Voluntary Practices

[Harlan Huckleby]

Mike McCarthy was quoted in the paper today that he won't be satisfied until he gets 100% participation in the Spring practices. He also said something like he was working to change the culture, meaning in the past it was OK to miss the voluntary camps and "organized team activities." (a funny way of saying "practice".)

What the hell does "voluntary" mean? If the boss says he expects everybody to be there, that's not voluntary.

I think the NFL should just get rid of the spring practices and mini-camps. Summer training camp is plenty long enough. The guys are training year round.

But if they are going to have these May and June "organized team activities", they ought to be called training camps, and be written into the collective bargaining agreement. Keep it real. Enough of the coaches barking, and fans complaining about players not showing up.

[Patler]

Actually, the Packers turnout is very good by comparison to some others. From "Vic Caucci's Tuesday Huddle" at nfl.com:

"It's impressive that the Baltimore Ravens had a healthy turnout of about 80 players for their organized team activities. It's disappointing that they were expecting only about 30 to show up. Low expectations have become pretty common for OTA attendance."

[motife]

At Packers.com when Nick Collins was asked if he was going to attend any of the future OTA's, he started sheepishly giggling, then said while chuckling "no comment".


http://www.packers.com/multimedia/video/2006_non_game_video/

[GBRulz]

he was there today.

As long as the media portrays players missing voluntary camps as concerns, of course suddenly it will be a big deal to everyone.

[RashanGary]

Those guys are getting paid millions. I think I might want to be the best I could be if I were a player.

If I was a coach, I'd want everyone doing their best. Nothing wrong with that.

HH stirring the pot again.

[FavreChild]

We all have crap we have to do for work that is "voluntary" or "highly recommended." Company picnic, the Christmas party, professional development workshops, etc. You don't HAVE to do it, but it is "frowned upon" if you don't. So most of us are too wussy to give excuses why we can't.

OTA is just a BS moniker, just like all of our own places of employment have. :neutral:

[RashanGary]

Fans want to see players doing everything they can do to win. Nothing wrong with fans being fans IMO.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Do they need the May and June camps to keep the quality of play high in the NFL?

I doubt it makes any difference. Perhaps there is a slight edge, which forces all teams to hold these glorified gym classes.

It's just a personal preference, I get tired fo reading about who shows up, and listening to coaches carp. If the camps are important, make them mandatory.

[Guiness]

I've long been of the opinion that these 'voluntary' camps are bogus. The CBA allows teams a certain number of them, but they aren't really voluntary, etc. I think they should just make a deal with the union, split the number of days in half, and call it a spring camp.

Did McKenzie really say he expects 100% participation? If so, I EXPECT he'll be getting his ass fined.

[RashanGary]

The Players Union battles so the players don't have to be around all year long. The coaches would have year round participation if possible. The Union fights for more time off. They make an agreement that is probably a compromise.

Just becuase they agree to less doesn't mean the coaches are going to stop trying to get more out of their people.

It's pretty understandable IMO.

[RashanGary]

I think players who show up are more interested in getting better. I think it's a good sign.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think players who show up are more interested in getting better. I think it's a good sign.

It's obviously a good sign. Never hurts to practice more either. I also agree with Harlan though. Get rid of the voluntary part of this. Write the exact number in the CBA. KGB said that the players got the schedule much later than usual this year because of the new coaching staff, and many players had scheduled things for this time. I won't judge a player until they starting missing preseason games.

[RashanGary]

The players get a technicality put into the CBA that says they odn't have to work year round. The coach still is going to ask for more.

I don't see the issue there.

The coach would make them all non-voluntary if he could. The Players Union has power and put this clause in the CBA. How can you make them manditory if it's not allowed?

[RashanGary]

It basically comes down to the Coaches wnat year round participation and the Union won't agree. Technically they don't have to come, but the coach is still going to ask. I don't see the issue.

[RashanGary]

What HH is saying is that if the CBA says 12 days of mini camp then the coach should not ask anymore than what is manditory. I disagree.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Nick, the current system sets up an annoying, confrontational situation. That is the problem.

Better to just do things in open, straight forward way. I'm sure the coaches HATE not knowing who is gonna show up. The players probably resent getting pressured. It's just a crappy arrangement that could/should be made better. Cancel the spring practices or make them mandatory.

