Wahle Morgan cut by the Panthers

[KYPack]

The sainted Mike Wahle is out on the open market.

Carolina figured out that guard ain't the place to load up on salary $.

They cut Whale and MLB Dan Morgan in a cap/$ move this afternoon.

[BallHawk]

Per PFT....


The Carolina Panthers released guard Mike Wahle and linebacker Dan Morgan today, the team announced on its web site.

"These were tough decisions because Dan and Mike have been valuable members of our team and have done everything we have asked of them over the years," said head coach John Fox in the team's statement. "They are both very dedicated to the game of football and earned the respect of everyone who worked with them."

Morgan was Carolina's first-round draft pick in 2001 out of Miami, and at one point looked like one of the league's most promising young linebackers. But injuries have derailed his career. He missed 13 games in 2007 with an Achilles injury and missed 15 games in 2006 because of a concussion. Although Morgan's 59 starts are the most for a linebacker in franchise history, he'll be remembered more for the games he didn't play: In seven seasons he missed 53 games.

Wahle was a high-priced free agent acquisition from Green Bay in 2005. He made the Pro Bowl that year and started all but three games for the Panthers in the last three years.

The two roster moves are expected to clear about $6 million in cap room.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Fins made some cuts as well.

Not great playes, but interesting names for some depth.

[BallHawk]

Not th e player he used to be.

Unless we are truly desperate, pass.

[KYPack]

Most observers thought QB David Carr was the man to be cut by Carolina. He still may get the ax.

Whale is far superior to any OG on our roster, but there is way too much bad blood for us to pick him up.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Bad blood between who?

He got paid. I'm sure he isn't upset. The org never disparaged him.

If wahle is smart, and i gotta believe so as he attended an academy, he knows football is a biz.

The right offer, to a team that could win it all....he could come back.

[BallHawk]

Whale is far superior to any OG on our roster, but there is way too much bad blood for us to pick him up.

I wouldn't say there is bad blood. The Pack were in a desperate cap situation and Wahle just ended up being one of the casualties. I don't think he resents for that, at least I hope he doesn't.

[Green Bud Packer]

Bad blood between who?

He got paid. I'm sure he isn't upset. The org never disparaged him.

If wahle is smart, and i gotta believe so as he attended an academy, he knows football is a biz.

The right offer, to a team that could win it all....he could come back.

Lot of bad blood in here but once again your street smarts shine.

[SkinBasket]

Whale is far superior to any OG on our roster, but there is way too much bad blood for us to pick him up.

I wouldn't say there is bad blood. The Pack were in a desperate cap situation and Wahle just ended up being one of the casualties. I don't think he resents for that, at least I hope he doesn't.

I also think there isn't bad blood. Whale was the one who was talking about being the odd man out long before the Packers ever had to make that decision. He essentially told them, "don't bother, there's no way you can afford me."

[twoseven]

What's Wahle gonna cost his new team?

[KYPack]

Bad blood between who?

He got paid. I'm sure he isn't upset. The org never disparaged him.

If wahle is smart, and i gotta believe so as he attended an academy, he knows football is a biz.

The right offer, to a team that could win it all....he could come back.

Yer right "bad blood" isn't the right term, but no way does TT sign Whale.

Anytime a GM makes a move, he won't do anything that makes that move look like a mistake. TT cut big Mike and won't bring him back.

Wahle did have the ass at the Packers. He felt he never got his due here and made comments to that affect. That was on Sherman's watch as GM. He'll wind up elsewhere, probaqbly at a good salary, but not a huge deal like he signed with Car.

[RashanGary]

Nothing wrong with giving him a look see. Our current guards havn't played kick as football just yet, but they were a vital part of a pretty successfull team.

I'm all about getting better and if Wahle is better at this point in his career, I wouldn't complain about bringing him in. That said, I'm not so sure our guys won't be getting better and he getting worse to the point that it's a wash. There is a reason Carolina is cutting him and it's not because they want to give other NFL teams a better chance to beat them.

[Scott Campbell]

Funny how Wahle and Walker are the 2 most frequently cited "mistakes" Ted made in letting people go.

[twoseven]

Anytime a GM makes a move, he won't do anything that makes that move look like a mistake. TT cut big Mike and won't bring him back.
What choice did he have? We didn't have the money to pay him.

[RashanGary]

Funny how Wahle and Walker are the 2 most frequently cited "mistakes" Ted made in letting people go.

I was thinking that too. Either TT is really lucky or he really knows what he is doing.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wahle is still a solid player. For the right price, I'd bring him back. He has the ability to play in any system.

[RashanGary]

Wahle is still a solid player. For the right price, I'd bring him back. He has the ability to play in any system.

Everyone is talking about how good he still is. I don't know about you guys, but I havn't seen him play more than two games in the last three years.

[Pacopete4]

i think hes worth a shot with the right price, he is not extremely old and may have a few good years still in him. He fit well with the Packer organization which means he is a packer person.. id say give him a shot for a deal with incentives

[KYPack]

Fins made some cuts as well.

Not great playes, but interesting names for some depth.

QB Trent Green, wide receiver Marty Booker, tackle L.J. Shelton and defensive tackle Keith Traylor. The team also waived tackle Anthony Alabi, defensive tackle Anthony Bryant, tackle Marion Dukes, defensive tackle Marquay Love and tackle Joe Toledo.

