Offensive Line Is The Key

[Merlin]

I wouldn't say that the Packers "stacked" their defense this year, but that did seem to be the primary focus this off season. The Defense comes down to two factors: 1 - Can they maintain the passion they had last year under Bates without Bates? and 2 - Can the new additions gel before the start of the season? We all saw what happened to the Vikings last year. They acquired some big names and were a big flop on defense because they didn't gel until towards the end of the season. Even this year the Vikings are busy replacing guys from last years squad. We have our defense largely intact from last year and have added some good players and depth.

With that said (as you can tell I am not too concerned about the defense), it's time to focus on what will be the key to the Packers success or lack-there-of this season, the Offensive Line. Unlike last year when we lost two Pro-Bowl Guards, this year we lost a Center that has been injured most of the past two seasons. I think the biggest loss on the line this season wasn't Flannigan but Grey Rugemer. He stepped in for Flannigan while he was injured and outside of the first game he started, he was pretty solid for us. If you remember correctly when Flannigan went down a few years ago, Wells stepped in and was a colossal flop. That isn't to say he hasn't stepped it up since his rookie year, I just remember what he did we called upon him that season. Rugemer stepped in and played every where for us and did consistently well. Why he wasn't named a starting guard last year is beyond me. Our offensive line never gelled and played musical chairs more then our running backs did with injuries.

The lessons learned from last year are still around, Adrian Klemm, a career backup who has never been healthy enough to learn the NFL game. My understanding is that with the zone blocking scheme you want smaller, quicker offensive linemen and we definitely have the "small" taken care of. We have two of the best tackles in the NFL, Mark Tauscher and Chad Clifton. The only issue I see there is that Tauscher isn't as quick as he used to be with his bad knees and Clifton had the major hip surgery from Sapp a few years back and that may also affect his athleticism although it didn't seem to last year. He has been doing a great job protecting Favre's blind side for years. I don't know how much movement the tackles are required to do but I am hopeful that because they both pull very well that these guys will continue to be solid for us. McCarthy has to name his starting offensive line early enough for the players to gel. This is no small task because not only are there three spots up for grabs, outside of Tauscher and Clifton, no one on our roster has a full season starting under their belt and if you throw out Klemm, there are 5 rookies and 5 players with 3 or less years of experience. To say we will have a young offensive line is like saying David Carr gets sacked a lot. Hopefully this youth won't add up to "Favre gets sacked a lot".

I am going to forget for a minute that we are running the zone blocking scheme with smaller and quicker linemen. Historically, the center is supposed to be a monster, the anchor of the line. Flanigan was a slender 301 but was 6'5" tall. Frank Winters was 305 and 6'3", about the smallest you would want for a center. Our long snapper Rob Davis is 284 and 6'3", hardly center material. This brings us down to the one veteran with any NFL experience, Scott Wells at 304 & 6'2". He is cut from the Frank Winters mold, he has the skills to take it to the next level, but will he? He seems to play good one game then flop the next. I believe Wells is a Center and that's it. Forget the guard experiment, that was a disaster. Jason Spitz at 313 & 6'4" looks promising and also looks like a good sized center, can he take it to the next level? Look for Wayne Lucier to surprise you at 315 & 6'4". He has good size and good technique and hasn't really been given a chance to shine yet in the NFL, I look for this to be a good competition. It's time for Wells to step up and play like Frank Winters or he is just another career backup waiting to happen. Unless we pick up a center in free agency, look for all of these guys on the roster come opening day. My money is on Lucier the dark horse to be the starting center with Spitz a close #2 and Wells a backup guard.

Last and definitely not least, the guards. I see some good things here. Will Whitticker should and will be one of the starting guards although he is the biggest lineman we have at 338. He had his struggles last year but he played reasonably well for a rookie. The zone blocking scheme should fit him well as he seemed to be able to move well when called upon although his technique needs some work. The other guard I see is Daryn Colledge 299 & 6'4", although he is small, he makes up for it in technique and athleticism. The zone blocking scheme is easy to learn, the hard part us unlearning everything else you thought you knew about blocking. Being that he is a rookie, I think his will be the easiest transition into the scheme. Look for Tony Moll 308 & 6'5", Junius Coston 317 & 6'3" to make the roster as well.