[RashanGary]

They are contractually binded not to make them mandetory. I'm sure they would if they could.

Just because the Union gets the clause put in doesn't mean the coach should just stop trying to be better than the minimum. The players don't have to settle for minimum either.

[RashanGary]

Has it ever occured to you that many players want to be better. They want to work and accel at their careers. Why would you stop guys from voluntarily getting better.

Not showing up is not punished. Sure, they are probably losing ground and losing leadership clout, but that is their choice.

[Tarlam!]

I agree with HH.

I think you call it what it is. If it's optional, then, that's what it is. You don't have to go, but if you put in the extra work, you are looked upon in a brighter light.

I love the idea of an off-season workout program. I wish they were al in GB doing it, because it builds the fraterinty.

BUT: The best players, the fittest players, the players that have the best shot at helping the team win, should start.

So, if Brett Favre comes to official training camp overweight and underperforming, while A-Rod (who invested the time in GB to improve) is clearly the better QB in camp, does anyone really think A_Rod will get the nod?? Just aint gonna happen, is it.

Until every player is fighting for his roster spot, OTA are voluntary and those that feel they'll start regardless will treat them with disdain.

[Rastak]

Nick, the current system sets up an annoying, confrontational situation. That is the problem.

Better to just do things in open, straight forward way. I'm sure the coaches HATE not knowing who is gonna show up. The players probably resent getting pressured. It's just a crappy arrangement that could/should be made better. Cancel the spring practices or make them mandatory.


HH has nailed it...it's currently a sham. (No offense Patler),,,and it isn't just the Packers, it 's all 32 that fully expect everyone to attend a "voluntary" practice.

[motife]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

PACK TO IMPLODE IN 2006?

As if the Green Bay Packers' 4-12 season in 2005 wasn't bad enough, the first year under new coach Mike McCarthy is showing early signs of being a potential train wreck.

The evidence? At a time when the team should be getting up to speed on the new systems that the new staff is putting into place, far too many players who'll be expected to contribute when the season begins are still nowhere to be found.

And McCarthy is coming off like a guy with no juice, telling the media that he doesn't know when guys like cornerback Al Harris, cornerback Charles Woodson, receiver Rod Gardner, and defensive tackle Ryan Pickett will show up for OTAs that run through June 21.

Harris isn't with the team because he's unhappy with his contract -- a fact that prompted McCarthy to take out some of his frustrations recently on Jason Wilde of the Winsconsin State Journal, who had the audacity to, you know, report the reason for Harris' absence.

But Harris is a guy who pre-dates the regime of McCarthy and G.M. Ted Thompson; Woodson and Pickett are guys that Mike and Ted added this offseason.

As one league insider has explained, the absence of Woodson and Pickett is further proof as to why both have been deemed underachievers during their NFL careers. "They've have never played up to all the hype, and then they go to a new team and are still pieces of sh-t off and on the field," said the source.

We've previously opined that the Pack are capable of winning the NFC North in 2006, and that their effort in 2005 wasn't as pathetic as their 4-12 record would indicate. But given that NFL teams put in 90 percent of the offense and defense during offseason workouts, we're starting to develop real concerns that the Pack will struggle come September.

[RashanGary]

If guys want to put in extra work to be better, great. Maybe you don't like that the coach pressures everyone to be there, but why shouldn't he. Just becuase they don't have to be there doesn't mean they shouldn't be there.

It's like if you sign a 50,000 per year contract where you only have to work 40 per week. Lets say your job wants you to be there more than those 40 because work gets busy. Sure, it's not in your contract so they can't fire you just like GB or MINN or anyteam cannot fine the players or cut them but I'm sure everyone at your job takes note that your one of those guys whose just not willing to do anything you don't have to. Maybe when your contract is up they find someone whos similar to yourself but wants to do whatever ti takes to be their best. I know it's not the cozy black and white that most can only conduct their thinking within, but I really don't see the problem with a coach wanting to do more than the minimum. Hell, I don't see a problem with the players wanting to do more than the scheduled minimum. Maybe the CBA Should not have those rules, but you cannot always beat the system. I proved that a couple days ago once again.

[Tarlam!]

