THIS is who ICE throws out of the country first?

[swede]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=739210

This is a shocking story. Governments are really bad tools for dispensing common sense.

Are Wisconsin's Democratic senators too busy defending the Jihadists to help out someone who has lived in the state, mostly legally, for the last twenty years?

The Awe's should have greased the wheels and donated a coupla thou to Doyle's campaign chest. They'd have been in like Flynn.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=739210

This is a shocking story. Governments are really bad tools for dispensing common sense.

Are Wisconsin's Democratic senators too busy defending the Jihadists to help out someone who has lived in the state, mostly legally, for the last twenty years?

The Awe's should have greased the wheels and donated a coupla thou to Doyle's campaign chest. They'd have been in like Flynn.

How have you made this a democratic issue.

Perhaps you'd like to address the repubs who have made ICE into a ridiculous unit.

This stuff goes on all the time.

In AZ we had an honor roll student with a schollie to AZ deported to mexico.

[Deputy Nutz]

Honestly it makes me sick, no common sense, she had no choice in coming here took no action herself to come here and she is being punished by the United States because of her parents mistake.

[Jimx29]

Illegal is illegal. You let one stay and then the rest will follow

[MadtownPacker]

Illegal is illegal. You let one stay and then the rest will followYou are right about the REST following, so let's take them ALL back. Maybe we can start with YOU and your whole family? Unless you are full blooded native American you are originally not from this land (Im sure you will claim you are part Cherokee or some bullshit). Using your logic means you better start packing your shit in plastic bags the way I see it cuz 400 years in North America aint shit and damn sure doesnt make any European castoffs owners of this land.

I wonder which one of these are your peeps from way back??

http://www.everyculture.com/multi/images/gema_02_img0136.jpg

http://www.goldenboughmusic.com/music/Immigrants/Irish%201900%20A.jpg

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/parks/liberty_state_park/Pictures/history/settlers.jpg

[texaspackerbacker]

First of all, let no one accuse me of kissing the hairy Mexican ass of the forum administrator, as I have a record of posting what I'm about to post in numerous other forums.

The problem of illegals, Mexican and otherwise, is greatly overrated. I'm NOT in favor of amnesty a.k.a. a pathway to legality/citizenship. Also, I AM in favor of a fence, combined with increased Border Patrol to take control of our border. I even am in favor of immediately sending back any illegals lawfully arrested for other crimes.

However, the great majority of Mexicans, as well as possibly an even greater majority of miscellaneous other illegals in this country are NOT evildoers. They are, in fact, people who are probably MORE appreciative of the wonderful American Way of life--both in terms of freedom and in terms of comforts/prosperity--than a lot of Americans whose roots are here for generations. I say that from first hand knowledge, being much closer to the "problem" here in Texas than folks up in Wisconsin. I have regular contact with illegals, and I will testify that most of them are decent normal people.

The best course of action from a strictly American point of view, other than taking control of the border inflow, would be to leave well enough alone. Don't make them legal, as then, they would be lost as a source of cheap labor--which for squeamish liberals, is still a much better way of life than they would have at home. And absolutely, don't round them up and ship them home, as not only would that take away the cheap labor supply, but it would turn mostly decent law-abiding (other than their illegal entry) people into fugitives and possibly dangerous insurgents.

And for those who worry about terrorists or whatever infiltrating illegals crossing the border, don't! What do you think would happen if a group of illegals found, for example, a Muslim terrorist in their midst? Well, you know Mexicans and their knives ....... Until the fence is in place, those illegals ARE our border security.

[BallHawk]

Tex's post makes a good amount of sense.

I'd agree that most illegals are good people. I'm just as close to the problem down here in Florida.

[pacfan]

Welcome back Tex, I sure did miss you.

[texaspackerbacker]

Welcome back Tex, I sure did miss you.

Thanks, but I've been back for about 3 weeks now.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm NOT in favor of amnesty a.k.a. a pathway to legality/citizenship.

then to hell with you. all of our ancestors came here to work and have a decent life. How fucking anal retentive to block new people.

our immigration is primarily fucked because WE DO NOT OFFER LEGAL IMMIGRATION!!! Yes, I know we allow a few people to trickle in, but the numbers are only a small percentage of the number needed for the labor market.

the sickest idea are the "guest worker" solutions. Ya, come here and live & work, but no vote for you. A dream plan for moneyed elites benefiting from 3rd class serfs.

[texaspackerbacker]

WHY is that a sick idea? The illegals are clearly better off than they were at home--if not, they wouldn't be here. And just as clearly, they are beneficial--the great majority of them--to us Americans. I call that a win/win situation, NOT a sick idea.

And as for LEGAL immigration, that certainly DOES exist for Mexicans, just as it does for other nationalities, in a variety of ways--marriage, and children and parents with no waiting list, siblings with a waiting list. Also, there are education visas, fiancee visas, professional visas, etc. Leave well enough alone!

[Deputy Nutz]

WHY is that a sick idea? The illegals are clearly better off than they were at home--if not, they wouldn't be here. And just as clearly, they are beneficial--the great majority of them--to us Americans. I call that a win/win situation, NOT a sick idea.

And as for LEGAL immigration, that certainly DOES exist for Mexicans, just as it does for other nationalities, in a variety of ways--marriage, and children and parents with no waiting list, siblings with a waiting list. Also, there are education visas, fiancee visas, professional visas, etc. Leave well enough alone!

Damn, your right.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And as for LEGAL immigration, that certainly DOES exist for Mexicans, just as it does for other nationalities, in a variety of ways--marriage, and children and parents with no waiting list, siblings with a waiting list. Also, there are education visas, fiancee visas, professional visas, etc. Leave well enough alone!

What bullshit. The NUMBERS of legal immigrants are about 5% to 10% of realistic number that are needed and can be easily absorbed.

You are just happy exploiting a giant population of vulnerable, second class non-citizens. Hey, it's a beautiful setup!

[pacfan]

Welcome back Tex, I sure did miss you.

Thanks, but I've been back for about 3 weeks now.

I don't post like I used too, must have missed it. All we need now is Lamboo, Greenday, TH87, and we can have a party.

[texaspackerbacker]

I don't know where they ended up--SportsBubbler or otherwise. I'd like to get them here too.

[GoPackGo]

The problem of illegals, Mexican and otherwise, is greatly overrated. I'm NOT in favor of amnesty a.k.a. a pathway to legality/citizenship. Also, I AM in favor of a fence, combined with increased Border Patrol to take control of our border. I even am in favor of immediately sending back any illegals lawfully arrested for other crimes.

However, the great majority of Mexicans, as well as possibly an even greater majority of miscellaneous other illegals in this country are NOT evildoers. They are, in fact, people who are probably MORE appreciative of the wonderful American Way of life--both in terms of freedom and in terms of comforts/prosperity--than a lot of Americans whose roots are here for generations. I say that from first hand knowledge, being much closer to the "problem" here in Texas than folks up in Wisconsin. I have regular contact with illegals, and I will testify that most of them are decent normal people.

The best course of action from a strictly American point of view, other than taking control of the border inflow, would be to leave well enough alone. Don't make them legal, as then, they would be lost as a source of cheap labor--which for squeamish liberals, is still a much better way of life than they would have at home. And absolutely, don't round them up and ship them home, as not only would that take away the cheap labor supply, but it would turn mostly decent law-abiding (other than their illegal entry) people into fugitives and possibly dangerous insurgents.

And for those who worry about terrorists or whatever infiltrating illegals crossing the border, don't! What do you think would happen if a group of illegals found, for example, a Muslim terrorist in their midst? Well, you know Mexicans and their knives ....... Until the fence is in place, those illegals ARE our border security.

I think this is a really great post Texas.
I do have a couple of problems with it though.
What about the illegal that is driving on the road and gets into an accident with property damage and/or injuries? if you have liability only insurance I guess you are SOL when your car gets totaled? What if the illegal gets injured? They need to get medical care but who pays for it? I live in Phoenix so like you I do have contact with immigrants. I know there are alot of good ones, but there are alot of repeat criminals too.
Saying that we can trust the mexicans as our border security to stop muslims is irresponsible.
How can you trust John McCain to fix the border situation? He's been elected senator in Arizona four times. I have never heard of him speaking strongly on this issue and I haven't seen him do anything about the problem here. I have a big problem with that.

[BallHawk]

I don't know where they ended up--SportsBubbler or otherwise. I'd like to get them here too.

Man, SportsBubbler is an absolute joke. That site is just so horribly run it's funny.

[texaspackerbacker]

GPG, agreed, those things could be a problem. However, wouldn't you agree that those things could just as well occur with uninsured people other than illegals?

I only brought up the example of illegals dealing with a terrorist infiltrator to point out which side I believe these illegals are on. I really don't think that method of terrorist entry is very likely. Just the same, it does validate the need for a fence as part of a comprehensive means of controlling the border--which brings us to McCain.

He is committed to completing the fence, etc. in a timely way. The guy has a longstanding reputation for straight talk. I know, I know, he's a politician with his mouth moving. But the chances of his finishing the job are a helluva lot better than the alternatives.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He is committed to completing the fence, etc. in a timely way.

this border fence will NEVER be built for a variety of reasons. People who study problem know that it is money poured down the drain. Smugglers would get illegals in the country even with a fence. Politicians keep talking about this fence because it sounds like appealling, simple fix. They are pandering.

The first step to deal with illegal imigration is to have a national identity card. You can't begin to deal with illegals when it is easy to forge identity.

[Kiwon]

Back to the issue....

If the status of these two doesn't change, I hope that ICE at least would allow the UWM student to finish her education.

Tough situation..........

[Gunakor]

Back to the issue....

If the status of these two doesn't change, I hope that ICE at least would allow the UWM student to finish her education.

Tough situation..........


They would be morally justified in allowing her to finish her education, but it probably won't happen. Today's America seems more interested in the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. Immigration laws were not created to keep people like Tope Awe out of the country. She was raised as an American, brought up with American values and abides by American law. If she has a job then she is likely paying American taxes too. From a cultural and lifestyle standpoint she's just as American as the rest of us. She is not a criminal, yet she is being treated like one. The least our government could do is allow her the ability to go through the legal process of becoming an American citizen rather than just say "You are being deported" and fly her out of the country.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

[Deputy Nutz]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

Why you bringing up your sexual peccadilloes into a discussion on immigration?

[Deputy Nutz]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

Why you bringing up your sexual peccadilloes into a discussion on immigration?

I was talking politics, sometimes you can be so immature.

[Gunakor]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.


A conservative mind would argue that illegal is illegal and by the letter of the law she is in violation of immigration laws and must be deported. A sensible mind would argue that she is no threat to America or its citizens or its way of life - a potential asset as a matter of fact - and use thier better judgement in determining whether she can stay or has to leave. I would hope that no liberal activist judge would need to intercede to keep her here. The Reps that made the call to deport her should have considered threat on thier own. They shouldn't need someone else to show them that this girl is of no threat to that which ICE is supposed to protect.

Sure, this makes perfect sense under the letter of the law. But the law was not created to rid the country of tax paying, law abiding students. It was created to get rid of delinquents, criminals, enemies of the United States. Tope Awe exemplifies American values, so her deportation makes no sense under the SPIRIT of the law. I know, that would require a little bit of judgement. But this isn't a marginal issue at all - she's absolutely, 100% sure about this, absolutely no threat to America should they allow her to go through the legal immigration process to become an American citizen.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

Why you bringing up your sexual peccadilloes into a discussion on immigration?

