Deputy Nutz - Jeremiah Wright connection

[Harlan Huckleby]

According to CNN exit polls from Indiana and North Carolina, Sen. Hillary Clinton has an early advantage in both states.

http://www.gaywired.com/article.cfm?id=18925&section=67

If Clinton should pull an upset in both states, I hope Barack Obama does what's best for the Democratic Party and drops out.

[Joemailman]

You want to disenfranchise the voters in the states that haven't had their primaries yet? I'm very disappointed in you.

[texaspackerbacker]

Wow! Gaywired.com is your website of choice, Harlan? I never would have guessed.

BTW, do you consider yourself a "blue dog" Democrat?

[Harlan Huckleby]

is that like a log cabin republican?

[texaspackerbacker]

Actually no. The post above was two disconnected thoughts.

The "blue dog" Democrats were the ones who sided with Reagan in the 80s.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ya, I know bout blue dogs.

Indiana 3% of votes in: Clinton 61%, Obama 39%

But that's probably because the Indiana cracker vote lives in that crazy early time zone. Obama's commies live near Chicago.

[Joemailman]

When do the votes from the white wine-sipping elitists come in?

[texaspackerbacker]

I find myself in the strange situation of rooting for Hillary tonight too--mainly to drag on the race--you know, Rush's Operation Chaos.

I'm betting she wins by 8 or 10% in Indiana and loses by 2-4% in North Carolina.

[red]

hell no obama should not quit if he loses tonight.

i think he can lose both contest 100% to nothing and he'd still be winning overall

should hilary quit if she doesn't make a sizable dent in obama's lead? like 50 points

[Harlan Huckleby]

hell no obama should not quit if he loses tonight.

I was just yanking your chain. Mission accomplished. :P


Obama is favorite for nomination regardless of what happens tonight.


Hillary is up by 16 pts with 11% of votes in Indiana!

[red]

hell no obama should not quit if he loses tonight.

I was just yanking your chain. Mission accomplished. :P


Obama is favorite for nomination regardless of what happens tonight.


Hillary is up by 16 pts with 11% of votes in Indiana!

have the big obama ares even started to report in yet? i have cnn on, but i'm not paying attention to details

like gary, indy, bloomington, and west lafeyette

it was interesting to see the exit pols that showed that most people fekt clinton was playing dirty, but they appear to still be voting for her. guess people really don't care if their politicians are snakes

and i don't like that thought of some dude yanking my chain. now if its a lady rat doing the yanking, i wouldn't mind, but not a dude

[texaspackerbacker]

CNN just flashed on the screen that 45% of Clinton supporters say they would vote for Obama, while 70% of Obama supporters say they would vote for Clinton.

Very interesting. If true, maybe I should be rooting for Obama--actually, I think I am in the long term, for the Dem nomination--but I'm for Hillary tonight.

[red]

alright, the big obama counties aren't in at all yet. obama could swing this

obama just won NC

[red]

CNN just flashed on the screen that 45% of Clinton supporters say they would vote for Obama, while 70% of Obama supporters say they would vote for Clinton.

Very interesting. If true, maybe I should be rooting for Obama--actually, I think I am in the long term, for the Dem nomination--but I'm for Hillary tonight.

see and i fall into the opposite. if obama doesn't win i'll either not be voting or voting for mccain

i do not want hillary in office, i don't trust her at all. and i think she'll say or do anything to get votes

i fully expect to turn on the TV one morning and see hillary standing on top of a myan temple with a knife in one hand and her daughters still beating heart in her other hand. then kicks the kid down the step and raises the heart up the the vote gods

[Joemailman]

NBC is calling NC for Obama.

[red]

by my count, if the numbers stay the way they are now with clinton winning indianna 55-45 and obama winning nc 65-35

obama still wins the night and adds around 20 delegates to his total lead

cnn just showed that if obama wins nc 55-45 and clinton win indy and all the remaining states 55-45 there is no way she can come close to catching obama

[Freak Out]

CNN just flashed on the screen that 45% of Clinton supporters say they would vote for Obama, while 70% of Obama supporters say they would vote for Clinton.

Very interesting. If true, maybe I should be rooting for Obama--actually, I think I am in the long term, for the Dem nomination--but I'm for Hillary tonight.

see and i fall into the opposite. if obama doesn't win i'll either not be voting or voting for mccain

i do not want hillary in office, i don't trust her at all. and i think she'll say or do anything to get votes

i fully expect to turn on the TV one morning and see hillary standing on top of a myan temple with a knife in one hand and her daughters still beating heart in her other hand. then kicks the kid down the step and raises the heart up the the vote gods

I don't trust any of the big three really. I'll take Obama over Hillary or Mac though. I"d like Mac to give me a reason to vote for him but he just won't do it....and I shudder when I think of him licking the boots of Dubya when he really should have cut his heart out. I want to see a serious shake up and Hussein is the only one of the big three showing any signs of doing that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I just saw a map of the states Obama has won this primary season.

He won ALL of the states in the South. With 90+% of African American vote, these states are a lock for him.
And he won a bunch of Western/Mountain States.

These are all red states where the Dems have slim to no chance of collecting electoral votes in general election.

The only important states (competive) that Obama carried are Wisconsin and Missouri, and he just barely carried Missouri.

It might just be a Democratic year because of the unpopularity of the Bush years, so perhaps Obama will win presidency. But Obama looks very vulnerable.

[Joemailman]

A lot has changed since 2004 Harlan. Dems are stronger in the Mountain states than they were 4 years ago. Obama could also win Virginia. It's a different map than in 2004.

[Harlan Huckleby]

A lot has changed since 2004 Harlan. Dems are stronger in the Mountain states than they were 4 years ago. Obama could also win Virginia. It's a different map than in 2004.


not that different. he could steal Virgina & NC, but so what if he loses ohio. he's not going to win any mountain states, those caucuses mean squat.

I think obama is a lousy presidential candidate; which is not to say he will make a lousy president. I heard on NPR this week that he lost the white vote in 27 out of 30 primaries! (can't tell you why they only had data for 30 contests) Obama is PERFECTLY suited for a Democratic primary contest, but wrong for a general election. if the field weren't tilted so strongly to the Dems, he would be toast.

[red]

one thing to look at for the election is voter turn out

lets face it, most americans most years don't vote

however the dems have been very motivated during the primaries and they're turning out in record numbers for primaries

the dems could turn a lot of those historically red states just by having a larger % of the party turning out to vote

i know the republicans don't have much of a fight going on, but the dems are turning out massive numbers compared to the republicans

if the dems can stay motivated you might see a whole new map this year

[texaspackerbacker]

I really don't see that we need any bog shakeup. Any major change in America would necessarily be in a downward direction because we are so close to the top now.

Red, how many of those do you think do you think are crossover Republicans carrying out Rush's Operation Chaos?

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://images.nymag.com/news/imperialcity/obamacrush080512_560.jpg

turnout - if it were just college students and the press turning out, he would be elected King for life. But that high turnout is also gonna include conservative-moderate Dems voting for McCain.

[red]

I really don't see that we need any bog shakeup. Any major change in America would necessarily be in a downward direction because we are so close to the top now.

LOL

[red]

http://images.nymag.com/news/imperialcity/obamacrush080512_560.jpg

turnout - if it were just college students and the press turning out, he will be elected King for life. But that high turnout is also gonna include conservative-moderate Dems voting for McCain.

i think thats just hillaries people blowing smoke and bitching and crting like she does. "you better let her run for prez, or else we'll vote for the other guy" boo hoo. we'll take the ball and go home

we'll see if they still stick to that after the bitch is finally out of the contest

[red]

I really don't see that we need any bog shakeup. Any major change in America would necessarily be in a downward direction because we are so close to the top now.

Red, how many of those do you think do you think are crossover Republicans carrying out Rush's Operation Chaos?

thats definately a probability i do wonder if the enemy is turning out to get one side or the other in because they think they're the weaker canidate

but i don't see that many nursing homes let out that many people to make that much of a difference

[Harlan Huckleby]

i think thats just hillaries people blowing smoke and bitching and crting like she does. "you better let her run for prez, or else we'll vote for the other guy" boo hoo


it won't take that many Dems to make a critical difference. And you don't appreciate that McCain is well-respected by many Dems.

The wild card, I think, is how dirty the campaign will be next fall. it's possible the Republicans will overplay their hand and keep Dems from crossing over. We'll see.