What a bullshit angle to try and sow the seeds of disharmony in the Pack. Well, this is another sympton of the league's policy of OTA.

I am behind the Train Wreck 1000%.

[RashanGary]

LOL....

I like it. Better get used to it Tarlam..It's not gonna change anytime soon :lol:

[pbmax]

Does anybody have any other links to teams participation levels? That's the only way to judge if McCarthy is getting through. 14 doesn't worry me unless the league average for OTAs is 4 players missing.

motife had a quote that the Ravens had 80 healthy bodies. What's our total after Collins showed up?

I would like to see McCarthy have higher than average participation just because it is the first year. However, the units with the biggest adjustment, O Line and RB seem to have nearly everyone there.

Pickett and Woodson missing when they need to learn a new defense is unfortunate. But Bates installed his scheme last year without the benefit of an extra minicamp, so I am not concerned.

I do think that McCarthy has something to learn about PR. There are ways to handle the missing players question that make it seem that participants are making strides while absentees are falling behind, without having to admit you don't know where people are.

You imply that some guys are on a dangerous path, then refuse to elaborate, then cut one four days into training camp. Gets a lot of coverage and you haven't really changed anything except perception.

While every coach is in the same boat, you don't need to provide the extra fodder. Holmgren was the master of this. Cowher would just spray spittle on this question. This would have been the question to take Wilde's head off.

[Tarlam!]

Nick, in mny post, I was replying to the article, niot your post. Your post wasn't even in when I hit the reply button, note, only 2 minutes difference.

[Scott Campbell]

I do think that McCarthy has something to learn about PR. There are ways to handle the missing players question that make it seem that participants are making strides while absentees are falling behind, without having to admit you don't know where people are.

You imply that some guys are on a dangerous path, then refuse to elaborate, then cut one four days into training camp. Gets a lot of coverage and you haven't really changed anything except perception.


Outstanding analysis. I wonder if McCarthy had anything to do with this blurb from the JSO article on Boerigter:

"The 6-foot-3, 220-pound Boerigter so far has seemed to be a solid fit for coach Mike McCarthy's West Coast-style offense, displaying the ability to go up and get the football and gain yards after the catch.

He has been able to do so in the team's off-season practices thanks not only to the continued absence of projected No. 3 receiver Rod Gardner, but also because he seems to be quickly developing a level of trust with quarterback Brett Favre.

"Very solid, very consistent," McCarthy said Friday, referring to Boerigter. "Smart guy who plays all three positions. He's definitely what we saw in our evaluation process."



You hear that Gardner?!?!

[pbmax]

Scott, I hope that was intentional. Because it changes the focus to those that are here, now.

When asked about Woodson, Harris and Pickett, McCarthy should have cupped his hand to his ear and said: "Do you hear that, that swoosh? That's Mike Hawkins flying up the depth chart!"

[Tarlam!]

....When asked about Woodson, Harris and Pickett, McCarthy should have cupped his hand to his ear and said: "Do you hear that, that swoosh? That's Mike Hawkins flying up the depth chart!"

Impressive reaction. Of course, you've had time - as much as I have! But I didn't think of it!

What do you do for a living?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Two Bears who missed workouts demoted
By Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com

The move was probably a temporary one but, when the Chicago Bears began their mandatory three-day minicamp Friday, two starters who had bypassed most of the team's voluntary sessions in the offseason were demoted to second-team status.

Tailback Thomas Jones, who rushed for a career-best 1,335 yards last season, was replaced by 2005 first-round draft choice Cedric Benson with the starting offense. On defense, Leon Joe worked at the weakside linebacker spot, supplanting Lance Briggs, who is coming off his first Pro Bowl campaign.

[Scott Campbell]

I'd love to see the entire Bear roster demoted to second team status.

[motife]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5657016

more media rumblings about GB's poor attendance at the OTA's, this from Fox's Adam Schein :


If you asked me on May 1 to name the teams I thought would be in the bottom five of the NFL this year, I would've included both the Bills and Packers.

As June starts, I feel even more confident in that opinion.

For two teams that were horrible last season and changed coaches for the 2006 campaign, the veteran attendance at the voluntary workouts is downright deplorable.

