Found this on a blog, interesting TT stat

[sheepshead]

Per Tom Kowalski in the last 3 years (the Ted Thompson draft era) the Lions have drafted 11 players 4th round or later. The Packers have drafted 22 players 4th or beyond which has given them 6 starters to the Lions 0. One these 4th or laters is Mason Crosby.

[Bretsky]

Per Tom Kowalski in the last 3 years (the Ted Thompson draft era) the Lions have drafted 11 players 4th round or later. The Packers have drafted 22 players 4th or beyond which has given them 6 starters to the Lions 0. One these 4th or laters is Mason Crosby.

Six of our starters were 4th round or beyond from TT drafts ?

hmmm

Poppinga
Coston (I'm assuming they count him)
Crosby


I can't think of the others

[PlantPage55]

Then they'd have to count Tony Moll, because he has in fact started.

So,

Mason Crosby
Tony Moll
Junius Coston
Brady Poppinga
Will Whitticker! (pukes)
Aaron Rouse (started 2 games)

Are they really taking those temporary starters into account? Cuz that's kinda dumb

[packers11]

Johnny Jolly ?
DeShawn Wynn? > He was starting before he got hurt...
Will Blackmon ? lol ... nevermind...

[the_idle_threat]

Per Tom Kowalski in the last 3 years (the Ted Thompson draft era) the Lions have drafted 11 players 4th round or later. The Packers have drafted 22 players 4th or beyond which has given them 6 starters to the Lions 0. One these 4th or laters is Mason Crosby.

Six of our starters were 4th round or beyond from TT drafts ?

hmmm

Poppinga
Coston (I'm assuming they count him)
Crosby


I can't think of the others


Well here's the list.

2007 - Green Bay Packers
Rd Sel # Player Position School

4 119 Allen Barbre G Missouri Southern State
5 157 David Clowney WR Virginia Tech
6 191 Korey Hall FB Boise State
6 192 Desmond Bishop LB California
6 193 Mason Crosby K Colorado
7 228 DeShawn Wynn RB Florida
7 243 Clark Harris TE Rutgers

2006 - Green Bay Packers
Rd Sel # Player Position School

4 104 Cory Rodgers WR Texas Christian
4 115 Will Blackmon CB Boston College
5 148 Ingle Martin QB Furman
5 165 Tony Moll G Nevada-Reno
6 183 Johnny Jolly DT Texas A&M
6 185 Tyrone Culver DB Fresno State
7 253 Dave Tollefson DE Northwest Missouri State

2005 - Green Bay Packers
Rd Sel # Player Position School

4 115 Marviel Underwood DB San Diego State
4 125 Brady Poppinga LB Brigham Young
5 143 Junius Coston C North Carolina A&T
5 167 Mike Hawkins DB Oklahoma
6 180 Mike Montgomery DT Texas A&M
6 195 Craig Bragg WR UCLA
7 245 Kurt Campbell CB Albany State (NY)
7 246 Will Whitticker G Michigan State


Jolly is one, probably.
Korey Hall
Tony Moll has started.
DeShawn Wynn started a little while.
Will Whitticker started for a while.

Probably not talking about "Neon" Hawkins or Corey Rodgers. :idea:

[MJZiggy]

Don't forget Special Teams

[Bretsky]

Don't forget Special Teams


Sure; so we have about 33 starters instead of the normal 22

[Bretsky]

Hall
Crosby
Jolly
Poppinga
Coston

all seem legit

If you want to include anybody who has started a game then I'm sure Detroit could add plenty of less than talented bodies to the equation as well

[MJZiggy]

Don't forget Special Teams


Sure; so we have about 33 starters instead of the normal 22

Not quite true because some of the ST starters also start on O or D.

The original stat said that Detroit had 0 starters to TT's 6 so Detroit apparently has no one to add.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Maybe Grant?

[BallHawk]

Maybe Grant?

Think they were only counting players drafted by TT himself.

