Brian Brohm

[RashanGary]

The QB position can be overwealming for a rookie. They have to know the responsiblities of every WR, TE and RB. They have to understand the line calls and know when to change protection. They have to be able to quickly read a defense and deal with the constant disguising that goes on when teams know a rookie is starting. If their footwork and mechanics are off their accuracy is going to be effected so they have to constantly focus on their fundementals. They have to learn a whole new football language and be a team guy and leader all at the same time.

It's really a pretty tough job, but he's the #2 QB so he's going to have to get ready.

Ideally, you want to build the QB from the bottom up with vanilla offense and just focusing on doing things the right way until it's habit. After a year of that, the QB can start mastering the offense and the decision making aspect. The Packers don't really have this luxury, but luckily Brohm is the most NFL ready QB this year and maybe in the last couple years. His mechanics are sound. Maybe they can give him the crash course. They can focus on getting him ready. They can fix one or two things fundementally, but save the finer details for next off season and allow Brohm to just focus on playing.


What kind of situation is he walking into? Is he going to have a chance with the 2nd unit?

James Jones
Jordy Nelson

Jermichael Finley
Brandon Jackson
John Kuhn

Orin Thompson
Allen Barbre
Spitz? Rookie?
Junius Coston
Tony Moll


I think this is a pretty strong 2nd unit. James Jones and Jordy Nelson are elite 2nd unit weapons. Finley, Jackson and Kuhn are a good 2nd TE/RB group. His Oline is a pretty experienced, athletic group. They're probably better than the starters 2 and 3 years ago.


If the goal is to get him ready for this year, I think it's accutally and unusually achievable. He's not going to be working with stumble bums that don't know the offense and can't make plays for him. His mechanics appear to be good enough for now. All he has to do is learn the whole offense (WR's, TE's, RB's, OL) and quickly adjust to NFL defenses. Well, that's a lot and often times it fails, but I think he's got the right coach, right situation and the solid fundementals to adapt quicker than usual. who knows? If Rodgers goes down, the Packers might have a guy ready to play sooner than many think possible.

[Brandon494]

As much as Im going to miss Farve, I really do like the young QBs we have on this team. Also the recievers we have are really going to help these guys out.

[oregonpackfan]

As much as Im going to miss Favre, I really do like the young QBs we have on this team. Also the recievers we have are really going to help these guys out.

The transition of QB's should be very interesting. After having the same QB for 16 years in a row, the Packers may struggle offensively for the first half of the season. We Packer fans need to be patient with Rodgers.

[RashanGary]

I don't know if I'm quite on board with giving Rodgers time. I don't expect him to be as good at everything as Favre was. I fully expect Rodgers to take more sacks (sometimes that will be a good thing, others a bad). I don't expect him to be as good as Favre at throwing the slant.

I do expect him to make good decisions. He knows this offense as well as Favre. He's had time to study NFL defenses. His footwork and mechanics are squeeky clean from his time with McCarthy. There is no excuse for erratic accuracy or bad decisions. Maybe he won't be as good as Favre, but if he's not good at all, there is something wrong. Rodgers doesn't have an excuse to lose. This is the NFL, if he's not good enough it's not an insult, he's just not good enough and it will be time to move forward. I'm not saying he has to play mistake free, but he can't be going out there losing games for us. Rodgers standard should be much higher than Brohms right now. If Brohm is even close to as good as Rodgers at this point in his career, I would go wtih Brohm because that means Rodgers is awfull.

[Brandon494]

As much as Im going to miss Favre, I really do like the young QBs we have on this team. Also the recievers we have are really going to help these guys out.

The transition of QB's should be very interesting. After having the same QB for 16 years in a row, the Packers may struggle offensively for the first half of the season. We Packer fans need to be patient with Rodgers.

I dont think we'll be the #2 offense in the league again next season but I still see using in the top 10. Rodgers has been groomed the last 3 seasons by McCarthy. He will be fine.

[Gunakor]

I don't know if I'm quite on board with giving Rodgers time. I don't expect him to be as good at everything as Favre was. I fully expect Rodgers to take more sacks (sometimes that will be a good thing, others a bad). I don't expect him to be as good as Favre at throwing the slant.

I do expect him to make good decisions. He knows this offense as well as Favre. He's had time to study NFL defenses. His footwork and mechanics are squeeky clean from his time with McCarthy. There is no excuse for erratic accuracy or bad decisions. Maybe he won't be as good as Favre, but if he's not good at all, there is something wrong. Rodgers doesn't have an excuse to lose. This is the NFL, if he's not good enough it's not an insult, he's just not good enough and it will be time to move forward. I'm not saying he has to play mistake free, but he can't be going out there losing games for us. Rodgers standard should be much higher than Brohms right now. If Brohm is even close to as good as Rodgers at this point in his career, I would go wtih Brohm because that means Rodgers is awfull.


He knows this offense, but certainly not as well as Favre did. Favre took all the reps in practice. Favre took all the snaps in a game. Favre had the timing down - critical to an efficient WCO gameplan. Rodgers does not. Rodgers hasn't gotten those vital reps before. He hasn't been throwing to the first team offense so his timing may be off. He knows the plays, but that alone won't make him an efficient WCO quarterback.

Look back in NFL history at all of the legendary QB's to have played and thier first replacements. There is only one time I can think of where thier respective fans have not been disappointed. When Elway retired, the Denver fans didn't get even half an Elway, and the same with Marino. Same with Staubach, and Tarkington, and Namath, and Bradshaw, and Starr, and same as is going to be with Brady and Brees and Rothlisberger and 2 different Mannings. Same as countless others not named Montana. So lets not fool ourselves into believing that we are automatically going to be getting even half a Favre, because history tells us we probably are not.

[HarveyWallbangers]

ARod will be the man this year. He'll be on a long leash. Preseason often doesn't tell you what you need to know. Defenses aren't very exotic.

I'm not sure why JH is on the Brohm kick, but I think ARod is more likely to be the long-term answer. He has better arm strength than Brohm. He has better mobility than Brohm. They both seem accurate and they both are intelligent. The only question about ARod is his durability, but a lot of scouts question Brohm's durability also. He took a lot of big hits in college because his lack of mobility (although he has decent speed, he doesn't have near the quickness and escability that ARod has), and that could be a problem in the pros.

