China Olympics

[Harlan Huckleby]

PARIS (AP) - Moves to punish China over its handling of violence in Tibet gained momentum Tuesday, with a novel suggestion for a mini-boycott of the Beijing Olympics by VIPs at the opening ceremony.

Such a protest by world leaders would be a huge slap in the face for China's Communist leadership.

France's outspoken foreign minister, former humanitarian campaigner Bernard Kouchner, said the idea "is interesting."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080318/D8VG3QDG0.html


I'm in favor of some sort of statement. Those bastards are being real turds in Darfur, too.

On a related note, I got a fortune cookie in chinese restaraunt yesterday that predicted, "You will be hungry in one hour." At least they have a sense of humor.

[The Leaper]

What is embarrassing is the IOC...that they even CONSIDERED China as an appropriate venue in the first place.

Let's have the Olympics in Iran in 2012.

[oregonpackfan]

I am upset at the harsh methods used by the Chinese in Tibet.

Boycotting part or all of the Olympics is a bad idea, IMO. When America boycotted the Olympics in '80, it just hurt the American Olympic athletes. It had virtually no effect on the Soviet Union(now Russia).

Many of those athletes train for years to qualify for the Olympics. It does a major disservice to them to deny them to opportunity to participate.

One major goal of the Olympics is to enable people from different parts of the world to come and meet and get to know each other. To mix political ideology and governmental practices interferes with that goal.

Keep political agendas out of the Olympics.

[BallHawk]

Agreed, OPF.

Well said.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The boycott is by non-athletes at the opening ceremony.

Totally appropriate in my opinion, doesn't effect the olympics themselves.

[Scott Campbell]

I plan on boycotting synchronized swimming and rhythmic gymnastics.

[Partial]

I have read Athletes are boycotting over the air quality. I know Roddick just skipped a tournament their as well over it.

[Freak Out]

I have read Athletes are boycotting over the air quality. I know Roddick just skipped a tournament their as well over it.

The air quality in Beijing makes LA of the 70s seem like Eden...it is that bad. The Central Government has promised to shut down all the coal fired plants within 100s of miles during the games but it is still an ugly situation. Summers there are pretty nasty anyway. These games are going to be very strange to say the least.

[Harlan Huckleby]

nuke 'um. Gotta be done, you know it, I know it.

[Freak Out]

nuke 'um. Gotta be done, you know it, I know it.

I thought London would have been a better place to hold the games anyway.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"Political Science", Randy Newman

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paris
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Very few athletes are boycotting the games. Some are choosing to arrive late as to not endanger their health.

The athletes that will most likely not show are the long distance runners. That level of air quality can basically kill their careers. Haile Gebrselassie has pulled out ONLY from the marathon but will still attend. Other long distance runners can suffer from things like exercise induced asthma.

It isn't just the air quality, it is also that the games are being held in August which combines that with extreme heat and humidity.

Justine Henin says she won't compete as well...she has asthma.

[The Leaper]

Boycotting part or all of the Olympics is a bad idea, IMO. When America boycotted the Olympics in '80, it just hurt the American Olympic athletes. It had virtually no effect on the Soviet Union(now Russia).

I disagree OPF.

While I do admit that our boycott in 1980 probably had little effect on the USSR, a boycott of China in 2008 is an entirely different scenario. For starters, it isn't ONLY the US who is considering pulling out...and the reasons for pulling out are not simply political disagreements, although they play a significant role.

Russia was ALREADY a world superpower in 1980. An Olympic snub meant little to them.

China is TRYING to become more of a power on the world stage...and an Olympic snub would mean a great deal to them IMO. As such, since little else works in getting China to listen, a boycott should certainly be a heavy consideration. I think it should be a last resort...but we, and the world in general, should certainly use the potential of a boycott to pressure China into human rights reform.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Boycotting part or all of the Olympics is a bad idea, IMO. When America boycotted the Olympics in '80, it just hurt the American Olympic athletes. It had virtually no effect on the Soviet Union(now Russia).

I disagree OPF.

While I do admit that our boycott in 1980 probably had little effect on the USSR, a boycott of China in 2008 is an entirely different scenario. For starters, it isn't ONLY the US who is considering pulling out...and the reasons for pulling out are not simply political disagreements, although they play a significant role.