[red]

i think its also interesting that the democratic primaries look exactly like a regular election. hillary wins all the county and states that are always red, and obama wins all the counties and states that vote blue

its kind of funny. maybe its the republicans turning out to get that horrible human being of a woman going up against a pretty stand up guy come this fall

[Harlan Huckleby]

i think its also interesting that the democratic primaries look exactly like a regular election. hillary wins all the county and states that are always red, and obama wins all the counties and states that vote blue

you have that exactly backwards, Einstein.


its kind of funny. maybe its the republicans turning out to get that horrible human being of a woman going up against a pretty stand up guy come this fall

Obama was not so stand-up in Mich & FL. And his dissembling about his relationship with the Rev has tarnished him badly.

The landscape has changed dramatically in the last 4 weeks. A growing number of Republicans have figured-out that Obama can be portrayed as a traditional liberal with racist connections. Whether this is truth or reality, I can't say. Rush Limbaugh's audiance is starting to rebel against "Operation Chaos", they fear Clinton's growing momentum and popularity with middle America.

[red]

i guess its more split then i thought

its just that they keep showing indy and how they voted in 04 compared to today, and it falls right in line with that

they split the south and the northeast

so i guess my theory goes right out the window

obama is really closing that gap in indiana . i don't see the numbers were he can win, but it'll be close enough where clinton at most will only pick up a handfull of delegates from that state

[texaspackerbacker]

Harlan is right about you having it backwards, red, at least on a state level.

Obama is winning all the states that the Republicans will win in the general election, while Hillary is winning all the states where the Dems have a strong chance. The only exception is Illinois--Obama's home state.

[BallHawk]

Harlan is right about you having it backwards, red, at least on a state level.

Obama is winning all the states that the Republicans will win in the general election, while Hillary is winning all the states where the Dems have a strong chance. The only exception is Illinois--Obama's home state.

So I guess the Dems have a strong chance in Texas, right?

[red]

well, clinton won tennessee, texas, oklahoma, arkansas, alaska, arizona, new mexico, florida, ohio. so she is winning the red states. but she has won around that many blue states too

even though ohio and florida are red states through fraud

so i'd say its kind of scattered

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think Obama may yet knock Clinton out of the race tonight.

He is winning by 20 points in NC, and has closed to 6 in Indiana. Clinton had high bar, she needed strong win in Indiana and strong effort in NC to continue. Both are in peril.

[red]

I think Obama may yet knock Clinton out of the race tonight.

He is winning by 20 points in NC, and has closed to 6 in Indiana. Clinton had high bar, she needed strong win in Indiana and strong effort in NC to continue. Both are in peril.

and in his speech right now he's going hard after her blue collar base

[Harlan Huckleby]

well, clinton won tennessee, texas, oklahoma, arkansas, alaska, arizona, new mexico, florida, ohio. so she is winning the red states. but she has won around that many blue states too

even though ohio and florida are red states through fraud

so i'd say its kind of scattered

no it's not scattered. Clinton wins states in West and SW with high hispanic population. And she is generally cleaning up in midwest, other than Il & WI.

Obama has won most of states in S with high black population.

Clinton has won most of the big blue states - NY, NJ, CA, PA, OH, the trend is clear.

There are exceptions, but the election has been like taking a census, very predictable.

[red]

scattered was a poor choice or word, i wasn't look at it like a map.

i should have said split up

[Harlan Huckleby]

wow, Obama has closed to 4 pts in Indiana, HUGE win in NC.

Clinton's longshot chance is done. She will probably continue the campaign, but the SuperDelegates are swinging to Obama tomorrow. It's over.

[red]

wow, Obama has closed to 4 pts in Indiana, HUGE win in NC.

Clinton's longshot chance is done. She will probably continue the campaign, but the SuperDelegates are swinging to Obama tomorrow. It's over.

she should have quit 2 months ago, she had no chance then either, but she kept going on and tried to drag obama all through the mud

she'll continue on after tonight too

she'll go stump now in the state with the last primary, she'll give up the others. she'll lose the others, then win the last one big and say

LOOK AT ME, I HAVE ALL THE MOMENTUM. i should be the canidate

[Harlan Huckleby]

she should have quit 2 months ago

your arrogance, so characteristic of the whole Obama movement, may very well be the downfall of Obama next fall.

[red]

she should have quit 2 months ago

your arrogance, so characteristic of the whole Obama movement, may very well be the downfall of Obama next fall.

the numbers showed two months ago that it was next to impossible for her to win. maybe it was a month ago, but for a long time the numbers just didn't show that she had any chance to win. she would have had to win like 70% of the rest of the delegates. and thats just not going to happen

the republicans win one primary, and the next one they lose, they quit. they figured it out. why can't she?

[BallHawk]

She really needs to step down now. Anything more, at this point, is bad for the party.

[hoosier]

Obama's gonna take Indiana as well, I have a feeling. Yeah, Hillary's goose be cooked. Harlan, you speak of burning bridges now, but I predict you will feel somewhat differently come November. Maybe not, but a strong hunch.

[Harlan Huckleby]

the numbers showed two months ago that it was next to impossible for her to win. maybe it was a month ago, but for a long time the numbers just didn't show that she had any chance to win. she would have had to win like 70% of the rest of the delegates. and thats just not going to happen

you have bought into the Obama spinners. They discount FL & MI, and promoted the misconception that the Super Delegates had to follow the pledge delegates. Both sleazy tactics, in my opinion.

She had a small but real chance at nomination. Had she won NC today, she would have been right in the thick of it.

[red]

Obama's gonna take Indiana as well, I have a feeling. Yeah, Hillary's goose be cooked. Harlan, you speak of burning bridges now, but I predict you will feel somewhat differently come November. Maybe not, but a strong hunch.

i think she'll win the state. looking at the hard numbers i'm not sure if obama can make up the whole difference of 40,000 votes

but he might be able to close the gap to 49-51 or even a split

[Harlan Huckleby]

She really needs to step down now. Anything more, at this point, is bad for the party.

nah, nothing wrong with continuing the campaign. But the atmosphere will be different, it really is more of a formality, a chance for remaining voters to be heard.

[hoosier]

Obama's gonna take Indiana as well, I have a feeling. Yeah, Hillary's goose be cooked. Harlan, you speak of burning bridges now, but I predict you will feel somewhat differently come November. Maybe not, but a strong hunch.

i think she'll win the state. looking at the hard numbers i'm not sure if obama can make up the whole difference of 40,000 votes

but he might be able to close the gap to 49-51 or even a split

The counties that remain to be counted are going to go fairly heavily for Obama. I'm not saying he has it won, just that her lead in IN is far from insurmountable with a full quarter of the state's vote still to count.

[BallHawk]

They discount FL & MI, and promoted the misconception that the Super Delegates had to follow the pledge delegates. Both sleazy tactics, in my opinion.

Ok, if you wanna use Florida, fine, but his name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Explain how it is then fair to count those votes.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Obama's gonna take Indiana as well, I have a feeling. Yeah, Hillary's goose be cooked. Harlan, you speak of burning bridges now, but I predict you will feel somewhat differently come November. Maybe not, but a strong hunch.

I truly don't know what I'm going to do. I really want to vote for McCain. But there are long term issues like health care that make it a tough moral choice.

I think Obama could actually be positive for the IRaq situation, I don't have a problem with a timetable for withdrawal as long as it is long enough. But I do worry about spoiling the progess we're making.

My main problem with Obama is Obamamania, and the narrow-minded people on the left promoting him.

[BallHawk]

She really needs to step down now. Anything more, at this point, is bad for the party.

nah, nothing wrong with continuing the campaign. But the atmosphere will be different, it really is more of a formality, a chance for remaining voters to be heard.

Yes, there is something wrong, it continues to force Obama to focus on the nomination process and continues the badmouthing back and forth. Obama needs to get this nomination locked up and hide away for a week. Then he'll come back and be ready to go against McCain.

[red]

the numbers showed two months ago that it was next to impossible for her to win. maybe it was a month ago, but for a long time the numbers just didn't show that she had any chance to win. she would have had to win like 70% of the rest of the delegates. and thats just not going to happen

you have bought into the Obama spinners. They discount FL & MI, and promoted the misconception that the Super Delegates had to follow the pledge delegates. Both sleazy tactics, in my opinion.