I was talking politics, sometimes you can be so immature.

I knew what you were referring too..hence the joke since the post wasn't directed at you.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.


A conservative mind would argue that illegal is illegal and by the letter of the law she is in violation of immigration laws and must be deported. A sensible mind would argue that she is no threat to America or its citizens or its way of life - a potential asset as a matter of fact - and use thier better judgement in determining whether she can stay or has to leave. I would hope that no liberal activist judge would need to intercede to keep her here. The Reps that made the call to deport her should have considered threat on thier own. They shouldn't need someone else to show them that this girl is of no threat to that which ICE is supposed to protect.

Sure, this makes perfect sense under the letter of the law. But the law was not created to rid the country of tax paying, law abiding students. It was created to get rid of delinquents, criminals, enemies of the United States. Tope Awe exemplifies American values, so her deportation makes no sense under the SPIRIT of the law. I know, that would require a little bit of judgement. But this isn't a marginal issue at all - she's absolutely, 100% sure about this, absolutely no threat to America should they allow her to go through the legal immigration process to become an American citizen.

Gunakor..i totally agree. But, that was the point. We now find conservatives that are shocked and would like this person to remain.

Conservatives are monolothic..at least the human ones..can't speak about Tex.

The point is that when it suits them they want the spirit, not the letter. This is a case of that.

I have respect for Numb who at least posts..the law is the law. That is a defensible position. I have no respect for those who decry liberal actavist judges and then cry about trajedies like this young girl.

[Gunakor]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.


A conservative mind would argue that illegal is illegal and by the letter of the law she is in violation of immigration laws and must be deported. A sensible mind would argue that she is no threat to America or its citizens or its way of life - a potential asset as a matter of fact - and use thier better judgement in determining whether she can stay or has to leave. I would hope that no liberal activist judge would need to intercede to keep her here. The Reps that made the call to deport her should have considered threat on thier own. They shouldn't need someone else to show them that this girl is of no threat to that which ICE is supposed to protect.

Sure, this makes perfect sense under the letter of the law. But the law was not created to rid the country of tax paying, law abiding students. It was created to get rid of delinquents, criminals, enemies of the United States. Tope Awe exemplifies American values, so her deportation makes no sense under the SPIRIT of the law. I know, that would require a little bit of judgement. But this isn't a marginal issue at all - she's absolutely, 100% sure about this, absolutely no threat to America should they allow her to go through the legal immigration process to become an American citizen.

Gunakor..i totally agree. But, that was the point. We now find conservatives that are shocked and would like this person to remain.

Conservatives are monolothic..at least the human ones..can't speak about Tex.

The point is that when it suits them they want the spirit, not the letter. This is a case of that.

I have respect for Numb who at least posts..the law is the law. That is a defensible position. I have no respect for those who decry liberal actavist judges and then cry about trajedies like this young girl.

My apologies then for misinterpreting what you said.

[swede]

Gunakor..i totally agree. But, that was the point. We now find conservatives that are shocked and would like this person to remain.

Conservatives are monolothic..at least the human ones..can't speak about Tex.

The point is that when it suits them they want the spirit, not the letter. This is a case of that.

I have respect for Numb who at least posts..the law is the law. That is a defensible position. I have no respect for those who decry liberal actavist judges and then cry about trajedies like this young girl.

My point, in the comment on the original post, is to question the inactivity of our state's senators. Taking sides in this case would seem to be the right thing to do. Activist judges are welcome to help out here as well. So far we haven't heard from them either.

One can easily say that the writing or enforcement of immigration law is a conservative thing, and not a liberal thing. And come to think of it, I wish you would. Immigration issues are evolving, and so the law must evolve. Harlan is fond of saying a fence will not help keep out illegal immigrants. In a way he is right. It will keep out the illegal immigrants that create a nuisance for border communities. It won't help with overstayed visas I suppose, a more typical entree for an illegal.

I really do wonder at the underlying issue with ICE that makes their officers act like pissed-off DMV clerks instead of professionals with some discretion in the actions they take.

I will now predict the responses.

First the Crackhead...got it. That was easy.

Now Blue Dawg...always a little harder...okay there it is.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Gunakor..i totally agree. But, that was the point. We now find conservatives that are shocked and would like this person to remain.

Conservatives are monolothic..at least the human ones..can't speak about Tex.

The point is that when it suits them they want the spirit, not the letter. This is a case of that.

I have respect for Numb who at least posts..the law is the law. That is a defensible position. I have no respect for those who decry liberal actavist judges and then cry about trajedies like this young girl.

My point, in the comment on the original post, is to question the inactivity of our state's senators. Taking sides in this case would seem to be the right thing to do. Activist judges are welcome to help out here as well. So far we haven't heard from them either.

One can easily say that the writing or enforcement of immigration law is a conservative thing, and not a liberal thing. And come to think of it, I wish you would. Immigration issues are evolving, and so the law must evolve. Harlan is fond of saying a fence will not help keep out illegal immigrants. In a way he is right. It will keep out the illegal immigrants that create a nuisance for border communities. It won't help with overstayed visas I suppose, a more typical entree for an illegal.

I really do wonder at the underlying issue with ICE that makes their officers act like pissed-off DMV clerks instead of professionals with some discretion in the actions they take.

I will now predict the responses.

First the Crackhead...got it. That was easy.

Now Blue Dawg...always a little harder...okay there it is.

Unfortunately for you, you are as good at prognosticating as you think.

Tyrone lives in a border state and deals with these sad stories weekly. While it may come as a surprise to you..it is a weekly occurence in AZ.

Wonder: Very simple. Petty beaurocrats. They aren't paid to think.

Perhaps you should be wondering about a society that takes delight in rounding up law abiding citizens (granted, here illegally) and deporting them. Yet, doesn't punish businesses that knowling hire and exploit illegals..well, they are coming after those businesses here in AZ.

Perhaps you should be wondering about all the tough rhetoric from the conservatives about fences, deportation, etc...when polls clearly show that americans favor a path to citizenship.

As for the judges, etc...i can't say why in Wisco they act like they do. Here, it is because they will face hordes of neo nazi's that will picket, become enmeshed in white power fights...or they realize the futility of going against the Bush led fed gov't. How is a state senator going to have any success against a federal law/agency?

Pick your poison.

[texaspackerbacker]

He is committed to completing the fence, etc. in a timely way.

this border fence will NEVER be built for a variety of reasons. People who study problem know that it is money poured down the drain. Smugglers would get illegals in the country even with a fence. Politicians keep talking about this fence because it sounds like appealling, simple fix. They are pandering.

The first step to deal with illegal imigration is to have a national identity card. You can't begin to deal with illegals when it is easy to forge identity.

Sieg Heil, Harlan!

A national ID card? You've got to be kidding. Talk about the potential for abuse, big brotherism, intrusive government in the worst way. I believe the expression, "throwing out the baby with the bath water" fits the situation.

First of all, a fence in conjunction with other methods IS FEASIBLE. The one in the San Diego area works very well. The plan most fence supporters have is not to cover the whole 1,700 or whatever miles it is from the Pacific to the Gulf, but to use natural barriers, human coverage--the Border Patrol, along with technology--air and ground surveillance, etc. That's not saying that no smugglers would ever get people in, but it would take something extraordinary--by ship or plane, something like that. Thus, the number would be reduced to practically nothing.

[Deputy Nutz]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

Why you bringing up your sexual peccadilloes into a discussion on immigration?

I was talking politics, sometimes you can be so immature.

I knew what you were referring too..hence the joke since the post wasn't directed at you.

Gee, sometimes you take things so serious.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

Why you bringing up your sexual peccadilloes into a discussion on immigration?

I was talking politics, sometimes you can be so immature.


I knew what you were referring too..hence the joke since the post wasn't directed at you.

Gee, sometimes you take things so serious.


Prolly the partial effect.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The first step to deal with illegal imigration is to have a national identity card. You can't begin to deal with illegals when it is easy to forge identity.

Sieg Heil, Harlan!

A national ID card? You've got to be kidding. Talk about the potential for abuse, big brotherism, intrusive government in the worst way.

We already have a patchwork of identification that amounts to a National ID - social security #, drivers license #. You can't get a job without giving over you SSN, that's our effective national ID #.

The NID just makes it far harder to forge documents, which currently is easy as pie.

How can one decide who is illegal without first knowing whether a person's identity is legitimate?

I would insist that all people in the U.S. be given such acard, whether they are here legally or not. Then we can actually have a policy, collect taxes from EVERYBODY.

[Harlan Huckleby]

First of all, a fence in conjunction with other methods IS FEASIBLE. The one in the San Diego area works very well. The plan most fence supporters have is not to cover the whole 1,700 or whatever miles it is from the Pacific to the Gulf, but to use natural barriers, human coverage--the Border Patrol, along with technology--air and ground surveillance, etc. That's not saying that no smugglers would ever get people in, but it would take something extraordinary--by ship or plane, something like that. Thus, the number would be reduced to practically nothing.

this is going to be far leakier than you imagine. People are gonna get here - how have our efforts to stop drug smuggling worked out? It will just drive-up fees & opportunities for coyotes.

The answer is to have a SANE policy on this side of the border, recognize that we need a LARGE number of new immigrants, and then have strict hiring enforcement with national ID card as necessary tool.

You can't simply say "enforce the law" when the law does not reflect reality.

[texaspackerbacker]

First of all, Harlan, just driving up the price alone would considerably lessen the number. Secondly, the fence/plus scenario would also do wonders for drug traffic prevention from that direction. And third, and most of all, you are wrong about the ineffectiveness of it. How exactly are they going to defeat such a system--other than flying over it or going way out into the Gulf or Pacific by boat--both of which should be fairly easy to catch also?

And on the national ID thing, we have all seen the old movies where the SS or whoever stops people indiscriminantly asking for "papers". That's just not something Americans should be subjected to.

And the idea you are suggesting--basically reward the illegals here with legality--a.k.a. amnesty, I have to ask WHY? You in effect disrespect/punish all those who have gotten here legally by doing that, AND, you take away the primary benefit to Americans of having them here--the cheap labor supply, as there would be little or no incentive to work cheap if they were legal. Oh, I know, you get all outraged about taking advantage of them like that, but the fact is, they would be getting away with breaking the law, and the other fact is, they would be far better off working for sub-minimum wages here than they would be at home.

[Harlan Huckleby]

How exactly are they going to defeat such a system--other than flying over it or going way out into the Gulf or Pacific by boat--both of which should be fairly easy to catch also?

OK, how about by driving a semi-truck across the border. They aren't going to inspect every truck, they can't unpack trucks at the border, and people can be hidden in back of packed truck.
How about bribing local officials? Huge numbers could flow.
How about fake IDs? Peoople can enter "legally" because currently it is easy to get fake identity.
What about walking across Canadian border? Doh! Smugglers will get people in.

go ahead and build your fence, I don't care. It won't actually hurt anything, other than drain resources. But the proof is in the pudding: politicians have not acted on it for 20 years because their more sophisticated analysis indicates that it is a loser idea.

