"No Child" leaves children behind

[MJZiggy]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021503008.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Many knew that No Child Left Behind wouldn't work. Now they think they know why. It's an interesting concept. Thought our teachers and parents might find it worth reading.

[LL2]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. The name of the bill has a warm and fuzzy feeling to it, but the gov't doesn't know how to solve things. It's parents responsibilities to make sure their kids know how to read, write and have math skills. My son is only 2 and we have been working with him on basics like numbers, alphabet, colors, shapes, etc. I want my kids to go to good schools, but to think the schools will be an end all solution to my kids education needs is naive.

Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

[MJZiggy]

No child left behind was Bush's invention. He campaigned on education reform and then gave us this turd which infuriated educators and parents alike.

[Scott Campbell]

I like the concept of vouchers.

[SkinBasket]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021503008.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Many knew that No Child Left Behind wouldn't work. Now they think they know why. It's an interesting concept. Thought our teachers and parents might find it worth reading.

It's not really that interesting since it's an opinion piece that doesn't back up any of the numerous assumptions he makes for the purpose of his opinion.

Yeah, there's problems with the program, just like there's problems with any huge government run program. Pulling out one set of numbers as an example of how the whole program is a failure is disingenuous.

[MJZiggy]

I was thinking about this the other day and it occurred to me that docking the schools needed cash for lack of performance was doing it backwards. Instead, I think they should be rewarding the teachers (notice I said the teachers and not the school) for improvements in the rates of college admissions for academically struggling areas. Maybe give the teachers the flexibility to decide how to best inspire their classes within the outline of the curricula. They know improvement means an extra 5K in their pocket at the end of the year, maybe they will be inspired all the way down to the elementary level to teach and expect excellence from their students like they do in the richer schools.

[red]

yep, this was a bush righty idea that didn't work like every other one of his ideas

there is no money for schools, we have to continue our un-winable war against the terrorists

[SkinBasket]

there is no money for schools, we have to continue our un-winable war against the terrorists

Yeah, there was only $24 billion and change spent on NCLB in 2007, a 40% increase since 2001 and $54 billion on education discretionary spending, up 30% from 2001.

No money for schools at all.

[packinpatland]

In my mind there are two problems. One, there's a probem. Two, there's a problem with how to fix the problem.

[SkinBasket]

In my mind there are two problems. One, there's a probem. Two, there's a problem with how to fix the problem.

And three, there may not be a way to fix number one given the nature of public education. Sure, you can try to make it better, but you can't fix every kid, especially when an increasing number of families think that fixing kids is the school's job, not the parents'.

[Freak Out]

there is no money for schools, we have to continue our un-winable war against the terrorists

Yeah, there was only $24 billion and change spent on NCLB in 2007, a 40% increase since 2001 and $54 billion on education discretionary spending, up 30% from 2001.

No money for schools at all.

Chump change. I'm not joking either. Our entire public system needs reform and money is going to be a problem because what is needed cannot just come from a local level. My other experience with a public school system was in Germany and children have much less of a chance to be "left behind" there than here. There are options and paths there that are open for the student that just do not exist here....because of money. But the American people need to make the choice what they want to fund. I think we all know what the answer will be.

[RashanGary]

All kids aren't created equal either. The idea that they're all going to be on the same level is rediculous.



Taking it a step further, I think it's safe to say most doctors, lawyers, top engineers, architects and many successfull buisness people are smarter than the average American (because they made it through law school or med school or whatever else and it weeds out people who can't do it). They end up having more money (on average) and living in certain little areas (more than others). Then they pass their genetic makeup onto their kids (along with some of the lifestyle that allowed them to succeed when many fail). Ultimately, you have a whole school that reflects the neighborhoods tendancys.

And I'm not saying there aren't many absolutley BRILLIANT people who don't have a high level of education (or the financial stability that often comes with it), but I'll bet you get a disproportionate number of idiots in some schools and intelligent kids in others.

My point; some of this might be able to be explained by the differences in people combined with the birds of a feather theory.

[MJZiggy]

That's actually part of the point. If you can't fix every kid, why hold all of 'em back in the attempt to fix 'em all? A little differentiated learning without a stupid massive government test that tosses the whole school into a tizzy every couple weeks might go a long way.

[RashanGary]

That's actually part of the point. If you can't fix every kid, why hold all of 'em back in the attempt to fix 'em all? A little differentiated learning without a stupid massive government test that tosses the whole school into a tizzy every couple weeks might go a long way.

Good point.

[packinpatland]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

[MJZiggy]

I wish they would do that here. We have a DHOH program here and they test those kids and the rest of them have to make up the difference.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. .... Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

:lol: :lol: :lol: You didn't know that NCLB was a Republican idea. And then your comment on health care suggests you have not a clue what the Democrats are proposing with healthcare.

There are going to be changes in health care. If you think the current system is OK, you have your head in the sand. Whatever the Democrats get through is likely to be a modest experiment, more change will be needed.

[RashanGary]

I don't know, HH. Barack is starting to look like an unstoppable force and they say the democratic majority is going to expand in the house and senate.

Something might acctually get done in the next presidential term. Will it be for the better? I don't know, but there is a good chance that there is a major shake up in health care.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I like the concept of vouchers.

There is nothing wrong with vouchers in principle, I don't mind blending this option in. I question whether the people who support vouchers have a commitment to improving public education. If we give up on public schools, it will lead to even more drastic inequality in opportunity.

[MJZiggy]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. .... Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

:lol: :lol: :lol: You didn't know that NCLB was a Republican idea. And then your comment on health care suggests you have not a clue what the Democrats are proposing with healthcare.