The first major personnel move of the new Bill Parcells-led front office.

These are guys who are all played out, or just want to collect a paycheck. Big Bill don't screw around.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Bad blood between who?

He got paid. I'm sure he isn't upset. The org never disparaged him.

If wahle is smart, and i gotta believe so as he attended an academy, he knows football is a biz.

The right offer, to a team that could win it all....he could come back.

Yer right "bad blood" isn't the right term, but no way does TT sign Whale.

Anytime a GM makes a move, he won't do anything that makes that move look like a mistake. TT cut big Mike and won't bring him back.

Wahle did have the ass at the Packers. He felt he never got his due here and made comments to that affect. That was on Sherman's watch as GM. He'll wind up elsewhere, probaqbly at a good salary, but not a huge deal like he signed with Car.

Bringing him back doesn't look like a mistake, it proves his point. No different than getting a player to renogiate a contract.

TT signs him for what TT considers good dollar value and TT proves the point.

I'm not predicting he signs here, just don't agree with your logic.

If you wanna make a convincing argument, then you say that signing wahle shows tt made a mistake in his drafting of spitz or colledge.

[twoseven]

Wahle is still a solid player. For the right price, I'd bring him back. He has the ability to play in any system.

Everyone is talking about how good he still is. I don't know about you guys, but I havn't seen him play more than two games in the last three years.
But you have seen our guards play the last two years, that should be more than enough to spark an interest in what Wahle might have left in the tank.

[RashanGary]

I'd say there is more than enough evidence in TT's favor to where he shouldn't worry about having to prove he's right .

Wahle went there for a big contract, had one probowl year and since then has been injured and ineffective enough for the team that signed him to cut him. I odn't know if a non signing could have gone much better than that, well except for the Walker fiasco but still, TT comes out looking golden no matter what happens from this point.

[RashanGary]

But you have seen our guards play the last two years, that should be more than enough to spark an interest in what Wahle might have left in the tank.

I don't know if you watched the Giant and Patriot games, but our guards held up better than their probowl guards. Our Oline played very well down the strech.

I'm not calling our guys all pros, but they're not as bad as they are made out here IMO. The running game was good. The pass pro was good. What else do you want?

People remember that one year and two years ago when Colledge and Spitz were rookies. They really weren't bad this past year. They were a big part of one of the best teams in the league. They're all young and improving players too.

I'm not against Wahle, but I'm not for it just because our current guys are the worst in the NFL like some make it out to be. I don't think that's the case at all and I'd be willing to wager that even if we don't bring in anyone that we'll have a better interior line next year.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Fins made some cuts as well.

Not great playes, but interesting names for some depth.

QB Trent Green, wide receiver Marty Booker, tackle L.J. Shelton and defensive tackle Keith Traylor. The team also waived tackle Anthony Alabi, defensive tackle Anthony Bryant, tackle Marion Dukes, defensive tackle Marquay Love and tackle Joe Toledo.

The first major personnel move of the new Bill Parcells-led front office.

These are guys who are all played out, or just want to collect a paycheck. Big Bill don't screw around.

I'd take Booker over ruvell. LJ, 31, with the right contract would be a fine backup. Pretty wierd how he cut LJ and his backup Alabi!

Traylor gives you a big body.

Not claiming anybody is a world beater, but a couple could add depth and experience.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But you have seen our guards play the last two years, that should be more than enough to spark an interest in what Wahle might have left in the tank.

I don't know if you watched the Giant and Patriot games, but our guards held up better than their probowl guards. Our Oline played very well down the strech.

I'm not calling our guys all pros, but they're not as bad as they are made out here IMO. The running game was good. The pass pro was good. What else do you want?

People remember that one year and two years ago when Colledge and Spitz were rookies. They really weren't bad this past year. They were a big part of one of the best teams in the league. They're all young and improving players too.

I'm not against Wahle, but I'm not for it just because our current guys are the worst in the NFL like some make it out to be. I don't think that's the case at all and I'd be willing to wager that even if we don't bring in anyone that we'll have a better interior line next year.

Man, you shoulda been working for Pravda!!

Colledge was pretty darn poor for a significant portion of the season.

[Fred's Slacks]

If I remember correctly, Wahle indicated he felt like Sherman had his favorites and he wasn't one of them. He mentioned something about being the only starting olineman who wasn't on a game program that year and that he thought Rivera would probably get a new deal instead of him. I think his problem was with Sherman. I think Thompson's hands were tied and that Wahle would have no problem coming back. I don't know how good he is now, but if he's close to the level he was when he left, he's definitely worth a look.

[RashanGary]

Colledge had lapses but I didn't think he was horrible. Sometimes I think the memory of the year after our interior line broke up and the year Spitz and Colledge were rookies distorts our view. Everything that goes wrong is looked at as if it's about to fall apart.

I'm really not in a huge hurry to bring in a veteran OG. If anything, I want to keep the competition high with the young guys, bringing in more guys and letting the cream rise to the top. The position is OK, not good, not great, but OK enough to let it sort of naturally resolve itself by always bringing in the most and best young talent you can find.

[KYPack]

Colledge had lapses but I didn't think he was horrible. Sometimes I think the memory of the year after our interior line broke up and the year Spitz and Colledge were rookies distorts our view. Everything that goes wrong is looked at as if it's about to fall apart.

