40 year anniversary of My Lai, Vietname massacre

[oregonpackfan]

Today marks the 40 year anniversary of the massacre of 504 Vietnamese women, children, and elderly men by American troops at My Lai, during the Vietnam War.

Led by Lt. William Calley, a platoon of soldiers entered a small village named My Lai, rounded up 504 unarmed Vietnamese civilians, herded them into a ditch, and shot them all.

In lengthy court martial proceedings years later, only Lt. Calley was convicted of any wrongful acts. Just a few days after the conviction, President Nixon commuted Calley's sentence.

Calley ended serving just 3 and 1/2 years of house arrest. He has been a free man ever since.

For those of you not old enough to remember that war, Americans were fed many of the same propaganda and misinformation by our leaders as our leaders gave in for justifying an invasion of Iraq.

In justifying the war in Vietnam, our leaders stated we needed to stop the threat of Communism. The "Domino Theory" of Communism basically stated that if we did not stop the spread of communism in Vietnam, it would spread across the Pacific, and that eventually communists would be storming the beaches of California.

A main justification for escalating the Vietnam War occurred in August of '64 during the alleged Gulf of Tonkin incident. Supposedly, two American military ships were attacked by Vietnamese PT-type of boats over the course of two days. This was reported to the American public by President Lyndon Johnson and several high-ranking military leaders.

Following the incident, Johnson ordered a major escalation of US troops brining the total of American troops in Vietnam to over 500,000.

Years later, the news reports revealed the Gulf of Tonkin attacks never happened! It was all a complete fabrication by both American civilian and miliary leaders to justify increased military action.

During this era, supporters of the Vietnam War echoed many of the jingoistic, patriotic, slogans we hear today about the Iraqi War. The troops were "Defending our country," they were "Fighting for our freedom," and they were "Spreading democracy through the rest of the world."

Finally, after 12 years of warfare, the loss of 58,000 American soldiers, the loss of up to 1 million Vietnamese civilians, and the loss of hundreds of billions of American dollars, the United States finally pulled out.

The major "Domino Theory" of communist expansion never occured after the Vietnam War. Communism did not spread through the Pacific nor did the communists invade America despite the "loss" of the War.

The Iraqi War is celebrating its fifth anniversary this week. Our leaders have already deceived us about Saddam Hussain having weapons of mass destruction being a threat to the security of the United States. Our leaders deceived us into believing Hussain was tied to al-Qaida. They also claimed Hussain was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

All these justifications for invading and occupying Iraq have proven to be false.

For several months, President Bush has been advocating military action against Iran. His claims about Iran possessing a nuclear power program for producing nuclear weapons was recently disputed by the National Intelligence Estimate--a written report of 26 American intelligence agencies. They reported that program ended years ago in 2003.

A famous quote about history is "Those who don't learn the lessons of history are condemn to repeat them." America made a mistake about entering into the War in Vietnam. America made a mistake about entering into the War in Iraq. Will we allow ourselves into yet another mistake into entering a war with Iran?

To learn more about the My Lai massacre, read on:

http://www.comcast.net/news/articles/general/2008/03/16/Vietnam.My.Lai/

[packinpatland]

There are anniversaries that you want to celebrate........some that simply need remembering, some you wish you could forget........

[Deputy Nutz]

It is war. I am not trying to justify what these soldiers did, it was horrible, but at the same time these young men were under unbelievable pressure. Many times platoons would come into these villages and would be attacked by terrorists acts staged by the Viet Cong. This village had previous reports of this behavior.

Imagine walking into a village and having young children run up to you, bringing you a can of coke, or whatever and then blowing your shit up with a booby trapped bombs. It pulls at your nerves a bit.

[BallHawk]

The enemy dressed up as villagers, normal farmers. Your either got off fine or you were killed by what was a seemingly innocent civilian.

It was a horrible tragedy, but there are more angles to it than one.

[Iron Mike]

I had a Warrant Officer in the Army that was an interrogator in Viet Nam. He told us that the best approach to interrogating Victor Charlie was to take a bunch of them up in a Huey and throw one of them out the open door--the rest couldn't wait to get back and tell everything they knew.