There are going to be changes in health care. If you think the current system is OK, you have your head in the sand. Whatever the Democrats get through is likely to be a modest experiment, more change will be needed.

I wish Bush would have said that about NCLB...

[CyclonePackFan]

The thing that really scares me isn't that children are being left behind, it's that enough children AREN'T being left behind. Some of the things I'm starting to see in my old high school and here in college are scaring the shit out of me. It seems to me that secondary education has two BIG problems.

1.) Schools are passing through students who should be failing.
2.) Students that should be just "passing" are getting inflated grades.

I fear that we've become so obsessed with making our youth feel good about themselves we're decreasing the quality of the education. I always hear from candidates that they want "more scientists and engineers", students proficient in math and science. They're going to get it, but what good are a ton of new engineers if THEY AREN'T QUALIFIED TO BE ENGINEERS? I had an opportunity to TA a course last semester, and it struck me that students just want to be "told" the answer to a question. They don't want to put the effort into finding the solution themselves, and they got the hell blown out of them on the exams when they had to take basic principles and apply them to a problem they hadn't seen before. Personally, I blame the internet. When I was in grade school, if I wanted to do a report, I had to go hunt through my shelf of Encyclopedias to get good information, and actually research. Now you can just go to Wikipedia.

When I went home to Wisconsin for Christmas, I opened up my local newspaper. First thought... "Jesus Christ... the entire middle school is on the B-honor roll or better!" What's worse, they've opened a "Renaissance" school for high schoolers. Students who can't hack it (not just those who have learning issues) in the standard high school are relegated to the Renaissance school, where they get to go though fluff classes and literally, get an "A" for the week if they show up every day. As a result, the graduation rate for the high school skyrockets, and the Renaissance students are still allowed to graduate with a standard diploma.

What I'm wondering is...why don't we start giving incentives to fail students? The more students who fail (within limit - it doesn't do any good to just let teachers fail everyone and get incentives), the more money the school gets. Make the "average" a "C" again, and schools that do have lots of students who need help get more money.

[/rant]

Jesus, that was long. Sorry, this subject just really pisses me off.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't know, HH. Barack is starting to look like an unstoppable force and they say the democratic majority is going to expand in the house and senate.

Something might acctually get done in the next presidential term. Will it be for the better? I don't know, but there is a good chance that there is a major shake up in health care.

Ya, things will get done. The Democrats are going to expand access to private health insurance. Will this work? We'll see. This is an evolutionary change, not a revolution.

Is the problem the insurance companies? Their priority is to make profit, not serve the public. Can their behavior really be reformed? I'm a little skeptical, but its worth a try, since this is the politically realistic approach right now.

I think ultimately a more drastic change is needed. But we'll see.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When I went home to Wisconsin for Christmas, I opened up my local newspaper. First thought... "Jesus Christ... the entire middle school is on the B-honor roll or better!"

Sounds like you live in Lake Wobogan.


What's worse, they've opened a "Renaissance" school for high schoolers. Students who can't hack it (not just those who have learning issues) in the standard high school are relegated to the Renaissance school, where they get to go though fluff classes and literally, get an "A" for the week if they show up every day.

I know an alternative school that works VERY well, the only problem is the waiting list to get in. I knew two problem kids who went through it, and both ended up getting PHDs. There is a need for a school that gives lost kids some extra attention.

I agree that the inflated grades are terrible though, if that is indeed the case. And on a related note, its RIDICULOUS that special ed kids get the same diploma as other students.

[MJZiggy]

I thought they used to give out a "life skills" diploma for special ed kids. I guess it depends on how special your ed needs to be. I think M3 should run the schools. Teach and demand. It's like they try the teach part and forget the demand...

[CyclonePackFan]

I know an alternative school that works VERY well, the only problem is the waiting list to get in. I knew two problem kids who went through it, and both ended up getting PHDs. There is a need for a school that gives lost kids some extra attention.

I don't have a problem with alternative schools for students who need special attention, in fact, I think it's awesome. I will never fault a kid who gives it everything he/she has. Just because a child has a problem learning doesn't mean he/she's not brilliant.

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

[packinpatland]

I have three daughters.......two graduated in the top 3% of their class. One of those is now attending Yale. My third daughter is one of those 'special needs' kids. I've had to fight equally hard for both forms of 'gifted'.

In retrospect.......I should have fought harder for my special daughter.........the other two have the capabilities to make their own way. Unless you've been in the position to see both ends of the spectrum.....the saying 'walk in my shoes' comes to mind.

Sorta rambled there..........it's a hard..........

[Harlan Huckleby]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

[MJZiggy]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids have gained, and therefore without the capability to function after graduation be it in college or in a job.

And Harlan, you're right. They do work well for those kids who put in the effort and still struggle for the understanding of the concepts they're supposed to be learning. It would be nice if all parents took as much responsibility for their kids' education as some do. Too bad they don't.

[CyclonePackFan]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

Different perspectives, I guess. I'm sure the school helps a lot of students. I'm basing my judgment off my experience in high school. From my perspective, the purpose of the school wasn't to help those who really needed it, it was a place to throw out the bottom part of the class. My "class size" was officially around 190 people. However, around 250 were at the graduation ceremony, which is what we started with as freshmen. To me, throwing 25% of the class to Renaissance reeks of an attempt to skew statistics.

[CyclonePackFan]

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids have gained, and therefore without the capability to function after graduation be it in college or in a job.