There are FAR better ways to control illegals. You make it unattractive to be here illegally.


And on the national ID thing, we have all seen the old movies where the SS or whoever stops people indiscriminantly asking for "papers". That's just not something Americans should be subjected to.

This is just stupid. Why aren't you upset about drivers licenses? Cops often ask to see those. And do you fear social security numbers? Your credit rating, your taxes, everything is tied to your SSN. Big brother can already track you.
A national ID card changes NOTHING conceptually. We already require ID. The only change is that we'll have ID that will be very difficult to forge. You like people being wrecked by idenity theft? Do you like that drivers licenses, real or fake, are easy to get?


And the idea you are suggesting--basically reward the illegals here with legality--a.k.a. amnesty, I have to ask WHY? You in effect disrespect/punish all those who have gotten here legally by doing that,.

The vast majority of illegals are here because there is a demand for their services. If we had a realistic level of LEGAL immigration, then being "illegal" might mean something. But fact is we admit a few 100K legally, and then use tens of millions of illegals.
These individuals are doing nothing wrong. They are just trying to survive. They are breaking the rules of a system that is crooked.

I don't know what you mean by punishing the legal ones, that's trivial. But your willingness to exploit and mistreat millions of good people makes a mockery of your sudden conversion to fairness.


they would be far better off working for sub-minimum wages here than they would be at home.

I am violently opposed to building a feudal system of full citizens exploiting a lower class of serfs. I don't give a fuck what horrible conditions they come from, it is immoral to exploit their desperation.

This is fucking America. There is nothing more fundamental to our nation than the dignity and worth of every human. We should allow many mexicans into the country legally, exactly as many as we need, and they should be allowed a process to become citizens. It appears to me that we currently don't have an excess of labor, so the numbers in country now are close to reasonable.

People who want to have a permament underclass of 20 million Mexican serfs with no legal protections, treated like beasts of burden are racists. To a person, no exception.

[swede]

I was wrong.

Crackhead had a post that made some sense to me and made some good points. Although the 'Polls show Americans prefer a pathway to citizenship" thing is just an example of misleading polling. Americans are also in favor of being nice to kitties.

Blue Dawg wouldn't respond at all which was clever even by his devious standards. And his dialogue with the Texster had one incontravertible point that hit me in the forehead like a diamond crystal: addressing policies and economic factors that attract illegals would be more effective than a fence.

Soo...no more free school, no more free medical care, and throw employers of illegals into jail.

But you see the problem. If we do something we will end up being mean and unfair to many worthy people who would make good citizens.

If we do nothing we'll be Los Estados Unidos by 2085 and we'll be forced to sneak our senior citizens across the border into Canada in order to get them free Canadian health care and emergency rations of Purina Seal Chow and a six pack of Molson.

[texaspackerbacker]

Well, I will start out with the bottom line first. I really don't consider this whole discussion to be very high up on the hierarchy of issues. It's actually kind of boring in the grand scheme of things.

You make a couple of valid points, Harlan, about how a fence could be defeated. Requiring a passport at the Mexican border would overcome the phony ID thing. Requiring unloading at secure terminals near the border and reloading to go farther would take care of the truck thing. That would cost a lot more for the goods, but that is as much a good thing as bad anyway--making things produced south of the border less competitive with American-made.

What you alluded to, Harlan, and Swede went into more detail on would probably be effective over time. The problem is, it would also harm illegals already here. Do we really want untreated possibly contagious illegals running around? Do we really want a bunch of truants who aren't allowed in school running around making trouble? The way education has deteriorated in our schools, they are at least as much for keeping kids off the street as for teaching them. Thank you liberals for that. And punishing employers? Good normal American business people just trying to make a buck by providing a product or service at a lower price with cheaper labor? Myself, I would rather have the illegals working than that.

Which brings me to the only really interesting point in this whole boring discussion: Harlan, I still really don't see why you are getting so indignant about "taking advantage" of these people--who almost unanimously don't even mind being "taken advantage" of. As I said, if they didn't like the situation--sub-minimum wage jobs, they would either go home or never come. As for the morality of it, how is it immoral to have people making 5 or 10 times what they could be making in Mexico, just because they still make maybe half or a third what Americans would work for? Take that away and they are left with third world depravity at home--but you get to feel all moral about it.

This is the same mentality that makes liberals want to raise the minimum wage--never mind that they are pricing a lot of low wage workers out of a job because the employers can afford to pay the higher amount.

It's also the mentality that led northern white boat-rocking civil rights workers to go down south a generation ago and basically stir up trouble among blacks who were content with their life by telling them how bad off they were. Arguably the result in a bunch of different ways has been more harm than good. Oh shame on me for being so un-p.c.--now I suppose I'll be called racist.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It's also the mentality that led northern white boat-rocking civil rights workers to go down south a generation ago and basically stir up trouble among blacks who were content with their life by telling them how bad off they were. Arguably the result in a bunch of different ways has been more harm than good. Oh shame on me for being so un-p.c.--now I suppose I'll be called racist.

Blacks were content. My god, the whoppers you tell.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Soo...no more free school, no more free medical care, and throw employers of illegals into jail.

But you see the problem. If we do something we will end up being mean and unfair to many worthy people who would make good citizens.


If we truly don't want the 20 million mexicans and central Americans here, we could get them out and keep them out. It wouldn't even be that difficult, despite widespread claims to contrary. The hold up is a lack of consensus, and for good reason.

I want them here, it is pretty obvious that they are net contributors. And there aren't too many of them, although there is definitely a threat of being overwhelmed. We need to be able to control flow.

Unless your position on immigration is that we should have open borders, we NEED a national ID card to implement ANY policy.

[falco]

It's also the mentality that led northern white boat-rocking civil rights workers to go down south a generation ago and basically stir up trouble among blacks who were content with their life by telling them how bad off they were. Arguably the result in a bunch of different ways has been more harm than good. Oh shame on me for being so un-p.c.--now I suppose I'll be called racist.

gee, ya think? :roll:

[texaspackerbacker]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

[Partial]

Dude, Tyrone reeks of the 35 year old that was spoiled as a kid and grew up in the rich neighborhood. He's as white as snow. Either the rapper or the frozen composition. He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

[falco]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

TPB, I understand what you're trying to say - I detest people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for their tactics, racism, and corruption. I would agree there are elements in the Democratic party that abuse minorities. I am not a fan of either political party.

But to imply on any level that Civil Rights movement of the 50s and 60s was not one of the greatest transformation in our nation is wrong on every level. There is a big difference between "lamenting" the "attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations" and wanting to turn back the hands of time to that era.

[texaspackerbacker]

Falco, I'm comparing the blues and Nat King Cole to hip hop and gangsta rap.

I'm comparing Willie Mays and Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds, Randy Moss, and a bunch of others.

I'm comparing a peaceful lifestyle of decency, morality, and Christian values to Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, etc.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Falco, I'm comparing the blues and Nat King Cole to hip hop and gangsta rap.

I'm comparing Willie Mays and Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds, Randy Moss, and a bunch of others.

I'm comparing a peaceful lifestyle of decency, morality, and Christian values to Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, etc.

Draw your own conclusions.

Jesse Jackson, wright and other religious leaders aren't part of the hip hop nation.

however, you are basically saying that any black agitator is bad.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

WHile there are older black folks who definitely lament the current hip hop culture..and the violence of today's society....they aren't lamenting a return to pre civil rights america.


You pose it as an either or...as if you can't have one without the other.

I suppose you and other older whites are just as unhappy since Elvis started with his coon music and got all the white kids riled up.

[GoPackGo]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

My favorite part is he is now calling you my brother.

I'll be expecting a sizeable Xmas this year, my brotha!!

[texaspackerbacker]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

WHile there are older black folks who definitely lament the current hip hop culture..and the violence of today's society....they aren't lamenting a return to pre civil rights america.


You pose it as an either or...as if you can't have one without the other.

I suppose you and other older whites are just as unhappy since Elvis started with his coon music and got all the white kids riled up.

You know the thing I regret most about getting old? I have the same ideas I've always had, but now they are perceived as the ideas of the old. Back in the days when people used YOUR term, "coon", black music was pretty nice. IMO, it has turned to crap right along with most white music in the same time frame. That, however, is mere opinion--personal preference.

The DEVASTATION to both black and white cultures is NOT mere opinion. It is solid fact--from homicides down to much less serious negative aspects. And WHO is to blame? It is those who have promoted the whole movement--LIBERALS--chiefly white liberals, but the black "overseers of the LIBERAL plantation" like Jesse Jackson are to blame also.

The music is just symbolic--a fairly trivial factor. It is the horrible transformation of attitudes and behavior that is the real issue. Can you HONESTLY say that those are not horrendously worse for blacks compared to a generation or two ago--with a major spillover into white culture, attitude, and behavior too?

And it all goes back to LIBERAL cultural boat-rockers--in civil rights, but certainly not limited to the civil rights arena--basically trying to reshape America into a worse place.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

WHile there are older black folks who definitely lament the current hip hop culture..and the violence of today's society....they aren't lamenting a return to pre civil rights america.


You pose it as an either or...as if you can't have one without the other.

I suppose you and other older whites are just as unhappy since Elvis started with his coon music and got all the white kids riled up.

You know the thing I regret most about getting old? I have the same ideas I've always had, but now they are perceived as the ideas of the old. Back in the days when people used YOUR term, "coon", black music was pretty nice. IMO, it has turned to crap right along with most white music in the same time frame. That, however, is mere opinion--personal preference.

The DEVASTATION to both black and white cultures is NOT mere opinion. It is solid fact--from homicides down to much less serious negative aspects. And WHO is to blame? It is those who have promoted the whole movement--LIBERALS--chiefly white liberals, but the black "overseers of the LIBERAL plantation" like Jesse Jackson are to blame also.

The music is just symbolic--a fairly trivial factor. It is the horrible transformation of attitudes and behavior that is the real issue. Can you HONESTLY say that those are not horrendously worse for blacks compared to a generation or two ago--with a major spillover into white culture, attitude, and behavior too?

And it all goes back to LIBERAL cultural boat-rockers--in civil rights, but certainly not limited to the civil rights arena--basically trying to reshape America into a worse place.

I agree. Let's all go back to a time when blacks weren't uppity and knew their place, Jews knew which neighborhoods to live in..and were restricted in the amount that could attend law/med school, women couldn't vote, women only worked as secretaries and school teachers (or hookers), blacks couldn't ride in the front of buses, drink from OUR water fountains, stay at our hotels.

[hoosier]

You know the thing I regret most about getting old? I have the same ideas I've always had, but now they are perceived as the ideas of the old. Back in the days when people used YOUR term, "coon", black music was pretty nice. IMO, it has turned to crap right along with most white music in the same time frame. That, however, is mere opinion--personal preference.

The DEVASTATION to both black and white cultures is NOT mere opinion. It is solid fact--from homicides down to much less serious negative aspects. And WHO is to blame? It is those who have promoted the whole movement--LIBERALS--chiefly white liberals, but the black "overseers of the LIBERAL plantation" like Jesse Jackson are to blame also.

The music is just symbolic--a fairly trivial factor. It is the horrible transformation of attitudes and behavior that is the real issue. Can you HONESTLY say that those are not horrendously worse for blacks compared to a generation or two ago--with a major spillover into white culture, attitude, and behavior too?

