Is 4 starting caliber DT's too many?

[RashanGary]

I don't know how each guy is going to progress, but this is my view of something that could happen. Let's imagine we have 4 starting caliber DT's with somewhat equal ability overall but different skills.

Pickett is your run stopping specialist who doubles as a good overall player
Williams is your pass rushing specialist who doubles as a good overall player
Jolly is a good overall player (equal in run and pass)
Harrell develops into a good overall player. (equal in run and pass)



Here are the reasons I can think of that depth is good:

1. The Giants had one of the strongest Dlines in football, but they wore out late in the superbowl and almost lost the game if it weren't for a magical drive by Eli. If they had more depth, that game wouldn't have been so close IMO. The Giants were having their way with Brady until they ran out of gas. Do we want to run out of gas in the 4th quarter of a post season game?

2. In goalline situations, we can lineup with a pretty kick ass 5 man line with Jenkins, Williams, Pickett, Jolly and Kampman.

3. One guy is bound to get injured at some point in the season and it's more likely that two or three of them will go down at times throughout the year. When Harrell goes down do we want to be down to Jolly, PIckett, Cole and Muir? I think Cole is a below average player and Muir is a huge question mark. I don't want to rely on those two when we have to beat the Cowboys in the NFC Championship game.

4. If Jolly has an ankle injury in week 2, we'll be less likely to rush him along. By not rushing him along, he'll heal properly, we'll still have three good ones playing and over the course of the season the health situation should be easier for us to balance. This will allow us to be most fresh for the playoffs.

5. This goes along with #4, but after a 17 or 18 game stretch 320 lb guys are warn out and beat up. If our guys play 50% of the snaps rather than 70% of the snaps, it could go a long way toward playoff freshness and therefor success.



There is nothing wrong with having an extra deep Dline. I think this move is going to pay dividends in the 4th quarter of games and in the 4th quarter of the season.

[RashanGary]

I think the DT situation is really good if we resign Williams long term and keep reupping guys like Jolly and Harrell. Depth is good. Even if Harrell or Jolly turn into probowlers, it's still good to rest them in the season and in the game.

As a fan, I'm really hoping we start to develop more depth at DE. I don't like Kampman playing so many snaps. I think he'd be better late in the game if he dind't have to play damn near every snap. Also, neither he, Jenkins or KGB are going to be around forever.

[The Leaper]

4 DTs are a necessity in the NFL. Our problem IMO is that we don't have one dominant pass rusher among them. Williams is our best bet, and he's not a consistent threat. Pickett and Jolly certainly will never confuse anyone as a pass rusher...and it does not appear that Harrell will either.

[RashanGary]

Clemson has a DE named Merling that is 6'5" and 275. He's supposed to be a very good overall player. I haven't gotten to see him play, but from everything I read, he'd be just what the doctor ordered for this team.

[RashanGary]

This is what Scott Wright said about who could be the BPA at #30 based on the depth of the draft

[Comment From Scott Wright]
Honestly, that is tough to say at this point. There should be solid value left at offensive tackle and cornerback late in round one though and a good defensive end could fall too.




Wow, this would be ideal. I'd love any of these positions. A talented DE, CB or OT would be perfect for this team.

[Lurker64]

I think that fewer than 4 DTs is definitely too few. I see us having 6 DTs on the roster after camp this year, only 4-5 will be active on game day though.

[RashanGary]

I think that fewer than 4 DTs is definitely too few. I see us having 6 DTs on the roster after camp this year, only 4-5 will be active on game day though.

I meant four who are capable of being good starters (if it works out that way)

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I think that fewer than 4 DTs is definitely too few. I see us having 6 DTs on the roster after camp this year, only 4-5 will be active on game day though.

I meant four who are capable of being good starters (if it works out that way)

No way. You can never have to many good players no matter the position, but particularly at DT. Plus it's not like anyone of them is so good that you don't want him off the field.

[woodbuck27]

I think the DT situation is really good if we resign Williams long term and keep reupping guys like Jolly and Harrell. Depth is good. Even if Harrell or Jolly turn into probowlers, it's still good to rest them in the season and in the game.