And Harlan, you're right. They do work well for those kids who put in the effort and still struggle for the understanding of the concepts they're supposed to be learning. It would be nice if all parents took as much responsibility for their kids' education as some do. Too bad they don't.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly, very eloquently put.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids

There is no disagreement on this point.

Cyclone resents the alternative schools for other reasons as well.
He complained that troubled teens are sent to alternative schools:


However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

I say that a decent percentage of kids who are disruptive or not doing their homework can be turned around. They need some sort of positive experience at school, some interest to work on, and alternative schools are good at doing this.

[HarveyWallbangers]

No child left behind was Bush's invention. He campaigned on education reform and then gave us this turd which infuriated educators and parents alike.

Mostly infuriated educators--who tend to be overwhelmingly lefties. Anything he did would have been derided. If he had said that money doesn't fix our education woes and said local governments would have to fix the problem (which is the truth), he would have been derided even more. Yet, we have schools that have a college-like curriculum (my wife's aunt's kid has the choice of pilates and yoga for phy. ed. at Apple Valley, MN; he still gets average grades) and LCDs in the hallways.

[MJZiggy]

I'm not worried about which hand is feeding the pot provided the end result is acceptable which in this instance it isn't. Yet I've said this before about other things, just because one solution doesn't work doesn't mean you throw in the towel. You try another solution and another until you come up with the one that produces the result you want.

[CyclonePackFan]

Cyclone resents the alternative schools for other reasons as well.
He complained that troubled teens are sent to alternative schools:


However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

I say that a decent percentage of kids who are disruptive or not doing their homework can be turned around. They need some sort of positive experience at school, some interest to work on, and alternative schools are good at doing this.

Again, I think it's just a difference in perspective. My problem isn't with the existence of the program, it's the way it's used. I don't think throwing every student who is disruptive to the same place is the answer. Give them tutoring, a mentor, one-on-one time, after-school activities, something! If two students get into a fight, you throw them to the same school, and they can just get into a fight again, you might as well just send them to juvi. Don't just sweep the problem under the rug to make the room look better. What effect does it have on the other students? Are we really doing a service to the student who wants to do better but can't by lumping him or her with someone who just doesn't care?

[CyclonePackFan]

Getting off the topic of alternative schools, This thread reminded me of an article I read a while back. I suppose one of my biggest problems with our education problem is the lessons we're teaching our kids that have nothing to do with the subject (i.e. - about life)

I'm sure most everyone has read Charles Sykes "Lessons they don't teach you in school" (a popular chain mail commonly attributed to Bill Gates). If not:



Rule 1: Life is not fair; get used to it.

Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something before you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3: You will not make 40 thousand dollars a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with a car phone until you "earn" both.

Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. He doesn't have tenure.

Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger-flipping; they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you screw up, it's not your parents' fault so don't whine about your mistakes. Learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way paying your bills, cleaning your room, and listening to you tell them how idealistic you are. So before you save the rain forest from the blood-sucking parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers but life has not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades, they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This, of course, bears not the slightest resemblance to anything in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off, and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10: Television is not real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.


With that in mind, here's the article:

http://www.kcci.com/news/15052147/detail.html


New School Rule: Skip Homework Still Get Grade

POSTED: 8:47 am CST January 15, 2008
UPDATED: 3:50 pm CST January 15, 2008

COUNCIL BLUFFS, Iowa -- Students who don't hand in homework won't receive a zero anymore under new rules for a new semester that started on Monday at Council Bluffs Community Schools.

Students and teachers are encouraged to use the new grading techniques. School officials said that under the old regime, a student who received a zero had a tough time recovering a grade in the course. Administrators said that by making the failing gap smaller, students still have a chance to bounce back and pass at the end of the semester, even after a mistake.

Superintendent Dr. Marth Bruckner said she has seen many students start a new year rebelling.

"We don't want to send the message to kids, as we have done in some classes, that after you have failed in this class for four weeks, you have no chance of passing at the semester," Bruckner said.

In Council Bluffs, each grade range has constituted 10 points, so an A is a grade from 90 to 100, a B is from 80 to 90 etc. An F has ranged from zero to 60.

Last week, Bruckner said she visited with high school staff and recommended using similar intervals, so that on the 100-point scale, an F would range from 50 to 60 instead of zero to 60.

"Some teachers are really wrestling with, 'I don't want to give them 50 out of 100 points,' and to those teachers I say, 'Fine, you don't have to. Go to a different grading scale, like 5-4-3-2-1-0,'" Bruckner said. "We're not saying give them half credit. We're saying, give them the F. Just don't kill them with the F."

Parents are getting used to the new recommendations.

"I have an 8- and a 10-year-old," said parent Jodi Brown. "And as they excel through school, I would rather have them be held accountable for their actions. If they don't turn in an assignment, I would think they deserve a zero for not completing it."

"I think it's great to give them a second chance to make up for it," said Julie Michalski. "I don't want to see anyone fail, but they need to be held accountable for their work."

Right now, the new grading idea is only recommended for the high schools -- Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson. Use is left to teachers, but Bruckner said the hope is that departments will work together so that everyone agrees on the same scale.

Gretna uses something Superintendent Dr. Kevin Riley called the "do your work" policy. Students who don't hand in something, or don't pass with a grade of 70 percent or greater, must come in before and after school to complete and pass that assignment. Riley said the policy has been used for 25 years, and in that time, the failure rate has decreased from 10 percent to just a handful of failing grades at the high school. He said the policy has also cut down on behavior issues.


What does everybody think? What concerns me, as I said, is the lesson this kind of change teaches kids. If I don't pay my credit card bill this month, the company isn't going to say to me, "It's OK, we'll pay half of it", my credit rating is going to go down the toilet. If I don't show up for work, should I get half-pay, or will I be fired?