And it all goes back to LIBERAL cultural boat-rockers--in civil rights, but certainly not limited to the civil rights arena--basically trying to reshape America into a worse place.

Can you provide some kind of objective measure of this "devastation" that you're talking about? I'm suspicious by nature of everyone who comes preaching doom and gloom, the world's-going-to-hell scenarios, since if you read and know cultural history you'll know that things have been going down hill in the world damn well ever since the time of Plato. But let's look at US Justice Dept statistics on violent crime over the past half century: murder rates went from 4.5 per 100,000 in 1960 to a high of 10 per 100,000 in 1980, and then back down to 6 per 100,000 in 2005. Sounds more like fluctuation than apocalypse to me. The per capita number of black murders has been declining for the last 15 years. How exactly does these "solid facts" reflect "devastation"?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You know the thing I regret most about getting old? I have the same ideas I've always had, but now they are perceived as the ideas of the old. Back in the days when people used YOUR term, "coon", black music was pretty nice. IMO, it has turned to crap right along with most white music in the same time frame. That, however, is mere opinion--personal preference.

The DEVASTATION to both black and white cultures is NOT mere opinion. It is solid fact--from homicides down to much less serious negative aspects. And WHO is to blame? It is those who have promoted the whole movement--LIBERALS--chiefly white liberals, but the black "overseers of the LIBERAL plantation" like Jesse Jackson are to blame also.

The music is just symbolic--a fairly trivial factor. It is the horrible transformation of attitudes and behavior that is the real issue. Can you HONESTLY say that those are not horrendously worse for blacks compared to a generation or two ago--with a major spillover into white culture, attitude, and behavior too?

And it all goes back to LIBERAL cultural boat-rockers--in civil rights, but certainly not limited to the civil rights arena--basically trying to reshape America into a worse place.

Can you provide some kind of objective measure of this "devastation" that you're talking about? I'm suspicious by nature of everyone who comes preaching doom and gloom, the world's-going-to-hell scenarios, since if you read and know cultural history you'll know that things have been going down hill in the world damn well ever since the time of Plato. But let's look at US Justice Dept statistics on violent crime over the past half century: murder rates went from 4.5 per 100,000 in 1960 to a high of 10 per 100,000 in 1980, and then back down to 6 per 100,000 in 2005. Sounds more like fluctuation than apocalypse to me. The per capita number of black murders has been declining for the last 15 years. How exactly does these "solid facts" reflect "devastation"?

Conservative doom and gloom is real.

Liberal gloom and doom...global warming is just outright lies.

"Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts dont do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around"

[GoPackGo]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

My favorite part is he is now calling you my brother.

I'll be expecting a sizeable Xmas this year, my brotha!!

The best Xmas gift anyone on this forum could get is a ninja attack on Partial at the Packerrats.com posters game in which all of Partials fingers are broken and he's left wearing his nose as an earring.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

My favorite part is he is now calling you my brother.

I'll be expecting a sizeable Xmas this year, my brotha!!

The best Xmas gift anyone on this forum could get is a ninja attack on Partial at the Packerrats.com posters game in which all of Partials fingers are broken and he's left wearing his nose as an earring.

Sounds good. I'll take that on the third night of Hanukkah instead of socks and underwear!!

[GoPackGo]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

My favorite part is he is now calling you my brother.

I'll be expecting a sizeable Xmas this year, my brotha!!

The best Xmas gift anyone on this forum could get is a ninja attack on Partial at the Packerrats.com posters game in which all of Partials fingers are broken and he's left wearing his nose as an earring.

Sounds good. I'll take that on the third night of Hanukkah instead of socks and underwear!!

Peace unto you brotha tyrone

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

My favorite part is he is now calling you my brother.

I'll be expecting a sizeable Xmas this year, my brotha!!

The best Xmas gift anyone on this forum could get is a ninja attack on Partial at the Packerrats.com posters game in which all of Partials fingers are broken and he's left wearing his nose as an earring.

Sounds good. I'll take that on the third night of Hanukkah instead of socks and underwear!!

Peace unto you brotha tyrone

Ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano keyboard, oh lord, why dont we?

[hoosier]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

My favorite part is he is now calling you my brother.

I'll be expecting a sizeable Xmas this year, my brotha!!

The best Xmas gift anyone on this forum could get is a ninja attack on Partial at the Packerrats.com posters game in which all of Partials fingers are broken and he's left wearing his nose as an earring.

Sounds good. I'll take that on the third night of Hanukkah instead of socks and underwear!!

You need to start thinking more immediately. Time to invent an Eleventh Plague.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.

I tell everyone how inferior and dumb they are? I boast how wonderful I am?
:roll:
I rarely debate with anyone.

My favorite part is he is now calling you my brother.

I'll be expecting a sizeable Xmas this year, my brotha!!


The best Xmas gift anyone on this forum could get is a ninja attack on Partial at the Packerrats.com posters game in which all of Partials fingers are broken and he's left wearing his nose as an earring.

Sounds good. I'll take that on the third night of Hanukkah instead of socks and underwear!!

You need to start thinking more immediately. Time to invent an Eleventh Plague.

You think god will unleash a plague that rids of partial? Seems kinda limited.

[texaspackerbacker]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

WHile there are older black folks who definitely lament the current hip hop culture..and the violence of today's society....they aren't lamenting a return to pre civil rights america.


You pose it as an either or...as if you can't have one without the other.

I suppose you and other older whites are just as unhappy since Elvis started with his coon music and got all the white kids riled up.

You know the thing I regret most about getting old? I have the same ideas I've always had, but now they are perceived as the ideas of the old. Back in the days when people used YOUR term, "coon", black music was pretty nice. IMO, it has turned to crap right along with most white music in the same time frame. That, however, is mere opinion--personal preference.

The DEVASTATION to both black and white cultures is NOT mere opinion. It is solid fact--from homicides down to much less serious negative aspects. And WHO is to blame? It is those who have promoted the whole movement--LIBERALS--chiefly white liberals, but the black "overseers of the LIBERAL plantation" like Jesse Jackson are to blame also.

The music is just symbolic--a fairly trivial factor. It is the horrible transformation of attitudes and behavior that is the real issue. Can you HONESTLY say that those are not horrendously worse for blacks compared to a generation or two ago--with a major spillover into white culture, attitude, and behavior too?

And it all goes back to LIBERAL cultural boat-rockers--in civil rights, but certainly not limited to the civil rights arena--basically trying to reshape America into a worse place.

I agree. Let's all go back to a time when blacks weren't uppity and knew their place, Jews knew which neighborhoods to live in..and were restricted in the amount that could attend law/med school, women couldn't vote, women only worked as secretaries and school teachers (or hookers), blacks couldn't ride in the front of buses, drink from OUR water fountains, stay at our hotels.

Interesting how you use the word OUR, Tyrone. Are you now saying that you AREN'T black?

Hoosier, assuming your homicide stats are true--not merely made up, then that eliminates one aspect of devastation. Then all you have left is virtually every aspect of attitudes toward morality and behavior--including but not limited to abortion, the mainstreaming of homosexuality, drug use, media bias, corrupt practices in sports, dumbing down of education, etc.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

WHile there are older black folks who definitely lament the current hip hop culture..and the violence of today's society....they aren't lamenting a return to pre civil rights america.


You pose it as an either or...as if you can't have one without the other.

I suppose you and other older whites are just as unhappy since Elvis started with his coon music and got all the white kids riled up.

You know the thing I regret most about getting old? I have the same ideas I've always had, but now they are perceived as the ideas of the old. Back in the days when people used YOUR term, "coon", black music was pretty nice. IMO, it has turned to crap right along with most white music in the same time frame. That, however, is mere opinion--personal preference.

The DEVASTATION to both black and white cultures is NOT mere opinion. It is solid fact--from homicides down to much less serious negative aspects. And WHO is to blame? It is those who have promoted the whole movement--LIBERALS--chiefly white liberals, but the black "overseers of the LIBERAL plantation" like Jesse Jackson are to blame also.

The music is just symbolic--a fairly trivial factor. It is the horrible transformation of attitudes and behavior that is the real issue. Can you HONESTLY say that those are not horrendously worse for blacks compared to a generation or two ago--with a major spillover into white culture, attitude, and behavior too?

And it all goes back to LIBERAL cultural boat-rockers--in civil rights, but certainly not limited to the civil rights arena--basically trying to reshape America into a worse place.

I agree. Let's all go back to a time when blacks weren't uppity and knew their place, Jews knew which neighborhoods to live in..and were restricted in the amount that could attend law/med school, women couldn't vote, women only worked as secretaries and school teachers (or hookers), blacks couldn't ride in the front of buses, drink from OUR water fountains, stay at our hotels.

Interesting how you use the word OUR, Tyrone. Are you now saying that you AREN'T black?

Hoosier, assuming your homicide stats are true--not merely made up, then that eliminates one aspect of devastation. Then all you have left is virtually every aspect of attitudes toward morality and behavior--including but not limited to abortion, the mainstreaming of homosexuality, drug use, media bias, corrupt practices in sports, dumbing down of education, etc.

Whether i'm black or not is of no concern.

Hoosiers facts are valid.

You can also remove drugs. Drug use is pretty much the same as it always has been..infact, less addicts now then there were in 1900.

Depending upon whose judgment, or whose assessment, you accept there were between two and five percent of the entire adult population of the United States addicted to drugs in 1900.

Now, there were two principal causes of this dramatic level of drug addiction at the turn of the century. The first cause was the use of morphine and its various derivatives in legitimate medical operations. You know as late as 1900, particularly in areas where medical resources were scarce it was not at all uncommon for you to say, let's say you would have appendicitis, you would go into the hospital, and you would get morphine as a pain killer during the operation, you would be given morphine further after the operation and you would come out of the hospital with no appendix but addicted to morphine.

The use of morphine in battlefield operations during the Civil War was so extensive that, by 1880, so many Union veterans were addicted to morphine that the popular press referred to morphinism as the "soldier's disease".

Now, the other fact that I think that is so interesting about drug addiction at the turn of the century, as opposed to today is who the addicts were, because they were the exact opposite of who you would think most likely to be an addict today. If I were to ask you in terms of statistical groups who is most likely to be involved with drugs today, you would say a young person, a male, who lives in the city and who may be a minority group member. That is the exact opposite of who was most likely to be addicted to drugs at the turn of the century.

In terms of statistical groups, who was most likely to be addicted to drugs at the turn of the century? A rural living, middle-aged white woman. The use of morphine in medical operations does not explain the much higher incidence of drug addiction among women. What does is the second cause of the high level of addiction at the turn of the century -- the growth and development of what we now call the "patent medicine" industry.

If you want to see a relatively current portrayal of a woman addicted to patent medicine you might think of Eugene O'Neil's play "A Long Day's Journey Into Night".

Or you could watch "Tombstone," and see Earp's wife addicted to Laudnum.

[hoosier]

Hoosier, assuming your homicide stats are true--not merely made up, then that eliminates one aspect of devastation. Then all you have left is virtually every aspect of attitudes toward morality and behavior--including but not limited to abortion, the mainstreaming of homosexuality, drug use, media bias, corrupt practices in sports, dumbing down of education, etc.