I'm really not in a huge hurry to bring in a veteran OG. If anything, I want to keep the competition high with the young guys, bringing in more guys and letting the cream rise to the top. The position is OK, not good, not great, but OK enough to let it sort of naturally resolve itself by always bringing in the most and best young talent you can find.

Yes, he was horrible.

he was benched after some particulaly bad play. He is OK at pass pro, but he is weak and doesn't have any shove. Member the opening play on Turkey Day. Shaun Rogers threw him into Favre, causing that opening fumble.

I think these guys will improve, but ALL of 'em got benched at one time or the other during the season.

They all sucked against the Giants (but were actually better than NE at pass pro) How about Spitz's "flying wedge phantom block" on that screen to Jackson.

[KYPack]

Bad blood between who?

He got paid. I'm sure he isn't upset. The org never disparaged him.

If wahle is smart, and i gotta believe so as he attended an academy, he knows football is a biz.

The right offer, to a team that could win it all....he could come back.

Yer right "bad blood" isn't the right term, but no way does TT sign Whale.

Anytime a GM makes a move, he won't do anything that makes that move look like a mistake. TT cut big Mike and won't bring him back.

Wahle did have the ass at the Packers. He felt he never got his due here and made comments to that affect. That was on Sherman's watch as GM. He'll wind up elsewhere, probaqbly at a good salary, but not a huge deal like he signed with Car.

Bringing him back doesn't look like a mistake, it proves his point. No different than getting a player to renogiate a contract.

TT signs him for what TT considers good dollar value and TT proves the point.

I'm not predicting he signs here, just don't agree with your logic.

If you wanna make a convincing argument, then you say that signing wahle shows tt made a mistake in his drafting of spitz or colledge.

My logic wasn't good enough for ya, eh TB?

It's hard to explain stuff to a crackhead.

That's my point on both counts. TT went in a different direction & cut Whale (he had to, we know, we know). Bringing back Wahle is a constant reminder of having to cut the boy and his troubles in finding a replacement. Even if Whale came in and played great, he'd be there bringing back the tough situation to everyone's memory.

Thompson don't want that shit and it won't happen. Mike will sign elsewhere.

[twoseven]

I don't know if you watched the Giant and Patriot games, but our guards held up better than their probowl guards. Our Oline played very well down the strech.

I'm not calling our guys all pros, but they're not as bad as they are made out here IMO. The running game was good. The pass pro was good. What else do you want?

People remember that one year and two years ago when Colledge and Spitz were rookies. They really weren't bad this past year. They were a big part of one of the best teams in the league. They're all young and improving players too.

I'm not against Wahle, but I'm not for it just because our current guys are the worst in the NFL like some make it out to be. I don't think that's the case at all and I'd be willing to wager that even if we don't bring in anyone that we'll have a better interior line next year.
Nobody is saying they are the worst in the league, but they are a glaring weakness on a team that cannot afford to go into 08' without significant improvement at their position if we want to go further into January.

Hanging your hat on our ability to not be destroyed by the Giants line is hardly convincing when judging our guards. The Patriots entire offensive line got their asses kicked all night long, how exactly could our line (or anyone else's for that matter) NOT have done better than the Pats OL did that game? If there was a QB rating of sorts for OL the Pats scored about a 27.3 in the SB. Not the best comparison to make a point.

That our tackles neutralized Strahan and Umi does not mean the Giants DTs were absent versus our guards. Grant gained 16 yards total and Brett's pocket was pushed straight back into him often that night. We had absolutely NO running game and failed miserably on screen attempts, did our guards have anything to do with this?

Our guards are undoubtedly our weakest link when you look at our team. Hopefully something more than just crossing our fingers and hoping they get better is on the dockett this offseason.

[twoseven]

I'm really not in a huge hurry to bring in a veteran OG. If anything, I want to keep the competition high with the young guys, bringing in more guys and letting the cream rise to the top. The position is OK, not good, not great, but OK enough to let it sort of naturally resolve itself by always bringing in the most and best young talent you can find.
I'm for shoreing up leaks, not praying for the rain to stop falling.

[RashanGary]

Our guards are undoubtedly our weakest link when you look at our team. Hopefully something more than just crossing our fingers and hoping they get better is on the dockett this offseason.

That's where I disagree with the desperation of many fans. Counting on the young players you brought in and the ones you continue to bring in to get better and be better is not asking the great pumpkin for a miracle. It's acctually the way most teams improve and take that next step.

So do I want to sit and cross my fingers hoping Robert Ferguson takes that next step in his 7th year? No, that would be pretty foolish IMO. Counting on guys who are entering their third years at the OG position isn't exactly praying for the improbable. It's a pretty regular occurance for players to get better early in their careers, esspecially with continuity.

[pbmax]

We pass blocked better than the Pro Bowl guards, but the Giants weren't running the same blitz package that we saw.

Still after the Super Bowl, esp. Mankin having his lunch handed to him by Tuck, I thought our guards had really stepped up in the pass protection department at least in comparison to that game.

But I think we need to give SOME credence to their entire body of work, if for no other reason than the Giants were working on a slow track in Green Bay and had a fast track in Glendale.

And run blocking is a whole 'nother story.




But you have seen our guards play the last two years, that should be more than enough to spark an interest in what Wahle might have left in the tank.