[MJZiggy]

That may be the dumbest thing I've seen all week. I'm all for giving kids a chance to bring their grades up--BY MAKING UP THE WORK!!! What in blazes are these people thinking?

[LL2]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. .... Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

:lol: :lol: :lol: You didn't know that NCLB was a Republican idea. And then your comment on health care suggests you have not a clue what the Democrats are proposing with healthcare.

There are going to be changes in health care. If you think the current system is OK, you have your head in the sand. Whatever the Democrats get through is likely to be a modest experiment, more change will be needed.

Ooops! You got me. Wasn't it Clinton who started the whole thing with the "It takes a village to raise a child" thing?

[Harlan Huckleby]

My problem isn't with the existence of the program, it's the way it's used. I don't think throwing every student who is disruptive to the same place is the answer. Give them tutoring, a mentor, one-on-one time, after-school activities, something! If two students get into a fight, you throw them to the same school, and they can just get into a fight again, you might as well just send them to juvi.

Not every kid is going to work-out in an alternative school.


Don't just sweep the problem under the rug to make the room look better.

Alternative schools are not a place to dump/hide problem kids. They give them more personalized attention and another chance.


Are we really doing a service to the student who wants to do better but can't by lumping him or her with someone who just doesn't care?

Alternative schools are more disciplined than regular schools, even though the curriculum might be more flexible. They don't allow kids to be disruptive. Plenty of REALLY smart kids there too. Lots of really smart kids have social problems, or don't learn well in a traditional classroom.

[hoosier]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. The name of the bill has a warm and fuzzy feeling to it, but the gov't doesn't know how to solve things. It's parents responsibilities to make sure their kids know how to read, write and have math skills. My son is only 2 and we have been working with him on basics like numbers, alphabet, colors, shapes, etc. I want my kids to go to good schools, but to think the schools will be an end all solution to my kids education needs is naive.

Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

Historical revisionism at its best.

[hoosier]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Did they put her in an inclusionary environment, in special ed classes, or some other model?

[packinpatland]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Did they put her in an inclusionary environment, in special ed classes, or some other model?

She was in inclusive classes that were appropriate, some special ed, and alot of one on one tutoring, and also a one on one aide, until high school....she was able to walk on her own by then.

[hoosier]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Did they put her in an inclusionary environment, in special ed classes, or some other model?

She was in inclusive classes that were appropriate, some special ed, and alot of one on one tutoring, and also a one on one aide, until high school....she was able to walk on her own by then.

We've had a hell of a time getting our local school district in IN to comply with federal legislation on inclusion. Their default mode remains the same as the 1970's--keeping all the special needs kids together, which of course rules out their being in the same classrooms as typically developing kids. There's a lot of variation on educational philosophy from state to state, and I would have assumed CT would be more of a leader on inclusion rather than a dinosaur like Indiana.

[LL2]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Is this the daughter that will be in the next Indiana Jones movie? If so, she definitely has special gifts.

[pacfan]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Is the casino money used for education, in lieu of the state funding for education, or for something else?

[Scott Campbell]

I like the concept of vouchers.

There is nothing wrong with vouchers in principle, I don't mind blending this option in. I question whether the people who support vouchers have a commitment to improving public education. If we give up on public schools, it will lead to even more drastic inequality in opportunity.


I don't believe in giving up on public schools, and only back vouchers for 50% of the cost savings from not sending your kid through public school. So the public school system gets to keep the other 50% from that kid even though they don't have to educate him/her.

[packinpatland]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Is this the daughter that will be in the next Indiana Jones movie? If so, she definitely has special gifts.

No, my middle daughter was cast as the extra..........she was just in the right place as the right time...........New Haven :wink:

[packinpatland]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Is the casino money used for education, in lieu of the state funding for education, or for something else?

Alot of years ago, when the casinos where first established, this deal was worked out...........now they 'throw' the money into the general pot. No one is quite sure how much exactly gets doled out to the school systems.

[Partial]

I was thinking about this the other day and it occurred to me that docking the schools needed cash for lack of performance was doing it backwards. Instead, I think they should be rewarding the teachers (notice I said the teachers and not the school) for improvements in the rates of college admissions for academically struggling areas. Maybe give the teachers the flexibility to decide how to best inspire their classes within the outline of the curricula. They know improvement means an extra 5K in their pocket at the end of the year, maybe they will be inspired all the way down to the elementary level to teach and expect excellence from their students like they do in the richer schools.

Zig, with the teachers being the graders who is to say they won't just assign A's to get their bonus?!?!

[packinpatland]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Did they put her in an inclusionary environment, in special ed classes, or some other model?

She was in inclusive classes that were appropriate, some special ed, and alot of one on one tutoring, and also a one on one aide, until high school....she was able to walk on her own by then.

We've had a hell of a time getting our local school district in IN to comply with federal legislation on inclusion. Their default mode remains the same as the 1970's--keeping all the special needs kids together, which of course rules out their being in the same classrooms as typically developing kids. There's a lot of variation on educational philosophy from state to state, and I would have assumed CT would be more of a leader on inclusion rather than a dinosaur like Indiana.