Crude, yes. Against the Geneva Conventions, yes. Saved lives, absolutely.

Don't forget that both at that time and at the present we are warring against an ideology that doesn't play by the rules.

It's one thing to decry what someone else does when you're seated comfortably in a chair in front of the Dell. It's another thing entirely when you're humping a pack and all you want to do is go home. Who the hell am I to judge??? :?

[Joemailman]

All of which is why we shouldn't get involved in wars until absolutely necessary. War forces people tp do things they would never contemplate doing in any other circumstance. That fact that 40 years after My Lai we have our troops stuck in another country trying to prop up a foreign government suggests we haven't learned much from history.

[MJZiggy]

WE???? We learned plenty, it was our fearless leader who didn't seem to be paying attention when they went over the "don't deceive the people into war" part of President training...

As I recall, the words Viet Nam came up plenty by citizens in the run up to this war.

(by the way, for the record, I'm not bashing you, Joe. Bush just pisses me off.)

[Kiwon]

Bush just pisses me off.)

Just Bush, not the Congress that keeps funding the war?

[MJZiggy]

He got us into it, he's the commander in chief. Once he got us in there and trashed their (secular) government (that had extremists very well under control, albeit by being more extreme than they were, but still), we kinda have a responsibility to help fix the mess we made, no?

[digitaldean]

Bush just pisses me off.)

Just Bush, not the Congress that keeps funding the war?

You mean the Democratic congress that was supposed to make such a sweeping change when they took charge?? :roll:

They've got lower approval ratings than the President.

[packinpatland]

He got us into it, he's the commander in chief. Once he got us in there and trashed their (secular) government (that had extremists very well under control, albeit by being more extreme than they were, but still), we kinda have a responsibility to help fix the mess we made, no?

I refuse to give to give a president that much credit...or blame....he does what he does with help. We don't live in a monarchy.

[Joemailman]

Although Congress, to their discredit was an enabler, only the President can make the decision to take the country to war. It was the President, not Congress, who appeared in the premature photo-op under the Mission Accomplished banner. The President, as Commander-In-Chief, is responsible for how the war is waged. In that, he has been a colossal failure.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I had a My Lai argument with friend over dinner tonight. Good for the digestion.

I think it is a horrible incident, but one of jillions. Why memoralize that particular disaster? How many South Vietnamese were killed after they were over-run? Then all the massacres that followed in Cambodia, Laos.

I am rambling incoherently. Horrible stuff happens in war, that is one incident we happen to know a little more about. Is that incident a metaphor for the whole war? I don't know. I don't think the U.S. should beat itself up endlessly over that moment of insanity.

[GrnBay007]

I've never been to the Vietnam Memorial Wall in D.C. but the Vietnam Traveling Memorial Wall did come to our city several years ago. It was an amazing experience to visit and pay respects. There were people there 24/7.

There is a young soldier, barely 19 yrs. old, buried near my Grandparents grave site. There was never any flowers at his grave. My sister and I kinda "adopted" him and make sure we put flowers or a flag there at least twice a year. A few years ago my sister saw 3 men standing at his grave. After all this time she felt she had to go talk to them. She learned they were friends that served with him in Vietnam and had finally gotten together and came to visit their old friend. She commented that there were never flowers at his grave. She learned he had a rough childhood and spent the majority of time in juvenile homes. After about 20 years of leaving flowers at his grave we finally learned something about him. Sad story. It's amazing how someone you have never met can touch your heart in some small way.

[oregonpackfan]

I had a My Lai argument with friend over dinner tonight. Good for the digestion.

I think it is a horrible incident, but one of jillions. Why memoralize that particular disaster? How many South Vietnamese were killed after they were over-run? Then all the massacres that followed in Cambodia, Laos.

I am rambling incoherently. Horrible stuff happens in war, that is one incident we happen to know a little more about. Is that incident a metaphor for the whole war? I don't know. I don't think the U.S. should beat itself up endlessly over that moment of insanity.

One aspect we need to learn from that event is to avoid dehumanizing civilian populations that are not like us. During the Vietnam War, both American soldiers and American civilians derisively referred to the Vietnamese as "Gooks."