[RashanGary]

I'm not on a Brohm kick at all. Both could be good, one could be good or neither could be any good. I'm not all about giving a guy who's had that much time to get his game right another year to figure it out. He's going to have some growing pains, but it should be no worse than Rivers or Rothlisburger (other guys who came into good teams recently). I don't think Rivers or Rothisburger are HOFers. They're good players. We're looking for a good player to play QB too. If Rodgers isn't a good player then I'm of the opinion that you give the next guy a chance. I don't expect a champion, I just don't want to trot out a loser week in and week out. He has to win some games and push the Vikings for the North.

[falco]

I'm not on a Brohm kick at all. Both could be good, one could be good or neither could be any good. I'm not all about giving a guy who's had that much time to get his game right another year to figure it out. He's going to have some growing pains, but it should be no worse than Rivers or Rothlisburger (other guys who came into good teams recently). I don't think Rivers or Rothisburger are HOFers. They're good players. We're looking for a good player to play QB too. If Rodgers isn't a good player then I'm of the opinion that you give the next guy a chance. I don't expect a champion, I just don't want to trot out a loser week in and week out. He has to win some games and push the Vikings for the North.

i like your logic there JH.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Both could be good, one could be good or neither could be any good.

Who do predict will be better?

[CaliforniaCheez]

As good as Brohm is, he is still a "dumb" rookie. He should make great progress by 2009 season.

Rodgers make his largest stride between year 2 and year 3 (we hope for even more between year 3 and 4).

Brohm will be a lightweight as a #2 but a good #3.

The risk diminishes over time. The each week that Rodgers does not get injured means further development for Brohm.

Brohm will likely make you more nervous in preseason but remind yourself that there will be progress every week. Flynn could be learning more rapidly.

The O-line and QB protection is extremely important this season.

[RashanGary]

If I had to go with my gut I would say Brohm. I think Rodgers has a chance, but his pocket presence scares me. When pressure comes he doesn't seem to slide and pass. He just tucks and runs. Brohm seems to slide away and pass at the same time. It's not too much for him to focus on the play down field and the pressure at the same time. Favre was rare in that he fell away from the pressure and passed. The good QB's I watch can throw well without a perfect pocket. Rodgers hasn't shown me that yet. He just ran whenever anyone was near him. It's been some small samples, but initially I get a better feeling about Brohm just watching the plays he made from the pocket at Louiville.

[RashanGary]

I agree, cali cheese. If Rodgers can make it through 8 or 10 games, I think Brohm will be far enough along to come in and keep our playoff hopes alive untill Rodgers comes back. The soonest I really want to see Brohm is next season or if we get eliminated from the playoffs I'd rather we go to Brohm just to see what we have.

[oregonpackfan]

Look back in NFL history at all of the legendary QB's to have played and thier first replacements. There is only one time I can think of where thier respective fans have not been disappointed. When Elway retired, the Denver fans didn't get even half an Elway, and the same with Marino. Same with Staubach, and Tarkington, and Namath, and Bradshaw, and Starr, and same as is going to be with Brady and Brees and Rothlisberger and 2 different Mannings. Same as countless others not named Montana. So lets not fool ourselves into believing that we are automatically going to be getting even half a Favre, because history tells us we probably are not.[/quote]

Gunakor,

Your point is well documented that replacements for legendary QB's often struggle. One exception is Steve Young replacing Joe Montana. Young had an all-Pro career with the 49'ers.

If you recall, Young was not new to the NFL. He started with the Tampa Bay Bucs, who at the time, were the worst team in the NFL. Young struggled with the Bucs. When he went to the 49'ers he sat on the bench while Montana was still starting. When Montana went to the Chiefs, Young finally had his chance to shine with a quality team.

[texaspackerbacker]

The whole situation for the Packers--O Line, RBs, Receivers, Quality D, etc.--is a near-perfect set-up for success for Rodgers or Brohm.

I am optimistic that Rodgers will do at least as well as Favre did/would have done is his gradually winding down status. In every physical category except arm strength, he should be clearly better than Favre.

Brohm also would be set-up for success if he had to start. I think he has the ability to be very very good, too. However, I would still expect a lot more rookie-type mistakes with Brohm. Thus, I think it's clear that Rodgers plays unless injuries prevent it. Brohm will be an adequate backup this year, an outstanding backup by '09, and trade bait for a first rounder or more by '10.

[BooHoo]

I have never been a solid ARod supporter. However, we have to give the guy a chance to show his value to this team. I also believe he will be on a long rope. It would take a lot to pull him off the field this year. Another concern is whether he can stay healthy.

[LL2]

The interesting thing is that Rodgers has been in the NFL for 3 years and he's still only 1 year older than rookie Brohm. He came out really young and has had the time to learn. I agree with JH that he has to play at a pretty good level, but to say he can't lose games is a nice thing to say yet Favre has lost many games on his own especially in his first few years.

[b bulldog]

Both QB's will have their learning curves and Brohm's will be much bigger than Rodgers. ARod should not be overlooked, the guy has good height, athleticism, and time in the O and he will and should be given most of 08 to pass or fail. Any talk of Brohm giving Rodgers any competition in camp or even the early part of the season is foolish.

[BF4MVP]

Both QB's will have their learning curves and Brohm's will be much bigger than Rodgers. ARod should not be overlooked, the guy has good height, athleticism, and time in the O and he will and should be given most of 08 to pass or fail. Any talk of Brohm giving Rodgers any competition in camp or even the early part of the season is foolish.
Great post 8-)

[CaliforniaCheez]

Everyone seems to understand in May but in October it will be tougher.

Let me point out how the crowd at Lambeau would applaud in 1994 when Brett would throw the ball away and they really tried to encourage him.

All the QB's on the roster are going to need an extra helping or two of patience. Give it.

Some discipline against some posters in the fall will help.

1) Let's not have rants against Brett for selfishness abandonment etc.
2) Rodgers will screw up. Everyone learns from their screw ups. So will he.
3) Many of Brett's INT's were forgiven. Ask yourself if Brett threw it how would you react?
4) The media will be harsh. We should be less harsh.
5) Rodgers deserves a full season to judge. Early in the season we don't want chants of "Rodgers Go Home. Bring in Brohm."
6) Have confidence that the situation will improve over the season and will be better next year.
7) No matter how bad it gets it could be worse (Rex, Tarvaris, Cleo Lemon).
8) It has been worse and fans stood behind Scott Hunter, Jerry Tagge, Brett Favre's first couple of years. We survived and never lost faith.
9) Screaming will not help and Ted will not panic and trade the farm for a Jon Hadl and Jim Del Gazo.
10) One of the three QB's will not be a bust.

Save these 10 points on your computer desktop for when they are needed or just memorize them.

[Tarlam!]

The Dallas game, plus M3's almost smugness when he talks on A-Rods readiness have me convinced.