Unfortunetly, CT did not lead when it came to inclusion. When my daughter started school, they wanted to bus her to the other side of town, (we have 5 grade schools) to the school where all children with any disability were placed. We said no, we live less than 1/2 mile from our neighborhood school, the school where her sisters attend, where the rest of the neighborhood children attend. We firmly informed the school district where she would be enrolled, citing The ADA. There wasn't really any question. Soon after we 'paved the way' (this was 18 years ago), all children with disablities in our town attended the school closest to their home. One small victory.
http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/section504.ada.peer.htm

[Partial]

I don't know, HH. Barack is starting to look like an unstoppable force and they say the democratic majority is going to expand in the house and senate.

Something might acctually get done in the next presidential term. Will it be for the better? I don't know, but there is a good chance that there is a major shake up in health care.

You do realize that bill will be so tainted and changed by the time it gets through congress it won't look like anything he is pitching now.

[Partial]

The thing that really scares me isn't that children are being left behind, it's that enough children AREN'T being left behind. Some of the things I'm starting to see in my old high school and here in college are scaring the shit out of me. It seems to me that secondary education has two BIG problems.

1.) Schools are passing through students who should be failing.
2.) Students that should be just "passing" are getting inflated grades.

I fear that we've become so obsessed with making our youth feel good about themselves we're decreasing the quality of the education. I always hear from candidates that they want "more scientists and engineers", students proficient in math and science. They're going to get it, but what good are a ton of new engineers if THEY AREN'T QUALIFIED TO BE ENGINEERS? I had an opportunity to TA a course last semester, and it struck me that students just want to be "told" the answer to a question. They don't want to put the effort into finding the solution themselves, and they got the hell blown out of them on the exams when they had to take basic principles and apply them to a problem they hadn't seen before. Personally, I blame the internet. When I was in grade school, if I wanted to do a report, I had to go hunt through my shelf of Encyclopedias to get good information, and actually research. Now you can just go to Wikipedia.

When I went home to Wisconsin for Christmas, I opened up my local newspaper. First thought... "Jesus Christ... the entire middle school is on the B-honor roll or better!" What's worse, they've opened a "Renaissance" school for high schoolers. Students who can't hack it (not just those who have learning issues) in the standard high school are relegated to the Renaissance school, where they get to go though fluff classes and literally, get an "A" for the week if they show up every day. As a result, the graduation rate for the high school skyrockets, and the Renaissance students are still allowed to graduate with a standard diploma.

What I'm wondering is...why don't we start giving incentives to fail students? The more students who fail (within limit - it doesn't do any good to just let teachers fail everyone and get incentives), the more money the school gets. Make the "average" a "C" again, and schools that do have lots of students who need help get more money.

[/rant]

Jesus, that was long. Sorry, this subject just really pisses me off.

I tend to agree with this. The reason it is like this with passing everyone though is because the parents don't expect their kids to have to do homework, and they bitch and moan and even file lawsuits (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=294687) to make their kid #1. I was talking to a professor who used to teach in a middle school recently. He said his number one reason to get out of their was to get away from the parents he spent as least 3-4 hours a week dealing with.

Parents want teachers to not only teach them, but to police there kids as well. Not only that, but they also want everything to be taught and learned in the class room. Math for example is one of those things that needs to simply be done repetitively to become good at it. As a result, they move at a snail of a pace, and give dumb downed tests. Personally, I think math in particular teaches students how to learn and should be one of the most emphasized topics in education. I think every high schooler should be required to have passed Calc 1 to get a diploma as it is useful and really not very difficult at all. Furthermore, I also think the majority of students should be taking Calc 2 by their senior year of HS.

Looking back at my math career, I really don't think I learned that much new content from 7th grade to 11th grade. They spend literally 6-7 years teaching basic algebra that could be condensed into 2 years if students were required to do nightly homework.

[Partial]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids have gained, and therefore without the capability to function after graduation be it in college or in a job.

And Harlan, you're right. They do work well for those kids who put in the effort and still struggle for the understanding of the concepts they're supposed to be learning. It would be nice if all parents took as much responsibility for their kids' education as some do. Too bad they don't.

Precisely right. People are way to quick to put the kids into these slower pace schools that don't need to be. Just like in the 90s when doping your kids up on ridalin was the answer when kids couldn't concentrate. It's time to stop blaming everything else and start making the kids work harder. I for one did not understand this until college as I was a perennial under-achiever in HS.

[Partial]

That may be the dumbest thing I've seen all week. I'm all for giving kids a chance to bring their grades up--BY MAKING UP THE WORK!!! What in blazes are these people thinking?

on the devil's advocate side of life, graded homework is stupid, though. Homework is when you put in the work to learn the material. You shouldn't be graded on that as it takes everyone different methods and lengths of time. More often than not in elementary and middle school, you would get an A merely for completing the assignment even if its with right or wrong answers. If they got rid of mandatory homework, less students would attempt it. But, on the other hand, the students who don't understand the concepts would fail the tests and thus have to retake the class.

[CyclonePackFan]

Parents want teachers to not only teach them, but to police there kids as well. Not only that, but they also want everything to be taught and learned in the class room.

I'll agree wholeheartedly with this. There may be issues with the education system, but not all blame can be set on the schools.



Math for example is one of those things that needs to simply be done repetitively to become good at it. As a result, they move at a snail of a pace, and give dumb downed tests. Personally, I think math in particular teaches students how to learn and should be one of the most emphasized topics in education. I think every high schooler should be required to have passed Calc 1 to get a diploma as it is useful and really not very difficult at all. Furthermore, I also think the majority of students should be taking Calc 2 by their senior year of HS.

Not so much on board with making a requirement for all students to go as high as Calculus. Taking lots of math should be encouraged, but not required. High school should provide basic knowledge to all, but I think specialization comes with college. People are different, some people are logical and math comes easy, others are more creative and have difficulty in math, but may be gifted in other areas. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to graduate. Give me a calc test and I doubt I'd have problems with it, but put me in front of an bunch of parts and tell me to build a car engine and I'd be totally lost.