[Patler]

Crosby, Hall, Poppinga, Jolly all legitimate current "starters".

Whitticker obviously was for a whole season, even if he isn't in GB now. He was the designated starter, not a replacement.
Wynn was the starter, until injured; but wouldn't be considered so now.
Moll started 10 games as a rookie (hard to believe, isn't it?) and 3 last year.
Coston, not really an injury substitute, but not a real legitimate starter yet either. More or less just "tried" as a starter.

Clearly 4 starters now, and 5 with Whitticker who were not injury replacements, but the individuals who were the designated starters at their positions. Moll, Coston and Wynn were more of the "replacement" types when they started.

[Tarlam!]

Any other forum out there claimng to be the best, forget it!

Got Patler?

[Gunakor]

Crosby, Hall, Poppinga, Jolly all legitimate current "starters".

Whitticker obviously was for a whole season, even if he isn't in GB now. He was the designated starter, not a replacement.
Wynn was the starter, until injured; but wouldn't be considered so now.
Moll started 10 games as a rookie (hard to believe, isn't it?) and 3 last year.
Coston, not really an injury substitute, but not a real legitimate starter yet either. More or less just "tried" as a starter.

Clearly 4 starters now, and 5 with Whitticker who were not injury replacements, but the individuals who were the designated starters at their positions. Moll, Coston and Wynn were more of the "replacement" types when they started.


What do you think the odds are that Justin Harrell beats out Johnny Jolly for the starting DT job opposite Ryan Pickett? Harrell is healthy now, and will be able to participate in all of the OTA's and all of the minicamp and training camp activities. If he can get back to being the beast he was during his junior year at Tennessee - the year before his injury - I don't see Jolly beating him out for the job. There's a reason Harrell went 16th overall. If his college career wasn't marred by injury, there's no doubt in my mind he'd have went top 10. I think if he can stay healthy he'll be able to win a starting job. So I don't know if I'd call Jolly a legitimate starter yet, just the guy who's listed atop the offseason depth chart, created before any competiton takes place. Don't get me wrong, I like Johnny Jolly. But I don't think he's better than a healthy Justin Harrell.

[red]

you got that right

its nice to know the most knowledgeable packer fan is a rat

nice stuff patler

[red]

Crosby, Hall, Poppinga, Jolly all legitimate current "starters".

Whitticker obviously was for a whole season, even if he isn't in GB now. He was the designated starter, not a replacement.
Wynn was the starter, until injured; but wouldn't be considered so now.
Moll started 10 games as a rookie (hard to believe, isn't it?) and 3 last year.
Coston, not really an injury substitute, but not a real legitimate starter yet either. More or less just "tried" as a starter.

Clearly 4 starters now, and 5 with Whitticker who were not injury replacements, but the individuals who were the designated starters at their positions. Moll, Coston and Wynn were more of the "replacement" types when they started.


What do you think the odds are that Justin Harrell beats out Johnny Jolly for the starting DT job opposite Ryan Pickett? Harrell is healthy now, and will be able to participate in all of the OTA's and all of the minicamp and training camp activities. If he can get back to being the beast he was during his junior year at Tennessee - the year before his injury - I don't see Jolly beating him out for the job. There's a reason Harrell went 16th overall. If his college career wasn't marred by injury, there's no doubt in my mind he'd have went top 10. I think if he can stay healthy he'll be able to win a starting job. So I don't know if I'd call Jolly a legitimate starter yet, just the guy who's listed atop the offseason depth chart, created before any competiton takes place. Don't get me wrong, I like Johnny Jolly. But I don't think he's better than a healthy Justin Harrell.

the problem i see is that theres a lot of things harrell has to get through before the season starts. and he really hasn't showed through his carrer that he can stay healthy that long. before his monster junior year i think he was also hurt his freshman and sophmore years. i'd give him a 25% chance of staying healthy through training camp and the preseason

and jolly is healthy again now too. he looked damn good last year before he got injured

[sheepshead]

Any other forum out there claimng to be the best, forget it!