Russia was ALREADY a world superpower in 1980. An Olympic snub meant little to them.

China is TRYING to become more of a power on the world stage...and an Olympic snub would mean a great deal to them IMO. As such, since little else works in getting China to listen, a boycott should certainly be a heavy consideration. I think it should be a last resort...but we, and the world in general, should certainly use the potential of a boycott to pressure China into human rights reform.

Gonna be hard to pressure ANYBODY on human rights reform when we are torturing people. Regardless of your, mine, etc. viewpoint..most of the world deplores our actions in GT, Abu, and our methods.

Also, using a big stick against china is the wrong method. Diplomacy is what is needed.

Time to start listening to leaders like Fox Fallon. We need a "combination of strength and willingness to engage."

The chinese ARE a power. The way to engage them is opening new lines of communication and reducing the capacity for misunderstanding during times of crisis. But beyond that, it means telling the Chinese, if you want to be treated as a big boy and a major player, you've got to act like it.

If you want recognition of your power, then you have to accept the responsibility that comes with such power. Boycotting isn't the way to do that.

China is our most important relationship for the future, given the realities of people, economics, and location. We've got to work hard and make sure we do our best to get it right.

Since the Chinese are big on respect/shame..is this the way to go? Do we want to slight them in a way that will cause us major problems?

Boycotting is the wrong thing to do.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Gonna be hard to pressure ANYBODY on human rights reform when we are torturing people. Regardless of your, mine, etc. viewpoint..most of the world deplores our actions in GT, Abu, and our methods.

It's not a unilateral action by U.S. It would be broad statement.


Also, using a big stick against china is the wrong method. Diplomacy is what is needed.

Boycotting a ceremony is not a big stick. And we already have plenty of engagement and diplomacy.


The way to engage them is opening new lines of communication and reducing the capacity for misunderstanding during times of crisis.

Again, we have great engagement with china already. Lack of communication is not the issue.


Since the Chinese are big on respect/shame..is this the way to go?

yes! yes!


Do we want to slight them in a way that will cause us major problems?

Again, it's a broad boycott, not just the U.S. or another coallition of the willing. China is not going to withdraw from the world. Why do you suppose this Olympics means so much to them? This is a rare and appropriate time to remind China that they will BENEFIT from less authoritarian treatment of their unwilling subjects.

[Freak Out]

Our current regime will do nothing to pressure the Chinese on something as trivial as the Olympic games considering they have us by the balls financially.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Gonna be hard to pressure ANYBODY on human rights reform when we are torturing people. Regardless of your, mine, etc. viewpoint..most of the world deplores our actions in GT, Abu, and our methods.

It's not a unilateral action by U.S. It would be broad statement.


Also, using a big stick against china is the wrong method. Diplomacy is what is needed.

Boycotting a ceremony is not a big stick. And we already have plenty of engagement and diplomacy.


The way to engage them is opening new lines of communication and reducing the capacity for misunderstanding during times of crisis.

Again, we have great engagement with china already. Lack of communication is not the issue.


Since the Chinese are big on respect/shame..is this the way to go?

yes! yes!


Do we want to slight them in a way that will cause us major problems?

Again, it's a broad boycott, not just the U.S. or another coallition of the willing. China is not going to withdraw from the world. Why do you suppose this Olympics means so much to them? This is a rare and appropriate time to remind China that they will BENEFIT from less authoritarian treatment of their unwilling subjects.

I know it is unilateral, but WE carry the most weight. We are the big player..militarily, economically...and most importantly..competition in the olympics.

Plenty of engagment and diplomacy? Are you kidding. Until Fallon engaged them in 05 they were going to be one of our next wars. Fallon ran into major neocon push back.

Shame: Wrong.

Slight them: I'm not talking about just the olympics...i'm talking about what happens afterward. I guess you just wanna play into the chinese hardliner's hands. Yep, let's just give them another excuse.

Not competing will not show them a benefit. It will only show our hypocrisy.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Our current regime will do nothing to pressure the Chinese on something as trivial as the Olympic games considering they have us by the balls financially.

Yeah, let's not forget who lent us money to finance our current wars.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Not competing will not show them a benefit. It will only show our hypocrisy.