[Partial]

Well right, because you don't work on cars. Math is really important imo and teaches you how to learn which is the most important skill that can be learned.

Whitnall required you to take a pre-calc course, but they should have accelerated everything through middle school and had you doing pre-calc as a sophomore. Calc 1 is a piece of cake and should be required for graduation. Calc 2 should be the senior math class that is optional, and Differential Equations and multi-variable calculus should be the AP equivalent.

I remember from my days when the foreign exchange students would come in and do circles around everyone else in math. They teach it way slower in America than at least Brazil, Armenia, and I am sure there are a few others.

[hoosier]

Unfortunetly, CT did not lead when it came to inclusion. When my daughter started school, they wanted to bus her to the other side of town, (we have 5 grade schools) to the school where all children with any disability were placed. We said no, we live less than 1/2 mile from our neighborhood school, the school where her sisters attend, where the rest of the neighborhood children attend. We firmly informed the school district where she would be enrolled, citing The ADA. There wasn't really any question. Soon after we 'paved the way' (this was 18 years ago), all children with disablities in our town attended the school closest to their home. One small victory.
http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/section504.ada.peer.htm

Nicely done. And good to know that sticking to your guns and being a pain in the system's ass on the "least restrictive environment" principle can make things easier for other families down the road. The idea that others will have to go through the same mountains of BS all over again would make being a pain in the ass very depressing.

[swede]

Been away for a while and just saw this thread. As i comment on a few things keep in mind that I am a conservative public school teacher--a rather rare bird.

The PL 94-142 stuff regarding students with disabilities was an interesting side-topic. This is an example of how the federal government actually does have a legitimate voice in the education of children at the state and local levels.

PL 94-142 protects and ensures the right of handicapped children to have access to a public education. Constitutionally, the federal government has an interest in protecting the rights of children with disabilities since, as citizens, they should not be excluded from public education given to other children simply because of the elevated expenses brought about by the elevated needs.

Every state and every local district will do things differently as they attempt to follow the federal rules, and they will all swear that they are doing things the "right way."

As a few of you have pointed out, parents need to push districts when they feel that their children are not having their needs met.

On the other hand, there are districts who have caved to the demands of certain parents in order to avoid litigation. In bad situations this ends up compromising the education of many students in order to placate the demands of unreasonable parents.

I am quite sure that situations mentioned by the posters here represent the former case rather than the latter. The courts, as always from the conservative point of view, are important players in setting good precedents that represent the laws as written without imposing new laws that haven't been legislated.

As far as NCLB, if I had a chance to meet President Bush I would first shake his hand and thank him for fighting the war against terror--even if he's done it clumsily at times. Then I would tell him that I should--federal law and a good upbringing prevent me from actually doing so --kick him in the ass three times. Once for doing a bad job of sealing our southern borders and twice for bringing about the NCLB act. No progressive President in his biggest wet dream could have produced such an expensive, stupid, implausible, ineffective, resource-draining boondoggle.

The federal government has no damn business in education. The constitution granted that privilege to the states. The only exception to this is when education commonly available to most citizens is taken away from the few because of skin color or handicap or some other arbitrary reason. Then the federal government must step in to say that what is available to most should be available to all--simply that.

Every school district in every state now has a new layer of expensive do-nothing bureaucrats in the central offices stealing money and time from the educational process and they will never, ever go away. Democrats won't get rid of this law. Are you kidding? They will re-work it to fit their own political aims.

At the federal level, Republican and Democratic politicians alike are cuckoo birds laying their stupid, illegitimate eggs in the nests of local school districts where we are forced to deal with the unhelpful and meaningless and expensive consequences.

[MJZiggy]

As far as NCLB, if I had a chance to meet President Bush I would first shake his hand and thank him for fighting the war against terror--even if he's done it clumsily at times. Then I would tell him that I should--federal law and a good upbringing prevent me from actually doing so --kick him in the ass three times. Once for doing a bad job of sealing our southern borders and twice for bringing about the NCLB act. No progressive President in his biggest wet dream could have produced such an expensive, stupid, implausible, ineffective, resource-draining boondoggle.

At the federal level, Republican and Democratic politicians alike are cuckoo birds laying their stupid, illegitimate eggs in the nests of local school districts where we are forced to deal with the unhelpful and meaningless and expensive consequences.

You forgot counterproductive and disruptive (not to be redundant or anything...).

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I have three daughters.......two graduated in the top 3% of their class. One of those is now attending Yale. My third daughter is one of those 'special needs' kids. I've had to fight equally hard for both forms of 'gifted'.

In retrospect.......I should have fought harder for my special daughter.........the other two have the capabilities to make their own way. Unless you've been in the position to see both ends of the spectrum.....the saying 'walk in my shoes' comes to mind.

Sorta rambled there..........it's a hard..........

Are you calling your daughter at yale gifted. IF she was gifted she woulda been at harvard. :wink:

[packinpatland]

I have three daughters.......two graduated in the top 3% of their class. One of those is now attending Yale. My third daughter is one of those 'special needs' kids. I've had to fight equally hard for both forms of 'gifted'.

In retrospect.......I should have fought harder for my special daughter.........the other two have the capabilities to make their own way. Unless you've been in the position to see both ends of the spectrum.....the saying 'walk in my shoes' comes to mind.

Sorta rambled there..........it's a hard..........