Got Patler?

Here here Tarlem--great stuff!

[Bretsky]

Don't forget Special Teams


Sure; so we have about 33 starters instead of the normal 22

Not quite true because some of the ST starters also start on O or D.

The original stat said that Detroit had 0 starters to TT's 6 so Detroit apparently has no one to add.


Not true at all; because you have no idea if the article included special teams starters or not. Therefore we would not know who to add

[red]

Don't forget Special Teams


Sure; so we have about 33 starters instead of the normal 22

Not quite true because some of the ST starters also start on O or D.

The original stat said that Detroit had 0 starters to TT's 6 so Detroit apparently has no one to add.


Not true at all; because you have no idea if the article included special teams starters or not. Therefore we would not know who to add

just say what you really mean b

she's wrong because she's a she

[MJZiggy]

Did Detroit have any 4th round or beyond special teams starters? If so, they didn't count them, if not, they should have. Starters are starters even if they're short bus starters.

[Bretsky]

Don't forget Special Teams


Sure; so we have about 33 starters instead of the normal 22

Not quite true because some of the ST starters also start on O or D.

The original stat said that Detroit had 0 starters to TT's 6 so Detroit apparently has no one to add.


Not true at all; because you have no idea if the article included special teams starters or not. Therefore we would not know who to add

just say what you really mean b

she's wrong because she's a she


Red, she's are always right; key to a marriage. 95% of the disagreements are futile and worthless. 5% actually mean something. So to keep peace in every household, the dude's just make sure they get their way 5% of the time in the ones that matter :lol:

[Bretsky]

Did Detroit have any 4th round or beyond special teams starters? If so, they didn't count them, if not, they should have. Starters are starters even if they're short bus starters.

If you include special teams starters as being starters, then TT has more than the six the article states

Why are we even debating this ?

[MJZiggy]

Keep in mind, that 5% is a gift, baby!!

[Patler]

What do you think the odds are that Justin Harrell beats out Johnny Jolly for the starting DT job opposite Ryan Pickett? Harrell is healthy now, and will be able to participate in all of the OTA's and all of the minicamp and training camp activities. If he can get back to being the beast he was during his junior year at Tennessee - the year before his injury - I don't see Jolly beating him out for the job. There's a reason Harrell went 16th overall. If his college career wasn't marred by injury, there's no doubt in my mind he'd have went top 10. I think if he can stay healthy he'll be able to win a starting job. So I don't know if I'd call Jolly a legitimate starter yet, just the guy who's listed atop the offseason depth chart, created before any competiton takes place. Don't get me wrong, I like Johnny Jolly. But I don't think he's better than a healthy Justin Harrell.

Jolly is the starter until Harrell or someone else takes it away from him. Harrell was drafted to do that, I'm sure; but until he does he can't legitimately be considered the starter.

As far as that goes, you can also question if Poppinga will be the starter in 2008.

[woodbuck27]

Crosby, Hall, Poppinga, Jolly all legitimate current "starters".

Whitticker obviously was for a whole season, even if he isn't in GB now. He was the designated starter, not a replacement.
Wynn was the starter, until injured; but wouldn't be considered so now.
Moll started 10 games as a rookie (hard to believe, isn't it?) and 3 last year.
Coston, not really an injury substitute, but not a real legitimate starter yet either. More or less just "tried" as a starter.

Clearly 4 starters now, and 5 with Whitticker who were not injury replacements, but the individuals who were the designated starters at their positions. Moll, Coston and Wynn were more of the "replacement" types when they started.

THE END. :)

[HarveyWallbangers]

Who cares about semantics. The jist of the story was correct.

Green Bay has gotten this out of the last 3 drafts in round 4 or later.