Eleven signature Bills veterans missed workouts last week. And to add insult, Willis McGahee spent the time hanging out with Rich Eisen on NFL Network. Now I love Eisen and the folks at the NFL Network, but McGahee should place greater emphasis on his NFL career. And you would think that learning from and being around new offensive coordinator Steve Fairchild, who is putting in an entirely new system, would be a major priority.

Plus, a whopping 14 Packers missed the Green Bay voluntary workouts. You might think it would be a pressing concern for these players to eradicate the horrendous taste left in everyone's mouth from a year ago.

And don't just take my word for it. Here's what Aaron Kampman told us on Thursday. "Our team has changed with new faces. And our defense is based on fundamentals. You want to get that participation. You need to get the cohesiveness."

This is a terrible sign for both Green Bay and Buffalo.

[Scott Campbell]

Maybe it's time to send a message.

[motife]

Comments from the Packer Report and Harry Sydney on poor attendance at the OTA's :

Packer Report :

Fourteen practices total are scheduled in Green Bay over three weeks before the more serious business of training camp begins later this summer.

The OTA’s being held now by the team are technically voluntary, thus the most prominent headlines that have been circulating are related to those players who are not at practice and the reasons why. Outside of who is in better shape than a year ago and who is out of shape, those “missing in action” are the only compelling story this time of year.

A bigger story, though, should be exactly why these practices are voluntary. If they truly are important to the team’s success and unity for the upcoming season, then attendance at mini-camps would be a part of each player’s contract and league rules. As it stands now, many players have an option to attend, which gives coaches, fans, and the media justifiable reasons to question why a team leader like Al Harris is not present.

“The number of veterans that have missed, a lot of them are personal situations,” said head coach Mike McCarthy. “We had a number of things come up. A lot of it, too, is scheduling. Any time you have a new coach who puts in a totally different program, you’re going to have scheduling issues. I’ve talked a number of times to the football team, and every team has different issues, and one of ours is communication. We need to do a better job communicating to one another, and I think they’re doing a better job of that. As we move forward and instill our off-season program, obviously I’m looking for better participation.”

McCarthy may not get that participation under voluntary guidelines. He got an extra mini-camp this year being a new coach, but without his entire team there, he is finding it difficult to get everyone on the same page at the start. He has a right to expect more from his team at this stage of his head coaching career.

Harry Sydney :

This is the time when Mike McCarthy finds out just who he can count on. The camp that the Packers are holding this month is totally voluntary and there is no real punishment for not attending except it just puts a question mark by the name of those that aren't here.

Guys like Aaron Kampman understand that last year wasn't good enough. When you hear him talk you can tell that he can't wait for the season to start so he can try to erase that bad taste from mouth. Then I look at some of the rookies and second-year players that are out at practice doing everything they can to soak up as much knowledge as they possible can because they understand the opportunity that they have. I can see the hunger in their eyes. Then I asked myself, ‘Where are the other big-money guys?’


I am somewhat disappointed in some of the veterans that haven’t showed up yet because they didn't seem to place any importance in this camp. I understand that some guys have other obligations at this time but what about priorities? Some guys are traveling, vacationing, whatever, but the fact is that they are only allowed to do these things and have a great lifestyle because football has been very good to them. And because of having a new system, new head coach, new assistants and last year going 4-12, everyone on the roster should be attending this camp especially new guys and young players. There are no excuses that would have allowed Nick Collins, Ryan Pickett or Charles Woodson to not be in camp. Matter of fact before I would have signed them I would have made it mandatory that they be at every camp. WHO IS REALLY COMMITTED???????

motife :

From "media reporting" it appears that McCarthy doesn't command much respect from the players, or alternatively, there's a degree of apathy among team members committing to excellence ala the Steelers and having a kick ass program.

However, on the plus side, Nick Barnett, Brett Favre, Donald Driver, Aaron Kampman, Mark Tauscher, Ahmann Green, Bubba Franks and other team leaders have made a statement to McCarthy and the younger players by attending.

The media should "name names" on the 14 veterans not attending, basically Charles Woodson, Ryan Pickett, Al Harris, Nick Collins and Rod Gardner seem to be the only prominent names missing re: "Will the Packers Implode in 2006"? Mark Roman's non attendance is hardly relavent to any "implosion".