Are you calling your daughter at yale gifted. IF she was gifted she woulda been at harvard. :wink:


My mistake.......where in the hell did we go wrong? :roll: :lol:

[Freak Out]

Throw poverty and a few other factors into the mix. I heard some stats recently that placed 16-17 percent of the children in America living below the poverty line.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/62c45126-dc1f-11dc-bc82-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I have three daughters.......two graduated in the top 3% of their class. One of those is now attending Yale. My third daughter is one of those 'special needs' kids. I've had to fight equally hard for both forms of 'gifted'.

In retrospect.......I should have fought harder for my special daughter.........the other two have the capabilities to make their own way. Unless you've been in the position to see both ends of the spectrum.....the saying 'walk in my shoes' comes to mind.

Sorta rambled there..........it's a hard..........

Are you calling your daughter at yale gifted. IF she was gifted she woulda been at harvard. :wink:


My mistake.......where in the hell did we go wrong? :roll: :lol:

It really isn't your fault. Everyone that attends an ivy calls their kids gifted. Even those losers at a state school like Cornell.

[packinpatland]

I have three daughters.......two graduated in the top 3% of their class. One of those is now attending Yale. My third daughter is one of those 'special needs' kids. I've had to fight equally hard for both forms of 'gifted'.

In retrospect.......I should have fought harder for my special daughter.........the other two have the capabilities to make their own way. Unless you've been in the position to see both ends of the spectrum.....the saying 'walk in my shoes' comes to mind.

Sorta rambled there..........it's a hard..........

Are you calling your daughter at yale gifted. IF she was gifted she woulda been at harvard. :wink:


My mistake.......where in the hell did we go wrong? :roll: :lol:

It really isn't your fault. Everyone that attends an ivy calls their kids gifted. Even those losers at a state school like Cornell.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Did you mean to leave a comment?

[packinpatland]

I didn't...........just pushed the wrong button.
The kids got their smarts from their father :wink:

[hoosier]

It really isn't your fault. Everyone that attends an ivy calls their kids gifted. Even those losers at a state school like Cornell.

Only a small part of Cornell is public land grant. And it's by far the less obnoxious part. But your comment is right on in spirit--they don't call Cornell the red-headed stepchild of the Ivies for nothing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My favorite fake Ivy League School is Drake University in Iowa. "Drake" sounds very New England.

Back in the late 70's, Jim & Leon, two nutty guys who ran the University of Wisconsin Student Council, formally renamed the UW to "The University of New Jersey" so that Wisconsin students could afford to attend a prestigous eastern school.

[packinpatland]

Is Drake a psuedo Ivy?

[swede]

As far as NCLB, if I had a chance to meet President Bush I would first shake his hand and thank him for fighting the war against terror--even if he's done it clumsily at times. Then I would tell him that I should--federal law and a good upbringing prevent me from actually doing so --kick him in the ass three times. Once for doing a bad job of sealing our southern borders and twice for bringing about the NCLB act. No progressive President in his biggest wet dream could have produced such an expensive, stupid, implausible, ineffective, resource-draining boondoggle.

At the federal level, Republican and Democratic politicians alike are cuckoo birds laying their stupid, illegitimate eggs in the nests of local school districts where we are forced to deal with the unhelpful and meaningless and expensive consequences.


You forgot counterproductive and disruptive (not to be redundant or anything...).

Tnank you.

And counterproductive and disruptive. :!:

[Freak Out]

The Dumbing Of America
Call Me a Snob, but Really, We're a Nation of Dunces

By Susan Jacoby
Sunday, February 17, 2008; B01

"The mind of this country, taught to aim at low objects, eats upon itself." Ralph Waldo Emerson offered that observation in 1837, but his words echo with painful prescience in today's very different United States. Americans are in serious intellectual trouble -- in danger of losing our hard-won cultural capital to a virulent mixture of anti-intellectualism, anti-rationalism and low expectations.

This is the last subject that any candidate would dare raise on the long and winding road to the White House. It is almost impossible to talk about the manner in which public ignorance contributes to grave national problems without being labeled an "elitist," one of the most powerful pejoratives that can be applied to anyone aspiring to high office. Instead, our politicians repeatedly assure Americans that they are just "folks," a patronizing term that you will search for in vain in important presidential speeches before 1980. (Just imagine: "We here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain . . . and that government of the folks, by the folks, for the folks, shall not perish from the earth.") Such exaltations of ordinariness are among the distinguishing traits of anti-intellectualism in any era.

The classic work on this subject by Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter, "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life," was published in early 1963, between the anti-communist crusades of the McCarthy era and the social convulsions of the late 1960s. Hofstadter saw American anti-intellectualism as a basically cyclical phenomenon that often manifested itself as the dark side of the country's democratic impulses in religion and education. But today's brand of anti-intellectualism is less a cycle than a flood. If Hofstadter (who died of leukemia in 1970 at age 54) had lived long enough to write a modern-day sequel, he would have found that our era of 24/7 infotainment has outstripped his most apocalyptic predictions about the future of American culture.

Dumbness, to paraphrase the late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, has been steadily defined downward for several decades, by a combination of heretofore irresistible forces. These include the triumph of video culture over print culture (and by video, I mean every form of digital media, as well as older electronic ones); a disjunction between Americans' rising level of formal education and their shaky grasp of basic geography, science and history; and the fusion of anti-rationalism with anti-intellectualism.

First and foremost among the vectors of the new anti-intellectualism is video. The decline of book, newspaper and magazine reading is by now an old story. The drop-off is most pronounced among the young, but it continues to accelerate and afflict Americans of all ages and education levels.