And another thing, TT drafts BPA. He drafted 2 WRs when we have a glutton already, drafted Harrell last year when we were stocked at DT etc.

Drafting Brohm rather than engaging a so-so journeyman with little or no upside is completely in line with what we've seen from TT since he's been here. TT is building from within. It's been said so many times and still, people don't wanna get it.

Of course, he hasn't hit on everything, but he has definitely improved the team. That Seattle playoff game was amazing. But I digress.

TT's openly stating immediately after Day 1 of the draft "and I told Brian he's clearly the backup for Aaron" should be enough. TT also says he loves competition at every spot. TT saying "it's Aaron's gig" is as if he wrote it in blood.

The Green Bay Packers only have a QB controversy if #4 mixes things up. I don't care how good BB looks in camp.

[wist43]

The Dallas game, plus M3's almost smugness when he talks on A-Rods readiness have me convinced.

And another thing, TT drafts BPA. He drafted 2 WRs when we have a glutton already, drafted Harrell last year when we were stocked at DT etc.

Drafting Brohm rather than engaging a so-so journeyman with little or no upside is completely in line with what we've seen from TT since he's been here. TT is building from within. It's been said so many times and still, people don't wanna get it.

Of course, he hasn't hit on everything, but he has definitely improved the team. That Seattle playoff game was amazing. But I digress.

TT's openly stating immediately after Day 1 of the draft "and I told Brian he's clearly the backup for Aaron" should be enough. TT also says he loves competition at every spot. TT saying "it's Aaron's gig" is as if he wrote it in blood.

The Green Bay Packers only have a QB controversy if #4 mixes things up. I don't care how good BB looks in camp.

Tar, I know Rodgers looked decent in the Dallas game... and, maybe he could be good enough to QB the team to a winning record - and never minding the fragility factor, which in his case is HUGE - but, does anyone see him as special???

This offense, to carry a team to a SB, has to have a special QB. Favre had a special year last year, and it still wasn't good enough.

I like the Brohm pick, admittedly w/o really knowing much about the guy beyond highlight reels and magazine scouting reports. Given our offensive system, we have to, HAVE TO, have a QB.

As for your points about drafting BPA vs need - I think the jury is still out on TT for this one.

By drafting Harrell he pushed a better player off the roster and also wasn't able to fill another position on the roster with a 1st round calibur talent. All b/c TT had Harrell rated that much higher than anyone else, at any other position on the board???

Is Harrell CLEARLY better than Dwayne Bowe??? Or some of the other players at positions of need that went after Harrell???

I think you can look at last years draft and make a case that TT screwed up both sides of the debate BPA vs need. He took Harrell as his BPA in the 1st round and ultimately set the team back b/c of it; and he took Jackson in the 2nd as a need pick, and he clearly isn't a 2nd round talent.

Yes, TT has improved the overall talent level on this team very quickly, but I can see where his unwillingness to move to get players with talent at positions of need could keep this team on the cusp, but never get them over the top. Any talk of winning anything is academic however, w/o that "special" QB.

[woodbuck27]

As much as Im going to miss Favre, I really do like the young QBs we have on this team. Also the recievers we have are really going to help these guys out.

The transition of QB's should be very interesting. After having the same QB for 16 years in a row, the Packers may struggle offensively for the first half of the season. We Packer fans need to be patient with Rodgers.

Good game plans and proper play calls help alot. Aaron just
has to execute. He throws and runs very well.

Toughness?

[Fritz]

ARod will be the man this year. He'll be on a long leash. Preseason often doesn't tell you what you need to know. Defenses aren't very exotic.

I'm not sure why JH is on the Brohm kick, but I think ARod is more likely to be the long-term answer. He has better arm strength than Brohm. He has better mobility than Brohm. They both seem accurate and they both are intelligent. The only question about ARod is his durability, but a lot of scouts question Brohm's durability also. He took a lot of big hits in college because his lack of mobility (although he has decent speed, he doesn't have near the quickness and escability that ARod has), and that could be a problem in the pros.

I think one must also question Rodgers's decision to go with the Jesus look.

[Tarlam!]

Fair enough, Wisty. I can't disagree with any of your points. I was merely pointing out that Brohm will not be challenging A-Rod this year.

Maybe i was unclear, but I was trying to make the case that the Brohm pick was a depth pick, a BPA pick and not a pick that means the front office believes A-Rod is fragile or not the guy.

I think we both agree, though, that TT's moves have been an improvement overall.

[cheesner]

By drafting Harrell he pushed a better player off the roster and also wasn't able to fill another position on the roster with a 1st round calibur talent. All b/c TT had Harrell rated that much higher than anyone else, at any other position on the board???

Is Harrell CLEARLY better than Dwayne Bowe??? Or some of the other players at positions of need that went after Harrell???

No, he isn't CLEARLY better. TT doesn't have a crystal ball and makes the best decision he can. About 95% of draft picks can be 2nd guessed because someone drafter later will emerge. It has only been 1 year, give Justin some time.

Besides, TT picked up James Jones in the 3rd round who, if was in the same situation as Bowe (no other good receivers on the team) probably would have had as big of an impact as Bowe. Given the choice of JJ/Harrell or Bowe/some 3rd rd DT, I would go with JJ/Harrell hands down.

Or to put it in your context, is Bowe CLEARLY better than JJ? I think the answer to that is also NO.



Tar, I know Rodgers looked decent in the Dallas game... and, maybe he could be good enough to QB the team to a winning record - and never minding the fragility factor, which in his case is HUGE - but, does anyone see him as special???

. . .


I think you can look at last years draft and make a case that TT screwed up both sides of the debate BPA vs need. He took Harrell as his BPA in the 1st round and ultimately set the team back b/c of it; and he took Jackson in the 2nd as a need pick, and he clearly isn't a 2nd round talent.


I for one, thing AR can be special. No, you don't need a 'special' QB to win the superbowl, but it sure helps.

Not sure how you can say TT set the team back because of the Harrell pick. The more talent you put on your team the better off you are, even if it is a position of depth.

Not sure how you can say Jackson is 'clearly' not worthy of a 2nd round pick. Grant was not able to step forward and take over till the midpoint of the season. And he was a seasoned NFL player who should have adjusted more quickly than a rookie. Give Jackson some time.

Every pick has some upside to them, and a risk factor on if they will achieve that level or not. Jackson and Harrell are both physical specimens that have the capacity to be special players. Only time will tell if they can be special players in the NFL, and I am of the belief that at least one of these guys steps it up, if not both.

