With that in mind, I'm not as worried about when he retires as most. I like Cliff Christl a lot. He thinks the Packers are going to suck after Favre. I'm very interested to find out how it goes when he hangs them up. I really don't think we're going to win a championship with him, so why not have fun seeing what happens next.

Football is a passtime for me. It's not something I'm emotionally invested in. I do like seeing the happyness in the lockerroom after a team win, but I don't really care if they lose. IF Brett hangs them up and the Packers suck, I'll be wrong about what I think. I think they'll be fine. We'll see. To me it's fun to make an hypothosis and find out if it pans out. It's more fun that shaking my pom poms at any one player. I grew out of that when I was about 16 years old. That's not to criticise anyone who does worship these guys, it's just not how I look at it.

[MJZiggy]

why not have fun seeing what happens next.



Because losing sucks. And judging by your behavior in game threads and the fact that you're here every day, I don't believe for a minute that you don't care if we win or lose. Let me remind you once again--LOSING SUCKS. We have a quarterback who has been pretty successful at not losing. Many of us here are happy about that. Every player (except 3), coach, assistant, water boy and maybe the janitor blew that game. If they didn't it would never have come down to that play. Now we've analyzed the shit out of it. It simply appears to be a bad throw on the same play that got Driver a touchdown earlier in the game.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I'm not going to get into a war of words over brett Favre. He's idolized, loved and worshiped by far too many for it to be anything but a cycle of defensiveness.


I see our odds of winning a SB with him as 1 in 17 based on his win rate over his career. With that in mind, I'm not as worried about when he retires as most. I like Cliff Christl a lot. He thinks the Packers are going to suck after Favre. I'm very interested to find out how it goes when he hangs them up. I really don't think we're going to win a championship with him, so why not have fun seeing what happens next.

Football is a passtime for me. It's not something I'm emotionally invested in. I do like seeing the happyness in the lockerroom after a team win, but I don't really care if they lose. IF Brett hangs them up and the Packers suck, I'll be wrong about what I think. I think they'll be fine. We'll see. To me it's fun to make an hypothosis and find out if it pans out. It's more fun that shaking my pom poms at any one player. I grew out of that when I was about 16 years old. That's not to criticise anyone who does worship these guys, it's just not how I look at it.

The difference is I do care if they win or lose and thus thats why I want Brett back. Brett is still a great QB and he gives us the best chance of winning, plus he is my favorite player :) . However, I do agree that the team is not doomed if Brett retires. Like you said, he hasn't won enough championships for the difference in teams with or without him to be that great.

[Patler]

It has to be disappointing for the Packer organization to have had a QB the caliber of Favre for as long as they have, and get to only two Super Bowls and win only one. Less than stellar teams win one now and then. It is even more disappointing when you look to various multi-year time periods and combined in season records. No matter what groups of years you look at, the Packers are at or near the top of the league in total wins during Favre's time.

We can all list many reasons why that is, bu the fact remains that when you look at how many Super Bowls other great QBs played in, it is disappointing for Favre to have been in just two, especially since he was relatively young when they did get there.

[Bretsky]

I'm not going to get into a war of words over brett Favre. He's idolized, loved and worshiped by far too many for it to be anything but a cycle of defensiveness.


I see our odds of winning a SB with him as 1 in 17 based on his win rate over his career. With that in mind, I'm not as worried about when he retires as most. I like Cliff Christl a lot. He thinks the Packers are going to suck after Favre. I'm very interested to find out how it goes when he hangs them up. I really don't think we're going to win a championship with him, so why not have fun seeing what happens next.

Football is a passtime for me. It's not something I'm emotionally invested in. I do like seeing the happyness in the lockerroom after a team win, but I don't really care if they lose. IF Brett hangs them up and the Packers suck, I'll be wrong about what I think. I think they'll be fine. We'll see. To me it's fun to make an hypothosis and find out if it pans out. It's more fun that shaking my pom poms at any one player. I grew out of that when I was about 16 years old. That's not to criticise anyone who does worship these guys, it's just not how I look at it.


Right now Favre remains one of our best players. If we're 1 of 17 with Favre, you can multiply that 17 by at least 5 IMO with Rodgers. Maybe he'll imporve the odds over time; maybe he'll never stay healthy and the odds would be much worse than 85-1

You are better than that 1 in 17 chance comment JH; by making a blanket generalization like that you ingnore all other factors...team...coaches...that have occured in the past 17 years and drop it on the QB

[Cheesehead Craig]

Brett has a very good pocket to throw out of and Grant should have gotten the ball, he is open! Check down Brett, check down!!!! That is a perfect Brady like pocket, he can even step into his throw. Osi is 2.5 yards behind Brett. Grant had nobody within 10 yards of him in the secondary.
Haha, brady like pocket? I don't think so. That DT just blew past Colledge. Brett had to get rid of that thing quickly.
Watch the replay on NFL.com, there was no pressure. Colledge more than handled his man and took him outside the pocket. Hall picked up the blitzing LB up the middle.