I think Kevin Barry is pretty much been relegated to a backup tackle unless his injury is extreme, then the Packers would be best to place him on IR and pick up another backup tackle elsewhere. Adrian Klemm is done as a Packer, I just don't see him making the roster with all of the young studs we have. My dark horse to make the roster is Josh Bourke 314 & 6'7", the guy is HUGE, outside of that I don't know a thing about him. But having someone who is 6'7" on your team can't hurt right?

I don't think the health of our running backs is a concern as long as Green & Davenport come back healthy, I believe we have two good replacements in Gado and Heron in case one or both of them go down. This will all boil down to one thing, "intelligence". With the mistakes of last years F.U.B.A.R. of an offensive coaching staff, hopefully a painful lesson was learned - you have to name your offensive line starters before pre-season and allow them to gel before the season starts. The offensive line is different then any another other part of the game. You can lose one piece and still function, you can't lose 2-3 pieces and function without PRACTICE together as unit. The offensive line has to know each other inside and out. They have to know what to do when the another lineman does this, etc. Without that crucial time to gel and become a single, whole unit, our offense is doomed. I trust that McCarthy isn't as stubborn as Sherman and will make the right call here. I said the same thing about the offensive line last year before the preseason and the starters really weren't in place until after the last preseason game. I said it then and I will say it again, if they do not have a solid starting offensive line going into preseason, it will be another long year as a Packer Fan.

[Partial]

if by "stack defense" you mean field an almost average defense I agree with your assessment :D

The OL will probably be a big factor as to how far they go this season. Sadly, I think they're throwing all their eggs in the baskets of some inexperienced guys. Here's hoping they surprise and impress!

[Rastak]

if by "stack defense" you mean field an almost average defense I agree with your assessment :D

The OL will probably be a big factor as to how far they go this season. Sadly, I think they're throwing all their eggs in the baskets of some inexperienced guys. Here's hoping they surprise and impress!


Actually who will have more FA starters on defense, Minnesota or Green Bay?
Green Bay
Pickett DT
Allen DT? (Not sure if he will start)
Ben Taylor (Not sure if he'll start)
Woodson CB
Manual S


That's the potential of 5 new FA starters...6 if Hawk starts.

Minnesota
DE Dequincy Scott (unlikely to start)
LB Leber
S Tank Williams (50/50 he starts over Offord)

Maybe add Greenway if he wins the job as a rookie.


Minne will have a new MLB but it will most likely come from a guy already there. So I think Green Bay may end up having the larger turnover.
Last year the Vikings had the same defensive system but lots of new starters and it did take a while to gel. Green Bay could easily experience that.

Minnesota's potential problems are with a new coaching staff and a new defensive system, that could take time for sure which could equal another slow start for them also.

[Partial]

Minn is gonna be a really really good team if their two young DEs pan out. Pat and Kevin Williams in the middle is just sick. Pair that with Erasmus and Keneche and it could be dominating

[Joemailman]

Merlin,

I agree with you on the importance of the offensive line. Sherman screwed up big time last year by failing to settle on a starting five until the week before the season opener. However, I disagree with you on Wells. I think he will be fine if they can just leave him at Center. He started at Guard last year just because Klemm and WShitticker were so bad.

Nice call on Lucier though. I didn't realize he has been a starter before with the Giants. He should have a real chance to make the team as a Center, and could even be a replacement at Guard if Coston or Colledge aren't ready.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Minn is gonna be a really really good team if their two young DEs pan out. Pat and Kevin Williams in the middle is just sick. Pair that with Erasmus and Keneche and it could be dominating

I doubt whether their defense will be good or not depends on Williams & Williams. They'll be good. They have been good. Their defense will be good IF they can find three solid LBs, the DEs improve, Smoot is better than last year, and/or they find a solid safety between Tank and Offord.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Minne will have a new MLB but it will most likely come from a guy already there. So I think Green Bay may end up having the larger turnover.
Last year the Vikings had the same defensive system but lots of new starters and it did take a while to gel. Green Bay could easily experience that.

Minnesota's potential problems are with a new coaching staff and a new defensive system, that could take time for sure which could equal another slow start for them also.

Allen is very unlikely to start. In fact, he's 50-50 on making the roster. That means likely new starters for Green Bay: Pickett, Manuel, Woodson, Hawk, Taylor/Hodge. That's quite a bit, but I think all could be upgrades. Don't forget that Minnesota is learning a new defense--which basically means all 11 players will be new to the scheme. I think that's bigger than turning over almost 1/2 the roster.