She had a small but real chance at nomination. Had she won NC today, she would have been right in the thick of it.

redo MI, and florida, those will both be very close races also. they won't give hillary enough either, if she even win them. obama might take michigan with detroit, ann arbor, lansing, east lansing, kalamazoo, and the flint area. theres the massive chunk of your population in michigan. and those are large black areas or college towns

clinton just wants the primaries that have already been done to count, where she won hands down in michigan, because she cheated. obama followed the party rules and was not on the ballot. if they fuck up and count what was already been done in those 2 states, then shes back in the race and can win. however, if they do the right thing and have a do over with both names on the ballot, she would have to win huge in both state. and thats not going to happen

[Harlan Huckleby]

They discount FL & MI, and promoted the misconception that the Super Delegates had to follow the pledge delegates. Both sleazy tactics, in my opinion.

Ok, if you wanna use Florida, fine, but his name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Explain how it is then fair to count those votes.

there aren't any fair resolutions. a revote was least unfair. I agree counting vote is not right, need some compromise.

[BallHawk]

They discount FL & MI, and promoted the misconception that the Super Delegates had to follow the pledge delegates. Both sleazy tactics, in my opinion.

Ok, if you wanna use Florida, fine, but his name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Explain how it is then fair to count those votes.

there aren't any fair resolutions. a revote was least unfair. I agree counting vote is not right, need some compromise.

50/50 Split.

[Harlan Huckleby]

She really needs to step down now. Anything more, at this point, is bad for the party.

nah, nothing wrong with continuing the campaign. But the atmosphere will be different, it really is more of a formality, a chance for remaining voters to be heard.

Yes, there is something wrong, it continues to force Obama to focus on the nomination process and continues the badmouthing back and forth. Obama needs to get this nomination locked up and hide away for a week. Then he'll come back and be ready to go against McCain.

there is no harm in having a contest for the remaining primaries. The heat is off Obama. The problem would have been in continuing the fight up to the convention, and that possibility is over tonight.

[red]

They discount FL & MI, and promoted the misconception that the Super Delegates had to follow the pledge delegates. Both sleazy tactics, in my opinion.

Ok, if you wanna use Florida, fine, but his name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Explain how it is then fair to count those votes.

there aren't any fair resolutions. a revote was least unfair. I agree counting vote is not right, need some compromise.

they were talking that michigan has a vote coming up in august i think it is, and if the dems allow it, they could redo it then

that to me would be most fair, and give both camps enough time to properly campaign

[Harlan Huckleby]

50/50 Split.
:lol: the battle-cry of the Obamatrons.

Obama's lawyerly effort to kill the Michigan Legislator's attempt paid off.

[BallHawk]

She really needs to step down now. Anything more, at this point, is bad for the party.

nah, nothing wrong with continuing the campaign. But the atmosphere will be different, it really is more of a formality, a chance for remaining voters to be heard.

Yes, there is something wrong, it continues to force Obama to focus on the nomination process and continues the badmouthing back and forth. Obama needs to get this nomination locked up and hide away for a week. Then he'll come back and be ready to go against McCain.

there is no harm in having a contest for the remaining primaries. The heat is off Obama. The problem would have been in continuing the fight up to the convention, and that possibility is over tonight.

A fair point and Clinton does have the right to carry on but I think you could agree that the best thing for the party would be for Clinton to suspend her campaign.

[red]

50/50 Split.
:lol: the battle-cry of the Obamatrons.

Obama's lawyerly effort to kill the Michigan Legislator's attempt paid off.

that seems like the worst way, you mine as well not even count them then. it doesn't accomplish anything

[BallHawk]

50/50 Split.
:lol: the battle-cry of the Obamatrons.

Obama's lawyerly effort to kill the Michigan Legislator's attempt paid off.

Obama did the strategic move. Oh well, that's how it is. But, at this point, is there any other solution? They've shot down every other idea.

[Harlan Huckleby]

A fair point and Clinton does have the right to carry on but I think you could agree that the best thing for the party would be for Clinton to suspend her campaign.


No. How much attention is McCain getting right now? None. Now that Obama is the presumptive nominee, he ought to do pretty well in the votes, and the media attention is good publicity in the continuing competition, even if most of drama is out of it.

[BallHawk]

50/50 Split.
:lol: the battle-cry of the Obamatrons.

Obama's lawyerly effort to kill the Michigan Legislator's attempt paid off.

that seems like the worst way, you mine as well not even count them then. it doesn't accomplish anything

It seats the delegates. At this point it's not about how the delegates vote, it's whether they are at the convention in Denver.

[texaspackerbacker]

Well, it's looking like I was off in my prediction. Obama is winning North Carolina by considerably more than Hillary is winning Indiana. Thus, Obamanation can claim a medium size victory--which is about all they needed, given the lead they already had.

[red]

A fair point and Clinton does have the right to carry on but I think you could agree that the best thing for the party would be for Clinton to suspend her campaign.


No. How much attention is McCain getting right now? None. Now that Obama is the presumptive nominee, he ought to do pretty well in the votes, and the media attention is good publicity in the continuing competition, even if most of drama is out of it.but the press right now coming out between the two dems is mostly negative and only hurting them.

unless it just gets all the ghosts out of the closet now so they can continue on

[Harlan Huckleby]

It seats the delegates. At this point it's not about how the delegates vote, it's whether they are at the convention in Denver.

"seating the delegates" has never been the issue. Everybody knows they will be seated.

[Harlan Huckleby]

but the press right now coming out between the two dems is mostly negative and only hurting them.

Obama's negative press has been his own doing.

[hoosier]

Obama's gonna take Indiana as well, I have a feeling. Yeah, Hillary's goose be cooked. Harlan, you speak of burning bridges now, but I predict you will feel somewhat differently come November. Maybe not, but a strong hunch.

I truly don't know what I'm going to do. I really want to vote for McCain. But there are long term issues like health care that make it a tough moral choice.

I think Obama could actually be positive for the IRaq situation, I don't have a problem with a timetable for withdrawal as long as it is long enough. But I do worry about spoiling the progess we're making.

My main problem with Obama is Obamamania, and the narrow-minded people on the left promoting him.

I think what you see as narrow-mindedness could also be seen, if you look at it from a slightly different angle, as enthusiasm. Some of which comes from people who have never cared about politics or had a political thought in their lives before now. That enthusiasm could have very positive effects on the political process in this country. Of course it might also burn out and turn into disappointment and cynicism. Or even worse. But if I have to choose between Obamamania and the last two elections cycles, I know which one I'm choosing.

[red]

they just said on cnn that rush told his listeners to vote for hillary, not obama like you said tex. and they just showed in the exit polls the 11% of the voters were republican and 55% of them did vote for hillary

[Harlan Huckleby]

enthusiasm for villifying McCain & Clinton is ridiculous terms. these are good/evil people, liberal versions of Tex.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'd say McCain is getting plenty of attention. And what he's getting is a lot better than the flesh tearing on the Democrat side.

[red]

I'd say McCain is getting plenty of attention. And what he's getting is a lot better than the flesh tearing on the Democrat side.

see HH

even a full fledged rightie thinks its a great thing that the dems are cutting each others throats

jesus christ, this lanny davis, a clinton supporter is a complete dickhead

[BallHawk]

Lake County not in 'til 11. :roll:

[red]

Lake County not in 'til 11. :roll:

what the hell is going on in that county?

huge turnout maybe? mob shipping in dem voters from chicago?

give us some reason

[texaspackerbacker]

enthusiasm for villifying McCain & Clinton is ridiculous terms. these are good/evil people, liberal versions of Tex.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "liberal version of me" because that person would have to have ideas/beliefs/positions that are completely self-contradicting. A pro-American liberal is practically an oxymoron. I'm all about America first. The closest thing to a liberal version of me is Lieberman, and he is what he is because he is a Jew who doesn't like the Dem/lib attitude toward Israel.

[Joemailman]

Money may determine how long she stays in. If she loses Indiana, contributions may dry up. The campaign is already well in debt.

[red]

enthusiasm for villifying McCain & Clinton is ridiculous terms. these are good/evil people, liberal versions of Tex.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "liberal version of me" because that person would have to have ideas/beliefs/positions that are completely self-contradicting. A pro-American liberal is practically an oxymoron. I'm all about America first. The closest thing to a liberal version of me is Lieberman, and he is what he is because he is a Jew who doesn't like the Dem/lib attitude toward Israel.

i think he ,ment completely opposite of you

anti-american, and wears a black rounded hood instead of a white pointy one

[BallHawk]

How quickly the tune of the media changes....