TB, I think you need to read the article. Nobody is threatening to not compete. The boycott is of part of the opening ceremonies that does not involve athletes.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Not competing will not show them a benefit. It will only show our hypocrisy.

TB, I think you need to read the article. Nobody is threatening to not compete. The boycott is of part of the opening ceremonies that does not involve athletes.

I didn't read the article. Sorry.

Still don't think boycotting the ceremonies is a good idea. Not going to change anything, and special moment for the athletes.

[Joemailman]

Why not just nuke 'em?

[MJZiggy]

While I see the point of the boycott, I've come to the conclusion that politics and the Olympics should be kept separate. The Olympics is supposed to be about friendly competition between nations (keyword: SUPPOSED). Why politicize it?

[Scott Campbell]

There are a lot of ways to make a political statement at the Olympics without resorting to a boycott. Statements made while attending the games seem far more impactful to me.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/GLO/ETH00010~Black-Power-Mexico-City-Olympics-1968-Posters.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

http://www.radiozitacuaro.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/JesseOwens.jpg

[Harlan Huckleby]

the athletes are prohibited from making political statements.

[Scott Campbell]

the athletes are prohibited from making political statements.


LOL

Well, ok, Tommie Smith and John Carlos were prohibited. Did it stop them? Is there a more enduring image in the history of the games?

Jesse Owens made his statement just by showing up and not being inferior to Hitler's superior race.

I'm glad those guys didn't boycott the Olympics.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't see how an athlete could make a statement about Tibet.

don't know how the enforcement is done. Would the entire team be punished?

understand that nobody is proposing a boycott by athletes.

[Scott Campbell]

don't know how the enforcement is done. Would the entire team be punished?


I think the IOC sent Smith and Carlos home.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't see how an athlete could make a statement about Tibet.


I'm confident the athletes could come up with something not nearly as lame as a couple of starched shirts staying home.

[Scott Campbell]

understand that nobody is proposing a boycott by athletes.


And why would they stay home? I'm arguing that you can make a bigger impression by attending.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Boy, you certainly are a wild-eyed radical.

I think a coordinated, symbolic gesture by a large number of countries would be a big deal to the chinese, much more so than an individual acting.

edit: it occurs to me that some people didn't read the article and don't know what we are talking about. SC is showing the signs.

[Scott Campbell]

What article?

[Joemailman]

Chancellor Merkel of Germany will not attend Olympics.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/29/germany.olympicgames2008

[texaspackerbacker]

France, believe it or not, is acting all tough on this too.

There are a lot of good reasons to get along with the Chinese--about 1.3 billion of them. A troublesome relationship with them, of course, would be as bad or worse for them than it would be for us. The point, though, is that it would be bad for us--economically and potentially militarily.

And for what? A bunch of people in Tibet who aren't really all that bad off, a large segment of whom, I recently found out, are actually Muslims.

If Europe wants to make a big deal about this, let 'em. Just don't help 'em out--like they haven't done crap for us in Iraq against a REAL enemy.

[MJZiggy]

Aren't there places in Africa that need our intervention a whole lot more than Tibet? I would think a young redhead traveling in Africa should not need to worry her father quite so much as her voyage did.

[Harlan Huckleby]

What is happenning in Tibet is similar to what we did to the American Indians.

I am completely in favor of joining the euros in protesting the Chinese brutalizing thousands of monks.

Tex's observation that a lot of Tibetans are Muslims is passing strange. Do we only want human rights for Christians? I also am disturbed by the anti-Muslim talk in the other thread. This is new to me, never heard such attitudes towards another group (well, except for my own numerous racist remarks. ) Very foolish and ignorant. The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, the second largest is India. The muslim populations in those places are not radicalized.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Aren't there places in Africa that need our intervention a whole lot more than Tibet?

Ya know, we're not talking about sending the marines. ITs just not attending a ceremony.

[oregonpackfan]

Our current regime will do nothing to pressure the Chinese on something as trivial as the Olympic games considering they have us by the balls financially.

Freak Out,

There is quite a bit of validity to your argument. During the past years, the USA has gone from a creditor nation to a debtor nation.