You left out "emancipation" and "women's suffrage" as well as "end of prohibition." And you conveniently elide events like the Black Sox scandal that don't fit your paradigm. But your response is perfect, I wouldn't change a word, since it precisely illustrates the point I was trying to make: some people can't help but interpret change--or history, take your pick--as moral decay. Plato was that way to a degree. So was Rousseau. I guess that means you're in good company, even if your company's a little, uh, OLD.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Hoosier, assuming your homicide stats are true--not merely made up, then that eliminates one aspect of devastation. Then all you have left is virtually every aspect of attitudes toward morality and behavior--including but not limited to abortion, the mainstreaming of homosexuality, drug use, media bias, corrupt practices in sports, dumbing down of education, etc.

You left out "emancipation" and "women's suffrage" as well as "end of prohibition." And you conveniently elide events like the Black Sox scandal that don't fit your paradigm. But your response is perfect, I wouldn't change a word, since it precisely illustrates the point I was trying to make: some people can't help but interpret change--or history, take your pick--as moral decay. Plato was that way to a degree. So was Rousseau. I guess that means you're in good company, even if your company's a little, uh, OLD.

Exactly. I blame the current decline of our civilization on the auto industry.

No one can deny that as auto ownership has grown so have all of the aforementioned problems.

[texaspackerbacker]

Skew and dodge and divert all you want, but America is a different place than it was a generation or two ago. Few would argue that attitudinally and morally, it is worse, and few would argue that it isn't the those dirty words--liberalism and liberals are responsible for the changes.

There's that word again--CHANGE. When a liberal calls for change, what we need to ask is, how much WORSE are things gonna get?

I gave you guys the GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to DEFEND the fruits of liberalism, and what do you do? Instead of defending those things, you try to shift the blame to ........ whatever. If that doesn't prove that the fundamental tenets of basically everything you guys believe in are INDEFENSIBLE, then I guess nothing will.

[falco]

as i like to say...

blah blah blah

sums up all this bullshit and saves a lot of energy in the process

[TheCheese]

Illegal is illegal. You let one stay and then the rest will followYou are right about the REST following, so let's take them ALL back. Maybe we can start with YOU and your whole family? Unless you are full blooded native American you are originally not from this land (Im sure you will claim you are part Cherokee or some bullshit). Using your logic means you better start packing your shit in plastic bags the way I see it cuz 400 years in North America aint shit and damn sure doesnt make any European castoffs owners of this land.

I wonder which one of these are your peeps from way back??



What an obscene amount of bull shit logic this is. First of all, he said ILLEGAL, do you know what that means? Hes not talking about the immigrants who came over here legally, ya know, the immigrants who happen to be our fathers or fore fathers, he said illegal, that means against the law. How the fuck can you have an opposing viewpoint of him for embracing the law.

Now, if you would know anything about our history, which doesn't seem like you do, you would know that during the early to mid stages of our country, we were built on immigration, legal immigration mind you. We were a new country that needed low skilled labor workers, a country that was booming especially during the industrial age. The immigrants would come over here LEGALLY, work for a given amount of years, earn a good amount of money and return to their own country at a higher social and economic status. It worked very well, as well as any immigration system has worked in the past.

However, times have changed and America is a different country than what it once was. As before in the past we needed low skilled labor workers, now we need high skilled labor as technology has consistently grown more complex and sophisticated. That means we don't need any more immigrants for the time being because 99% of all the immigrants who come here illegally do not have the education or skill experience that the job force requires. So they are flooding the market on a lower echelon of social stratification that not only hurts our economy, but down right affects our culture simultaneously in a negative way by infusing a high number of people that are not successfully assimilating into the American lifestyle. The same American lifestyle that is the back bone of our country. I truly fail to see how you, or anyone else with your asinine point of view doesn't see this as a problem.

I live in southern California, close to L.A.; so I actually know what I'm talking about because I'm actually living it. I've seen how things have changed in the past 20 years, and no where near for the better. It makes me sick to see these are not the same immigrants that used to come into our country. You will know what I'm talking about when you have 100 or so Mexicans a mile away from your house, protesting our government, waiving their Mexican flags and signs that say all sorts of good stuff like "Breed Them Out" and that they demand rights and citizenship. Well citizenship is not a right, its a privilege, and it's a privilege to live in this damn country. And before you say, "well wah wah thats not fair, not all immigrants are like that," well that may be true, but you would never see this happen 20, 30, or 40 years ago. And the true blue hard working immigrants that come over here to be American are few and far between.

I still can't believe that so many people cannot grasp the concept that the "Commonalities of our Culture are what bind us together." If we can't get enough border agents to secure it, than build the damn wall, for its a border we use to identify our country, or any other country for that matter. Just like your property line is what defines "your" house, would you want people coming in your house to mooch? If not, why? They just want a better life. It's because Mexico's problems is not ours to bear. It is not our problem that Mexico is such a shitty country to its own people, we are not in any way shape or form economically healthy enough to just turn the cheek and say "sure ! come on over guys we will take ya!" Just like you are not economically able to absorb a bum off the street and feed him.

So the next time, you make a smart ass comment to someone who is saying uphold the law, think again. And I hope you read all of this because people like you all to often form an ignorant opinion and never cease to spew forth the bull shit that keeps adding up and up. To the point where other people believe your bull shit, and spew bull shit of their own. If your here or came here legally, good for you, welcome to America. But if you broke the law, thats right, you have to break the law to come here illegally, and currently reside here, not paying the taxes you should be paying, then with the money you do earn, you send back to Mexico ( I work with Moneygram), which is money that should be spent on our economy. That's what our economy runs off, us making money, paying taxes, and spending that money over here, not in another country. This is wrong, and unfair to everyone who considers themselves tax payers.

Secure the border, deport what illegals we can, and severely punish those who hire illegals. These steps should help get us back on track, as well as enlightening the ignorant, misinformed people such as the one I quoted. And one last thing, none of you make this a race issue. It is not a race issue, Mexicans are not a race just like Americans are not a race. Use your fricking heads and see this is a national crisis.

[GoPackGo]

convincing argument^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Tyrone Bigguns]

convincing argument^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not really. It has so many holes in it i could drive a truck through it.

Since, i know my friends will ask, "tyrone, your full of it, which part is not true?" i'll just address one.

First, i country isn't different today. We do need low skilled labor. The argument is so ludicrous that it defeats itself. If we didnt' need those illegal, low skilled mexicans..why are they here? Surely they couldn't find work.

The simple fact is that we need them. Our service industry depends on them, as does agriculture. It ain't white folks picking veggies..i guarantee you that.

And, if they weren't needed..you think a bunch of white folks would hire them. They are hired because they are needed.

And, btw illegals do pay taxes. This is the biggest canard of them all. They pay payroll taxes (i.e. FICA and Medicare) using either an invalid Social Security number or a Tax Identification Number (TIN), and empirical evidence tends to show that a large fraction of the economic incidence of these taxes falls on workers.

Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Some of these same individuals also pay income taxes, assuming their reported adjusted gross incomes are high enough to where they actually have a positive liability.

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

And, let's not forget that many illegals pay into social security and will never receive that benefit (not saying they should). The extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute. But to answer the question, "Do illegal immigrants pay any taxes?" the answer is clearly yes.

[MadtownPacker]

I live in southern California, close to L.A.; so I actually know what I'm talking about because I'm actually living it. I've seen how things have changed in the past 20 years, and no where near for the better. It makes me sick to see these are not the same immigrants that used to come into our country. You will know what I'm talking about when you have 100 or so Mexicans a mile away from your house, protesting our government, waiving their Mexican flags and signs that say all sorts of good stuff like "Breed Them Out" and that they demand rights and citizenship. Well citizenship is not a right, its a privilege, and it's a privilege to live in this damn country. And before you say, "well wah wah thats not fair, not all immigrants are like that," well that may be true, but you would never see this happen 20, 30, or 40 years ago. And the true blue hard working immigrants that come over here to be American are few and far between.

So the next time, you make a smart ass comment to someone who is saying uphold the law, think again. And I hope you read all of this because people like you all to often form an ignorant opinion and never cease to spew forth the bull shit that keeps adding up and up. To the point where other people believe your bull shit, and spew bull shit of their own. If your here or came here legally, good for you, welcome to America. But if you broke the law, thats right, you have to break the law to come here illegally, and currently reside here, not paying the taxes you should be paying, then with the money you do earn, you send back to Mexico ( I work with Moneygram), which is money that should be spent on our economy. That's what our economy runs off, us making money, paying taxes, and spending that money over here, not in another country. This is wrong, and unfair to everyone who considers themselves tax payers.

Secure the border, deport what illegals we can, and severely punish those who hire illegals. These steps should help get us back on track, as well as enlightening the ignorant, misinformed people such as the one I quoted. And one last thing, none of you make this a race issue. It is not a race issue, Mexicans are not a race just like Americans are not a race. Use your fricking heads and see this is a national crisis.Man, you are about to feel stupid.

The bottom line is that you didnt originate from here moron. Without immigration you yourself admitted you would not be here. I dont need to comment anymore about this.

As for me being ignorant or whatever the fuck you said I think I might have some experience with illegals. I was born and have lived in central California all my life. I have picked grapes along side many of those people you want thrown out. My Dad was one of those immigrants that came here to work and not fuck the US up. He is legal now and has been since the 70s. I do agree, many of today's illegals are not here to make it better only to suck up the resources. They can go. People that come here to better themselves, illegal or not are what AMERICA is all about.

In case I didnt make it clear enough for a social genius such as yourself I am of Mexican ancestry. You might see 100 Mexicans by your house on protest day but that would just be a family reunion for me.

And if you are so fucking high and mighty why dont you find a job that doesnt help send all that money out of the country???

[TheCheese]

convincing argument^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not really. It has so many holes in it i could drive a truck through it.

Since, i know my friends will ask, "tyrone, your full of it, which part is not true?" i'll just address one.

First, i country isn't different today. We do need low skilled labor. The argument is so ludicrous that it defeats itself. If we didnt' need those illegal, low skilled mexicans..why are they here? Surely they couldn't find work.

The simple fact is that we need them. Our service industry depends on them, as does agriculture. It ain't white folks picking veggies..i guarantee you that.

And, if they weren't needed..you think a bunch of white folks would hire them. They are hired because they are needed.

And, btw illegals do pay taxes. This is the biggest canard of them all. They pay payroll taxes (i.e. FICA and Medicare) using either an invalid Social Security number or a Tax Identification Number (TIN), and empirical evidence tends to show that a large fraction of the economic incidence of these taxes falls on workers.

Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Some of these same individuals also pay income taxes, assuming their reported adjusted gross incomes are high enough to where they actually have a positive liability.

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

And, let's not forget that many illegals pay into social security and will never receive that benefit (not saying they should). The extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute. But to answer the question, "Do illegal immigrants pay any taxes?" the answer is clearly yes.

Wow, your inaccurate, foolish, almost corrupt point of view really just pissed me off. This is why we have such a serious fucking problem because people like you don't actually thoroughly analyze the grand scheme of things and understand why things work the way they work and just speak out solely for the purpose or the attention, hoping no one calls you out on your amazingly large steaming pile of dog shit you call an argument. I recommend you really take some time and study the subject rather than rehash boring, old generic, devil's advocate points of view that your non-conformist hippy parents brain washed your mind with.