Reading has declined not only among the poorly educated, according to a report last year by the National Endowment for the Arts. In 1982, 82 percent of college graduates read novels or poems for pleasure; two decades later, only 67 percent did. And more than 40 percent of Americans under 44 did not read a single book -- fiction or nonfiction -- over the course of a year. The proportion of 17-year-olds who read nothing (unless required to do so for school) more than doubled between 1984 and 2004. This time period, of course, encompasses the rise of personal computers, Web surfing and video games.

Does all this matter? Technophiles pooh-pooh jeremiads about the end of print culture as the navel-gazing of (what else?) elitists. In his book "Everything Bad Is Good for You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter," the science writer Steven Johnson assures us that we have nothing to worry about. Sure, parents may see their "vibrant and active children gazing silently, mouths agape, at the screen." But these zombie-like characteristics "are not signs of mental atrophy. They're signs of focus." Balderdash. The real question is what toddlers are screening out, not what they are focusing on, while they sit mesmerized by videos they have seen dozens of times.

Despite an aggressive marketing campaign aimed at encouraging babies as young as 6 months to watch videos, there is no evidence that focusing on a screen is anything but bad for infants and toddlers. In a study released last August, University of Washington researchers found that babies between 8 and 16 months recognized an average of six to eight fewer words for every hour spent watching videos.

I cannot prove that reading for hours in a treehouse (which is what I was doing when I was 13) creates more informed citizens than hammering away at a Microsoft Xbox or obsessing about Facebook profiles. But the inability to concentrate for long periods of time -- as distinct from brief reading hits for information on the Web -- seems to me intimately related to the inability of the public to remember even recent news events. It is not surprising, for example, that less has been heard from the presidential candidates about the Iraq war in the later stages of the primary campaign than in the earlier ones, simply because there have been fewer video reports of violence in Iraq. Candidates, like voters, emphasize the latest news, not necessarily the most important news.

No wonder negative political ads work. "With text, it is even easy to keep track of differing levels of authority behind different pieces of information," the cultural critic Caleb Crain noted recently in the New Yorker. "A comparison of two video reports, on the other hand, is cumbersome. Forced to choose between conflicting stories on television, the viewer falls back on hunches, or on what he believed before he started watching."

As video consumers become progressively more impatient with the process of acquiring information through written language, all politicians find themselves under great pressure to deliver their messages as quickly as possible -- and quickness today is much quicker than it used to be. Harvard University's Kiku Adatto found that between 1968 and 1988, the average sound bite on the news for a presidential candidate -- featuring the candidate's own voice -- dropped from 42.3 seconds to 9.8 seconds. By 2000, according to another Harvard study, the daily candidate bite was down to just 7.8 seconds.

The shrinking public attention span fostered by video is closely tied to the second important anti-intellectual force in American culture: the erosion of general knowledge.

People accustomed to hearing their president explain complicated policy choices by snapping "I'm the decider" may find it almost impossible to imagine the pains that Franklin D. Roosevelt took, in the grim months after Pearl Harbor, to explain why U.S. armed forces were suffering one defeat after another in the Pacific. In February 1942, Roosevelt urged Americans to spread out a map during his radio "fireside chat" so that they might better understand the geography of battle. In stores throughout the country, maps sold out; about 80 percent of American adults tuned in to hear the president. FDR had told his speechwriters that he was certain that if Americans understood the immensity of the distances over which supplies had to travel to the armed forces, "they can take any kind of bad news right on the chin."

This is a portrait not only of a different presidency and president but also of a different country and citizenry, one that lacked access to satellite-enhanced Google maps but was far more receptive to learning and complexity than today's public. According to a 2006 survey by National Geographic-Roper, nearly half of Americans between ages 18 and 24 do not think it necessary to know the location of other countries in which important news is being made. More than a third consider it "not at all important" to know a foreign language, and only 14 percent consider it "very important."

That leads us to the third and final factor behind the new American dumbness: not lack of knowledge per se but arrogance about that lack of knowledge. The problem is not just the things we do not know (consider the one in five American adults who, according to the National Science Foundation, thinks the sun revolves around the Earth); it's the alarming number of Americans who have smugly concluded that they do not need to know such things in the first place. Call this anti-rationalism -- a syndrome that is particularly dangerous to our public institutions and discourse. Not knowing a foreign language or the location of an important country is a manifestation of ignorance; denying that such knowledge matters is pure anti-rationalism. The toxic brew of anti-rationalism and ignorance hurts discussions of U.S. public policy on topics from health care to taxation.

There is no quick cure for this epidemic of arrogant anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism; rote efforts to raise standardized test scores by stuffing students with specific answers to specific questions on specific tests will not do the job. Moreover, the people who exemplify the problem are usually oblivious to it. ("Hardly anyone believes himself to be against thought and culture," Hofstadter noted.) It is past time for a serious national discussion about whether, as a nation, we truly value intellect and rationality. If this indeed turns out to be a "change election," the low level of discourse in a country with a mind taught to aim at low objects ought to be the first item on the change agenda.

[swede]

that had a lot of big words

[Freak Out]

that had a lot of big words

:lol:

I thought so as well.

I was just really surprised by some of the stats that were thrown out. 1 in 5 American adults believe the sun revolves around the earth? :doh:

[Harlan Huckleby]

I agree with a lot that is in Freak Out's article.

One of reason's that people are less knowledgable (than 40 years ago) is that there is so much more to know. Look at the discussions here on TV technology. We're in an era of specialization, and people are acustomed to throwing in the towel.

Passive entertainment dulls curiosity, that is a problem.