When Lt. Calley was convicted and sentenced, many Americans were upset that a "War Hero" was convicted for killing a bunch of "Commie Gooks." That outcry led Nixon to commute Calley's sentence from many years in federal prison to just a few years of house arrest.

A number of Americans use the same dehumanizing attitude towards Iraqis calling them "Ragheads" or "Towelheads."

Most civilian populations during warfare have little support for the policies of their leaders. Nevertheless, they are often caught up in the tragic decisions made by their leaders.

[Joemailman]

I had a My Lai argument with friend over dinner tonight. Good for the digestion.

I think it is a horrible incident, but one of jillions. Why memoralize that particular disaster? How many South Vietnamese were killed after they were over-run? Then all the massacres that followed in Cambodia, Laos.

I am rambling incoherently. Horrible stuff happens in war, that is one incident we happen to know a little more about. Is that incident a metaphor for the whole war? I don't know. I don't think the U.S. should beat itself up endlessly over that moment of insanity.

I think people in this country tend to remember My Lai not just because of what it did to the Vietnamese, but because of what it did to us. Many Americans were justifiably outraged by an incident that had been done in their name. For many, there could no longer be a justification for our continuing involvement in Vietnam.

[Harlan Huckleby]

A number of Americans use the same dehumanizing attitude towards Iraqis calling them "Ragheads" or "Towelheads."

The situation is a little different in Iraq now, the troops are trying to mingle with the population and act as a police force.

I think it may be a psychological necessity for soldiers to dehumanize the enemy. The hatred towards the people who are killing your friends must be intense. Think about a pilot that has to drop bombs on Japanese soldiers, after all the atrocities. Do you think the pilot doesn't view this as like spraying RAID on an anthill? A person would almost have to think of the enemy as trash to get through it all.

[MadtownPacker]

I've never been to the Vietnam Memorial Wall in D.C. but the Vietnam Traveling Memorial Wall did come to our city several years ago. It was an amazing experience to visit and pay respects. There were people there 24/7.

There is a young soldier, barely 19 yrs. old, buried near my Grandparents grave site. There was never any flowers at his grave. My sister and I kinda "adopted" him and make sure we put flowers or a flag there at least twice a year. A few years ago my sister saw 3 men standing at his grave. After all this time she felt she had to go talk to them. She learned they were friends that served with him in Vietnam and had finally gotten together and came to visit their old friend. She commented that there were never flowers at his grave. She learned he had a rough childhood and spent the majority of time in juvenile homes. After about 20 years of leaving flowers at his grave we finally learned something about him. Sad story. It's amazing how someone you have never met can touch your heart in some small way.Thats a great story 7. Lot better than the Joe, OPF, and HH trying to throw their chest out like some Grumpy Old Men sequel.

[Deputy Nutz]

I had a My Lai argument with friend over dinner tonight. Good for the digestion.

I think it is a horrible incident, but one of jillions. Why memoralize that particular disaster? How many South Vietnamese were killed after they were over-run? Then all the massacres that followed in Cambodia, Laos.

I am rambling incoherently. Horrible stuff happens in war, that is one incident we happen to know a little more about. Is that incident a metaphor for the whole war? I don't know. I don't think the U.S. should beat itself up endlessly over that moment of insanity.

One aspect we need to learn from that event is to avoid dehumanizing civilian populations that are not like us. During the Vietnam War, both American soldiers and American civilians derisively referred to the Vietnamese as "Gooks."

When Lt. Calley was convicted and sentenced, many Americans were upset that a "War Hero" was convicted for killing a bunch of "Commie Gooks." That outcry led Nixon to commute Calley's sentence from many years in federal prison to just a few years of house arrest.

A number of Americans use the same dehumanizing attitude towards Iraqis calling them "Ragheads" or "Towelheads."

Most civilian populations during warfare have little support for the policies of their leaders. Nevertheless, they are often caught up in the tragic decisions made by their leaders.

Did you know that the majority of the Vietnam War was fought by Viet Cong and North Vietnamese dressed like common villiagers? It wasn't easy, as I said I don't condone what they did, but I can reason how it happened.