And do yourself a favor and re read my post, this time carefully, and if you did read the whole thing, this is the best you got? To argue with me something I never actually stated? How sad. I never said they didn't pay taxes, I said they didn't pay the right taxes, which includes all the taxes you, me and everyone else is paying. Everyone knows illegals pay some taxes, way to go on wasting time and space on this thread.

Now lets shoot down your pathetic, elementary attempt at an actual argument. Pay attention now.

You say that we need Illegal immigrants to do the ever so shrinking low labor jobs of America. We need them? We can't live without them? What the fuck kind of absurd, down right ridiculous point of view is this? During the periods of 1925 and 1965, before the immigration bill of 1965 was passed, we actually had a net emigration period OUT of the United States. Gee genius, I wonder who picked our crops, I wonder who cleaned our houses, I wonder who landscaped our yards. Hmmm, maybe WE did? Just like we always have.

You see Americans will do the jobs that Illegals do, because we always have, however we won't do jobs Illegals do for that wage, because it is self deprivation allowing yourself to be exploited like that by the corporations that hire illegals. Do you understand? I hope you do, because I enjoy educating our youth. Now lets say what the impact would be if we cracked down on our corporations from hiring Illegals. Well they would have to pay Americans a fair wage to do the job, which means more taxes would be paid from a legit, authorized check, our own people would be netting more income, therefore spending more money on our economy, not Mexico's. All this for paying maybe a buck or too more for produce products. Gee what a concept isn't it? On to your next joke.

Going back to you saying they do pay some taxes, we both stipulate on this postulation. However, what I find truly grotesque is that you defended Illegals saying they do pay taxes because some of them obtain fraudulent social security numbers. Well holy shit Maverick I wonder where they get these numbers. They Steal them from us ! Or even worse, they take their anchor babies SSN and use it, fuck up the credit, then that kid's credit is fucked up for life. How the fuck is this ok? How can you defend this? Answer my questions, maybe theres something I'm missing or you're just fucking with us and joking around because any logical thinking person in their right mind would not think this is ok, under any circumstances what so ever.

Oh by the way, it is a fact that the little amount of taxes they do pay does not equal near the amount of government services they use such as medical expenses, WIC, welfare, education, not to mention all the car accidents and property damage because they don't have insurance. Oh and for your "partially normative question," according to the Census Bureau data, the average illegal immigrant family uses $2,700/year more in services than it pays in taxes. In 2002, this led to a $10.4 billion deficit on the federal budget. Now what in the hell is so normative about that? That was in 2002 mind you, and it's only gotten exponentially worse. You do the math, and make a proper objective opinion on it and not argue with me just to not lose, you already lost and the more i type the more ridiculous you look.

Now I just systematically destroyed your argument with logic and facts. And not one part of your post the whole thing. If you do respond to this, I expect for you to thank me for further informing and educating on this subject that is so close to the heart of many Americans. Seriously, come at me with facts and logic next time, not a on the spot thought up spew of bull shit that is easily shot down by facts. Oh and speaking of statistics, heres a little more from the 2006 1st quarter INS/FBI Statistical Report, that focus on illegal immigrants in general.




“12 Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens. (that’s more than 21,900 murders by illegal aliens since September 11, 2001)

13 people per day are killed by illegal immigrants who drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol. An additional 4,745 premature deaths per year.

62% of all “undocumented immigrants” in the United States are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens, working without a green card.

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

More than 380,000 “anchor babies” born in the United States in 2005 were to parents who are illegal aliens; making those 380,000 babies automatically U.S. citizens. 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayer.

More than 66% of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

29% (630,000) of the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens—at a cost of $1.6 billion annually.

More than 53% of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

More than half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

More than 43% of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens.

More than 41% of all unemployment checks issued in the United States are to illegal aliens.

58% of all welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens.

Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens.

14 out of 31 TV stations in L.A. are Spanish-only.

16 out of 28 TV stations in Phoenix are Spanish only.

15 out of 24 TV stations in Albuquerque are Spanish-only.

More than 34% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 24% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

More than 39% of California students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 42% of California students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

In Los Angeles County, 5.1 million people speak English and 3.9 million speak Spanish.

More than 71% of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California were stolen by illegal aliens or transport “coyotes.”

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens.

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66%, 98% are illegal aliens.

Less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States are picking crops, but 41% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from illegal immigration, at a cost of nearly $68,000,000,000.00 annually.”

[TheCheese]

I live in southern California, close to L.A.; so I actually know what I'm talking about because I'm actually living it. I've seen how things have changed in the past 20 years, and no where near for the better. It makes me sick to see these are not the same immigrants that used to come into our country. You will know what I'm talking about when you have 100 or so Mexicans a mile away from your house, protesting our government, waiving their Mexican flags and signs that say all sorts of good stuff like "Breed Them Out" and that they demand rights and citizenship. Well citizenship is not a right, its a privilege, and it's a privilege to live in this damn country. And before you say, "well wah wah thats not fair, not all immigrants are like that," well that may be true, but you would never see this happen 20, 30, or 40 years ago. And the true blue hard working immigrants that come over here to be American are few and far between.

So the next time, you make a smart ass comment to someone who is saying uphold the law, think again. And I hope you read all of this because people like you all to often form an ignorant opinion and never cease to spew forth the bull shit that keeps adding up and up. To the point where other people believe your bull shit, and spew bull shit of their own. If your here or came here legally, good for you, welcome to America. But if you broke the law, thats right, you have to break the law to come here illegally, and currently reside here, not paying the taxes you should be paying, then with the money you do earn, you send back to Mexico ( I work with Moneygram), which is money that should be spent on our economy. That's what our economy runs off, us making money, paying taxes, and spending that money over here, not in another country. This is wrong, and unfair to everyone who considers themselves tax payers.

Secure the border, deport what illegals we can, and severely punish those who hire illegals. These steps should help get us back on track, as well as enlightening the ignorant, misinformed people such as the one I quoted. And one last thing, none of you make this a race issue. It is not a race issue, Mexicans are not a race just like Americans are not a race. Use your fricking heads and see this is a national crisis.Man, you are about to feel stupid.

The bottom line is that you didnt originate from here moron. Without immigration you yourself admitted you would not be here. I dont need to comment anymore about this.

Where the fuck did you hear me complain about LEGAL immigration, I'm talking about ILLEGAL immigration, how the fuck is this so hard to understand? Seriously what do I have to do? Did you see how many times I had the word illegal in my post? Did you read the closing paragraph? Or did your fury and agitation from my personal insults simply override your ability to thoroughly read my post? Of course we are all immigrant sons and daughter passed down the generations, This is still a relatively new country, inspector gadget, what the fuck do you expect? My point is that we are not that country anymore, and we can't afford to be that anymore. How is this incorrect? Seriously, what the fuck are you thinking? We cannot afford the huge masses that come over here ILLEGALLY. See the word ILLEGALLY? It's like LEGALLY except with a IL in front of it, meaning it is not legal or the opposite of legal.

As for me being ignorant or whatever the fuck you said I think I might have some experience with illegals. I was born and have lived in central California all my life. I have picked grapes along side many of those people you want thrown out. My Dad was one of those immigrants that came here to work and not fuck the US up. He is legal now and has been since the 70s. I do agree, many of today's illegals are not here to make it better only to suck up the resources. They can go. People that come here to better themselves, illegal or not are what AMERICA is all about.

For the stuff underlined, I already stated this in my post that you should of read, what the fuck are you arguing about here? You agree with me, congratulations, logic is here with you on this point. Now this is where you fuck up here with the stuff in bold italics, if America is about people coming over here ILLEGALLY, then why the fuck is it ILLEGAL? That was a nice try though, I sense good will somewhere in your clouded, biased judgment.

In case I didnt make it clear enough for a social genius such as yourself I am of Mexican ancestry. You might see 100 Mexicans by your house on protest day but that would just be a family reunion for me.

I don't understand your point. Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue. Your ethnicity is none of my business. I only care that you are American, which you are.

And if you are so fucking high and mighty why dont you find a job that doesnt help send all that money out of the country???

Ahh the disadvantages of my work, working WITH, not FOR moneygram is one of the many aspects of my job, unfortunately it is one that also is alarming at times when reviewing the transfer reports and seeing how much money is sent south of the border.

[MadtownPacker]

:lol: :lol:

[Zool]

Funny stuff. So because the native Americans didn't have laws against Europeans migrating here, that makes it legal?

By that fucking genius logic, all Mexicans should be legals. Who do you think populated the entirety of the southwestern US before we got here? Just because we drew a fucking line and said "this is where our shit ends" that makes it right?

[Harlan Huckleby]

During the periods of 1925 and 1965, before the immigration bill of 1965 was passed, we actually had a net emigration period OUT of the United States. Gee genius, I wonder who picked our crops, I wonder who cleaned our houses, I wonder who landscaped our yards. Hmmm, maybe WE did? Just like we always have.

We had larger families between 25-65, and a FAR smaller middle class. Plenty of young people, plenty of desperate people, lots of cheap labor. Times have changed, amigo.


You see Americans will do the jobs that Illegals do, because we always have, however we won't do jobs Illegals do for that wage, because it is self deprivation allowing yourself to be exploited like that by the corporations that hire illegals.

The likely result of kicking the illegals out would be depression. Look at what is happenned in Arizona after they made a MODEST attempt to eliminate illegals. They had to write loopholes back into their laws, and the economic impact was very negative.

I understand your theory, it is just unhinged from reality.

You make references to our ancestors who came here legally. Well, most came over before we even had immigration laws to restrict numbers.

The real problem is that our LEGAL immigration has only been at symbolic levels. Virtually all the immigrants who have come here the last 30 years have found employment.

I know you aren't going to change your mind. But your extreme views are really irrelevant.

We need to stop illegal immigration. But we also have to accept a large number of people who have come here the last 30 years as citizens. It is a complicated issue, nothing like the simple-minded model you have in your head.

[Scott Campbell]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.



Ethical appeal??? :shock:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal??? :shock:

Actually I think it IS a race issue. I don't like having people like Madtown in our midst any more than TheCheese. Why, just two weeks ago I discovered that my ex-wife is balling a mexican. Deeply disturbing.

[Scott Campbell]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal??? :shock:

Actually I think it IS a race issue. I don't like having people like Madtown in our midst any more than TheCheese. Why, just two weeks ago I discovered that my ex-wife is balling a mexican. Deeply disturbing.


So Mad is doing your ex-forum, and his cousin is doing your ex-wife. I can see why you might have some race issues.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

convincing argument^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not really. It has so many holes in it i could drive a truck through it.

Since, i know my friends will ask, "tyrone, your full of it, which part is not true?" i'll just address one.

First, i country isn't different today. We do need low skilled labor. The argument is so ludicrous that it defeats itself. If we didnt' need those illegal, low skilled mexicans..why are they here? Surely they couldn't find work.

The simple fact is that we need them. Our service industry depends on them, as does agriculture. It ain't white folks picking veggies..i guarantee you that.

And, if they weren't needed..you think a bunch of white folks would hire them. They are hired because they are needed.