I don't know if you watched the Giant and Patriot games, but our guards held up better than their probowl guards.

[RashanGary]

What goes unmentioned in all of these conversations is how uncommon it is for UFA's to really pan out and how often they blow up in your face. Everyone wants to make a change for the sake of change but the reality is you end up cutting them two years later a lot of the time and then you lose one of your own good ones because of it. Sherman was the master of plugging holes, just like twoseven above. He wasn't the master of calculating risk. That is the big factor nobody ever mentions and the big reason people are so suprised when a team like the Packers kicks ass after not bringing in UFA's and a team like the 49ers sucks ass after bringing in a bunch.

[RashanGary]

No, no, right. Nobody is saying bring in a guy for a lot of money who's going to get injured. They are all saying to bring in guys that who are really good and have no injury problems. Sorry, but that's not how it works.

Here's how it works. 5 teams are deseprate for every position. Every year about three good ones are on the market and the highest bidder wins. Prices get driven up, often times setting up a situation where even if the player plays well, he's indirectly hurting the team by drawing a huge salary and preventing the team from ever takign that next step.

Can you find a gem like Pickett or Woodson? Yeah, but Thompson is very smart with UFA. He takes it when it's there and lets it go when it is not. Everyone freaks out and throws their hands in the air, but there is a reason Thompson keeps making good decisions and everythign works out in hidsight and that reason isn't luck. It's calculating risk and evaluating talent.

Hey, if something is there, I'm all for it. If not, go with what we have and keep raising the competition. Don't use camp competition and improvement from within because you have yoru head in the sand, do it because it works better than UFA much of the time and you're not stupid or desperate.

[twoseven]

Yeah JH, you're right, nobody ever says UFA don't always pan out. :roll:

What a stupid thing it would be to bring in a veteran guard and let Spitz or Colledge actually earn the right to start by beating the veteran out (if that's even possible), versus getting to start by default because they're the only guards we have.

Is some fau big fat money deal what has you all tense? I can assure you we do not have to spend that much money to upgrade the guards. Nobody's talking about Faneca.

BTW, if a vet FA guard (or two) were to come in and our running game and pass protection were significantly improved, what would you be saying then?

[twoseven]

Can you find a gem like Pickett or Woodson? Yeah, but Thompson is very smart with UFA. He takes it when it's there and lets it go when it is not. Everyone freaks out and throws their hands in the air, but there is a reason Thompson keeps making good decisions and everythign works out in hidsight and that reason isn't luck. It's calculating risk and evaluating talent.
You can stop referring to TT like he's been here since the Reagan years weaving his magic. He's only been here for a wink and a nod and hasn't had the money, the motivation, or the roster to act any differently than what he's done. He's gotten by with less because he's had to.

TT has been our GM for a total of three years, not fifteen. None of which were GM'd with 25 mil in cap space for a 13-3 team that was 3 points from the SB, all while being fairly secure at almost every position. Meanwhile, there's a pretty deep crop of FAs out there, not all of them expensive, something you could NOT say about 05'-07'. Will he stand pat, maybe. Does he have to, no. Is he going to screw us by signing a guy, what do you think?

By the way, all any of us in the most recent posts have suggested is our guard play needs to get better. Keep that in mind before you repsond with a post cursing us for wanting to mortagage the Packer's future by draining the cap on FAs that will undoubtedly break their legs in September after they have broken our bank in March.

[Bretsky]

Whale is far superior to any OG on our roster, .


:!: :!: :!: :!:

[Patler]

If you really want to judge the totality of the Packers' play at guard, the glaring characteristic is inconsistency. They have all had good and bad performances, with Colledge swinging from decent to awful, and the others less extreme.

However, by and large, pass protection was decent all year; even when there was no run game and everyone knew the Packers would pass.

Running? Still cant get the yard or two on the ground when needed, BUT in the last nine regular season games (not counting playoffs) they gained 1100 yards on the ground. Somebody was doing something right at least some of the time.

I agree wholeheartedly that the guards need to become much, much more consistent than they have been. Maybe they never will, but I am less concerned than I was last year.

[b bulldog]

DC only seems to play well when he is in MM's dog house. As far as Wahle goes, there was a bit of bad blood between the org and Wahle. Wahle always thought that Marco was the chosen one and that the organization didn't really think that highly of Wahle. I think he may have been a tad jealous that Marco was a fan favorite and he may have just voiced this negative feeling he had when he left.

[Bretsky]

Colledge had lapses but I didn't think he was horrible. Sometimes I think the memory of the year after our interior line broke up and the year Spitz and Colledge were rookies distorts our view. Everything that goes wrong is looked at as if it's about to fall apart.

I'm really not in a huge hurry to bring in a veteran OG. If anything, I want to keep the competition high with the young guys, bringing in more guys and letting the cream rise to the top. The position is OK, not good, not great, but OK enough to let it sort of naturally resolve itself by always bringing in the most and best young talent you can find.

Yes, he was horrible.

he was benched after some particulaly bad play. He is OK at pass pro, but he is weak and doesn't have any shove. Member the opening play on Turkey Day. Shaun Rogers threw him into Favre, causing that opening fumble.

I think these guys will improve, but ALL of 'em got benched at one time or the other during the season.

They all sucked against the Giants (but were actually better than NE at pass pro) How about Spitz's "flying wedge phantom block" on that screen to Jackson.