Chad Clifton has shown up despite his surgery is my understanding. Aaron Rodgers, Colin Cole, Scottie Wells, Cullen Jenkins, Corey Williams and even Ahmad Carroll have also attended and shown suport.

[BF4MVP]

I really don't think there's such thing as a totally voluntary workout..The coaches expect full participation..

It's only called voluntary because players can't be fined for missing it..

[motife]

We've previously opined that the Pack are capable of winning the NFC North in 2006, and that their effort in 2005 wasn't as pathetic as their 4-12 record would indicate.

2005 was one weird frigging season wasn't it?
first losing season ever under Brett Favre
#1 pass defense in the NFL under Jim Bates after #32 the previous year
lost 8 games by less than 3 points,
lost Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, Javon Walker, Bubba Franks, Mike Flanagan to injury,
Ted Thompson decimating the offense with his blase attitude toward losing Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera,
Robert Ferguson playing like a wuss on going for the ball, not stepping up to be a starter after losing Javon,
29 interceptions by Favre,
the emergence of Samkon Gado with 586 yards rushing in 5 games,
the emotional firing of Sherman,
the heartbreak of losing Jim Bates as DC,
an apparent non-descript hiring of a head coach from a losing program, not to badmouth Mike McCarthy, but it wasn't a do some handsprings obvious choice,
the bitter taste left by Javon Walker fiasco,
losing Terrence Murphy a 2nd round pick to a career ending injury,
the soap opera of the Favre holdout,
followed by a very promising NFL draft.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If I owned an NFL team, here's how I would deal with spring practices:

Rent a resort in Hawaii, or some such far away, beautiful place, that is near a large practice field. No other facilities are really needed, although you might need to lease blocking sleds and such from Univeristy of Hawaii.

Allow players to bring over their families for a three week training camp/ vacation in May.

You could hold practice sessions every day, and still leave plenty of time for recreation. It would be a great bonding time, you'd get strong participation, and have more time together than with the current fragmented spring practices.

[woodbuck27]

If I owned an NFL team, here's how I would deal with spring practices:

Rent a resort in Hawaii, or some such far away, beautiful place, that is near a large practice field. No other facilities are really needed, although you might need to lease blocking sleds and such from Univeristy of Hawaii.

Allow players to bring over their families for a three week training camp/ vacation in May.

You could hold practice sessions every day, and still leave plenty of time for recreation. It would be a great bonding time, you'd get strong participation, and have more time together than with the current fragmented spring practices.


Now there you have it ! Someone with the sense to step up to the plate with a home run attitude.

Let me see. That would be abouit 110 Familys dropping off the face of their normal earth for a three week vacation on the Isle's of sun and surf. Children out of school a little early may be a problem but the cause is awesome. It's all for the Packers.

Work out the cost of that HH and see how it shakes out with the HEADS UP here and submit that idea to the Packers suggestion box.

Sincerely, I now am of the opinion that all the usual suspects mentioned, Woodson,Harris,Pickett,Gardner etc. all needed to be at this special voluntary OTA to throw maximum support towards a REAL recovery from all that was, last season. Unless the excuse was unusual.

I'm not impressed at all with the absence of Woodson,Pickett or Gardner. This is BS and questions and strategy to amend this sort of behaviour should certainly be pursued.

[Rastak]

We've previously opined that the Pack are capable of winning the NFC North in 2006, and that their effort in 2005 wasn't as pathetic as their 4-12 record would indicate.

2005 was one weird frigging season wasn't it?
first losing season ever under Brett Favre
#1 pass defense in the NFL under Jim Bates after #32 the previous year
lost 8 games by less than 3 points,
lost Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, Javon Walker, Bubba Franks, Mike Flanagan to injury,
Ted Thompson decimating the offense with his blase attitude toward losing Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera,
Robert Ferguson playing like a wuss on going for the ball, not stepping up to be a starter after losing Javon,
29 interceptions by Favre,
the emergence of Samkon Gado with 586 yards rushing in 5 games,
the emotional firing of Sherman,
the heartbreak of losing Jim Bates as DC,
an apparent non-descript hiring of a head coach from a losing program, not to badmouth Mike McCarthy, but it wasn't a do some handsprings obvious choice,
the bitter taste left by Javon Walker fiasco,
losing Terrence Murphy a 2nd round pick to a career ending injury,
the soap opera of the Favre holdout,
followed by a very promising NFL draft.