As a fan, I'm really hoping we start to develop more depth at DE. I don't like Kampman playing so many snaps. I think he'd be better late in the game if he dind't have to play damn near every snap. Also, neither he, Jenkins or KGB are going to be around forever.

I hope that Justin Harrell gets even close this season and so the minumum we need as we rotate the DL is four DT's.

I sensed it was obvious that Aaron Kampman was very tired at season's end. That fact will be addressed I'm sure by Mike McCarthy this off season and something better put in place to keep our troops freser as the season progress's.

I believe every year we hope for a quality product at DE. Certainly with the age and overall game of KGB we realize that that time to look hard at RDE is now to 'build on' effectiveness of our DL.

PACKERS FOREVER!

[KYPack]

SNIP

Here are the reasons I can think of that depth is good:

1. The Giants had one of the strongest Dlines in football, but they wore out late in the superbowl and almost lost the game if it weren't for a magical drive by Eli. If they had more depth, that game wouldn't have been so close IMO. The Giants were having their way with Brady until they ran out of gas. Do we want to run out of gas in the 4th quarter of a post season game?



Not really. That rookie DT made a sack on Brady in the last minute to ice the game. Depth will prevent ya from running out of gas.

Really feel that the example of the Giants deep DLine contributed to TT's decision to tag Williams. We will now basically be a team with as deep a DLine as the Giants.

[b bulldog]

True but the Giants Dline is far, far better.

[twoseven]

Are DD, Jenning, Jones, Krob, and Martin too many WRs to have on one team?

Our DL wore down late in the year and injuries played no small part in it. Are we going to argue that we have to many? 4 is too many right up until that point when 1-2 are injured or just plain ineffective.

As far as CW goes, he is still not going to be worth the money we might give him in a longer deal even if he gives us a discount. I'd rather hope for Harrel and/or Jolly to send CW packing next year with their improved play than hope CW will elevate his current game. Paying CW 4-5 million a year, (what I think it takes to satisfy him and his agent, minimum), is a waste unless he all of a sudden turns into Tuck next season, I don't see that happening.

[b bulldog]

After listening to TT's comments today from Indy, I really think 99 is here because they have doubts about Jolly and questions about Harrell.

[RashanGary]

After listening to TT's comments today from Indy, I really think 99 is here because they have doubts about Jolly and questions about Harrell.

Where did ya listen to that?

[b bulldog]

It was on AM 1570 AT around 1pm when the radio guy was interviewing someone from the Packers report

[b bulldog]

They made it sound like this will most likely ownly be a one year deal also. Obviously, they could be wrong though.

[packers11]

I read that Jolly might not be ready for training camp...

I think having 99 for one more year is the best scenerio for that position... Gives Harrell time to get used to the NFL and helps Jolly progress into a good DT...

[b bulldog]

IMO, that is most liekly the reason why 99 is still a Packer

[hurleyfan]

True but the Giants Dline is far, far better.

Not sure about the Giants Dline being better than the Pack's, but there is a different "philosophy" in the two defenses...

Sanders plays the bend don't break style (yawn), Spagnuolo plays the let's-kick-the-shit-out-of-them philosophy!

Same type of players(maybe) under a different scheme makes a world of difference.... JMO

[CaliforniaCheez]

Injuries happen and some will not be available at playoff time.

Depth is a good thing, especially at DT where the the last few drafts have not been good. Those guys are valuable and Ted can always trade away one of them for another player or favorable draft pick.

[b bulldog]

Tuck, Strahan and Osi are better than anyone we have except Kampy imo.

[hurleyfan]

Tuck, Strahan and Osi are better than anyone we have except Kampy imo.

That's cool... Osi prolly better than any Packer Dline-man..

But Kampman / Pickett / Jolly(Williams) / Jenkins(Harrel) / Cole(KGB) in an attacking style defenseive scheme I say measures up fairly well with the Giant Dline...

[RashanGary]

Hopefully Thompson hits on a bunch of talented Dlineman. Sherman did a pretty good job with Kamp, Williams and Jenkins. We need to keep that rolling.