Starting FB Korey Hall
Solid rookie K Mason Crosby
Return man Will Blackmon
Starting DT Johnny Jolly
Starting LB Brady Poppinga
Depth on the OL in Tony Moll and Junius Coston. I know Bretsky doesn't like them, but they haven't been horrible (unlike Will Whitticker).
Special teamer Desmond Mason
Traded a 6th for RB Ryan Grant
Not to mention guys like Mike Montgomery and Allen Barbre.

This is who Detroit has gotten:

CB AJ Davis - Not on roster
OG Manuel Ramirez - 0 starts, 1 game played as a rookie
LB Johnny Baldwin - Not on roster
CB Ramzee Robinson - 7 tackles
OT Jonathan Scott - 6 starts in 2 years
CB Alton McCann - Not on roster
OG Fred Matua - Not on roster
LB Anthony Cannon - 14 tackles in 2 years
QB Dan Orlovsky - 7 for 17 in 2 mopup games
DE Bill Swancutt - Not on roster
DE Jonathan Goddard - Not on roster
WR Marcus Maxwell - Not on roster

Outside of Jonathan Scott (and his 6 mediocre starts), the Lions have gotten virtually nothing from the last three drafts in rounds 4-7. When Moll and Coston have started, they've shown as much as Scott.

You could take this a step further, and look at contributions the teams got out of street FAs and undrafted rookies. Green Bay has added Donald Lee, Atari Bigby, Tramon Williams, Ruvell Martin, Daniel Muir, John Kuhn, Charlie Peprah. Not world beaters, but some of these guys have become starters, some have contributed in some way, and others have some potential. It's the difference between having a team with solid depth and being the Lions.

You may not like that Thompson doesn't go after UFAs, but let's not pretend that he hasn't found way more players from his late round picks, undrafted rookies, and street FAs than a vast majority of GMs.

[Bretsky]

Who cares about semantics. The jist of the story was correct.

Green Bay has gotten this out of the last 3 drafts in round 4 or later.

Starting FB Korey Hall
Solid rookie K Mason Crosby
Return man Will Blackmon
Starting DT Johnny Jolly
Starting LB Brady Poppinga
Depth on the OL in Tony Moll and Junius Coston. I know Bretsky doesn't like them, but they haven't been horrible (unlike Will Whitticker).
Special teamer Desmond Mason
Traded a 6th for RB Ryan Grant
Not to mention guys like Mike Montgomery and Allen Barbre.

This is who Detroit has gotten:

CB AJ Davis - Not on roster
OG Manuel Ramirez - 0 starts, 1 game played as a rookie
LB Johnny Baldwin - Not on roster
CB Ramzee Robinson - 7 tackles
OT Jonathan Scott - 6 starts in 2 years
CB Alton McCann - Not on roster
OG Fred Matua - Not on roster
LB Anthony Cannon - 14 tackles in 2 years
QB Dan Orlovsky - 7 for 17 in 2 mopup games
DE Bill Swancutt - Not on roster
DE Jonathan Goddard - Not on roster
WR Marcus Maxwell - Not on roster

Outside of Jonathan Scott (and his 6 mediocre starts), the Lions have gotten virtually nothing from the last three drafts in rounds 4-7. When Moll and Coston have started, they've shown as much as Scott.

You could take this a step further, and look at contributions the teams got out of street FAs and undrafted rookies. Green Bay has added Donald Lee, Atari Bigby, Tramon Williams, Ruvell Martin, Daniel Muir, John Kuhn, Charlie Peprah. Not world beaters, but some of these guys have become starters, some have contributed in some way, and others have some potential. It's the difference between having a team with solid depth and being the Lions.

You may not like that Thompson doesn't go after UFAs, but let's not pretend that he hasn't found way more players from his late round picks, undrafted rookies, and street FAs than a vast majority of GMs.


Doesn't "Desmond Mason" play for the Milwaukee Bucks ?
:lol:
Maybe you meant Desmond Bishop

[MJZiggy]

He doesn't care about the semantics.