Damn, that was summed up well.....

[pbmax]

motife, can I steal that and use it for my email signature? : )

As for the absences, Lori Nickel has a piece out tonight that puts the Packers roster at 100. With 14 missing, that's 86 players in Green Bay the first of four weeks.

motife had a snippet earlier that the Ravens were thrilled to get 80 players to show up.

And Mike Sherman had 8 practices in his tenure for the 2nd minicamp/OTA. McCarthy has 14 scheduled over 4 weeks. And that is after an extra minicamp, which he gets by virtue of being a new coach.

So while I am with Woodbuck that esp. the defensive newbies need to get in the extra work, they have already had a normal offseason of minicamp/OTAs. So my level of concern isn't what it was at the beginning of this OTA week.

If Woodson, Pickett (Woodson Pickett, sounds like a bluesman), Gardner et.al. make it in for another week of OTA, I think you would have to call it successful.

[pbmax]

....When asked about Woodson, Harris and Pickett, McCarthy should have cupped his hand to his ear and said: "Do you hear that, that swoosh? That's Mike Hawkins flying up the depth chart!"

Impressive reaction. Of course, you've had time - as much as I have! But I didn't think of it!

What do you do for a living?
Thank you Tarlam. By day I work in IT. Between actual work and evenings, I am, like everyone else, the Assistant Coach and GM of the Green Bay Packers.

[woodbuck27]

" Thank you Tarlam. By day I work in IT. Between actual work and evenings, I am, like everyone else, the Assistant Coach and GM of the Green Bay Packers." pbmax

And a really fine poster . . . as well. Really glad to see you over here pbmax.

Your perspectives on topics, are cut from a different sort of cloth that provoke thought and deeper understanding in me and you do so with real class and style.

[Guiness]

Nick, the current system sets up an annoying, confrontational situation. That is the problem.

[snip...]

OTN (On The Nose!) HH. That's the best desc. I've seen of the effect of 'voluntary' practices.

I'm sure you're right that the coaches would like players there all the time to perfectly hone skills. I'm just as sure the players look at the calender and say "another camp? Can't I have 5 minutes of peace for crying out loud?" Players take a beating, and need time to recover, both mentally and physically.

[Guiness]

Harry Sydney made a fool of himself, again, in the article Motife quote by saying he would have made in mandatory for them to be at every camp before they signed.

YOU CAN'T YOU BONE HEAD!!! IT'S NOT ALLOWED! :roll:

If I wasn't convinced he is in idiot before, I am now.

[Patler]

Harry Sydney made a fool of himself, again, in the article Motife quote by saying he would have made in mandatory for them to be at every camp before they signed.

YOU CAN'T YOU BONE HEAD!!! IT'S NOT ALLOWED! :roll:

If I wasn't convinced he is in idiot before, I am now.

Well, not completely. Apparently it is allowed to tie certain "workout" payments to attendance at the "voluntary" camps. If you can do it with a large enough bonus, it might make it very mandatory!

[Guiness]

Mmm - you're right Sham. Those $250K offseason workout attendance bonus's Hunt gave up every year.

It certainly seems to be a loophole. I'm surprised teams don't make more use of them. I wonder why...especially for a guy like Gardner. I tend to think the NFLPA would have something to say if teams started making heavy use of them.

[Patler]

Mmm - you're right Sham. Those $250K offseason workout attendance bonus's Hunt gave up every year.

It certainly seems to be a loophole. I'm surprised teams don't make more use of them. I wonder why...especially for a guy like Gardner. I tend to think the NFLPA would have something to say if teams started making heavy use of them.

Hunts $250k as I recall was contingent on spending a certain number of days in GB participating in their workout program. If iw related to attending 10 or 12 days of 14 inthe OTAs, perhaps it would have been more "worth it" to him. .

However, I think there is a maximum bonus amount for off season participation, so maybe you could never get high enough to entice a guy like Hunt to participate!

[Harlan Huckleby]

get high enough to entice a guy like Hunt to participate!

Hey, that's thinking outside the box! A little reefer might lure some of those no-shows. Sort of goes along with my idea for a vacation/training camp in HAwaii. What's done in Hawaii stays in Hawaii.