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View Full Version : "Value Picks" and "Reaches"



Fritz
04-26-2008, 10:02 AM
These are two terms that are going to be thrown about quite a bit in the next few days. I dislike both terms for what they imply - an implication with no basis in truth. These terms have some use, but very little use.

"Value picks" are simply guys still on the board with the most recognizable names once you hit say the two-thirds mark of the first round and thereafter. So if it gets to the fourth round and a guy like Mario Manningham, Michigan's receiver, is still available, he becomes a "value pick" simply because he's got a recognizabl;e name and no one has taken him yet. So fans get all excited when their team takes a guy like that - we've heard of him! He was a big deal in college and he's still on the board! Therefore, he must be good somehow! I remember Mel Kiper saying that Darell Thompson was a "value pick" when the Pack took him years ago. Aaron Rodgers was a "value pick." So what? It doesn't guarantee you've made a good pick if a guy is a "value pick."

"Reaches" are guys taken before the big-haired experts and sportswriters think they should've been. GM's get criticized for this all the time - you coulda got that guy a round or two later! What were you thinking?

This is all part of the draft hype, but has little real use. If a GM does his homework and has his board set, then he ought to stick to it. I recall that Ted's pick of Greg Jennings was considered a bit of a reach, and certainly James Jones was considered such. Well, would either of them be seen as a reach now? Of course not. TT liked them, had them on his board, and drafted them.

Sure, if TT drafted, say, an average punting prospect in, oh, say the third round - and traded up to do so - that might be a useful example of a real "reach" that could've been had later. But that kind of extremism doesn't occur often. Just as a guy like Rodgers doesn't drop from possible #1 overall just weeks before the draft to #25 first round doesn't happen often at all.

It just depends on whether a guy ends up as a player or not. And since there's no way to know at the time, those terms are just ways to judge a GM's picks without really knowing whether the pick is going to be good or not. It gives guys like Bob McGinn a way to be critical of TT before the draft for not trading up since somehow he's determined there's no "value" at the #30 slot. How the hell does he know that? If TT "reaches" for someone who has graded (by whom, by the way?) at a second round pick, and the guy works out great, then was it a reach?

Last beef: I'm pretty unhappy with McGinn's last couple of articles. I know he has to produce news where there is none, but his last couple of articles seem highly critical of Thompson for not trading up - or now, highly critical if TT doesn't trade down.

HarveyWallbangers
04-26-2008, 10:26 AM
Good rant.

The Leaper
04-26-2008, 10:28 AM
I agree for the most part...although I do believe there are certainly reaches where a team picks simply according to need and fails to take into account the value of the pick (see Ahmad Carroll, BJ Sander) and I also believe there are value picks (see Aaron Rodgers) where a guy falls 5-10 spots because some teams just don't need help in a position where he plays.

Carroll should never have been a 1st round pick. Rodgers probably should've been a top 15 pick. Rodgers would be far and away the best QB in the draft if he had come out this year. We got him for a song.

These picks typically can only happen in the first 50 or so picks, where teams have a really good feel for the talent of the all of the players. After that, it is a crap shoot for the most part. So when they are bringing up these terms tomorrow, analysts are talking out their buttcheek.

Fritz
04-26-2008, 10:32 AM
I agree that the terms have a limited use - but it is limited. For example, I'd agree that Sander was a real reach, and Rodgers a "value picki." But if Rodgers sucks ass he's no value. And if the Beej had been great he'd have not been a reach. You can only truly know these things in retrospect, though I agree wth you that there are some extreme cases where it can appear to be pretty clear - I.E. the Beeh.

I just don't like the way Kiper throws the terms around as if he's speaking gospel.

And I feel better now for ranting...

The Leaper
04-26-2008, 10:39 AM
I just don't like the way Kiper throws the terms around as if he's speaking gospel.

Well, it wouldn't be entertaining if they all sat around and said "who knows" for 16 hours.

Fritz
04-26-2008, 10:43 AM
No, but it would be entertaining to shorten the coverage and to shorten the time between picks to seven or eight minutes.

It would also be helpful if the know-it-alls would occasionally admit that what they say is speculation and not the Truth.

Bretsky
04-26-2008, 10:49 AM
Last year many noted James Jones was a reach and David Clowney was a value pick

Carolina_Packer
04-26-2008, 02:00 PM
Matt Ryan physically looks a little like Ryan Leaf. Sure hope he doesn't turn out like him.

As for value vs. reach, I think it doesn't matter much now where they are picked. Make your board 3-5 years from now and then you can properly assess reach vs. value pick. The ones who make an impact are all value picks. The ones who wash out are reaches, no matter the round picked.

HarveyWallbangers
04-26-2008, 02:20 PM
There's a stat about the most successful QBs being guys that were winners in college at bigger schools, started 30+ games, and had good completion percentage. I think Ryan fits the mold. Most (not all) of the bust QBs were smaller school QBs, one year wonders, or guys that played in spread offenses.

Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Andre Ware, David Klingler, Dan McGwire, Patrick Ramsey, Kyle Boller, J.P. Losman would all fit under that.