[Patler]

The sad thing is that only Calley's name is remembered with this. Much of the support for Calley at the time was not because people thought what he did was acceptable or even excusable, but because he was being made the sole fall guy for many, many others. There were superior officers on site at My Lai, some of whom seemingly participated in the indiscriminate killing; yet their names have been mostly forgotten. This was a relatively small area, with superior officers on site. The atrocities were numerous and wide spread. To dump it all on the head of a single 2nd Lieuie when other Lieutenants and Captains were there was ridiculous. Others of equal and higher rank knew, saw and participated, and did little to stop it or control it. Yet only Calley is remembered, as if he was the one in command at the site.

Calley took one for the team. I'm not suggesting he was blameless. What went on was wrong and he was part of it, but only a part of it; and perhaps not even the most culpable part either. It is another one of those situations in which we may never know what all happened, who instigated it, why it got as far out of control as it did, and who really could have stopped it. Someone was found for everyone to blame, to satisfy the urge for justice, even though justice probably did not come to all who deserved it.

[Scott Campbell]

He got us into it, he's the commander in chief. Once he got us in there and trashed their (secular) government (that had extremists very well under control, albeit by being more extreme than they were, but still), we kinda have a responsibility to help fix the mess we made, no?

I refuse to give to give a president that much credit...or blame....he does what he does with help. We don't live in a monarchy.


Iraq and Vietnam are not the first boondoggle wars that we've entered into. American troops were accused of water torture in the Phillipines around the turn of the century. Commanders there felt that torture was not barbarism because the natives were sub human.

[Patler]

One aspect we need to learn from that event is to avoid dehumanizing civilian populations that are not like us. During the Vietnam War, both American soldiers and American civilians derisively referred to the Vietnamese as "Gooks."

When Lt. Calley was convicted and sentenced, many Americans were upset that a "War Hero" was convicted for killing a bunch of "Commie Gooks." That outcry led Nixon to commute Calley's sentence from many years in federal prison to just a few years of house arrest.

A number of Americans use the same dehumanizing attitude towards Iraqis calling them "Ragheads" or "Towelheads."

Most civilian populations during warfare have little support for the policies of their leaders. Nevertheless, they are often caught up in the tragic decisions made by their leaders.

Do you think this is unique to American soldiers? It is true of any combatant. Do those who plot terrorist attacks think of their civilian targets as valuable human beings? Did the people in the Twin Towers have any intrinsic value as human beings to the terrorists in the planes that crashed into the Towers? How is the American civilian population referred to by them? Just as derisively.

[oregonpackfan]

The sad thing is that only Calley's name is remembered with this. Much of the support for Calley at the time was not because people thought what he did was acceptable or even excusable, but because he was being made the sole fall guy for many, many others. There were superior officers on site at My Lai, some of whom seemingly participated in the indiscriminate killing; yet their names have been mostly forgotten. This was a relatively small area, with superior officers on site. T

.

Patler,

While I agree that many people believed Calley was being used as a scapegoat, it is my understanding that he was the ranking officer on the site of Charlie Platoon.

Calley claimed that he was just following orders from Capt. Ernest Medina, who was not at the direct site. Capt, Medina was later cleared of all charges.

It was interesting to read that evening though the massacre occurred in March of '69, the American public did not know about it until November of '69. Initially the army tried to cover it up.

One of the officers accused in the coverup was a 31 year old major named Colin Powell. Many years later, of course, Colin Powell was George W. Bush's Secretary of State. While acting as Secretary of State, Powell appeared before the United States stating the administration had irrefutable proof that Saddam Hussain had weapons of mass destruction which posed a threat to the security of the United States.

[oregonpackfan]

One aspect we need to learn from that event is to avoid dehumanizing civilian populations that are not like us. During the Vietnam War, both American soldiers and American civilians derisively referred to the Vietnamese as "Gooks."

When Lt. Calley was convicted and sentenced, many Americans were upset that a "War Hero" was convicted for killing a bunch of "Commie Gooks." That outcry led Nixon to commute Calley's sentence from many years in federal prison to just a few years of house arrest.