[Patler]

This offense, to carry a team to a SB, has to have a special QB. Favre had a special year last year, and it still wasn't good enough.


By drafting Harrell he pushed a better player off the roster and also wasn't able to fill another position on the roster with a 1st round calibur talent. All b/c TT had Harrell rated that much higher than anyone else, at any other position on the board???

Is Harrell CLEARLY better than Dwayne Bowe??? Or some of the other players at positions of need that went after Harrell???

I think you can look at last years draft and make a case that TT screwed up both sides of the debate BPA vs need. He took Harrell as his BPA in the 1st round and ultimately set the team back b/c of it; and he took Jackson in the 2nd as a need pick, and he clearly isn't a 2nd round talent.

Yes, TT has improved the overall talent level on this team very quickly, but I can see where his unwillingness to move to get players with talent at positions of need could keep this team on the cusp, but never get them over the top. Any talk of winning anything is academic however, w/o that "special" QB.

What do you mean by "special"?

In some ways, Rodgers could be better suited to this offense than Favre was. Rodgers' forte in college was patience and accuracy in a controlled, ball control type passing game. He is reputed to have very good deep ball accuracy, but he has had little opportunity to show it in college or since.

Favre's impatient nature was the exact opposite of what is needed for a "take what you can get" offense like this.

As for reading a defense and adjusting, which Favre did so well this past season, Rodgers might be OK. I heard an interesting interview with Donald Driver two weeks ago. He was asked what Rodgers' strongest attribute was, and Driver said he threw very well, but fans will be impressed by his ability to recognize defenses. Driver said Rodgers can call the defense before they finish lining up. He said it was really impressive. I found that to be an unusual thing for DD to mention, when he could have given so many other run-of-the-mill responses. It seemed to be something that really impressed him.

As for Harrell and Jackson, we will know much more this season about what effect drafting them really had.

[RashanGary]

As for reading a defense and adjusting, which Favre did so well this past season, Rodgers might be OK. I heard an interesting interview with Donald Driver two weeks ago. He was asked what Rodgers' strongest attribute was, and Driver said he threw very well, but fans will be impressed by his ability to recognize defenses. Driver said Rodgers can call the defense before they finish lining up. He said it was really impressive. I found that to be an unusual thing for DD to mention, when he could have given so many other run-of-the-mill responses. It seemed to be something that really impressed him.

As for Harrell and Jackson, we will know much more this season about what effect drafting them really had.


That's interesting that Driver said that. I heard somewhere else that James Jones said Rodgers knew the offense better than Favre did. Coming from a new guy whos head was spinning last year, it's not as big of a compliment as Driver saying he's really good at reading defenses.

That much is promising. Rodgers knows where his guy is supposed to be. He knows what defenses are trying to do (according to his teammates). He didn't look overwelmed at all in the Dallas game and they were extremely aggressive against Rodgers and he handled it better than Brett did. It will be interesting to find out if he can put it all together. I'm going to doubt him until I see it just because the odds say he's not going to be good and I worry a little about his pocket presence. Brett is supposed to be an irreplacable legend. If Rodgers can pick right up, I would crap a brick. It certainly makes you wonder how irreplacable a guy is if he were to get replaced with one shot.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's interesting that Driver said that. I heard somewhere else that James Jones said Rodgers knew the offense better than Favre did.

I'd like to see the quote.

[the_idle_threat]

I heard an interesting interview with Donald Driver two weeks ago. He was asked what Rodgers' strongest attribute was, and Driver said he threw very well, but fans will be impressed by his ability to recognize defenses. Driver said Rodgers can call the defense before they finish lining up. He said it was really impressive.

I also heard this interview---it was on TMJ radio I believe. I thought it was an interesting and telling comment from DD.

[RashanGary]

That's interesting that Driver said that. I heard somewhere else that James Jones said Rodgers knew the offense better than Favre did.

I'd like to see the quote.

It was from a person like Patler who said he heard it on one of the radio stations in Milwaukee. Patler idnd't exacly give a quote either. I trust Patlers a little more because I know he's not prone to exaggeration, but I beleive Rodgers could knwo the offense better. He's around year long iwth McCarthy where Favre just shows up for TC and the reg season. Is it really that hard for you to believe?

[RashanGary]

This is what was said from a very respected poster/moderator at antoher sports forum.



I was listening to an interview with James Jones on WSSP. Gary Ellerson was asking him questions. One question was about what are the similarities between Favre and Rodgers and what are the differences. I was shocked at Jones' answers.

He said the similarities were that they both threw the ball very, very hard and that they both knew the offense really well, but Aaron knows the offense better than Favre.

He was then asked since they both threw the ball hard, who threw it harder, he replied that since he wasn't around before this year, he can only speak on what he has experienced in games and practices this year, and that this year, Rodgers throws the ball harder than Favre does.

He also said the the Dallas game is not the best the Rodgers can do. He is much better than that.


I understand a WR not wanting to say anything bad about his QB, but these are very interesting statements coming from one of GB's own WRs.

[cheesner]

That's interesting that Driver said that. I heard somewhere else that James Jones said Rodgers knew the offense better than Favre did.

I'd like to see the quote.
It is also reported that AR throws the ball harder than Brett.

Here is the discussion thread

http://www.packerchatters.com/4ums/index.php?showtopic=10597

[RashanGary]

The person is a mod there and carries weight. IF he lied, he would hurt the reputation of their forum. If you notice, he has the trust of all of the posters at that site even after saying something that probably offends the living piss out of 80% of them. It's earned (the same way no one questioned Patler here). When you dis Favre at any Packer site and people don't question your accuracy, you're doing something very right.

[RashanGary]

All I know is that if Favre is as great as everyone makes him out to be the Packers are screwed no matter what Driver and Jones have to say. How can you go from the greatest diffence maker ever to just some guy and expect to win when you were barely winning with the best guy ever over the last 3 years? I mean, if he were the best guy ever wouldnl't it be nearly impossible for anythign but a huge drop off?


That is why I temper my enthusiasm. It's just not possible for some guy who's nothing special at anything to step in and play well after the team was being carried by the best guy ever. It defies logic. Either that or really takes away the luster of being the best guy ever if the best guy ever is really just replacable. . . well, is he even the best guy ever? I refuse to buy that. I know Favre is the best guy ever so wtih that, I fully expect a horrible losing season, further showing that he carried this team with all of his knolwedge and greatness. He is one of a kind great and nobody can step in and lead the team to a comparable level.

[Bretsky]

That's interesting that Driver said that. I heard somewhere else that James Jones said Rodgers knew the offense better than Favre did.

I'd like to see the quote.