[Rastak]

Minne will have a new MLB but it will most likely come from a guy already there. So I think Green Bay may end up having the larger turnover.
Last year the Vikings had the same defensive system but lots of new starters and it did take a while to gel. Green Bay could easily experience that.

Minnesota's potential problems are with a new coaching staff and a new defensive system, that could take time for sure which could equal another slow start for them also.

Allen is very unlikely to start. In fact, he's 50-50 on making the roster. That means likely new starters for Green Bay: Pickett, Manuel, Woodson, Hawk, Taylor/Hodge. That's quite a bit, but I think all could be upgrades. Don't forget that Minnesota is learning a new defense--which basically means all 11 players will be new to the scheme. I think that's bigger than turning over almost 1/2 the roster.


Yea, I mentioned that. :lol: Yea, I didn't know what they planned for Allen.
My over-riding point is that both teams could take a while to gel on D. GB has a better staff continuity (but with a new DC, is Saunders as good as Bates?) but more of a player turnover and Minnesota is implementing an entire new system. Anyway, sorry to the original poster, this has nothing to do with offense.

[HarveyWallbangers]

(but with a new DC, is Saunders as good as Bates?)

True, but really we don't know if Tomlin is going to be better than Cottrell either. It's also assumed that Childress will be better than Tice and McCarthy will be better than Sherman. All that is to be determined. Should be interesting.

[Partial]

Minn is gonna be a really really good team if their two young DEs pan out. Pat and Kevin Williams in the middle is just sick. Pair that with Erasmus and Keneche and it could be dominating

I doubt whether their defense will be good or not depends on Williams & Williams. They'll be good. They have been good. Their defense will be good IF they can find three solid LBs, the DEs improve, Smoot is better than last year, and/or they find a solid safety between Tank and Offord.

I said DEs. If James and Udeze live up to their first round potential then watch out.

[Bretsky]

Merlin,

Great points and I agree on everything except one biggie. Whittaker as a starter would spell more disaster for Green Bay. He's slow, and not strong enough. He was a boy among men last year when being overpowered by any high caliber DL.

If another guard cannot beat out Will Whittaker we're going to be frustrated watching the internal pocket collapse on Favre.

B

[Noodle]

Bretsky, I agree that Whit got thrown around like a rag doll, but I'm not sure how much our offense is going to rely on a classic pocket. I'm not all that confident that Colledge has enough junk in his trunk to do any better than Whit at withstanding a serious bull rush. Same with Coston.

So we're living or dying on shorter drops and roll outs, I guess. At least, that seems to be what the Os in Denver and Atlanta have done with their zone blocking linemen.

I also don't think you have to be a monster to play center, and I always thought centers tended to be the smallest guy on the line, though that's a relative term given the size of these guys. Give me a smart guy who makes good line calls over a stack of dumb meat any day. I'm thinking Wells, with his understanding of leverage from his wrestling days, is gonna do fine.

[wist43]

Whitticker was an unmitigated disaster last year. Why he even saw the field is beyond me... I'd be surprised if he even makes the team.

At this early stage, Colledge is pencilled in at LG and Coston was running with the #1 unit in mini-camp. Coston seems to have added weight and strength; and, given the alternatives, I'd prefer to see him take the job and make it his.

At Center, I'd prefer Spitz or White over Wells. I just don't think Wells has the feet, balance, or leverage to play at a high level. He's very young, however, and he may come around; but, what I've seen to date isn't encouraging. If Wells gets rag-dolled like he did last year, they'll have no choice but to replace him. I think he ran with the first unit during the mini-camp. If Wells doesn't produce, I'd prefer to see Spitz in there.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I said DEs. If James and Udeze live up to their first round potential then watch out.

My bad. Yeah, good point. Personally, I think their defense is a long way from being sick. Their defense was worse than Green Bay's defense for the most part last year. They added Greenway, Leber, and Tank--but lost Johnstone, Cowart, Williams, and Chavous. Leber could be a good fit. Tank was a shell of himself the last two years, but could be okay if he returns to the guy of 2003. I'm iffy on Greenway. I think there's doubts whether he's physical enough yet. I think it will take a year before he's good. He has to get stronger. Even if the DEs pan out, they still have issues at LB, CB, and S. Of course, if they do pan out, it bodes very well for them. That would mean they'd have a hell of a front four.