[Freak Out]

Clinton is done and needs to hang it up. Every "right" minded person in the country needs to back Hussein and steamroll the haters like Rush into the garbage heap where he belongs.

[red]

somethings fishy in lake county

i don't like it

[Freak Out]

somethings fishy in lake county

i don't like it

Oh oh..........Think a Daley got involved?

[BallHawk]

somethings fishy in lake county

i don't like it

Eh, at this point the race is over. At least it SHOULD be.

[red]

somethings fishy in lake county

i don't like it

Eh, at this point the race is over. At least it SHOULD be.

it honestly doesn't matter except for bragging rights

we're talking about 1 delegate hinging on whats happening right now

[Joemailman]

Hill's up about 17,000 votes with 5% yet to report. She'll probably squeak it out, for what it's worth. She's canceled appearances on the morning talk shows tomorrow. The writing is on the wall...

[BallHawk]

Hill's up about 17,000 votes with 5% yet to report. She'll probably squeak it out, for what it's worth. She's canceled appearances on the morning talk shows tomorrow. The writing is on the wall...

It's about time. I'm sick of those whole thing.

Now, onto McCain.

[red]

Hill's up about 17,000 votes with 5% yet to report. She'll probably squeak it out, for what it's worth. She's canceled appearances on the morning talk shows tomorrow. The writing is on the wall...

but i think all the places that would still vote for obama are already counted

that large chunck from lake country is all or mostly from the city of gary, all of gary's votes might all be in. hillary is suppose to win the rest of the county. so the gap might not close much more, if any

[red]

its important to ask is they round up or down at all

by my count hill as 50.69% of the vote

if she slips below 50.5, is it a 50-50 tie? or is it still 51-49?

[red]

the mayor of gary is either an absolute idiot or he's jerking us around

or he's screwing with something

[red]

they finally pulled there heads out of their asses in gary after the guys on cnn were just beating the hell out of the mayor on the phone and all of a sudden the whole vote came in, except the absentee votes

looks like hillary wins by between 15-20 thousand

bout time

so hill gets about 37 delegates from this mess and obama gets 35, or somewhere around there. big whoop

oh, they need to impeach the mayor of gary, but thats for tommorrow

my ass is going to bed

[gex]

The one good thing with this whole process being dragged out is, it gets democratic voters out there voting and caring. Pretty good warm up for November. I've voted Dem my whole life, However now that Clintons done lets make it rain for McCain. How anybody can still vote for Obama, that limp wristed, lying, run of the mill weasel politician baffles my mind. Tex has it right when he says the abomination that is obamanation. Barack hussien osama bin laden.

[gex]

Read this on a board at the Atlantic.com dont know how much is true but I don't know how any one can trust Obama. :shock:

"Let me see: Obama-drug addict in college Obama-turns back to THE flag of the USA Obama-REFUSES to say the pledge of allegance Obama-belonged to all black extreme militant church that "Damns America" for 20 that is TWENTY years folks. Equivalent to black KKK group!! Obama-Strong alliance with Kenya and stayes in constant contact with a militant Muslin cousin named Raila Odinga living there. He also donated 1 million dollars to their militant cause. Obama- REAL name Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama. Obama-Real father extreme Muslim, stepfather militant Muslim brought up in Indonesia (THE most terrorist Muslim country)!! Obama-FOR PRESIDENT OF THE USA, IS EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY COMPLETELY INSANE? 9/11 WOULD BE A PICNIC COMPARED TO WHAT THIS JERK WOULD DO TO THIS COUNTRY!! Obama-Biggest lier you have ever heard on tv. nOTHING HE SPITS OUT HAS BEEN PROVEN!! Obama- His racist wife will not let him wear a usa flag on his lapel... IF THIS TERRORIST ANTI-CHRIST BECOMES PRESIDENT, YOU MIGHT AS WELL BEND OVER AND KISS THIS COUNTRY GOODBYE FOLKS. THIS WILL BE A 3RD WORLD COUNTRY WITHIN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS. MAYBE THE FBI SHOULD CHECK UP ON THE GOING ON IN KENYA WITH THIS OBAMA CHARACTER. HE IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!! lIKE bIN lADEN SAID, KILL THEM FROM THE INSIDE OUT. IF THIS GUY WAS WHITE, HE WOULD NOT EVEN BE ON THE BALLOT AND MOST LIKELY BOOED OF STAGE!!! IF COLIN POWELL WAS RUNNING, HE WOULD HAVE MY VOTE IN A NANO SECOND. BUT THIS GUY OBAMA IS VERY DANGEROUS!!!

Posted by BOO ODama | May 7, 2008 5:40 PM

[hoosier]

Read this on a board at the Atlantic.com dont know how much is true but I don't know how any one can trust Obama. :shock:

"Let me see: Obama-drug addict in college Obama-turns back to THE flag of the USA Obama-REFUSES to say the pledge of allegance Obama-belonged to all black extreme militant church that "Damns America" for 20 that is TWENTY years folks. Equivalent to black KKK group!! Obama-Strong alliance with Kenya and stayes in constant contact with a militant Muslin cousin named Raila Odinga living there. He also donated 1 million dollars to their militant cause. Obama- REAL name Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama. Obama-Real father extreme Muslim, stepfather militant Muslim brought up in Indonesia (THE most terrorist Muslim country)!! Obama-FOR PRESIDENT OF THE USA, IS EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY COMPLETELY INSANE? 9/11 WOULD BE A PICNIC COMPARED TO WHAT THIS JERK WOULD DO TO THIS COUNTRY!! Obama-Biggest lier you have ever heard on tv. nOTHING HE SPITS OUT HAS BEEN PROVEN!! Obama- His racist wife will not let him wear a usa flag on his lapel... IF THIS TERRORIST ANTI-CHRIST BECOMES PRESIDENT, YOU MIGHT AS WELL BEND OVER AND KISS THIS COUNTRY GOODBYE FOLKS. THIS WILL BE A 3RD WORLD COUNTRY WITHIN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS. MAYBE THE FBI SHOULD CHECK UP ON THE GOING ON IN KENYA WITH THIS OBAMA CHARACTER. HE IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!! lIKE bIN lADEN SAID, KILL THEM FROM THE INSIDE OUT. IF THIS GUY WAS WHITE, HE WOULD NOT EVEN BE ON THE BALLOT AND MOST LIKELY BOOED OF STAGE!!! IF COLIN POWELL WAS RUNNING, HE WOULD HAVE MY VOTE IN A NANO SECOND. BUT THIS GUY OBAMA IS VERY DANGEROUS!!!

Posted by BOO ODama | May 7, 2008 5:40 PM

Oh yeah, that's definitely sounding bad for Obama. Wouldn't vote for him after reading that. No way no how. :roll:

[MadtownPacker]

Read this on a board at the Atlantic.com dont know how much is true but I don't know how any one can trust Obama. :shock:

"Obama- His racist wife will not let him wear a usa flag on his lapel...

Posted by BOO ODama | May 7, 2008 5:40 PM
As a male chauvinist pig there is no way in hell I want a pany-ass prez who let's his wife boss him around.

[Joemailman]

There's a sucker born every minute. And they can vote.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Something tells me that the message board poster isn't exactly an Atlantic Monthly subscriber. :roll:

[red]

lol, fox news spin at its finest. you'll see most of these ideas came from their channel

http://mediamatters.org/items/200703200011

http://hubpages.com/hub/Barack-Obama--Top-Ten-Myths

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/11/obama_nabbed_by_the_patriotic.html

http://www.kmbc.com/news/15107187/detail.html

just more proof that if you repeat false lies over and over again, so simple minded people will start to take them as fact

[Harlan Huckleby]

Something tells me that the message board poster isn't exactly an Atlantic Monthly subscriber. :roll:

Don't roll your eyes, jackass.

I posted that message, Bigguns, you snooty latte-sipping elitist. It was late last night, it didn't come out exactly like I wanted, but I think I made my point.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Something tells me that the message board poster isn't exactly an Atlantic Monthly subscriber. :roll:

Don't roll your eyes, jackass.

I posted that message, Bigguns, you snooty latte-sipping elitist. It was late last night, it didn't come out exactly like I wanted, but I think I made my point.