[Patler]

Perhaps people misunderstood the purpose of my list. I was not disputing the gist of the article. Many were trying to identify who the writer considered as the six starters. I just kicked in my list to be considered. There most certainly are at least 5 (Poppinga, Jolly, Crosby, Hall & Whitticker) and I think you can argue that between Moll, who has started 13 of the 32 games he has been around for, Coston who was given a trial as a starter, or Wynn who was designated the starter, albeit only briefly, there could be a sixth, although I wouldn't necessarily do so.

I do not disagree with the thought behind the article at all.

[Guiness]

Crosby, Hall, Poppinga, Jolly all legitimate current "starters".

Whitticker obviously was for a whole season, even if he isn't in GB now. He was the designated starter, not a replacement.
Wynn was the starter, until injured; but wouldn't be considered so now.
Moll started 10 games as a rookie (hard to believe, isn't it?) and 3 last year.
Coston, not really an injury substitute, but not a real legitimate starter yet either. More or less just "tried" as a starter.

Clearly 4 starters now, and 5 with Whitticker who were not injury replacements, but the individuals who were the designated starters at their positions. Moll, Coston and Wynn were more of the "replacement" types when they started.

I know we're debating sematics here, but I don't think the article said 'current' starters. He's talking about guys 4th round or later that had some starts - I'm guessing by 'some' he means more than a couple, a la Wynn.

So whether you liked him much or not, Whittaker had what, 15 starts? And beat out two vets brought in to take the position? Not too bad for a 6th rounder. So I'd certainly have to consider him one. At this point, I think he's started more games than Hall?

Who the 6th is is debatable. I'd gues Moll and his dozen or so starts. Again, maybe not a regular starter, but more than just a spot guy. I don't think M Montgomery has ever had a start, has he?

As we've seen by the names, if we counted anyone who has even one 'start' GB's number would be 8 or 9 (can't remember where Tramon was obtained, and if he has a start. I seem to think he does) and Detroit has...1!

[HarveyWallbangers]

I do not disagree with the thought behind the article at all.

Since you seem to think I disagree with everything you write, my post was not directed at you.
:D

I get your drift, and when I don't reply to you, that means I agree with you. Most of the time, but not all, that is the case.

The gist of the article was that Green Bay has done a lot better than Detroit with their second day picks since Thompson took over. It's pretty clear that is true. Are they the corps of the team? No, but it's how you build depth.

[Patler]

I do not disagree with the thought behind the article at all.

Since you seem to think I disagree with everything you write, my post was not directed at you.


Well, that's nice, but my comment was not directed specifically at you, either. It was a combination of several that lead me to believe I may have been misunderstood. After all, I have been chastised in another thread for being unclear in my written statements. :D

[the_idle_threat]

:D

[Guiness]

I do not disagree with the thought behind the article at all.

Since you seem to think I disagree with everything you write, my post was not directed at you.


Well, that's nice, but my comment was not directed specifically at you, either. It was a combination of several that lead me to believe I may have been misunderstood. After all, I have been chastised in another thread for being unclear in my written statements. :D

Get a room guys!
:alc: :hug: :alc:

All this agreeing is going to make me puke - lol

[Joemailman]

Me too.http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/sick029.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[The Leaper]

Why we even discussing Millen's pathetic record in the same thread with Thompson?

Thompson would've drafted more starters after the 3rd round than Millen even if he was the one who only had 11 picks.

[Guiness]

Good point Leaper. We have so much to be proud of! Our GM is better than Detroit's! (problem is, ofcourse, there are 31 GM's in the league better than Detroit's)

A number like this one is certainly an interesting measure of the strength of the off-field members -
the scouts - finding and recommending the right guys,
TT - for making the selection
coaching staff - getting something out of low %age chances

I'd like to see how the rest of the team around the league did - although I think starts would not be a good measure, because it doesn't take into consideration special teams, nickel backs, or platoon guys who still see a lot of the field.