And, btw illegals do pay taxes. This is the biggest canard of them all. They pay payroll taxes (i.e. FICA and Medicare) using either an invalid Social Security number or a Tax Identification Number (TIN), and empirical evidence tends to show that a large fraction of the economic incidence of these taxes falls on workers.

Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Some of these same individuals also pay income taxes, assuming their reported adjusted gross incomes are high enough to where they actually have a positive liability.

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

And, let's not forget that many illegals pay into social security and will never receive that benefit (not saying they should). The extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute. But to answer the question, "Do illegal immigrants pay any taxes?" the answer is clearly yes.

Wow, your inaccurate, foolish, almost corrupt point of view really just pissed me off. This is why we have such a serious fucking problem because people like you don't actually thoroughly analyze the grand scheme of things and understand why things work the way they work and just speak out solely for the purpose or the attention, hoping no one calls you out on your amazingly large steaming pile of dog shit you call an argument. I recommend you really take some time and study the subject rather than rehash boring, old generic, devil's advocate points of view that your non-conformist hippy parents brain washed your mind with.

And do yourself a favor and re read my post, this time carefully, and if you did read the whole thing, this is the best you got? To argue with me something I never actually stated? How sad. I never said they didn't pay taxes, I said they didn't pay the right taxes, which includes all the taxes you, me and everyone else is paying. Everyone knows illegals pay some taxes, way to go on wasting time and space on this thread.

Now lets shoot down your pathetic, elementary attempt at an actual argument. Pay attention now.

You say that we need Illegal immigrants to do the ever so shrinking low labor jobs of America. We need them? We can't live without them? What the fuck kind of absurd, down right ridiculous point of view is this? During the periods of 1925 and 1965, before the immigration bill of 1965 was passed, we actually had a net emigration period OUT of the United States. Gee genius, I wonder who picked our crops, I wonder who cleaned our houses, I wonder who landscaped our yards. Hmmm, maybe WE did? Just like we always have.

You see Americans will do the jobs that Illegals do, because we always have, however we won't do jobs Illegals do for that wage, because it is self deprivation allowing yourself to be exploited like that by the corporations that hire illegals. Do you understand? I hope you do, because I enjoy educating our youth. Now lets say what the impact would be if we cracked down on our corporations from hiring Illegals. Well they would have to pay Americans a fair wage to do the job, which means more taxes would be paid from a legit, authorized check, our own people would be netting more income, therefore spending more money on our economy, not Mexico's. All this for paying maybe a buck or too more for produce products. Gee what a concept isn't it? On to your next joke.

Going back to you saying they do pay some taxes, we both stipulate on this postulation. However, what I find truly grotesque is that you defended Illegals saying they do pay taxes because some of them obtain fraudulent social security numbers. Well holy shit Maverick I wonder where they get these numbers. They Steal them from us ! Or even worse, they take their anchor babies SSN and use it, fuck up the credit, then that kid's credit is fucked up for life. How the fuck is this ok? How can you defend this? Answer my questions, maybe theres something I'm missing or you're just fucking with us and joking around because any logical thinking person in their right mind would not think this is ok, under any circumstances what so ever.

Oh by the way, it is a fact that the little amount of taxes they do pay does not equal near the amount of government services they use such as medical expenses, WIC, welfare, education, not to mention all the car accidents and property damage because they don't have insurance. Oh and for your "partially normative question," according to the Census Bureau data, the average illegal immigrant family uses $2,700/year more in services than it pays in taxes. In 2002, this led to a $10.4 billion deficit on the federal budget. Now what in the hell is so normative about that? That was in 2002 mind you, and it's only gotten exponentially worse. You do the math, and make a proper objective opinion on it and not argue with me just to not lose, you already lost and the more i type the more ridiculous you look.

Now I just systematically destroyed your argument with logic and facts. And not one part of your post the whole thing. If you do respond to this, I expect for you to thank me for further informing and educating on this subject that is so close to the heart of many Americans. Seriously, come at me with facts and logic next time, not a on the spot thought up spew of bull shit that is easily shot down by facts. Oh and speaking of statistics, heres a little more from the 2006 1st quarter INS/FBI Statistical Report, that focus on illegal immigrants in general.




“12 Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens. (that’s more than 21,900 murders by illegal aliens since September 11, 2001)

13 people per day are killed by illegal immigrants who drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol. An additional 4,745 premature deaths per year.

62% of all “undocumented immigrants” in the United States are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens, working without a green card.

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

More than 380,000 “anchor babies” born in the United States in 2005 were to parents who are illegal aliens; making those 380,000 babies automatically U.S. citizens. 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayer.

More than 66% of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

29% (630,000) of the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens—at a cost of $1.6 billion annually.

More than 53% of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

More than half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

More than 43% of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens.

More than 41% of all unemployment checks issued in the United States are to illegal aliens.

58% of all welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens.

Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens.

14 out of 31 TV stations in L.A. are Spanish-only.

16 out of 28 TV stations in Phoenix are Spanish only.

15 out of 24 TV stations in Albuquerque are Spanish-only.

More than 34% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 24% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

More than 39% of California students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 42% of California students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

In Los Angeles County, 5.1 million people speak English and 3.9 million speak Spanish.

More than 71% of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California were stolen by illegal aliens or transport “coyotes.”

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens.

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66%, 98% are illegal aliens.

Less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States are picking crops, but 41% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from illegal immigration, at a cost of nearly $68,000,000,000.00 annually.”

Dude, before you start calling someone foolish and inaccurate, look in the mirror.

Second, instead of calling my points generic..take a look at yours. And, btw, my parents are far from hippies...as they display many a crystal elephant garnered from donations to the republican party.

Must gall you to acknowledge that some people can think for themselves and actually come to conclusions differing from yours.

1. Please try using some references when making statements like we had net loss regarding emigration. Otherwise it is just talk. Which until i see evidence, i dont' believe.

2. Only idiots try to compare 1965 to today. Wow. You think that losing an exploited class like blacks might have something to do with our situation now. Or that we are more urbanized.

3. Right we did. But, we dont' wanna do it anymore. Back then we had 1 person working. Dope. Now we have 2 working parent families.

Society has changed.

4. Fair wage. Ah, now you've stumbled onto something. But, do you think companies want to do that? LOL If they did, they would hire americans at a higher wage and not hire illegals. I don't remember anyone holding a gun to their throat and forcing them to hire illegals.

I also know that you and the rest of this country likes their prices low. You really think this country wants to pay higher prices. Right.

We aren't talking produce, idiot. Try factories, try the housing market, try carpentry, plumbing, etc.

5. Keep your racist shit to yourself. You prove your racism by listing the tv stations. Who cares. That is the free market. It isn't a law that you have to speak english in this country. And, if there is a market, serve it.

[TheCheese]

Funny stuff. So because the native Americans didn't have laws against Europeans migrating here, that makes it legal?

Is that a serious question? Wow. There wasn't even a country back then to have laws at that time. Try to get a little more effective analogy to defeat my argument.

By that fucking genius logic, all Mexicans should be legals. Who do you think populated the entirety of the southwestern US before we got here? Just because we drew a fucking line and said "this is where our shit ends" that makes it right?

First of all, what the fuck kind of shit is this? Did you not understand my posts? I'm not talking about the fucking people who were here hundreds of years ago. I'm talking about the illegal aliens coming over right now, it's wrong. Seriously why the fuck is this so hard to understand? Oh and by the way little buddy, what is your methods to define a country? Since you obviously don't understand the concept of "borders," I'm curious to see your thought process.

[TheCheese]

During the periods of 1925 and 1965, before the immigration bill of 1965 was passed, we actually had a net emigration period OUT of the United States. Gee genius, I wonder who picked our crops, I wonder who cleaned our houses, I wonder who landscaped our yards. Hmmm, maybe WE did? Just like we always have.

We had larger families between 25-65, and a FAR smaller middle class. Plenty of young people, plenty of desperate people, lots of cheap labor. Times have changed, amigo.

So you're saying if we didn't have any Illegal immigrants, our low skilled labor would never get done? We became dependent on the cheap labor out of preference, not necessity.


You see Americans will do the jobs that Illegals do, because we always have, however we won't do jobs Illegals do for that wage, because it is self deprivation allowing yourself to be exploited like that by the corporations that hire illegals.

The likely result of kicking the illegals out would be depression. Look at what is happenned in Arizona after they made a MODEST attempt to eliminate illegals. They had to write loopholes back into their laws, and the economic impact was very negative.

What loop holes are you talking about? Obviously mass deportation of every single illegal is unrealistic, however deportation of the ones easily removed, especially the repeat criminals should be common sense. Upholding our laws that is in America's best interest is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I understand your theory, it is just unhinged from reality.

You make references to our ancestors who came here legally. Well, most came over before we even had immigration laws to restrict numbers.

Exactly, as stated before in my posts, in the early stages of our country, immigration was encouraged, we needed it. However, as you just stated, "times have changed, amigo." We are not that same country and we cannot economically support mass infusion of illegal immigrants. It is a drain on our economy; it's been proven. We have our own poor in this country to worry about, let alone another country's.

The real problem is that our LEGAL immigration has only been at symbolic levels. Virtually all the immigrants who have come here the last 30 years have found employment.

Could you elaborate further on this please? Are you talking about all immigrants legal and illegal? If so, why does this change the fact that we have to stop illegal immigration today? It's bad right now and only going to get worse.

I know you aren't going to change your mind. But your extreme views are really irrelevant.

First of all, how are my views extreme? And how are they irrelevant? I had no idea, trying to uphold the law, especially something that is so economic and culture significant to us is extreme.

We need to stop illegal immigration. But we also have to accept a large number of people who have come here the last 30 years as citizens. It is a complicated issue, nothing like the simple-minded model you have in your head.

So to sum it up, you are against illegal immigration, but pro amnesty. Wow where have I heard this before. Yep, the last amnesty was a great success.

[TheCheese]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.



Ethical appeal??? :shock:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ethical Appeal (ethos)
Ethical appeal is used to establish the writer as fair, open-minded, honest, and knowledgeable about the subject matter. The writer creates a sense of him or herself as trustworthy and credible.

[TheCheese]

Dude, before you start calling someone foolish and inaccurate, look in the mirror.

Second, instead of calling my points generic..take a look at yours. And, btw, my parents are far from hippies...as they display many a crystal elephant garnered from donations to the republican party.

Must gall you to acknowledge that some people can think for themselves and actually come to conclusions differing from yours.

Alright than, feel better? Lets move onto the subject.

1. Please try using some references when making statements like we had net loss regarding emigration. Otherwise it is just talk. Which until i see evidence, i dont' believe.

First, do some homework, then you will believe, thats the problem you and me are having here. Second, I list a shit load of statistics that were cited that you won't even talk about, but you bitch about the one that is common sense without the cite? Sounds a little nit-picky to me.

2. Only idiots try to compare 1965 to today. Wow. You think that losing an exploited class like blacks might have something to do with our situation now. Or that we are more urbanized.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

3. Right we did. But, we dont' wanna do it anymore. Back then we had 1 person working. Dope. Now we have 2 working parent families.

Society has changed.

I thought only idiots compared the time today to the time of the past. Please stop contradicting yourself, it really is quite annoying. Unless you admit that your an idiot, in which case carry on.