It was from a person like Patler who said he heard it on one of the radio stations in Milwaukee. Patler idnd't exacly give a quote either. I trust Patlers a little more because I know he's not prone to exaggeration, but I beleive Rodgers could knwo the offense better. He's around year long iwth McCarthy where Favre just shows up for TC and the reg season. Is it really that hard for you to believe?


I find it really hard to believe a player would say that as well; I would find that hard to believe unless I heard it. Sounds like something a rosy eyed reporter would make up.

I also find it hard to believe that Rodgers, with no game experience at all, would know the offense better than somebody who has run it for a long time

[HarveyWallbangers]

It is also reported that AR throws the ball harder than Brett.

Well, I just don't see it. Rodgers has a good arm, but there's no way he throws harder than Brett--even now. I'd like to see the chat transcript. Brett's been in the offense forever. Maybe ARod could recite things on the board better, but when he gets on the field, I doubt he sees it better than Brett. In fact, I think that's the biggest difference we may end up seeing--other than durability issues. Either this guy misquoted Jones (which wouldn't be shocking) or Jones is trying to boost ARod's confidence. Hell, if ARod is that good, then I need to figure out where the Super Bowl is this year and book a hotel.

[Bretsky]

All I know is that if Favre is as great as everyone makes him out to be the Packers are screwed no matter what Driver and Jones have to say. How can you go from the greatest diffence maker ever to just some guy and expect to win when you were barely winning with the best guy ever over the last 3 years? I mean, if he were the best guy ever wouldnl't it be nearly impossible for anythign but a huge drop off?


That is why I temper my enthusiasm. It's just not possible for some guy who's nothing special at anything to step in and play well after the team was being carried by the best guy ever. It defies logic. Either that or really takes away the luster of being the best guy ever if the best guy ever is really just replacable. . . well, is he even the best guy ever? I refuse to buy that. I know Favre is the best guy ever so wtih that, I fully expect a horrible losing season, further showing that he carried this team with all of his knolwedge and greatness. He is one of a kind great and nobody can step in and lead the team to a comparable level.


Talent wise I don't think Rodgers brings as much to the table so there will be a dropoff. How much of a drop off depends on how much smarter Rodgers is with his decision making. IF that is better than Favre's he can be nearly as effective. If the decision making is comparable, we'll see a big dropoff IMHO

[Bretsky]

It is also reported that AR throws the ball harder than Brett.

Well, I just don't see it. Rodgers has a good arm, but there's no way he throws harder than Brett--even now. I'd like to see the chat transcript. Brett's been in the offense forever. Maybe ARod could recite things on the board better, but when he gets on the field, I doubt he sees it better than Brett. In fact, I think that's the biggest difference we may end up seeing--other than durability issues. Either this guy misquoted Jones (which wouldn't be shocking) or Jones is trying to boost ARod's confidence. Hell, if ARod is that good, then I need to figure out where the Super Bowl is this year and book a hotel.

Was not sure if cheesner was trying to be sarcastic with the comment about arm strength

but I completely agree with HW; no way is the arm stronger. Elway and Favre had elite arms. Favre's arm strength is still elite even now. Rodgers arm is solid; but IMO nobody will consider his arm strength elite compared to other starting QB's

[Patler]

I heard an interesting interview with Donald Driver two weeks ago. He was asked what Rodgers' strongest attribute was, and Driver said he threw very well, but fans will be impressed by his ability to recognize defenses. Driver said Rodgers can call the defense before they finish lining up. He said it was really impressive.

I also heard this interview---it was on TMJ radio I believe. I thought it was an interesting and telling comment from DD.

Yup, it was WTMJ. Just what I heard coming directly from Driver's mouth in a live interview. If I could provide a link, I would.

To be perfectly honest, I don't put a lot of credence in what Jones may have said. I'm not doubting that he said it, but how much does he really have to draw on? Just one season.

Even Driver has to be taken with a grain of salt. If you have listened to him much over the years, he is prone to a bit of exageration. So, while the speed at which Rodgers reads a defense might be exagerated, the simple fact that Driver mentioned it makes me believe there is something there that stuck out in Driver's mind.

All in all, it doesn't matter one bit. They key is that Rodgers has to put everything together at game speed. Doing it in practice, in the film room or on the sidelines is not the same as doing it in a game.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think ARod has everything you are looking for. He has good arm strength (although not elite like Favre). He seems to have accuracy. He has good mobility. His teammates seem to believe in him. He's very intelligent. He works hard. Durability will be a big issue until he proves otherwise, but I think he can be as good as Matt Hasselbeck, and that might be good enough to put us in the picture for the Super Bowl. It's fair to remember that Matt struggled his first year in Seattle--even after sitting behind Favre for a couple of years, so we'll go through some growing pains. However, I think the team surrounding ARod is better than the Seattle team he went to, so he's set up for earlier success.

[GrnBay007]

I will be extremely happy if Rodgers picks up where Brett left off and they make a run in the playoffs.

Kinda bummed people are so anxious to see Rodgers succeed that they throw in digs about Favre. As it is now, we all just wait and see the answers about whether Rodgers does this or Rodgers does that better.

Something I'm curious about....


Driver said he threw very well, but fans will be impressed by his ability to recognize defenses. Driver said Rodgers can call the defense before they finish lining up. He said it was really impressive.

What is this statement really being based on? The Dallas game? Packer practices? C'mon, lets be real.

[Patler]

Something I'm curious about....


Driver said he threw very well, but fans will be impressed by his ability to recognize defenses. Driver said Rodgers can call the defense before they finish lining up. He said it was really impressive.

What is this statement really being based on? The Dallas game? Packer practices? C'mon, lets be real.

It could be based on lots of things, practices, film room sessions watching the competition, sideline comments from games, etc. It doesn't mean he will do it as the starter in game conditions, and I didn't offer it for that. Just that Driver brought it up, when he could have answered the question with comments about what a hard worker Rodgers is, what a great guy he is, etc, etc.

It is no different than what we are told about other young, inexperienced players. Things they seem to do well in practices or whatever that we can hope they will do in games.

[Patler]

It is also reported that AR throws the ball harder than Brett.

Well, I just don't see it. Rodgers has a good arm, but there's no way he throws harder than Brett--even now. I'd like to see the chat transcript. Brett's been in the offense forever. Maybe ARod could recite things on the board better, but when he gets on the field, I doubt he sees it better than Brett. In fact, I think that's the biggest difference we may end up seeing--other than durability issues. Either this guy misquoted Jones (which wouldn't be shocking) or Jones is trying to boost ARod's confidence. Hell, if ARod is that good, then I need to figure out where the Super Bowl is this year and book a hotel.