China is the largest creditor of our 9 trillion dollar debt. The last thing we would want to do is anger our major creditor and have them demand immediate payment to them. It would financially paralyze our country.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Actually Oregon, you got it upside down. Its the debtor that has the creditor by the balls!

Nothing get you more respect and attention in this world like being in debt. Then people are concerned about your welfare.

(I'm only joking, but there is considerable truth in what I say.)

[Deputy Nutz]

The USA is going to bring in all of their own food for their athletes for fear of contamination of their athletes and other health concerns.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Will they order out chinese?

[Deputy Nutz]

Will they order out chinese?

HA HA HA HA....
Not unless they want to fail their drug tests.

[texaspackerbacker]

What is happenning in Tibet is similar to what we did to the American Indians.

I am completely in favor of joining the euros in protesting the Chinese brutalizing thousands of monks.

Tex's observation that a lot of Tibetans are Muslims is passing strange. Do we only want human rights for Christians? I also am disturbed by the anti-Muslim talk in the other thread. This is new to me, never heard such attitudes towards another group (well, except for my own numerous racist remarks. ) Very foolish and ignorant. The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, the second largest is India. The muslim populations in those places are not radicalized.

What we did with the American Indians was conquer them, just as nations and ethnic groups have been doing to other nations and ethnic groups since the dawn of civilization. And we did it in a relatively more compassionate way than most other conquerors in history. The counter-examples to that compassion were aberrations, few and far between, and far less aggregious than atrocities perpetrated by the Indians. That is reality undistorted by wrongheaded political correctness.

It goes against the grain for me to side with China--basically STILL Red China. However, the new menace to basic decency and civilization in the world is Islamic fundamentalism. And that menace is even attacking yesterday's primary evil--Communism, as embodied by China.

Oh yes, Tibet is primarily Buddhist, and the Dalai Lama is a much adored man of peace, etc. But the Dalai Lama himself has made the statement that many of the troublemakers do not represent him. In fact, some percentage of them, I have to confess, I don't know how much, are Muslims.

I will not go so far as saying I condone the Chinese having a blank check to beat down the Tibetans. What I am saying, though, is that we don't really have a dog in this fight. There are a lot of evils in the world. To borrow a phrase from the non-interventionist liberals, we can't be the world's policeman--not all the time, anyway.

Combine that with the fact that China is an economic force that we need--almost as much as they need us, and it's best we stay out of this mess. Let the damn Europeans act macho if they feel up to it.

Harlan, I wholeheartedly agree with your response to Oregon about the debtor being in the catbird's seat over the creditor--both on the international scene and in many cases, micro-economically too.

[Freak Out]

Don't ever mess with the sacred flame fools!

Turned Off by Torch Guards

Beijing Battles Accusations of Rough Tactics by 'Sacred Flame Protection Unit'

By Edward Cody
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, April 11, 2008; A12

BEIJING, April 10 -- As protesters besiege the Olympic torch on its global tour, a phalanx of tall, tough-looking young Chinese men in blue-and-white running gear have vigorously protected the flame -- too vigorously in the eyes of those who consider protest a constitutional right.

With their steely demeanor and strong-arm tactics, they have become a symbol of what is going wrong for Chinese authorities who had hoped to make the 2008 Beijing Games a worldwide celebration of China's friendly new face.

Sebastian Coe, chairman of the Olympic organizing committee for 2012 in London, called the men "thugs" and said they had pushed him around when the flame passed through the city Sunday. A spokeswoman for the Paris police, Marie Lajus, said the men had failed to coordinate with local authorities when they grabbed the torch and put out the flame during protests in the French capital Monday. One torchbearer described them as aggressive and robotic; another called them tense and irritable.

A San Francisco police spokesman, Sgt. Neville Gittens, said city authorities debated whether to allow the Chinese guards to participate in the ceremonies planned Wednesday for the torch's only stop in North America. In the end, the guards stayed, but the torch was secretly rerouted to avoid protesters.

Fleeing the public and accusations of thuggery were not what Beijing municipal and Olympic organizing committee authorities had in mind last August when they held a public ceremony to swear in the Beijing Olympic Games Sacred Flame Protection Unit. The special squad was made up of closely vetted volunteers from the special forces academy of the paramilitary People's Armed Police, state-controlled news media reported.