[RashanGary]

Travelle Wharton, Panthers. Age: 27.
Re-signed with Panthers (6 years, $36 million; $12 million guaranteed)



Travelle Wharton has been ineffective as a tackle in this league, but there's a belief he'll be better suited at guard. Either way, I wouldn't spend much money on him.

This guy got 6 years, 36. Forgive me for not knowing my obscure NFL Olineman, but who the hell is this guy and how did he get 12 million gauranteed.

If you wonder what Corey Williams would have gotten, look no further than the 30th ranked free agent who happens to be an OG.

Williams would have gotten close to 50 mil IMO.

[Guiness]

As far as CW goes, he is still not going to be worth the money we might give him in a longer deal even if he gives us a discount. I'd rather hope for Harrel and/or Jolly to send CW packing next year with their improved play than hope CW will elevate his current game. Paying CW 4-5 million a year, (what I think it takes to satisfy him and his agent, minimum), is a waste unless he all of a sudden turns into Tuck next season, I don't see that happening.

wow, have to wholeheartedly disagree with that!

7 sacks from the DT position? Not worth big dollars? Him being there allows us to generate a pass rush inside and outside is very valuable. And don't give me that stuff about him not being an every down player, not a starter, etc.

The reality is that a player of CW skill is worth that, or near to it. Throw in that he is a FA and he is easily worth that. Tuck would probably get 8 mil or so on the FA market.

[RashanGary]

That guy who just got 36 mil was given a rating of 2 stars. Williams was given a rating of 4 stars.

Now, walterfootball.com is no SI, but the common thought was that Williams was one of the top guys and this OG was down the list. Watch what these UFA's get. It's rediculous.

[b bulldog]

I know some wills scoff at this but I will repeat what I posted once 99 as tagged, he must be very upset by this. He would have most likely recieved a signing bonus in the 10-15 mil range and now he risks injury.

[RashanGary]

I know some wills scoff at this but I will repeat what I posted once 99 as tagged, he must be very upset by this. He would have most likely recieved a signing bonus in the 10-15 mil range and now he risks injury.

I've been saying it for a while. Nate Clements got 7 years 80 million with 23 or so gauranteed last year or something crazy like that.


All I can say is sit back and watch the fireworks when these guys get signed. There are a dozen guys out there this year who are as good as last years top two or three. I'll bet there are 10 or so contracts over 50 million dollars with many of them being guys who never made it to probowls. Williams would have been one of them.

[twoseven]

As far as CW goes, he is still not going to be worth the money we might give him in a longer deal even if he gives us a discount. I'd rather hope for Harrel and/or Jolly to send CW packing next year with their improved play than hope CW will elevate his current game. Paying CW 4-5 million a year, (what I think it takes to satisfy him and his agent, minimum), is a waste unless he all of a sudden turns into Tuck next season, I don't see that happening.

wow, have to wholeheartedly disagree with that!

7 sacks from the DT position? Not worth big dollars? Him being there allows us to generate a pass rush inside and outside is very valuable. And don't give me that stuff about him not being an every down player, not a starter, etc.

The reality is that a player of CW skill is worth that, or near to it. Throw in that he is a FA and he is easily worth that. Tuck would probably get 8 mil or so on the FA market.
How many of those seven sacks came as a result of Kamp and/or KGB getting behind the QB and flushing him right into CW? I can remember seeing CW clean up on at least a couple of sacks in this manner. CW was not bullrushing all by himself and getting 7 solo sacks on pure power. One could argue that CW was often there to clean up the mess that was made by our outside pressure. For 5-6 million a year he should be constantly generating pressure all by himself. Just being there in the area when the QB scrambles towards him is not enough.