Interesting comment from Favre himself about his arm strength in recent years:


-- On his reputation for throwing hard:

"I've always had a knack for breaking fingers, dislocating fingers, cutting fingers, whatever. The last couple of years, not quite as much. I noticed my arm strength has diminished a little bit on top of the aggression. I was more apt to do it in practice the last few years, when there were times I could make a statement. Call it old age if you will, but then I figured I'd just wait for the games.

"But early in my career, and I say early, but I mean up until a few years ago, it was nothing for me to go out and the first pass in practice I'd throw it as hard as I could. Guys were not ready for it and broken fingers would result. Donald Driver had a ton of dislocations and breaks."

[GrnBay007]

It is no different than what we are told about other young, inexperienced players. Things they seem to do well in practices or whatever that we can hope they will do in games.

Completely understandable. I just don't see why people are so quick to start comparing him in any way, shape or form to Favre when the guy hasn't even started a game...much less to say he's better!!!! It's just not necessary. I just wish everyone (players...apparently, and fans) would let the guy play his own game and not compare.

Being the Favre fan that I am, I'm inclined to say there is absolutely NO way he takes over and doesn't skip a beat, but I'm certainly open to the fact that it could happen.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Interesting comment from Favre himself about his arm strength in recent years:

Not sure if you are trying to insinuate that maybe ARod has Favre's arm strength, but you can watch and see that Favre still threw harder than 90% of the starters in the league--even in his old age. Favre's arm strength ranked up there with John Elway as near the best ever. He was like a guy that came into the league throwing 100 MPH. Sure, the last couple of years, he was down a bit (and nobody said it wasn't), but he was still throwing 95-97. ARod is more like a guy who throws 91-93. ARod has good arm strength (above average), but it wasn't even at the top of his draft class. His arm strength was similar to Tarvaris Jackson coming out. A guy like Jay Cutler could probably get up there close to Favre now, but his arm strength is better than ARod's arm strength.

[Patler]

Interesting comment from Favre himself about his arm strength in recent years:

Not sure if you are trying to insinuate that maybe ARod has Favre's arm strength, but you can watch and see that Favre still threw harder than 90% of the starters in the league--even in his old age. Favre's arm strength ranked up there with John Elway as near the best ever. He was like a guy that came into the league throwing 100 MPH. Sure, the last couple of years, he was down a bit (and nobody said it wasn't), but he was still throwing 95-97. ARod is more like a guy who throws 91-93. ARod has good arm strength (above average), but it wasn't even at the top of his draft class. His arm strength was similar to Tarvaris Jackson coming out. A guy like Jay Cutler could probably get up there close to Favre now, but his arm strength is better than ARod's arm strength.

I'm not trying to insinuate anything. I saw the quote, thought it was an interesting comment from Favre himself on a topic being discussed here, so I posted it.

I can't and won't make any comparisons about his arm strength and Rodgers or other current starters, because I have not seen him throw from up close in a number of years. Any information I have is from before his admitted decline. I have never seen Jackson, Cutler or most other starters in person, ever, so I don't know if his arm strength is better than all of them, half of them or none of them. The few highlight replays I see each year from most teams' games don't provide much evidence.

[Patler]

It is no different than what we are told about other young, inexperienced players. Things they seem to do well in practices or whatever that we can hope they will do in games.

Completely understandable. I just don't see why people are so quick to start comparing him in any way, shape or form to Favre when the guy hasn't even started a game...much less to say he's better!!!! It's just not necessary. I just wish everyone (players...apparently, and fans) would let the guy play his own game and not compare.

Being the Favre fan that I am, I'm inclined to say there is absolutely NO way he takes over and doesn't skip a beat, but I'm certainly open to the fact that it could happen.

I guess I don't understand why some people feel they have to be defensive about or protective of Favre's legacy. It will take care of itself. Young QBs being drafted in recent years have been compared to Favre, isn't it only natural that his successor will be?

I don't think anyone should expect Rodgers to take over and the team not skip a beat. Favre had some very, very rough patches for several years early in his career. The problem players have in following a legend is that the young successor is compared to the legend at his prime (which is all most fans remember). He is never compared to the legend at a comparable stage in his career (some fans are too young to really even remember those years), and is rarely even compared to the legend at the end of his career. When Rodgers hits his inevitable rough patches, if comparisons must be made, I hope they are to Favre as a 1st and 2nd year starter, not the Favre the fans want to remember.

[hoosier]

And another thing, TT drafts BPA. He drafted 2 WRs when we have a glutton already, drafted Harrell last year when we were stocked at DT etc.

Gilbert's back? And playing "wide" receiver???? :lol:

[Zool]

It is no different than what we are told about other young, inexperienced players. Things they seem to do well in practices or whatever that we can hope they will do in games.

Completely understandable. I just don't see why people are so quick to start comparing him in any way, shape or form to Favre when the guy hasn't even started a game...much less to say he's better!!!! It's just not necessary. I just wish everyone (players...apparently, and fans) would let the guy play his own game and not compare.

Being the Favre fan that I am, I'm inclined to say there is absolutely NO way he takes over and doesn't skip a beat, but I'm certainly open to the fact that it could happen.

Its crazy to think he wont be compared to Favre every play for at least the first few years. Rodgers is going to be sick of hearing the name by 2010. Every loss will be "could Favre have won that game?" and every win will be "is that how Favre would have done it?" I don't envy him at all.

I kinda wish it wasn't that way. I've always been a huge Favre fan, but honestly, lately I'm sick of hearing about him. By lately I mean the last few years. I for one don't want to know that much about a players personal life. Every prime time game for the last 3 years we've gotten the rehash of Irv, Deanna's bro etc. Its not surprising that opposing fans are just sick of hearing it. Its not his fault obviously just stating my opinion.

[Packnut]

By drafting Harrell he pushed a better player off the roster and also wasn't able to fill another position on the roster with a 1st round calibur talent. All b/c TT had Harrell rated that much higher than anyone else, at any other position on the board???

Is Harrell CLEARLY better than Dwayne Bowe??? Or some of the other players at positions of need that went after Harrell???

No, he isn't CLEARLY better. TT doesn't have a crystal ball and makes the best decision he can. About 95% of draft picks can be 2nd guessed because someone drafter later will emerge. It has only been 1 year, give Justin some time.

Besides, TT picked up James Jones in the 3rd round who, if was in the same situation as Bowe (no other good receivers on the team) probably would have had as big of an impact as Bowe. Given the choice of JJ/Harrell or Bowe/some 3rd rd DT, I would go with JJ/Harrell hands down.