Resentment of the Chinese guards in London and Paris was heightened by apparent efforts to maintain secrecy about who they were. After the complaints in London, British police refused to be specific. Police in Paris said they were not really sure.

Olympic officials in Beijing, meanwhile, said the guards were specially trained student volunteers but did not say from which school. China's Internet censors also removed long-standing online reports of the August swearing-in ceremony.

At the time, the reports said the volunteer policemen were chosen for their height, proportion and good physical condition. The reports also said the young men had received special training in five foreign languages -- learning words such as "back" and "forward" -- and were taught good manners, as well as how to drive cars and motorcycles in convoys along crowd-lined streets.

Jacques Rogge, president of the International Olympic Committee, said in Beijing on Thursday that surrounding the torch with private security agents has become "standard practice" in pre-Olympic relays. He did not differentiate between private security and China's People's Armed Police, which has been used extensively in recent weeks to put down protests in Tibet and other Tibetan-inhabited areas -- the conflict that inspired most of those demonstrating abroad as the torch passed.

China's civilian and military authorities have joint command over the People's Armed Police, nearly 700,000 men and women assigned to protect foreign embassies in Beijing along with suppressing riots, controlling the border and fighting fires. But their standard police tactics for China, where state authority is enforced with an iron hand, were bound to not play well during the Olympic torch's stops in London, Paris and San Francisco.

"China's Thugs," said a headline in London's Evening Standard newspaper. "Flame farce with Chinese heavies, jogging police and riotous demos," the Daily Mail said.

Against that background, Michael Phelan, the police chief in Canberra, Australia, told reporters that the Chinese squad would have no role when the flame stops in the Australian capital April 24, despite reports of planned protests.

Other stops where the flame's guards appear likely to be tested are April 17 in New Delhi, where India's large community of Tibetan exiles will have access; April 26 in Nagano, Japan, a country with a tradition of open demonstrations; and May 2 in Hong Kong, where residents are used to challenging Beijing. The torch will be in Buenos Aires on Friday.

Within mainland China, authorities have vowed to go ahead with a relay leg in Tibet, including an ascent of Mount Everest, despite the violence last month in Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, and plans for protests by Tibet independence campaigners. But Olympic organizers have refused to be pinned down on dates for the climb.

The Beijing Organizing Committee for the Olympic Games has not told foreign correspondents whether they will be able to cover the Tibet leg. As things stand, foreign journalists have been barred from entering the region, where People's Armed Police have been deployed in large numbers.

The impression left by the Olympic torch guards in London and Paris illustrated the gap between Chinese authorities' idea of crowd control and those of societies with guarantees of free speech and assembly. When the torch arrived in Beijing on March 31, the Tiananmen Square welcoming ceremony was untroubled -- mostly because People's Armed Police had closed the venue to anyone without a pass.

In addition, the senior Communist Party officials responsible for China's Olympic preparations have little experience of foreign societies and their values. The two top Olympic officials -- Xi Jinping of the Politburo's Standing Committee and Liu Qi, the Beijing party secretary -- rose through party ranks in provincial assignments.

Kang Xiaoguang, a sociology researcher at Beijing's Renmin University, said Chinese authorities appear determined to prevent protests, by foreigners as well as Chinese, during both the domestic torch relay and the athletic events in August. Some might argue that the Chinese government would gain by tolerating demonstrators, but that is not the way officials in Beijing think, Kang said.

Moreover, the official mood appears to have hardened since the rioting in Tibet. Since the violence, in which 22 people were killed, Chinese authorities have harshly condemned foreign news media and supporters of Tibet.

When House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) seemed to encourage demonstrators in San Francisco, for instance, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, Jiang Yu, accused her of lacking "morality and conscience." Jiang added, "It is clear that kind of person has ulterior motives to disturb and sabotage the Olympic torch relay in San Francisco and elsewhere over and over."

Correspondents Mary Jordan in London and John Ward Anderson in Paris contributed to this report.

[Harlan Huckleby]

i don't agree w/ protesters mobbing the torch runners. that ain't right. I agree w/ the protesters' statement, but they have no right to vandalize. and the runner is not doing anything wrong, they just weigh things differently.