Completely agree; overall College had a poor year and we need better interior OL play. Wells was alright but he'd be much better with competent OG's. Against the NY Giants MM resorted to keeping in extra blockers to protect the QB. We need both OG's to improve.

I would not expect TT to make a run at Wahle though via free agency

[Patler]

The exasperating thing about Colledge, and I saw this mentioned on one of the "Packer" shows toward the end of the season, time and time again on the long runs that Grant had, it was Colledge who made the key block. I think that is why the coaches have not given up on him. He has his moments when he looks like what they thought he could be.

But man, some times he looks like he doesn't even care. I'm not suggesting that he doesn't care, but he gets beat so badly that he doesn't look like he even tried.

If he doesn't make it, he sure can't complain about not having an opportunity.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd like competition for Colledge, but I'm not ready to write him off yet. His athletic ability is good, but he lacks ideal strength. With hard work, he can get that. I think it's affected his confidence. After watching Wahle, Rivera, Wells, Flanagan, Winters, etc. do little or nothing their first few years in the league, I think one needs to have some patience with these young guys. They don't all come into the league and star right away. However, it would be nice to have a fallback plan.

[KYPack]

The exasperating thing about Colledge, and I saw this mentioned on one of the "Packer" shows toward the end of the season, time and time again on the long runs that Grant had, it was Colledge who made the key block. I think that is why the coaches have not given up on him. He has his moments when he looks like what they thought he could be.

But man, some times he looks like he doesn't even care. I'm not suggesting that he doesn't care, but he gets beat so badly that he doesn't look like he even tried.

If he doesn't make it, he sure can't complain about not having an opportunity.

I know.

He's got skills, espec pass pro and in space. Drive blocking? pulls? the guy can be a total tanglefoot. He isn't NFL strong yet. The big bull rushers just blow him off the line and he needs help. He is also the master of the whiff block. I've never seen a guy totally miss and not even touch his opponent as much as DC.

Went to the last reg season game against the Lions. In garbage time, they put Babre at LG and Colledge at LT. Colledge is a natural T. Light on his feet and quick. He sets up fast and is very comfortable in pass pro. On runs, he can handle the smaller DE's quite well.

I like Barbre at LG. He's got long arms and appears to have more natural sterngth than Colledge. He's still a kid and can be a clumsy bugger at times. He can handle the bull rush (Shaun Rogers did not intimidate him) He's a rook, he fell right on his face in pass pro once.

I'm a hopin' our answers at G come from within. I know some of you guys remember what a klutz Wahle was in his early years.

An FA guard to push/teach the young guys? I think TT believes in coaching the kids up and gettin' em reps.

That may work with this bunch but it sure didn't help Klemm & Will Whitticker.

[]{ilr]3]

I dont think we should break the bank to bring him in. He got that cash he wanted. Maybe now he is ready for that Championship ring and GB looks like the ticket :wink:

Maybe if they bring back Whale we can get something that resembles a screen pass again! 8-)

[Patler]

Rivera didn't even play from scrimmage until his 3rd year. Wahle was in and out his 2nd and 3rd years, not unlike Colledge this year. Of course some of that was the failed attempt to make Wahle a left tackle. Neither were really very good until their 4th and 5th seasons,

I remember an article about the Packer O-line after Rivera's first year as a starter. The conclusion was basically that he would have to be replaced, because his pass protection was so bad, and the most important thing was to keep Favre alive.

[pbmax]

Wahle couldn't find a position either. He was at Tackle at first and looked horrid. Rivera and Andruzzi needed three years and a stop in NFL E if I recall correctly. Flanagan needed to nearly lose his leg before he was ready. So Colledge may not be done yet.

But Harv is right, there has to be a strong backup plan. And knowing T2, Bretsky and KYPack are right, it will be a youngster. Unless Wahle is ultra-cheap.

But I am not worried about Whitticker or Klemm as examples. Klemm was a vet that had injuries and his experience was at tackle. He did not make a smooth transition to guard for Sherman. Whitticker had a big downside as he had all the physical tools, but couldn't even get it together in college.

The problem, as with any build by the draft system, is time. The answer could be on the roster but won't be ready for 2 more years.



The exasperating thing about Colledge, and I saw this mentioned on one of the "Packer" shows toward the end of the season, time and time again on the long runs that Grant had, it was Colledge who made the key block. I think that is why the coaches have not given up on him. He has his moments when he looks like what they thought he could be.

But man, some times he looks like he doesn't even care. I'm not suggesting that he doesn't care, but he gets beat so badly that he doesn't look like he even tried.

If he doesn't make it, he sure can't complain about not having an opportunity.

I know.

He's got skills, espec pass pro and in space. Drive blocking? pulls? the guy can be a total tanglefoot. He isn't NFL strong yet. The big bull rushers just blow him off the line and he needs help.

Went to the last reg season game against the Lions. In garbage time, they put Babre at LG and Colledge at LT. Colledge is a natural T. Light on his feet and quick. He sets up fast and is very comfortable in pass pro. On runs, he can handle the smaller DE's quite well.

I like Barbre at LG. He's got long arms and appears to have more natural sterngth than Colledge. He's still a kid and can be a clumsy bugger at times. He can handle the bull rush (Shaun Rogers did not intimidate him) He's a rook, he fell right on his face in pass pro once.