Or to put it in your context, is Bowe CLEARLY better than JJ? I think the answer to that is also NO.



Tar, I know Rodgers looked decent in the Dallas game... and, maybe he could be good enough to QB the team to a winning record - and never minding the fragility factor, which in his case is HUGE - but, does anyone see him as special???

. . .


I think you can look at last years draft and make a case that TT screwed up both sides of the debate BPA vs need. He took Harrell as his BPA in the 1st round and ultimately set the team back b/c of it; and he took Jackson in the 2nd as a need pick, and he clearly isn't a 2nd round talent.


I for one, thing AR can be special. No, you don't need a 'special' QB to win the superbowl, but it sure helps.

Not sure how you can say TT set the team back because of the Harrell pick. The more talent you put on your team the better off you are, even if it is a position of depth.

Not sure how you can say Jackson is 'clearly' not worthy of a 2nd round pick. Grant was not able to step forward and take over till the midpoint of the season. And he was a seasoned NFL player who should have adjusted more quickly than a rookie. Give Jackson some time.

Every pick has some upside to them, and a risk factor on if they will achieve that level or not. Jackson and Harrell are both physical specimens that have the capacity to be special players. Only time will tell if they can be special players in the NFL, and I am of the belief that at least one of these guys steps it up, if not both.



Wrong. Harrell was a LOUSY pick. We have NOTHING at the saftey position. Collins is a BUST. Reggie Nelson was sitting there for the taking. Yeah, that same Reggie Nelson who had an oustanding rookie year. Sorry but Teddy screwed this one up big-time.

[Patler]

We have NOTHING at the saftey position. Collins is a BUST. Reggie Nelson was sitting there for the taking. Yeah, that same Reggie Nelson who had an oustanding rookie year. Sorry but Teddy screwed this one up big-time.

Labeling him a "BUST" is a bit harsh when he was named a Pro_Bowl alternate this year. I'm not saying he necessarily deserved it, and quite frankly I expected more than he has shown to date, but he isn't so lousy as to be labeled a bust, in my opinion.

[Packnut]

We have NOTHING at the saftey position. Collins is a BUST. Reggie Nelson was sitting there for the taking. Yeah, that same Reggie Nelson who had an oustanding rookie year. Sorry but Teddy screwed this one up big-time.

Labeling him a "BUST" is a bit harsh when he was named a Pro_Bowl alternate this year. I'm not saying he necessarily deserved it, and quite frankly I expected more than he has shown to date, but he isn't so lousy as to be labeled a bust, in my opinion.

He's invisible on the field. He brings nothing to the table. He cannot cover a TE. He delivers zero bone crushing punnishing hits. I cannot count the number of games where his name is never even mentioned.

My memory is hazy, but was'nt he a 3rd rd pick? Bust is a subjective term, but since he has'nt done what was expected of him, I think it's a fair enough label.

[wist43]

By drafting Harrell he pushed a better player off the roster and also wasn't able to fill another position on the roster with a 1st round calibur talent. All b/c TT had Harrell rated that much higher than anyone else, at any other position on the board???

Is Harrell CLEARLY better than Dwayne Bowe??? Or some of the other players at positions of need that went after Harrell???

No, he isn't CLEARLY better. TT doesn't have a crystal ball and makes the best decision he can. About 95% of draft picks can be 2nd guessed because someone drafter later will emerge. It has only been 1 year, give Justin some time.

Besides, TT picked up James Jones in the 3rd round who, if was in the same situation as Bowe (no other good receivers on the team) probably would have had as big of an impact as Bowe. Given the choice of JJ/Harrell or Bowe/some 3rd rd DT, I would go with JJ/Harrell hands down.

Or to put it in your context, is Bowe CLEARLY better than JJ? I think the answer to that is also NO.



Tar, I know Rodgers looked decent in the Dallas game... and, maybe he could be good enough to QB the team to a winning record - and never minding the fragility factor, which in his case is HUGE - but, does anyone see him as special???

. . .


I think you can look at last years draft and make a case that TT screwed up both sides of the debate BPA vs need. He took Harrell as his BPA in the 1st round and ultimately set the team back b/c of it; and he took Jackson in the 2nd as a need pick, and he clearly isn't a 2nd round talent.


I for one, thing AR can be special. No, you don't need a 'special' QB to win the superbowl, but it sure helps.

Not sure how you can say TT set the team back because of the Harrell pick. The more talent you put on your team the better off you are, even if it is a position of depth.

Not sure how you can say Jackson is 'clearly' not worthy of a 2nd round pick. Grant was not able to step forward and take over till the midpoint of the season. And he was a seasoned NFL player who should have adjusted more quickly than a rookie. Give Jackson some time.

Every pick has some upside to them, and a risk factor on if they will achieve that level or not. Jackson and Harrell are both physical specimens that have the capacity to be special players. Only time will tell if they can be special players in the NFL, and I am of the belief that at least one of these guys steps it up, if not both.

I think there is a solid basis by which to argue that TT did, in fact, get both sides of the BPA vs. need equation wrong in the '07 draft.

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster... Harrell is young and has to get better, but I don't see him having the talent of Williams. So taking the "BPA" (and here's the crux of the argument) REGARDLESS OF POSITION, added depth to an already strong position for one year, and then facilitated the exit of Williams, constituting a step backward.

Jackson was a high pick at a position of need... He's average, or below average, at everything; and his ceiling isn't high at all. I don't want my 1st and 2nd round picks to be average. I want them to be difference makers.

Those things said, I have in general liked TT's drafts... I'm more critical of his approach to filling out a championship calibur roster. If the BPA is at a position of strength year after year, and he continues to stubbornly overstock one position, while trying to catch lightning in a bottle later in the draft or bottom feeding on the FA market to fill holes, how does he get all the holes filled with championship calibur talent???

In the end, what ends up happening you probably still have the hole, and the BPA you drafted is not going to have much of an impact b/c his position was already one of strength.

[Zool]

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster.

So I assume you believe that a rotation d-tackle is worth 6/$38mil with $16mil guaranteed? That is what pushed Williams off the roster not Harrell. If Williams was thought to be worth the money then Miur or Cole would be gone.

Williams is a good pass rusher from the inside but not overly stout against the run. I think Cleveland's 3-4 will be a much better fit for him. Plus his parting shots after getting traded and signing a huge contract show him to be petty.