[Tarlam!]

Merlin, you started your post by making an assessment about stacking the defense. Da Bears' defense was what won them the division last season, that "O" was below average.

I think it was wise to take the pressure offf of our "O" at last by providing them with a defense that is capable of creating turnovers and defending field position.

Last year, we were good against the pass mostly because we were pathetic against the run!

I agree that our O-Line holds a lot of the "key", but our ability to defend against the run is equally important. We need to keep our defense off the field and fresh. Defending long, physical drives founded on running the ball is what we need to avoid.

[Rastak]

I said DEs. If James and Udeze live up to their first round potential then watch out.

My bad. Yeah, good point. Personally, I think their defense is a long way from being sick. Their defense was worse than Green Bay's defense for the most part last year. They added Greenway, Leber, and Tank--but lost Johnstone, Cowart, Williams, and Chavous. Leber could be a good fit. Tank was a shell of himself the last two years, but could be okay if he returns to the guy of 2003. I'm iffy on Greenway. I think there's doubts whether he's physical enough yet. I think it will take a year before he's good. He has to get stronger. Even if the DEs pan out, they still have issues at LB, CB, and S. Of course, if they do pan out, it bodes very well for them. That would mean they'd have a hell of a front four.


I think Greenway will be ok in coverage but can he hold up against the run? Offord and Tank Williams are both hard hitting safties of the same mold and Winfield is a sure tackler so I think their run defense will be ok. Cowart was OK but didn't fit the tampa 2. Johnstone was a good situational player who's getting pretty long in the tooth. MLB is the biggest question. Coaching is the 2nd biggest in my mind. I like the Texas CB they picked in the draft and they have a couple of young guys that look promising. Edwards and Whitaker. I know Edwards took one to the house against the Pack last year.

It's all gonna come down to coaching I think for Minnesota, good or bad. For Green Bay, I think it's defensive line that will be key. If Colin Cole can play out of his head again and Kampman , KGB play very well Green Bay's defense will be very solid. I think Green Bay's question marks at defensive coaching are far less than Minnesota's. We'll have to see Manual in action and of course Hawk is a rookie but I'd be looking forward to watching that whole group if I were you guys. I'm predicting a top 15 defense for Green Bay.

[Merlin]

Merlin,

I agree with you on the importance of the offensive line. Sherman screwed up big time last year by failing to settle on a starting five until the week before the season opener. However, I disagree with you on Wells. I think he will be fine if they can just leave him at Center. He started at Guard last year just because Klemm and WShitticker were so bad.

Nice call on Lucier though. I didn't realize he has been a starter before with the Giants. He should have a real chance to make the team as a Center, and could even be a replacement at Guard if Coston or Colledge aren't ready.

I agreed with you, Wells is just a Center, nothing more. He needs to step it up if he is to win the job though. Lucier could be very good.

[wist43]

I said DEs. If James and Udeze live up to their first round potential then watch out.

My bad. Yeah, good point. Personally, I think their defense is a long way from being sick. Their defense was worse than Green Bay's defense for the most part last year. They added Greenway, Leber, and Tank--but lost Johnstone, Cowart, Williams, and Chavous. Leber could be a good fit. Tank was a shell of himself the last two years, but could be okay if he returns to the guy of 2003. I'm iffy on Greenway. I think there's doubts whether he's physical enough yet. I think it will take a year before he's good. He has to get stronger. Even if the DEs pan out, they still have issues at LB, CB, and S. Of course, if they do pan out, it bodes very well for them. That would mean they'd have a hell of a front four.


I think Greenway will be ok in coverage but can he hold up against the run? Offord and Tank Williams are both hard hitting safties of the same mold and Winfield is a sure tackler so I think their run defense will be ok. Cowart was OK but didn't fit the tampa 2. Johnstone was a good situational player who's getting pretty long in the tooth. MLB is the biggest question. Coaching is the 2nd biggest in my mind. I like the Texas CB they picked in the draft and they have a couple of young guys that look promising. Edwards and Whitaker. I know Edwards took one to the house against the Pack last year.

It's all gonna come down to coaching I think for Minnesota, good or bad. For Green Bay, I think it's defensive line that will be key. If Colin Cole can play out of his head again and Kampman , KGB play very well Green Bay's defense will be very solid. I think Green Bay's question marks at defensive coaching are far less than Minnesota's. We'll have to see Manual in action and of course Hawk is a rookie but I'd be looking forward to watching that whole group if I were you guys. I'm predicting a top 15 defense for Green Bay.