4. Fair wage. Ah, now you've stumbled onto something. But, do you think companies want to do that? LOL If they did, they would hire americans at a higher wage and not hire illegals. I don't remember anyone holding a gun to their throat and forcing them to hire illegals.

I also know that you and the rest of this country likes their prices low. You really think this country wants to pay higher prices. Right.

We aren't talking produce, idiot. Try factories, try the housing market, try carpentry, plumbing, etc.

You miss the point once again, goodness this is getting tiresome. What would the companies hire if there was no illegals to hire? Ahh do you get it now? Even if there are illegals to hire, if we crack down on those companies like we should, they will be forced to hire the Americans. If I gotta pay a little higher prices to help the country and economy out significantly, then so be it. I, just as millions of Americans, would be proud to do this. We would get that money back in other areas from the lack of economic drain illegals put on our economy. Is this concept getting through your thick head you dumb ass?

5. Keep your racist shit to yourself. You prove your racism by listing the tv stations. Who cares. That is the free market. It isn't a law that you have to speak english in this country. And, if there is a market, serve it.

Ahh finally you get to throw the racist card you ignorant fool. Once again, this has nothing to do with race. Do you think Mexicans are the only people on the planet that speak Spanish? Did you know millions of Africans in Africa speak French? Do you understand that language has nothing to do with race? Or is it that your mind can't comprehend the complexity of this issue, that you just throw the racism shit out of no where to compensate this. I didn't put those stats of the tv stations in there, I posted the article as a whole. For the last time, leave race out of this.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So to sum it up, you are against illegal immigration, but pro amnesty. Wow where have I heard this before. Yep, the last amnesty was a great success.


Its true that many of the Mexicans and South Americans broke laws entering the country. But I don't think they did ANYTHING morally wrong, I have no problem with them as individuals. They are just surviving.

I think the talk of amnesty, and legal versus illegal is just a cover for the underlying issue. After all, if your real problem is with the illegality, an amnesty removes that barrior, puff, they're legal and you can love them.

Almost everybody agrees we should not have illegal immigration, it would be much better to control the flow. The point of contention is whether we want large numbers of new immigrants here in the country.

You evidently don't want them. I say bring 'um on, welcome aboard. Certainly the numbers that are already here are just fine.

[MadtownPacker]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.



Ethical appeal??? :shock:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ethical Appeal (ethos)
Ethical appeal is used to establish the writer as fair, open-minded, honest, and knowledgeable about the subject matter. The writer creates a sense of him or herself as trustworthy and credible.
I kjnow this is what you meant and that is why I laughed my BROWN ass off.

This might be the only time in my life that not being white has worked in my favor. :lol:

[texaspackerbacker]

OK, Harlan and I have gone round and round on this, and I know he has this "morality" thing about what he calls "taking advantage" and I call "a mutually advantageous situation". I want to hear Madtown's perspective on this, and I also want to hear Cheese's perspective as a hardcore anti-illegal immigration person.

My position is to do our best to close the border with a fence, a virtual fence, beefed up Border Patrol, whatever. I'm not arguing the feasibility or effectiveness of that here.

The main point of contention, however, would be this: I OPPOSE amnesty on the grounds that in addition to rewarding the illegality of their entry, MAKING THEM LEGAL WOULD MAKE IT MUCH LESS LIKELY THAT THEY WOULD WORK CHEAP AND DO THE JOBS OTHERS DON'T WANT TO DO FOR LOW PAY. I would NOT make an effort to send back any illegals other than those arrested for secondary crimes.

I call this MUTUALLY ADVANTAGEOUS because America continues to get the benefit of the cheap labor, and the illegals get the benefit of making significantly more money and living in significantly better conditions than they would in Mexico or wherever else.

Mad and Cheese, what say you? Harlan, I already know you don't like it.

[Scott Campbell]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.



Ethical appeal??? :shock:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ethical Appeal (ethos)
Ethical appeal is used to establish the writer as fair, open-minded, honest, and knowledgeable about the subject matter. The writer creates a sense of him or herself as trustworthy and credible.



My apologies. I thought you meant to say ethnic appeal. It's not the first time I've been wrong, and won't be the last.

[MadtownPacker]

Mad and Cheese, what say you? Harlan, I already know you don't like it.I agree the flow needs to be controlled but it should not be stopped. I also believe that current HARD WORKING illegals who arent involved in any bullshit should continue on but be documented and given a legal alien social security type number. They should have to pay taxes. No claiming kids that dont exist. They should only be eligible for welfare or assistance programs for no longer than 6 months lifetime. Breaking a significant law should mean deportation and blacklisted.

For all this shit and more to happen it will take alot of people keeping track of everything. I agree with the idea of the border fence I just don't think it will really stop anything. Why bother trying to stop people from getting in when they can easily just be found here. They aint gonna be hiding in caves. Most people can take you to someone who is here illegally no matter what state you live in. Just give everyone 3 months to apply. They pass they stay they don't they go. They don't get the same rights Americans do until they pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

[TheCheese]

Well Texas it is an interesting proposition, however I think it sends the wrong message to just turn the other cheek with the illegals we have here now. I understand what you are saying, however, economically it still wouldn't be in our best interest due to them not paying the taxes they should be paying, i.e., using more services than they pay into. That is my main concern. If amnesty was granted, they would be able to pay more taxes, however we would hit a huge inflation mark like we have before, that is where it gets complicated. Also like you stated it is wrong to grant them a free pass with amnesty by rewarding them for their illegal entry.

Some of Mad's ideas on this topic I actually agree with.

In an ideal world that you proposed, one in which the border is successfully secured and no more illegals are passing through, would give us an advantage to turn our attention to illegals on our streets. Like i said before mass deportation is unrealistic, however finding illegals as Mad has stated is a very easy thing to do.

I believe we look at as many illegals as possible case by case, the ones without children here, or heavily family tied, should be deported, as well as any criminals, as fast as possible. This leaves the illegals here with mainly children to take care of that can't be left stranded. Then these illegals should have to apply for documentation, NOT citizenship. This documentation would basically make it so they are paying just as much taxes as we are, however they are only eligible for very little government programs similar to what Mad proposed. They have less rights, no right to vote and also a time limit in which they have to enter a more intensive citizenship application process. This process would require that they learn basic English skills, and learn the history of the United States and the culture of Americans on their own time and money. After paying a steep initial "down payment" to take the test, if they successfully pass it, they will be granted full citizenship in around the time of 5 years. If they fail, they are deported.

What this does is, basically makes it the ideal middle ground of amnesty, and mass deportation. As you stated with the border fully secure, this process would be one of better options. It weeds out the illegals trying to take advantage of the system/ criminals however at the same time, makes it very difficult for the illegals to stay here, however the ones who truly want the better life and truly want to become American, will make it happen. This in turn does not necessary reward the illegals for coming over here illegally, for they end up paying more for less in the short term, however in the long term benefits everyone, including the illegals, and most of all is in our economic best interest.

[texaspackerbacker]

Very interesting. Thank you both for responding.

I'm pleased that Mad didn't echo Harlan's "it's immoral to take advantage of them by having them stay illegal and work cheap". But you don't want to budge from amnesty. OK, I can sort of respect that position, just not agree with it.

Cheese, I thought what I was talking about was the "middle ground"--basically just leaving well enough alone other than closing the border. Your case by case middle ground has possibilities too, but I really don't think they would turn themselves in, even under those circumstances, so it STILL would take a major round-up with the severe negative implications, up and maybe including an "insurgency" right here in this country.

And if you do legalize the ones you don't send back, then you do away with the cheap labor thing--which really IS significant.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Then these illegals should have to apply for documentation, NOT citizenship.

Interesting that your red line is that those people must never become citizens. Why is this so important to you? Funny, we never treated the Norwegians this way when they came here to work.

There are two issues:
1) What do we do about the 20 million illegals who are already here?
2) How do we control the flow of illegal immigration into the country?

The anti-immigrant folks are concerned about both issues, but they're particularly worried about #1, the existing immigrants getting legal status. Problem #2 is what matters to the future of the country, and there are effective ways to deal with this problem if we'll just get serious about it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And if you do legalize the ones you don't send back, then you do away with the cheap labor thing--which really IS significant.

First of all, to just turn a blind eye to illegal immigration as a policy is nuts. You leave a huge population of people vulnerable to deportation, and therefore they have no rights to decent treatment. That's wrong. And on the other side, employers don't want to carry the risk of being busted for hiring illegals. Maybe the local public or police is OK with ignoring the law today, but that can change suddenly tomorrow.

The solution is a guest worker program that includes a path to citizenship. This pool of people will still provide a supply of relatively cheap labor.

[TheCheese]

Then these illegals should have to apply for documentation, NOT citizenship.

Interesting that your red line is that those people must never become citizens. Why is this so important to you? Funny, we never treated the Norwegians this way when they came here to work.

There are two issues:
1) What do we do about the 20 million illegals who are already here?
2) How do we control the flow of illegal immigration into the country?

The anti-immigrant folks are concerned about both issues, but they're particularly worried about #1, the existing immigrants getting legal status. Problem #2 is what matters to the future of the country, and there are effective ways to deal with this problem if we'll just get serious about it.

Red my whole damn post please before you respond. Who said I want them never to become citizens, read it again.

[texaspackerbacker]

And if you do legalize the ones you don't send back, then you do away with the cheap labor thing--which really IS significant.

First of all, to just turn a blind eye to illegal immigration as a policy is nuts. You leave a huge population of people vulnerable to deportation, and therefore they have no rights to decent treatment. That's wrong. And on the other side, employers don't want to carry the risk of being busted for hiring illegals. Maybe the local public or police is OK with ignoring the law today, but that can change suddenly tomorrow.

The solution is a guest worker program that includes a path to citizenship. This pool of people will still provide a supply of relatively cheap labor.

No, it is NOT wrong. They are illegal. They SHOULD be vulnerable to deportation. They just shouldn't be deported unless they get in trouble for some secondary violation--and then, they SHOULD be gone with no benefit of due process. After all, even as illegals, they still DO get due process if their crime is serious enough to go to prison. I'm not sure I like that, but it is what it is.

The guest worker program would take away their incentive to work for extremely low pay--which is still a helluva lot more than they make in Mexico. THAT would be wrong! I know you disagree, but to me, if we are going to look the other way and let them enjoy OUR country, we should get something for it--which we do with cheaper prices of things across the board--not just the particular jobs they actually do.

I still say, it is win/win the way it is now. Don't mess with a good thing--other than taking control of the border, of course. And I think most illegals would agree.

This is just like when liberals raise the minimum wage--and in the process, hurt a lot of minimum wage workers who lose their jobs because the employer can't afford them--do-gooder naivete.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Red my whole damn post please before you respond. Who said I want them never to become citizens, read it again.

OK, I stand corrected, it sounds like you are at least open to a limited trickle of new citiizens. But you also are enthusiastic about deporting people who don't have family ties.

Lets get down to brass tacks. Of the 20 million illegals in the country, approximately how many would you be willing to see on some track to citizenship? My number would be 20 million minus those with criminal records.

Again, there is general agreement about stemming or halting the flow of illegal immigrants into the country. I don't much mind if people want to erect a Great Wall around the country. The controversy is over what to do about the ones already here.