Brett made a bad throw and he could have waited at least another second or so to throw it to another receiver. He wasn't pressured at all on the play.

[b bulldog]

My point exactly, look at the pocket, it is perfect, he can even step into his throw.

[RashanGary]

Right now Favre remains one of our best players. If we're 1 of 17 with Favre, you can multiply that 17 by at least 5 IMO with Rodgers. Maybe he'll imporve the odds over time; maybe he'll never stay healthy and the odds would be much worse than 85-1

You are better than that 1 in 17 chance comment JH; by making a blanket generalization like that you ingnore all other factors...team...coaches...that have occured in the past 17 years and drop it on the QB

You don't have a clue how good or bad Rodgers is. You don't even know if Rodgers is going to be the guy and neither do I.

Favre has a long career of information to draw off of. The information is that he is a one time winner over the course of a long career. The odds of winning with him can be infered to be 1 to 17 (I'm assuming the team around him isn't going to be that much better than the ones Wolf gave him just yet). Losing him is hardly a tragedy. I don't even care what the odds are without him to be honestly. 5% or 1% chance, who cares. The odds are bad either way. All I'm saying is I'm not sitting here panicking like a little girl worried about losing 4% of a chance for a team I follow to win the SB. I don't have an ounce of emotional attachment to Favre, so I can't say that increases my "give a shit" factor either.

I understand some people conduct their whole thinkin patterns around emotional attachments. That's fine, we're all different. I don't open the paper every day hoping my idol comes back, or hoping I can vicariously live through my hero one more year. I follow sports because it gives me an oppertunity to anylyse something that is stressless rather than dealing with the stress of every day life. I'm acctually flipping over to politics for a while. I don't know why, I guess it's new and different for now.

Anyway, this topic is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme. Let's not get all offended about liking or not caring about Brett Favre. I enjoy the Favre debate because I think I have some points that I like to express. If people are going to get defensive and angry because my opinion differs, well, screw you all, I'm gonna keep bringing it :)

[Fosco33]

I hope Rodgers will be alright. A lot of Favre backups have went on to moderate success with other teams.

I question Rodgers durability based on the two games in the last two years that he's played (and was injured for significant periods of time in both contests).

A quality, consistent starting QB is a one of the keys to a SB team. That or an extremely dominant defense. I really don't see Rodgers as that type of QB - so here's hoping we upgrade the defense next year (with or without Favre).

[Bretsky]

I hope Rodgers will be alright. A lot of Favre backups have went on to moderate success with other teams.

I question Rodgers durability based on the two games in the last two years that he's played (and was injured for significant periods of time in both contests).

A quality, consistent starting QB is a one of the keys to a SB team. That or an extremely dominant defense. I really don't see Rodgers as that type of QB - so here's hoping we upgrade the defense next year (with or without Favre).


We have little evidence on that AROD will succeed for fail
We do have reason to question his ability to be durable over the course of the season.

[b bulldog]

I agree wuith Nick here, nobody really can draw any conclusions on Rodgers yet. Like the attitude Nick, seems as though you lost that attitude since you went away from Nick Collins :lol:

[Bretsky]

I agree wuith Nick here, nobody really can draw any conclusions on Rodgers yet. Like the attitude Nick, seems as though you lost that attitude since you went away from Nick Collins :lol:


That is why we add "opinions" rather than conclusions when we state our views; it's certainly reasonable to be concerned about his durability. Something we haven't had to worry about much over the past couple decades

[b bulldog]

That would be the one red flag that you definitely can go with in regards to Rodgers.

[RashanGary]

For the record, I don't think Rodgers will be the guy. I think Thompson is going to have to shuffle through QB's until a decent one sticks and even then he's going to have to keep bringing in new competition. It's like anything else; more darts = better chance at hitting.

Other than that, he's going to have to consistantly make good, solid decisions and keep the Packers competitive every year so they have more chances. Who knows; one year it might pan out. Like every think else, more darts. . . . .

[GrnBay007]

We do have reason to question his ability to be durable over the course of the season.

Agree.

And that's unfortunate because he did show he was capable in the Dallas game.