I'm a hopin' our answers at G come from within. I know some of you guys remember what a klutz Wahle was in his early years.

An FA guard to push/teach the young guys? I think TT believes in coaching the kids up and gettin' em reps.

That may work with this bunch but it sure didn't help Klemm & Will Whitticker.

[Patler]

I really can't criticize Whitticker. He was a rookie when he played here, and he was a 7th round draft pick at that. Not only a 7th rounder, he was their 2nd pick in the 7th, after Kurt Campbell. He was the 246th pick in the draft. He was only 9 picks ahead of "Mr. Irrelevant" in that draft. Realistically, I think he out performed expectations, because not much was really expected of him. Certainly he was not drafted in the 7th round to be a starter as a rookie. Once MM arrived with his new blocking system, Whittacker was not suited.

I posted an article last fall about him with the Redskins. He looked to be at least their #3 guard this year and maybe even a starter until he got hurt.

[Patler]

Barbre was the 119th pick this year. We should have a lot higher expectations for him than we ever had for Whitticker at #246..

[KYPack]

Rivera didn't even play from scrimmage until his 3rd year. Wahle was in and out his 2nd and 3rd years, not unlike Colledge this year. Of course some of that was the failed attempt to make Wahle a left tackle. Neither were really very good until their 4th and 5th seasons,

I remember an article about the Packer O-line after Rivera's first year as a starter. The conclusion was basically that he would have to be replaced, because his pass protection was so bad, and the most important thing was to keep Favre alive.

You are right, sir.

Wahle was a terrible LT. My brother and I called him the "parking meter". It seems like he was rooted into position at tackle. Rivera was a LG at first. The worst starting guard I've ever seen for the Packers was Will Whitticker. Rivera is a close second, Marco would get bull rushed right on his ear.

The turn around for that line was Clifton being installed at LT, Wahle LG, and Rivera at RG. Those boys gelled and were a force for 4 -5 years.

[Deputy Nutz]

But you have seen our guards play the last two years, that should be more than enough to spark an interest in what Wahle might have left in the tank.

I don't know if you watched the Giant and Patriot games, but our guards held up better than their probowl guards. Our Oline played very well down the strech.

I'm not calling our guys all pros, but they're not as bad as they are made out here IMO. The running game was good. The pass pro was good. What else do you want?

People remember that one year and two years ago when Colledge and Spitz were rookies. They really weren't bad this past year. They were a big part of one of the best teams in the league. They're all young and improving players too.

I'm not against Wahle, but I'm not for it just because our current guys are the worst in the NFL like some make it out to be. I don't think that's the case at all and I'd be willing to wager that even if we don't bring in anyone that we'll have a better interior line next year.

At two points this year Colledge was benched in favor of Junius "doodle bug" Coston. That should tell you all you need to know about the 2007 season for Daryn Colledge.

I am one that still thinks there is still a lot of upside to Colledge, more so at left tackle than at left guard, but he shows these glimpses of ability, but his consistency and his lack of strength at the point is still a concern and it might put him on the bench for an indefinite amount of time until he can be either groomed as a left tackle where he can get away with a little bit more finesse then having to generate horse power from his legs on up. Colledge is not a strongman contestant like Mike Wahle for instance, he is around 300 pounds and 6-4. that is skinny in terms of offensive linemen now a days. Colledge can return to guard if he bulks up and improves his concentration and footwork than he might actually become an above average guard.

[Patler]

Wahle was a terrible LT. My brother and I called him the "parking meter". It seems like he was rooted into position at tackle. Rivera was a LG at first. The worst starting guard I've ever seen for the Packers was Will Whitticker. Rivera is a close second, Marco would get bull rushed right on his ear.

The turn around for that line was Clifton being installed at LT, Wahle LG, and Rivera at RG. Those boys gelled and were a force for 4 -5 years.

Rivera moved to RG in 1999 when Timmerman left in free agency. Wahle started some that year at LG, along with McKenzie. Verba was LT. Wolf always thought Wahle should be a left tackle, and in 2000 they tried to reverse Verba and Wahle. Wahle flopped at LT and was replaced by Clifton after a few games. Verba stayed at guard and Wahle went to the bench. Tauscher had already replaced Dotson due to a season ending injury. In 2001 Wahle went back to LG when Verba left.

Too bad it couldn't have stayed together a little longer than it did, although Rivera was pretty much done for already when he left anyway.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Wow, some of you are overly critical.

1. ( Wahle) It is possible to have too good of a contract. Being overpaid will get you cut. If happeneed to Jerry Rice it can happen to Mike Wahle. It happened with the Packers and now with the Panthers. The Panthers got 3 seasons out of him. Now he's an old player without a team. He'll sign with a lesser rebuilding team like the 49'ers.

2. (Colledge) He is a Tackle. He is playing Guard to gain experience. After 2 seasons he is ahead of where Wahle, Andruzzi, and Rivera were in their careers. The weakness he has that is most exploited is blocking against stunts.

His weight room records in college were in leg strength. He is better in space than heads up. Barbre is raw but better suited to Guard. Long term I forsee College taking over for Clifton and Barbre at Guard.

One last thing. Colledge is a good attitude guy. It may be that he was playing through an injury last season. I'm not worried about his work ethic.