I thought it was woody with all the capitalizations. :wink:

P.S. Tyrone doesn't drink lattes. Tyrone is more of a blue collar dunkin donuts koffee koolata kinda crackhead.

[texaspackerbacker]

Gex, I wish I knew more about your posting history. Your posts smack of sarcasm, but I wouldn't want to wrongly accuse you of that without knowing for sure.

There is plenty of reason to detest Obama without lapsing into the less certain crap which mainly just gives fuel to his followers.

I do thank you, though, for picking up on my big line, the Abomination which is Obamanation.

[MadtownPacker]

Something tells me that the message board poster isn't exactly an Atlantic Monthly subscriber. :roll:

Don't roll your eyes, jackass.

I posted that message, Bigguns, you snooty latte-sipping elitist. It was late last night, it didn't come out exactly like I wanted, but I think I made my point.Sickem boy, sickem!!!!

[Joemailman]

Something tells me that the message board poster isn't exactly an Atlantic Monthly subscriber. :roll:

Don't roll your eyes, jackass.

I posted that message, Bigguns, you snooty latte-sipping elitist. It was late last night, it didn't come out exactly like I wanted, but I think I made my point.

Tyrone is not an elitist...as far as I know.

[MadtownPacker]

Something tells me that the message board poster isn't exactly an Atlantic Monthly subscriber. :roll:

Don't roll your eyes, jackass.

I posted that message, Bigguns, you snooty latte-sipping elitist. It was late last night, it didn't come out exactly like I wanted, but I think I made my point.

Tyrone is not an elitist...as far as I know.Isn't there somebody’s fucking mail you could be losing??

Im sick of people messing with poor Harlan. He is my bitchand if you wanna rough him up you need to pay upfront.

[LEWCWA]

This shit just amazes me....Clinton cheated in MI. Nobody said you had to remove your name. dumbass! I think most Americans think the Dems just f'ed up and need to figure out how to fix FL and MI.

[LEWCWA]

And more BS, You can't even get 90% of people to agree that the sky is blue, so how does Obama get 90%+ of Black vote? These people are voting for the race...

[LEWCWA]

Since the beginning of this mess I have said the only way Dems will loose this election is if the fuck it up. Guess what they have done it!

[Kiwon]

Whoa.....LEWCWA,

Don't hold anything back. How do you really feel? :)

[Joemailman]

And more BS, You can't even get 90% of people to agree that the sky is blue, so how does Obama get 90%+ of Black vote? These people are voting for the race...

89% of blacks voted for Kerry in 2004. Didn't know Kerry was black. He hid it so well.

[falco]

joe, i don't know what John Kerry you were watching back then...

http://seanandfrank.com/images/PhotoDay/BlackJohnKerry.jpg

[red]

This shit just amazes me....Clinton cheated in MI. Nobody said you had to remove your name. dumbass! I think most Americans think the Dems just f'ed up and need to figure out how to fix FL and MI.

not hillary, she now just wants that vote to count.

she agreed with the others not to participate or campaigning in michigan at all, she even said the state didn't matter because the votes wouldn't count.

the other big names stayed off the ballot (obama, richardson, edwards, biden). she satays or jumps back in with biden and are the only two on the ballot.

and now that she can't win the nomination without a huge miricle, she says that the votes should count the way in happened. she says she was on the ballot, its the others fault that they dropped off.

they dropped off because they were all in agreement not to participate, including her

it might not be cheating, but its a very dishonest, slimy move on her part at this point, and just adds to the image that she can't be trusted and will say anything and do anything to win. it might have been wrong to call it cheating, she's just trying to change or go around the rules to her advantage

the only way to fix the michigan issue the proper way is to have a complete revote. not a mail in ballot to a few thousand people, not a recount of what happened before. they have to revote and let them both properly campaigning and be on the ballot

but thats not what she wants, because she'll either lose that or not win it by enough like indiana to make a difference

[Harlan Huckleby]

nothing to see here, move along

[Harlan Huckleby]

89% of blacks voted for Kerry in 2004. Didn't know Kerry was black. He hid it so well.

Joe, may I call you Joe? You know perfectly well in the bottom of your dark heart that this is bullshit.

Kerry, a very liberal democrat, was opposing Bush, in some ways a very conservative Republican. African Americans, for better or worse, have stayed en masse within liberal ideology. They went Kerry over Bush based on party affiliation and ideology.

Clinton and Obama are in the same party and have only marginal differences on issues. OF COURSE blacks are voting 93% for Obama STRICTLY on the basis of racial solidarity.

Drop down and give me 50 pushups. You have disgraced yourself this time.

[Harlan Huckleby]

she agreed with the others not to participate or campaigning in michigan at all

All the candidates honored the pledge.


the other big names stayed off the ballot (obama, richardson, edwards, biden

Clinton, Dodd and Kusinich stayed on the ballot. The candidates decided whether to keep their name on the ballot from calculations of what was in their political interests, period. There was nothing sorted or altruistic either way.


they dropped off because they were all in agreement not to participate, including her

100% Bullshit. Obama removed his name from the ballot because he judged that Clinton would win the straw poll, and it was not in his political interest to participate. He would have stayed if he thought he would win and get the publicity boost.

Ignore the silly spin and use your head.


it might not be cheating, but its a very dishonest, slimy move on her part at this point, and just adds to the image that she can't be trusted

Wow, you have really drunk deeply of the fruity beverage. Careful, that stuff is bad for your teeth, not to mention your mind.


the only way to fix the michigan issue the proper way is to have a complete revote.

Obama worked energetically to block such a revote.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And more BS, You can't even get 90% of people to agree that the sky is blue, so how does Obama get 90%+ of Black vote? These people are voting for the race...

100% correct. But given the history, hell, you can't really blame them. Of course they are excited to see a black with chance to make it to the White House.

(I refer of course to Condi Rice, since Barack is a mulatto. :lol: :twisted: )

[Harlan Huckleby]

Since the beginning of this mess I have said the only way Dems will loose this election is if the fuck it up. Guess what they have done it!

You might be right. But this is kind of like preseason right now. The playoffs are in the fall. Obama vrs McCain will be a different atmosphere, and field is tilted in Dem's direction. Now, are there any more sports metaphors we can use? McCain has lost a step, and its about time we had a black QB.

[texaspackerbacker]

And more BS, You can't even get 90% of people to agree that the sky is blue, so how does Obama get 90%+ of Black vote? These people are voting for the race...

89% of blacks voted for Kerry in 2004. Didn't know Kerry was black. He hid it so well.

It's called being kept down on the "liberal plantation" by the overseers--the so-called "leaders" of the black community--who deliver that 90%+ of the black vote despite the fact that most blacks don't like the policies of the Democrat Party any more than most whites do--ESPECIALLY on "moral issues" like abortion and the gay agenda--where the Dems are very contrary to the good moral views of many blacks.

[red]

:roll:

you buy into everything a crying female tells you HH?

[hoosier]

And more BS, You can't even get 90% of people to agree that the sky is blue, so how does Obama get 90%+ of Black vote? These people are voting for the race...

89% of blacks voted for Kerry in 2004. Didn't know Kerry was black. He hid it so well.

It's called being kept down on the "liberal plantation" by the overseers--the so-called "leaders" of the black community--who deliver that 90%+ of the black vote despite the fact that most blacks don't like the policies of the Democrat Party any more than most whites do--ESPECIALLY on "moral issues" like abortion and the gay agenda--where the Dems are very contrary to the good moral views of many blacks.