A number of Americans use the same dehumanizing attitude towards Iraqis calling them "Ragheads" or "Towelheads."

Most civilian populations during warfare have little support for the policies of their leaders. Nevertheless, they are often caught up in the tragic decisions made by their leaders.

Do you think this is unique to American soldiers? It is true of any combatant. Do those who plot terrorist attacks think of their civilian targets as valuable human beings? Did the people in the Twin Towers have any intrinsic value as human beings to the terrorists in the planes that crashed into the Towers? How is the American civilian population referred to by them? Just as derisively.

Patler,

The dehumanizing of civilians of other countries is hardly unique to Americans.

What I was stating that if we Americans portray ourselves as "Pillars of Democracy" we have to extend respect to civilians of all countries not just the civilians of those countries who are our allies.

[Patler]

Patler,

While I agree that many people believed Calley was being used as a scapegoat, it is my understanding that he was the ranking officer on the site of Charlie Platoon.

Calley claimed that he was just following orders from Capt. Ernest Medina, who was not at the direct site. Capt, Medina was later cleared of all charges.

It was interesting to read that evening though the massacre occurred in March of '69, the American public did not know about it until November of '69. Initially the army tried to cover it up.

One of the officers accused in the coverup was a 31 year old major named Colin Powell. Many years later, of course, Colin Powell was George W. Bush's Secretary of State. While acting as Secretary of State, Powell appeared before the United States stating the administration had irrefutable proof that Saddam Hussain had weapons of mass destruction which posed a threat to the security of the United States.

My recollection is that Medina was acknowledged to have been there, and that he shot several people on the ground, with the excuse that he thought they might be covering explosives with their bodies. Because no one could dispute what he "thought", and since they were laying on the ground at the time, it was determined that his apprehension was reasonable.

Calley was seen shooting noncombatants who were standing.

[Patler]

While I agree that many people believed Calley was being used as a scapegoat, it is my understanding that he was the ranking officer on the site of Charlie Platoon.

Calley claimed that he was just following orders from Capt. Ernest Medina, who was not at the direct site. Capt, Medina was later cleared of all charges.


Haven't thought about this in a long time, but it brings back memories.

It wasn't just Medina. There was a belief even by others than Calley that the pre-operation briefing the day before gave them orders to eradicate several villages. There was a Colonel involved with that briefing, whose name I do not recall. For some reason the villages (there were several in the operation, not just My Lai) were supposed to have been emptied, so that the only people remaining were V.C., V.C. sympathizers or those harboring V.C. The objective was to make the villages uninhabitable.

Not that any of this excuses Calley, but with a reported 500 villagers killed, for one and only one lowly second lieutenant to shoulder the blame is hard to believe. After Calley's conviction, the rest of the possible charges were made to go away to get the spotlight off the situation.

[Harlan Huckleby]

There was a bar called "The 602 Club" in Madison where 60's survivors, university types, boho people used to gather. I remember reading about 15 years ago that you could walk-in any night and night and overhear a debate on ending the Vietnam War. I feel like I'm there again.

http://members.aol.com/The602Club/602club.htm

[Freak Out]

My Lai was a pretty disgusting act in a pretty disgusting war but it was most definitely not the only time American forces knowingly killed civilians in southeast Asia.
Civilians always suffer the most in any war and civilian casualties always outnumber the deaths of the armed combatants...usually by huge numbers.
The difference was that in My Lai they lined them up and gunned them down...face to face.

[Patler]

The difference was that in My Lai they lined them up and gunned them down...face to face.

Even that may not have been unique to My Lai, nor to Vietnam.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

There was a bar called "The 602 Club" in Madison where 60's survivors, university types, boho people used to gather. I remember reading about 15 years ago that you could walk-in any night and night and overhear a debate on ending the Vietnam War. I feel like I'm there again.

http://members.aol.com/The602Club/602club.htm

Ty use to hang there.

It was "the dank, dark, 602 club."

[Freak Out]

The difference was that in My Lai they lined them up and gunned them down...face to face.

Even that may not have been unique to My Lai, nor to Vietnam.

No doubt about it.