[run pMc]

I think they pass on Wahle. I doubt TT cares whether it looks like he's admitting a mistake (which he isn't), but I do think he's more interested in seeing what the young guys look like after another offseason. I also think he'll draft one more player to push the current group...they have to find 3 competent, consistent players between Moll, DC, Spitz, Coston, Palmer, and Barbre.

I agree with Patler that consistency has been the killer for the OL...and DC especially.

Wahle will go someplace like Tampa or Oakland. I got the impression he didn't enjoy his time here, so why would he come back? Even if GB wanted him in for a workout and a chat, I'm guessing there are about 4-5 other teams who would be higher on Wahle's list.

[The Leaper]

Bringing him back doesn't look like a mistake, it proves his point. No different than getting a player to renogiate a contract.

I agree with Tyrone here.

Wahle was due a ridiculously high roster bonus, and he was the one who basically decided to not bother giving Green Bay a real shot at him and made a beeline for Carolina.

The fact Wahle doesn't have a job right now proves Thompson's point.

However, I agree that Thompson isn't likely to look at Wahle...not because of the past history, but because of his age and waning skills.

[KYPack]

Well, I think it's pretty obvious we won't pursue Wahle for all of the above reasons.

When I started this thread, I thought there would be some comment on Morgan, but I guess it's the unspoken consensus that Dan is all hit out and we don't need an aging MLB anyway.

[cheesner]

There was significant improvement for the OL this year over last year. I would not be surprised to see the same jump next year. That would put our line at 'above average' as they were below to average this year.

Our young guys are only going to get better. Wahle is only going to get worse at this point.

[Merlin]

Thompson never even tried to keep either Wahle or Rivera. He never even attempted to negotiate. He could have kept one or the other but more then likely the one that he could have kept would have been Rivera and he was definitely towards the end of his career. he maybe had one more good season in him had he stayed in Green Bay. Wahle was due the pay day on a back loaded contract and he found a team willing to pay him a lot of money to come play for them. More money then a guard is worth IMO.

Thompson thought he knew better and here we sit looking at going into Thompson's 4th season with this guard issue not settled. How come when Wahle and/or Rivera went down due to injury we had people that stepped in and did the job and now we are struggling to find two that can start and play consistently? this will mark the 3rd season for Colledge, Spitz and Coston (I think). Is this the "hump" year?

Wahle has an injury history and was cut by Carolina for the same reason Thompson let him go, too much cap space. To bring in a veteran of his cailber who has a few years left in the tank to fight for a starting position on an OL with inconsistent guard play is not a bad move. The "youth" movement can work only so far and after 3 seasons of merry go round at guard and little development of replacement tackles for Tauscher and Clifton, our OL is not in great shape for the future.

The argument for youth is all fine and good but so is the argument for veteran leadership and player development. Our OL is in disarray. Clifton and Tauscher were two of the best in the game, they are still good but both have been beaten up over the years in the NFL and are starting to slip a little. Wells has been a solid center and Spitz has proven he can take over there when needed. Outside of the Center position, we are in trouble unless there is some development and competition at the other positions. I suspect Clifton and Tauscher will only play a few more years at the most. Wahle probably a few more as well. There is something to be said for having a solid OL and solid backup OL. We have not had that in three seasons now and it's time for Teddy to do his job. Especially if Rodgers is our QB. One or two hits and he will be out for the season.

[KYPack]

Merlin

That should be 14-4 in yer sig.

We lost that last one.

[The Leaper]

Thompson never even tried to keep either Wahle or Rivera. He never even attempted to negotiate. He could have kept one or the other but more then likely the one that he could have kept would have been Rivera and he was definitely towards the end of his career.

How can you say he never tried...when Rivera got a ridiculous deal that would have been foolish to even try to match and Wahle wanted out of town? The only way Thompson could've tried to keep either guy was to foolishly overspend...which wasn't even possible considering the cap situation Thompson inherited.

I'm fine with the questions on how Thompson has filled those vacancies to this point. The inconsistency on the interior OL is a major weakness of this team right now. However, any questioning regarding how and why those two guys left is pointless...we know why they left and that Thompson never really had a chance to keep either one even had he wanted to.

Claiming he could've kept one or the other is just flat out incorrect...and to think Rivera was the guy we should've kept is just flat out dumb. The guy was used up...we knew it. He was worth barely more than a minimum deal as a 32 year old guard with a lot of wear and tear. He got a $20M deal with a $9M signing bonus...which he offered to give back to Jerry Jones because Rivera never really did anything on the field for Dallas.

[Patler]

Thompson never even tried to keep either Wahle or Rivera. He never even attempted to negotiate.

That statement is flat out incorrect. The following is an excerpt from an article in the Milwaukee Journal on March 1, 2005:


On Tuesday, the Packers cut their starting left guard, releasing him to the free-agent market where in a very short while he'll be a man of many riches. After discussing several deals of varying lengths and value, Wahle and the Packers were unable to agree on a renegotiated contract that would reduce his salary cap number of $11.375 million.

"We spent the past couple of weeks in talks that intensified this weekend, and we'll continue to talk," said Neil Cornrich, Wahle's agent. "Regardless of his status, we'll still talk."
....
The club negotiated with guard Marco Rivera through the day Tuesday, but was unable to reach a contract agreement before the start of free agency. Though Rivera became an unrestricted free agent at midnight, the Packers are very interested in re-signing him and are expected to continue negotiations today.