Your point of view on this has no doubt evolved through many years of painstaking research in black communities. You wouldn't be pulling the old Marxist trick of dismissing everything that doesn't fit your world view as "false consciousness" now, would you? :lol:

[red]

is rush limbaugh insane? or just an idiot?

he has his opperantion chaos thing, that might have helped clinton win indiana. thats what he wanted, in both states he told his listeners to to go out and vote for clinton to make it harder on obama,

but

then he says that he wants obama to win, because he sees obama as the weaker opponet

?????????????????????????

if he wouldn't have meddled, this contest MIGHT be over right now, with obama taking any bit of momentum left in the race. a win in indiana might have been the definative final nail in the coffin

however, rush gave her, the candidate that he thinks is the stronger one, a sliver of hope that she might be able to build on

is he just nuts? can he control what thoughts come out of his mouth, is he back on the pills, or does he just like to "flip-flop"

seems to me if he thought obama was the weaker candidate that he would tell his viewers to vote for him to get clinton out

[hoosier]

is rush limbaugh insane? or just an idiot?

he has his opperantion chaos thing, that might have helped clinton win indiana. thats what he wanted, in both states he told his listeners to to go out and vote for clinton to make it harder on obama,

but

then he says that he wants obama to win, because he sees obama as the weaker opponet

?????????????????????????

if he wouldn't have meddled, this contest MIGHT be over right now, with obama taking any bit of momentum left in the race. a win in indiana might have been the definative final nail in the coffin

however, rush gave her, the candidate that he thinks is the stronger one, a sliver of hope that she might be able to build on

is he just nuts? can he control what thoughts come out of his mouth, is he back on the pills, or does he just like to "flip-flop"

seems to me if he thought obama was the weaker candidate that he would tell his viewers to vote for him to get clinton out

His strategy seems to have been: prolong the primary process as long as possible and then have the victor (which it's now increasingly clear will be Obama) emerge weakened. Limbaugh's trying to contribute to his weakening by calling him just that. If Hillary had swept IN and NC and gone on to win the primary, Rush would be calling her the weakest candidate. Not insane, just crazy like a pig. It's a desparate strategy for desparate times.

[Joemailman]

89% of blacks voted for Kerry in 2004. Didn't know Kerry was black. He hid it so well.

Joe, may I call you Joe? You know perfectly well in the bottom of your dark heart that this is bullshit.

Kerry, a very liberal democrat, was opposing Bush, in some ways a very conservative Republican. African Americans, for better or worse, have stayed en masse within liberal ideology. They went Kerry over Bush based on party affiliation and ideology.

Clinton and Obama are in the same party and have only marginal differences on issues. OF COURSE blacks are voting 93% for Obama STRICTLY on the basis of racial solidarity.

Drop down and give me 50 pushups. You have disgraced yourself this time.

Took you long enough to respond. :lol: Yes, I am aware that being black helps Obama with blacks. However, they are supporting Obama in a way that they wouldn't back someone like Sharpton. That's mainly because they believe he can win. Early on, many polls were showing Hillary with considerable black support. That all changed when Obama won Iowa.

[Freak Out]

Ayman al-Zawahiri backs Mac.

Well, it turns out that al-Qaeda No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahiri has declared that he is actually on McCain's side in wanting to destroy Iran. Al-Zawahiri is hurt that McCain keeps confusing hyper-Sunni al-Qaeda with radical Shiism: "Ayman al-Zawahiri said al-Qaeda wants to see the destruction of Iran - a Shiite nation battling the terrorists . . . "The dispute between America and Iran is a genuine struggle, and the possibility of the US striking Iran is real," al-Zawahiri said. . ." Al-Zawahiri hopes that the US struggle with Iran will destroy the latter and weaken the former, putting al-Qaeda in a position to administer the coup de grace.

In essence, al-Zawahiri is endorsing McCain's plan to "bomb, bomb, bomb/ bomb, bomb Iran."

http://www.juancole.com/

[Tyrone Bigguns]

And more BS, You can't even get 90% of people to agree that the sky is blue, so how does Obama get 90%+ of Black vote? These people are voting for the race...

Prolly the same way that Bush, Kerry, Reagan, Clinton, etc...got 100% of the white vote.

Strange how it worked out that way. :roll:

[red]

here, i'm looking at some numbers

lets say best case senario for clinton. the votes from the primary night holds up in those states. clinton wins 50-33 in florida, and 55-40 in michigan

michigan had 128 delegates attached to that vote, florida, i think the number is 185 tied to that vote

so rough counts

florida

clinton-92.5
obama-61

clinton nets 32 delegates in florida

michigan

clinton-70.4
obama-51.2

clinton nets about 19 delegates

so she gains around 51 delegates

obama is up by 161 according to cnn. so if you count those two states the way they happened obama is still up by 110

now if you do a revote, the magins will at least be smaller in michigan because obama wasn't even on the ballot and most obama folks didn't even bother to vote at that point.

oh and btw, the clinton party has rejected the latest offer out of michigan on how to count votes. so if you want to play the blame game, at this point, she is the one not letting the people of michigan's vote count. just like when obama's lawyer raised concerns about how a revote would be done, the obama camp was labeled as trying to stop the votes from counting
still a huge lead that would be hard to overcome with whats left

i think, correct me if i'm wrong, there is 217 delegates left that are based on primaries. she would have to win those states 75-25 or so to pull even. without super delegates counted, thogh obama does seem to have the momentum there

[Harlan Huckleby]

red, MI & FL are about more than the delegates, it also about psychology and timing. We've known for a long time that SuperDelegates were going to have the final say. Obama had a lot of reasons for blocking revotes when he did.

Clinton vrs Obama aside, having a nomination where MI & FL votes didn't count is illegitimate. The seating of the delegates is not the whole picture. And there were so many details of the process that are open to interpretation. For instance, why should the Super Delegates be counted before the convention? They are free to switch before then, and have been doing so regularly.

It was a very dirty campaign. NEver seen such a name-calling ordeal before ever. Obama supporters attacked Clinton, as if character assinations against her didn't fall into the "dirty politics" category. Clinton supporters attacked Obama supports.

[red]

i completely agree you have to include fl and mi somehow

one big reason is the democrats in those states could decide to turn their back on the party if they aren't represented, and vote for the other side in the fall.

who ever wins the nomination needs both those states in the fall

the super delegate is a very interesting matter. we'll say for arguments sake, things ended right now, no more primaries. the people would have voted for obama, by like 600,00o more votes. but then lets say the super delegates go the exact opposite way and give clinton the overall win

is that right? what was the point of having the whole primary process if you're just going to throw out the results? talk about your average americans votes not counting for anything. on the otherside, if they split up the SD's at the same propotion as the rest of the delegates, then why even have sd's?

i think the dems need to throw out everything after this election and start over. they're really dropping the ball on this one. they had a golden opportunity to take over after 8 horrible years with bush, and the party is just fucking it up

[red]

oh, and obama never blocked a revote. thats a dirty myth.

michigan legislation shot it down, we have no money for a revote. even one of hillaries supporters in the government here was against it, stating it wouldn't change things enough.

if it won't change things then why spend all the money?

the only thing that i can find is that his lawyer sent a letter to michigan with concerns about a revote, like cost, and the ability to have a fair vote on short notice. the clinton campaign then wrote their own letter claiming that the obama latter was an attempt to block a revote. thats all i can find that comes close to obama blocking it. that and a bunch of people claiming he did, but none that can offer any form of proof

[red]

the plain bottom line fact of the matter is, these two states screwed up by trying to move up. the DNP told them not to, or they'll lose all their delegates. they had 30 days to change dates, and the states held firm trying to call the DNC's bluff.

didn't happen

i wish they would have punished them the same way the republicans did and just take away half the delegates, not all. at least that way the states are still represented, but still punished but not being as important

[Harlan Huckleby]

michigan legislation shot it down, we have no money for a revote.

I followed this story very closely, this is another situation about which there is massive misinformation, and some details open to interpretation.

Money was not the issue. Donors were already lined up to pay for a primary (Clinton supporters from Pennsylvania.)

Damn, I got to go watch letterman. here's a cvople old links to entertain yourself with

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080318/NEWS15/80318042
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/03/michigan-do-ove.html

[red]

heres the letter sent in by obamas camp. this is the so called letter that blocked the revote

TO: Interested Parties

FROM: Robert F. Bauer

RE: Michigan Primary

DA: March 19, 2008

In the short time available, I have reviewed the proposed legislation to establish the June 3, 2008 primary, considering primarily those issues that bear on the central question of whether this election can be conducted successfully without undue risk of legal challenges, including those challenges arising out of errors or other breakdown induced by the schedule the State has proposed.

No one disputes that the election will have to be hurriedly prepared; and it is further accepted that it is, in material respects, unprecedented in conception and proposed structure. Michigan will be, for example, the first to state to have re-run an election in circumstances like these, to redress violations of party rules, and it will be the first to do so with the state supplying the legislative and administrative support but with private parties underwriting the costs with "soft money". Whether the state can achieve its goals here depends on the nature and seriousness of the legal and administrative questions presented by this initiative—questions that, raised after the election, could put at risk the running of the election, undermine acceptance of the results if the election is held, and in both cases effectively deny Michigan voters, a second consecutive time, meaningful participation in the nominating process.