[twoseven]

I know some wills scoff at this but I will repeat what I posted once 99 as tagged, he must be very upset by this. He would have most likely recieved a signing bonus in the 10-15 mil range and now he risks injury.
If TT offered him a longer deal of 3-4 or 4-5 mil a year with a small signing bonus (we will not know unless TT tells us, and he won't) and CW's agent turned it down, which I would expect, who's actually to blame if CW gets hurt this year? CW and his agent can argue that he's actually worth more than 3-4 mil a year, but we all have eyes and know full well the market was setting CW's price, not his play. TT did exactly what he had to do, and if CW and/or his agent couldn't have seen the move coming a mile away I want to know what they were thinking.

[Fritz]

This is what Scott Wright said about who could be the BPA at #30 based on the depth of the draft

[Comment From Scott Wright]
Honestly, that is tough to say at this point. There should be solid value left at offensive tackle and cornerback late in round one though and a good defensive end could fall too.




Wow, this would be ideal. I'd love any of these positions. A talented DE, CB or OT would be perfect for this team.

This concept of a "value" pick has long been a mystery to me. I remember Mel Kiper calling a Packers' pick - was it Darrell Thompson? - a good "value" pick. My sense is that what this means is that a value pick is a guy with a big name who hasn't been picked yet. He may be a sucky pro, but dammit, he's a "value" pick. For example, let's say a guy like Mike Hart from Michigan is sitting around in round four. I like Mike Hart - great college player - but he's a third down back, tops, in the NFL. Yet when teams draft in the fourth round, Hart will be called a "value" pick. This although TT might draft an offensive tackle from New Mexico State of whom we've never heard but has a better chance to be a starting NFL right tackle than Hart does of being a starting running back.

So this value thing - I don't get it.

[Bretsky]

As far as CW goes, he is still not going to be worth the money we might give him in a longer deal even if he gives us a discount. I'd rather hope for Harrel and/or Jolly to send CW packing next year with their improved play than hope CW will elevate his current game. Paying CW 4-5 million a year, (what I think it takes to satisfy him and his agent, minimum), is a waste unless he all of a sudden turns into Tuck next season, I don't see that happening.

wow, have to wholeheartedly disagree with that!

7 sacks from the DT position? Not worth big dollars? Him being there allows us to generate a pass rush inside and outside is very valuable. And don't give me that stuff about him not being an every down player, not a starter, etc.

The reality is that a player of CW skill is worth that, or near to it. Throw in that he is a FA and he is easily worth that. Tuck would probably get 8 mil or so on the FA market.
How many of those seven sacks came as a result of Kamp and/or KGB getting behind the QB and flushing him right into CW? I can remember seeing CW clean up on at least a couple of sacks in this manner. CW was not bullrushing all by himself and getting 7 solo sacks on pure power. One could argue that CW was often there to clean up the mess that was made by our outside pressure. For 5-6 million a year he should be constantly generating pressure all by himself. Just being there in the area when the QB scrambles towards him is not enough.

Regardless 14 sacks from a DT in two years cannot be discounted much. There are other DT's better than CW, but this stat is quite telling that Williams is an effective pass rusher and our most effective pass rushing DT.

I actually think AK has a lot of effort sacks. It would be interesting to see, but I think most of CW's sacks were earned as opposed to from other DL flushing the QB up.

Earlier this year in JS Insider there was a nice article on how two other scouts graded out Williams and I think they considered him our best pass rushing DT and our 2nd best all around DT behind Pickett. They figured he's strike gold in free agency. It was smart IMO to franchise him.

[RashanGary]

Fritz, value as they see it (or as we see it) is often skewed.

Right now though, we don't get to peek at Thompsons board, so we have to base value off what the publications say it is.

At the end of the day, I'm going to take the assumption that Thompsons pick is far better than any of theirs. Thompson is getting quite a reputation. He was chosen at teh SR bowl to speak to all of the players before the combine began. He told them it was a buisness and to work hard like they would at any job or something like that. Anyway, for the SR Bowl to select Thompson to give that speech, they must have respect for him as a personal man.

Also, if you look at articles written by media members about draft success, Thompson is quickly rising to the forefront.

Last year the local media tore into him with as much arrogance as little queers with artsy degrees can muster. This year I have a feeling it's going to be a very different story because he'll shove their arrogance back in their face with winning records, playoff success and maybe a championship and they know it.