The Packers apparently decided they were going to let the market dictate Rivera's worth and weren't going to make the same mistake they made two years ago when they overestimated the interest in defensive tackle Cletidus Hunt before the start of free agency.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

There you go again patler with your fancy research, book lernin, and stuff.

Ain't gonna change the fact that TT didn't do nuttin to keep wahle.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, isn't this an interesting turn of events. Merlin, how would you like to respond? Were all waiting breathlessly.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Purple yet, Scott?

[Iron Mike]

There you go again patler with your fancy research, book lernin, and stuff.

Ain't gonna change the fact that TT didn't do nuttin to keep wahle.

Don't you mean Whale???

[Zool]

Thompson never even tried to keep either Wahle or Rivera. He never even attempted to negotiate.

That statement is flat out incorrect. The following is an excerpt from an article in the Milwaukee Journal on March 1, 2005:


On Tuesday, the Packers cut their starting left guard, releasing him to the free-agent market where in a very short while he'll be a man of many riches. After discussing several deals of varying lengths and value, Wahle and the Packers were unable to agree on a renegotiated contract that would reduce his salary cap number of $11.375 million.

"We spent the past couple of weeks in talks that intensified this weekend, and we'll continue to talk," said Neil Cornrich, Wahle's agent. "Regardless of his status, we'll still talk."
....
The club negotiated with guard Marco Rivera through the day Tuesday, but was unable to reach a contract agreement before the start of free agency. Though Rivera became an unrestricted free agent at midnight, the Packers are very interested in re-signing him and are expected to continue negotiations today.

The Packers apparently decided they were going to let the market dictate Rivera's worth and weren't going to make the same mistake they made two years ago when they overestimated the interest in defensive tackle Cletidus Hunt before the start of free agency.


Facts getting in the way of yet another perfectly good rant. I wont stand for it.

[Fritz]

Thompson never even tried to keep either Wahle or Rivera. He never even attempted to negotiate.

That statement is flat out incorrect. The following is an excerpt from an article in the Milwaukee Journal on March 1, 2005:


On Tuesday, the Packers cut their starting left guard, releasing him to the free-agent market where in a very short while he'll be a man of many riches. After discussing several deals of varying lengths and value, Wahle and the Packers were unable to agree on a renegotiated contract that would reduce his salary cap number of $11.375 million.

"We spent the past couple of weeks in talks that intensified this weekend, and we'll continue to talk," said Neil Cornrich, Wahle's agent. "Regardless of his status, we'll still talk."
....
The club negotiated with guard Marco Rivera through the day Tuesday, but was unable to reach a contract agreement before the start of free agency. Though Rivera became an unrestricted free agent at midnight, the Packers are very interested in re-signing him and are expected to continue negotiations today.

The Packers apparently decided they were going to let the market dictate Rivera's worth and weren't going to make the same mistake they made two years ago when they overestimated the interest in defensive tackle Cletidus Hunt before the start of free agency.



MERLIN GOT PATLERED!

[Fritz]

Oh, Dan Morgan - sorry KY.

I think they should sign him and move Nick Barnett over to Poppinga's spot!!!!

Yay!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wahle just signed with Seattle.

[packinpatland]

Wahle just signed with Seattle.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/02/14/wahle.seattle/index.html

[Bretsky]

Wahle just signed with Seattle.

No surprise there

[KYPack]

Oh, Dan Morgan - sorry KY.

I think they should sign him and move Nick Barnett over to Poppinga's spot!!!!

Yay!

Thanks Fritz,

I really wasn't "begging" for a response. For a long time, there was a lot of "pining" for Morgam. Some thought we shudda drafted the boy. Now, nobody gives a shit about him.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

TT blew it again. First he made NO EFFORT to resign him and he left. Now, we had a perfect opportunity to sign him and TT made no effort.

TT must go.

[KYPack]

The Seattle Seahawks signed former Pro Bowl guard Mike Wahle to a five-year contract Thursday.

Agent Neil Cornrich declined to specify the value of the deal, but it is believed to be comparable to what other starting guards in the league earn. That would mean approximately $3 million in base salary, plus many more millions in a signing bonus.

Wahle, a 10-year veteran who was selected to the Pro Bowl in 2005 and '06 while with Carolina, earned $18 million in base salary and bonuses in his last three seasons with the Panthers before they cut him Monday in a salary-cap move

(Tell us what the SB was, we actually care about shit like that)

The SB will come out in the next 10 days or so.

[Fritz]

Oh, Dan Morgan - sorry KY.

I think they should sign him and move Nick Barnett over to Poppinga's spot!!!!

Yay!

Thanks Fritz,

I really wasn't "begging" for a response. For a long time, there was a lot of "pining" for Morgam. Some thought we shudda drafted the boy. Now, nobody gives a shit about him.


Hey, what about me? didn't I jump up and say the Pack oughta sign him and move Barnett over?

By the by, I do wonder how many threads there have been that have in some way, shape, or form suggested that Barnett should be moved from the middle. I note that my effort to resurrect that fun has fallen flat. Does this mean that Packer fans have finally accepted poor ol' Nick?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Mike Flanagan was released last week also. Wahle had a couple of good seasons with Carolina, but it's kind of interesting how Wahle, Flanagan, and Rivera as a whole didn't really help their new teams all that much.