For the reasons discussed briefly below, there are such questions and they are serious both in nature and in their potential, if not likely, impact on the June election. . . . proposal.

[red]

you know, in all honesty the state doesn't need to wait for obama's support

if they want their states to be taken seriously and have their votes count, then they need to just do it. they don't need both their blessings

just do it. if the DNC says to do it, then it should happen. but the dnc needs to be there looking over everything like a hawk to make sure things are legit

and i say let clintons supporters pay for it if they want, as long as its donations to the dnc, so that the party has control over how the money is used.

let her and her followers waste some more of their money

[texaspackerbacker]

I heard that they both have state level elections in August, so it would be entirely feasible to have a re-vote. Supposedly, Hillary was for it, and Obama against it.

I doubt the Dems win Florida regardless, but if disenfranchising the state in the primary costs them Michigan, that would be big. My best projection, though, is that the Dems take Michigan even if the voters are dissed and pissed. However, McCain has enough states that he can afford to lose Michigan.

[red]

I heard that they both have state level elections in August, so it would be entirely feasible to have a re-vote. Supposedly, Hillary was for it, and Obama against it.

I doubt the Dems win Florida regardless, but if disenfranchising the state in the primary costs them Michigan, that would be big. My best projection, though, is that the Dems take Michigan even if the voters are dissed and pissed. However, McCain has enough states that he can afford to lose Michigan.

i do know that michigan has a vote in august

of course they won't win FL, its pretty clear the folks in florida will do anything to make sure the republicans win. watch the documentry hijacking democracy. they people are definately on the left, and some of their motives and tones get tiresome at times. but the meat and potatoes is very interesting, if you can weed through the rest to get to it

and i do find it amazing that in florida, in every single small market county. if they had a high number of registered democrats living there, they somehow all managed to vote the other way in the last 2 election. for instance i remember one county that was around 90% registered democrats, yrt the offical results said that bush won 90% of the vote. or how in the 2000 election one county actually posted a negative number of votes for al gore. i'm pretty sure thats impossible

[texaspackerbacker]

You'll have to look long and hard to find southerners, most of whom are good normal America-loving Americans, who are dumb enough to vote for that all-world IDIOT, Algore--regardless of what party they are registered as.

Rather than try to counter the lame conspiracy theory you apparently are gullible enough to buy into, red, I'll just say: We're damn lucky we didn't get saddled with that loon, Gore, in the White House. With him, America would have degenerated into a third world country after the economic hit of 9/11. The dipshit would have RAISED taxes instead of cutting them as Bush did--thus, ruining the economy, even on the off chance we could have survived without repeats of 9/11 under Gore.

[red]

look at the fucking numbers tex, they don't add up

if you can even add. how can you explain one county have negative votes for one guy. how can you explain multiple counties that have more votes for president then they had ballots cast?

these are not just some claims made up by quacks, these are cold hard facts, and most of the irregularities seem to favor bush. all in a state run by his little brother, imagine that

this is what cracks me up about people like you. you wave the american flag around and call others un american. but you don't give a flying fuck about democracy, you don't want everyone to be able to vote, only people like you. there is absolute hard proof that something went very wrong in florida and ohio last election, but because your guy won, all is well and those that disagree are just loons

how you can sit there and say you love this country and all it stands for where there is absolute proof that peoples votes were not counted correctly, or thrown out, or deemed irrelevent is very sad. you are the people the piss on the graves of every solder who has died to this country and for our right to vote, not the other way around

[Harlan Huckleby]

heres the letter sent in by obamas camp. this is the so called letter that blocked the revote

Obama's attorney raised many objections, He issued several long memos, I've tried to make sense of them. I don't know where you came up with this "so called letter", as if you've unmasked some phony or weak smoking gun. Lame.

Some of Obama's objections on eligibility had substance, but the Clinton camp was willing to compromise, they needed the revote on any terms.

All Obama had to do to block the revote was to withhold support. The MI State Senate Leader said directly the day that the legislation died that it would not be pursued because it did not have the support of both campaigns.

If Clinton had stood against a revote as Obama did, the media firestorm would have been deafening. Some columnist made brief mention of Obama's hardball maneuvering, but for the most part, the press turned a blind eye.

[texaspackerbacker]

I doubt the validity of those "facts". Conspiracy theories are like that--based on a foundation of lies.

Nevertheless, if it DID happen the way you and the other true believers of your little conspiracy think, the country is damn fortunate that the whole thing was perpetrated, as the total idiot, Gore, really would have ruined the country--instead of preventing repeats of 9/11 and bringing the country and the economy back so resoundingly, as Bush has done.

[Harlan Huckleby]

you know, in all honesty the state doesn't need to wait for obama's support

if they want their states to be taken seriously and have their votes count, then they need to just do it. they don't need both their blessings

Manufacturing a revote in the middle of an election is a dubious undertaking. The local politicians in both FL & MI made clear they were only going to proceed with a process if it was sanctioned as fair by both campaigns. That is understandable.

It is asking a lot for the candidates to negotiate the terms of their own contest. Obviously every rule is going to favor one side or another a little bit.

I was disappointed that Obama didn't show a little more character. I understand why he did what he did, I know Clinton would have done the same, I have mixed feelings about the ordeal.

[red]

i said "so called letter", because thats where they whole notion came from of rejecting a revote. unless i missed it, i don't see were it says, nope, we won't do it no matter what

i see a list of concerns

if you look through hillary colored glasses maybe you see reject and death threats. i don't know

she has also rejected at least 1 maybe two ideas for a revote. so like i said, if you're gonna say obama blocked, then you need to say the same for her

[Harlan Huckleby]

i said "so called letter", because thats where they whole notion came from of rejecting a revote. unless i missed it, i don't see were it says, nope, we won't do it no matter what

Of course they never said anything like that publically. Obama's public stance was he was "in favor of any fair process sanctioned by the DNC." Well, BS. When push came to shove, it was obvious he didn't want anything to do with a revote.

You had to read between the lines, and listen to comments from local politicians. Michael Bishop, the Senate Majority Leader, actually said it pretty clearly.

[Harlan Huckleby]

she has also rejected at least 1 maybe two ideas for a revote. so like i said, if you're gonna say obama blocked, then you need to say the same for her

no, Clinton never objected to revotes. she has rejected all the offers to compromise on seating delegates. That's because the seating of the delegates is the least of her concerns. She needed legitimate primary victories for her campaign with the Super Delegates.

[red]

not true, she along with obama rejected the mail in vote idea

i also disagree with the mail it in approach. but it is a rejection from her

i thought there was one other, that wasn't a split, but i'm too tired and i can't find it. so maybe it was just the one time

and yes, it is nit picking, but it is a rejection

and my last note, they need to do it, and i like garvilles idea of his side (clintons) coming up with 15 million through private donors, and obamas side coming up with 15 million. that would be enough to redo both states

yes i can see where obama gains by completely blocking the revote, but that will come back to haunt him in the fall when he needs those states, if he gets the nomination

[Harlan Huckleby]

not true, she along with obama rejected the mail in vote idea

the mail-in revote was championed by her main supporter in Florida, Senator Nelson. It was a desperate move to get some sort of revote, and as people explored it further, it was clear it was unworkable.


i also disagree with the mail it in approach. but it is a rejection from her

she was publicaly against the mail-in because she wanted to keep alive the possibility of a real primary, and short of that, to count the original primary. She would have accepted a mail-in if that was all she could get, otherwise Nelson would not have made any attempt.


and my last note, they need to do it, and i like garvilles idea of his side (clintons) coming up with 15 million through private donors, and obamas side coming up with 15 million. that would be enough to redo both states

well, good, but it's irrelevant now. And I'm sure Dean and Obama will ultimately offer with great fanfare to generously seat MI & FL - after the SuperDelegates have committed n sufficient numbers to make FL & MI meaningless. This is window dressing to cover Dean's ineptitude and Obama's subterfuge.

When the attempts for revotes failed in both states in march, the Obama supporters were triumphant, crowing with joy. Yahoo! Game over! And only a few journalists commented on the unsavory way that Obama sealed the deal, most were just excited to suggest it was time for Hillary to exit.

I certainly accept your position that a revote was a more just resolution, and I think Joemailman supported a revote. But most Obama supporters just stuck to the "rules are rules" view. That has left some hard feelings.

[Freak Out]

Stop the presses! I just heard Obama's tailor say that he hates America.