Green Bay's back seven will be better, but with no pass rush it's going to be difficult for them to be better than average. Look up "pedestrian" in the dictionary - it says: Packers DL.

As for Minnesota, I don't like Greenway at all, but I still think Minnesota's defense is much better than Green Bay's... Green Bay doesn't have anybody on their roster like Kevin Williams - he's a stud in the middle of that line.

[Bossman641]

I thought Wells played OK at center. It was at guard where he really struggled with bull rushes.

As for our DL, it all depends on the play of the DE's. I like our set of DT's. There's definitely not any stud in there, but they all bring a little something different to the table and can be mixed and matched to counter what the offense wants to do.

Montgomery needs to make a big step this year. There's no way that KGB and Kamp can play 90-95% of the snaps or whatever the number was like they did last year. I think we'll have a legit top 10 defense.

[gureski]

Allen is very unlikely to start. In fact, he's 50-50 on making the roster.

How could you make this assertion so early in the process? It's not like Allen is some practice squad kid or something.

I'm completely the other direction. Not only do I feel Allen is a great pick up for the team and that he will certainly make the roster and be an active part of the DT rotation..... I believe he is 50-50 to start!

I base my thoughts on Allen's background, his size, and the fact that some of the younger D-lineman on the team are about to be shown the door. It's early so I can't say I'm certainly right but with respects to your comments that Allen certainly wont start and is only 50-50 to make the team..... I don't see who exactly on the team is so good that they're elbowing Allen out of even competing for a starting job much less shoving him right to the street.

[gureski]

I've been looking for an opening to bring something up that I think is being overshadowed and that something is the version of the West Coast Offense that McCarthy and Jagodinski are bringing to G.B. and how this will determine the success or failure of the O-line this year.

For those of you that were around and attentive during the first years of the Holmgren/Wolf tenure.... think back to the offensive style that was played back then. Our O-line was nothing to brag about back then and they were playing with over the hill, past their prime players in guys like Tootie Robbins and Guy MacNtyre. Holmgren called short drops and short routes. Lots of TE stuff and dump offs to the RB's. Yes, some of that was due to the fact that the team lacked a true #2 WR next to S.Sharpe and a legitimate starting RB BUT it also was happening that way because of the way they ran the West Coast Offense. Some of that playcalling covered up the shortcomings of the offensive line. In essance, they made it work with what they had by utilizing the West Coast offense and its short drops and short routes. They spread the ball around. All that took the pressure off the O-line and made it play better then it probably should've if you looked at it on paper.

Can utilizing the West Coast Offense do the same thing to the current O-line unit that looks weak on paper?

In my opinion, this is the key to whether or not the O-line has success this year. It's not the zone blocking scheme....rather it's the verion of the West Coast that these guys use and the plays they call. If McCarthy uses the West Coast Offense properly, he can cover up some of the weakness of the interior of the O-line. One of the valid criticisms of Sherman/Rossley last year was that they kept running the same plays after key players were injured (or signed to other teams). They never seemed to deviate from their normal offensive philosophy until late in the season.

The main point is that the biggest "X" factor regarding the success of the O-line will involve the playcalling and utilization of the West Coast Offense by McCarthy and Jagodinski. The West Coast Offense has proven in the Packers past to be a means of covering up weaknesses on the offensive line. If they start the short stuff again and spread the ball around more including the TE spot........that will go a long way towards helping the O-line look good in 2006.

[jack's smirking revenge]

In regards to Allen, I've talked to a few Giants fans and they were GREATLY disappointed at the loss of that player, think we picked up a blossoming talent. Will that translate onto the Lambeau grass? Who knows. But I think its too early to dismiss him.

tyler

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm only concerned that Allen has Cletedius Hunt's old number.

[gureski]

In regards to Allen, I've talked to a few Giants fans and they were GREATLY disappointed at the loss of that player, think we picked up a blossoming talent. Will that translate onto the Lambeau grass? Who knows. But I think its too early to dismiss him.

tyler

I agree. He's at least servicable and someone you can rotate in as a solid #3 or #4 guy. That's at the least.


Like I pointed out before....who exactly do the Packers have on the current roster that is running laps around Allen so much so that it's 50-50 that he'll even make the team?