[texaspackerbacker]

The mail-in idea would have been a fiasco. Can you just imagine the abuses that could/would occur?

[the_idle_threat]

I can't say I hate America, exactly, but I will say that "A Horse With No Name" is an annoying song with really stupid lyrics.

[MJZiggy]

I can't say I hate America, exactly, but I will say that "A Horse With No Name" is an annoying song with really stupid lyrics.

You make a compelling argument.

[swede]

I can't say I hate America, exactly, but I will say that "A Horse With No Name" is an annoying song with really stupid lyrics.

You make a compelling argument.

...for their ain't anyone for to give you no pain...

[Harlan Huckleby]

In the desert you can remember your name
cause there aint no one for to give you no pain

[the_idle_threat]

The heat was hot ...

It's like they let a four year old write some of the lyrics.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The message from the left-leaning columns today is that people who don't vote for Obama are racists. I guess this will be their strategy to blunt the Jeremiah Wright effect.

The horrible crime that Clinton committed recently was saying that she had the solid support of working class whites. If someone were to say that Obama has 93% support among African-Americans would that be racist? Columnists have been taunting Clinton for months, saying that black voters have turned away from her - was that racist?

I think John McCain is the strongest candidate the Republicans could possibly field. And that's even considering the fact that he is too old. Its a Democratic year, and McCain uniquely has some support among moderate democrats & independents. Still, I don't know if any heir to King George has a chance next fall.

Obama is completely unpredictable as a candidate.

All I know for sure is that the Dem party has been taken-over by a very self-assured and vindictive bunch. I dearly hope that Obama can be defeated, the Huffington Post Democrats who are now (apparently) the majority of the Democrat party are not balanced people in my view. I guess an extreme reaction to the Bush years is inevitable.

[hoosier]

The message from the left-leaning columns today is that people who don't vote for Obama are racists. I guess this will be their strategy to blunt the Jeremiah Wright effect.

The horrible crime that Clinton committed recently was saying that she had the solid support of working class whites. If someone were to say that Obama has 93% support among African-Americans would that be racist? Columnists have been taunting Clinton for months, saying that black voters have turned away from her - was that racist?
.

Your analogy doesn't quite work. Hillary was clearly insinuating that Obama is unelectable because black, and thus she's appealing to (or trying to benefit from) the politics of exclusion based on race. Obama's doing nothing of the sort; at the very worst his supporters are supporting him because he's "black," which is very different from saying "I won't vote for X because he's white/black/yellow".

I don't quite get your insistence on portraying Obama supporters as crazed, vindictive extremists. There may be some of those among his followers, but I can't see how you make the leap to characterizing the entire "movement" in those terms. It seems to me that your allergy to Obama is every bit as reactive as the portrait you try to paint of the average Obama supporter. Are you doing exactly what you accuse them of?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Your analogy doesn't quite work. Hillary was clearly insinuating that Obama is unelectable because black, and thus she's appealing to (or trying to benefit from) the politics of exclusion based on race.

Horse hockey. She didn't insinuate anything, she stated plainly that she has the solid support of the white working class. It's you and Bob Hebert that have made the leap to suggest that this white middle class supports Obama weakly because they are racist.

The only suggestion she makes is that she is more electible than Obama. NOTHING wrong with that.

Lets suppose for sake of discussion that she is deliberately advocating that a black man is unelectable. How effective would that be? Do you think the voters or SuperDelegates are going to have a sudden :idea: ?

When Obamatics incessently repeat that Clinton is unelectable because black people will dessert the party, did Bob Hebert get uncomfortable? Why is it a "race card" only when race is mentioned in one context?

This is reminiscent of Clinton's "as far as I know" comment. Just like the "white working class" remark, it would have gone unnoticed had the attack dogs not parsed it carefully and amplified it a million times. The notion that the first remark was intended to stir-up talk of Obama being a muslim, or this latest remark might foment racist paranoia, is malicious & ludicrous.


Obama's doing nothing of the sort; at the very worst his supporters are supporting him because he's "black," which is very different from saying "I won't vote for X because he's white/black/yellow".

The only time Obama stepped over the line is when he called Clinton's remarks about Johnson-MLK "disturbing." He retracted a couple days later, stategically.

It's laughable when blacks & liberals say, "can we talk openly about race, can we have an honest conversation?" Then when anybody actually mentions race, if they are white they are accused of being a racist!

I accept Obama as a racial healer, and suspect his politics are not extreme. And I took his race speech as sincere and wise - although not so impressive as it relates to Jeremiah the Bullfrog.


I don't quite get your insistence on portraying Obama supporters as crazed, vindictive extremists. There may be some of those among his followers

Well, you are right to call me on this stereotyping. Certainly you & Joemailman and other Obama supporters in this forum are perfectly civil. Red goes a little nutty now and then, but he's just a infant learning the ways of the world, he's expected to spit up his food now and then.


but I can't see how you make the leap to characterizing the entire "movement" in those terms.

There is a very unpleasant far left in this country. And they might be perfectly lovable as individuals in their daily lives, but they have this manichean worldview, which means attacking Dem moderates or Republicans is like killing poisonous snakes. Anything goes. And they have grafted onto the OBama movement.


It seems to me that your allergy to Obama is every bit as reactive as the portrait you try to paint of the average Obama supporter. Are you doing exactly what you accuse them of?

I actually don't have a strong allergy to Obama. It is the character of his followers I have a problem with. I call them vindictive and absolutist because that is how they express themselves. Check out Frank Rich, Maureen Dowd, Bob Hebert at NY Times. And those are the genteel ones. Mailman's buddies at HuffingtonPost.com are a little scruffier. The certifiable types are at dailykos.

[SkinBasket]

It's like they let a four year old write some of the lyrics.

Four year olds have a much more transparent view of life than most adults. Just because they're young doesn't mean they're idiots. It just means they haven't been as mentally damaged as people like Partial.

[hoosier]

Your analogy doesn't quite work. Hillary was clearly insinuating that Obama is unelectable because black, and thus she's appealing to (or trying to benefit from) the politics of exclusion based on race.

Horse hockey. She didn't insinuate anything, she stated plainly that she has the solid support of the white working class. It's you and Bob Hebert that have made the leap to suggest that this white middle class supports Obama weakly because they are racist.


I accept your point that Herbert goes too far in his column today. He implies that Hillary is unequivocally catering to the worst motivations of white voters, and particulary the remaining uncommitted SDs. But I'm not entirely convinced by the counterargument that she couldn't be insinuating anything because, if she were, the SDs would see right through it and--boom--she'd be even worse off. I think her statement has a degree of ambiguity that neither Herbert nor you nor that guy who wrote that Slate piece today are willing to admit.

Please understand my point: I'm not making any claim to understand why white Democrats support Clinton over Obama. I don't think Herbert is saying anything about that either. What I am saying is that, whether she meant to or not, Clinton's comments touch on the fear that Obama can't win the general because he's "black." Yes, she stated plainly who her supporters are, but you and I both know that there's no such thing as a "plain statement" in politics and mass media today. Everything has a subtext or three, and some are better than others at using those subtexts, and some seem to be caught unawares by the subtexts from time to time. OK. It's been a long day, Hillary's tired, I can certainly accept that she didn't intend to do anything more than talk up her supporters.

[the_idle_threat]

It's like they let a four year old write some of the lyrics.

Four year olds have a much more transparent view of life than most adults. Just because they're young doesn't mean they're idiots. It just means they haven't been as mentally damaged as people like Partial.

:?:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Down Goes Obama!
Down Goes Obama!

That scrappy Hillary Clinton scores another impressive victory, this time in coal mining country, West Virginia.

(I heard on the Rush Limbaugh show that CNN was scrolling "Only 16% of West Virginians have education beyond high school" when reporting election results. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I think maybe the media likes Obama.)

[Joemailman]

MSNBC has had Huckabee on tonight. If he doesn't end up in politics, he may have a future on television or radio. Reminds me a little of Michael Smerconish.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If nothing else, he could do a cooking show.

[texaspackerbacker]

This continues to shape up as the best of all worlds.

Hillary is doing well enough that she has a legitimate claim to being right to stay in the race. And Obama is clinging to his lead to the extent that he is a pretty sure bet to get the nomination.

While it is wonderful to have the chaos continue a few more weeks, maybe all the way to and through Democrat convention, clearly, Obama is the easier of the two to defeat in November. One needs only to examine the electoral map to realize that.