[Deputy Nutz]

Interesting comment from Favre himself about his arm strength in recent years:

Not sure if you are trying to insinuate that maybe ARod has Favre's arm strength, but you can watch and see that Favre still threw harder than 90% of the starters in the league--even in his old age. Favre's arm strength ranked up there with John Elway as near the best ever. He was like a guy that came into the league throwing 100 MPH. Sure, the last couple of years, he was down a bit (and nobody said it wasn't), but he was still throwing 95-97. ARod is more like a guy who throws 91-93. ARod has good arm strength (above average), but it wasn't even at the top of his draft class. His arm strength was similar to Tarvaris Jackson coming out. A guy like Jay Cutler could probably get up there close to Favre now, but his arm strength is better than ARod's arm strength.

After watching some of Favre's games from the 90s and even though the film is bad from the 80s when Elway was in his prime I still have to go with Favre on arm strength. The absolutely silly thing is the fact that Favre was able to maintain his arm strength throughout his career, Elway lost a good bit of zip on his fastball later in his career.

[wist43]

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster.

So I assume you believe that a rotation d-tackle is worth 6/$38mil with $16mil guaranteed? That is what pushed Williams off the roster not Harrell. If Williams was thought to be worth the money then Miur or Cole would be gone.

Williams is a good pass rusher from the inside but not overly stout against the run. I think Cleveland's 3-4 will be a much better fit for him. Plus his parting shots after getting traded and signing a huge contract show him to be petty.

No, I wouldn't want to pay Williams that... but that's the advantage of reupping them early. TT broke off negotiations, drafted Harrell, and the rest is history.

Are you guys really prepared to argue that we're a better team by having used used a 1st round pick on Harrell and escorting Williams out the door???

Are you guys really prepared to argue that???

You can dance around it, but in the end, the GBP took a step backward at the DT position, and "wasted" a 1st round pick in doing it.

Even if Harrell steps it up and becomes a player equal to Williams, are we not still only as good as we were b/4 we drafted Harrell and let Williams walk. How did that improve the team??? That's the bottom line.

[Deputy Nutz]

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster.

So I assume you believe that a rotation d-tackle is worth 6/$38mil with $16mil guaranteed? That is what pushed Williams off the roster not Harrell. If Williams was thought to be worth the money then Miur or Cole would be gone.

Williams is a good pass rusher from the inside but not overly stout against the run. I think Cleveland's 3-4 will be a much better fit for him. Plus his parting shots after getting traded and signing a huge contract show him to be petty.

No, I wouldn't want to pay Williams that... but that's the advantage of reupping them early. TT broke off negotiations, drafted Harrell, and the rest is history.

Are you guys really prepared to argue that we're a better team by having used used a 1st round pick on Harrell and escorting Williams out the door???

Are you guys really prepared to argue that???

You can dance around it, but in the end, the GBP took a step backward at the DT position, and "wasted" a 1st round pick in doing it.

Even if Harrell steps it up and becomes a player equal to Williams, are we not still only as good as we were b/4 we drafted Harrell and let Williams walk. How did that improve the team??? That's the bottom line.

Or argument is just as false. Simply because Harrell has only played one year. It seems you want to compare Williams entire career in Green Bay to Harrel's one. After 4 years you can make these statements on how the Packers took a step back.

[Zool]

Maybe TT broke off the negotiations because Williams was asking for far too much money? I'm not saying that Harrell is a better player or will ever be, but his being on the team would force out the lesser players like Cole or Miur if that really was the case.

Are you ready to argue that TT flat out refused to negotiate a contract with Williams because he didn't like him? The only reason either side stops negotiating is when they are so far off in numbers that they will not reach a compromise. There's absolutely no way of saying that had we drafted a punter with the first pick that the Williams situation wouldn't have come out exactly the same.

[Patler]

No, I wouldn't want to pay Williams that... but that's the advantage of reupping them early. TT broke off negotiations, drafted Harrell, and the rest is history.

Are you guys really prepared to argue that we're a better team by having used used a 1st round pick on Harrell and escorting Williams out the door???

Are you guys really prepared to argue that???

You can dance around it, but in the end, the GBP took a step backward at the DT position, and "wasted" a 1st round pick in doing it.

Even if Harrell steps it up and becomes a player equal to Williams, are we not still only as good as we were b/4 we drafted Harrell and let Williams walk. How did that improve the team??? That's the bottom line.

Maybe they did take a step back at DT, so what? Not every single move can result in improvement at the position in question. Were the Packers better off when Wolf let Paup leave in free agency? Cecil? Bennett? Evans? Hentrich? Timmerman? I would dare guess that in the year immediately following each, there was not an improvement at the position in question. Sometimes good players are lost to other teams and have to be replaced by players not quite as good. Hopefully there are improvements in other areas that compensate for the loss.

[Tarlam!]

Wisty makes a valid point. Sign Williams, draft a non DT that helps that year.

IIRC, though, Williams wanted free agency and TT had no hand. If Harrell turns out to be what he's expected to be, then what TT got for Williams will prove to be a steal.

I think Harrell is the real deal. We'll just have to see, won't we?

[Scott Campbell]

Wist could end up being right IF Harrell busts. I'm not ready to give up on the guy just yet.

[RashanGary]

We did get Brohm in place of Williams so it's a little early to start counting your doom chickens. If Harrell turns out to be better than Williams and Brohm turns out to be a good starting QB then TT will look like a genius. It's just as easy (and equally premature) to say everything is going to go right as it is to say everything will go wrong.

[texaspackerbacker]

Wist could end up being right IF Harrell busts. I'm not ready to give up on the guy just yet.

Exactly. The jury is definitely still out on Harrell. The Packers KNEW when they drafted him that he would be way below full strength most or all of his first season, with the lingering effects of his injury. This year will tell us a lot.

As for Williams, and free agency in general, shit happens--from the team's point of view. Cleveland broke the bank for him. Even if he turns out to be a big success there--which I doubt, it would have been a big mistake to pay him that much. Sure, Thompson could have saved using a #1 pick, but you sign a bunch of borderline players for too much money, and it will bite you in the ass--probably sooner rather than later.

IMO, the Packers have gotten to the level where they are by NOT doing that.

[Badgerinmaine]

My memory is hazy, but was'nt he a 3rd rd pick?
Nick Collins was a second round pick.

[wist43]

Whether Harrell busts or not is irrelevent to my point that the position essentially remained static, and we used a 1st round pick to stay there... as Tex said, "shit happens" in FA - and that's what we're debating, but I would have pursued another path.

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell... wouldn't it have been nice to have 1st round calibur corner playing nickel last year???

I like the Brohm pick... gives us another chance at finding "the guy".

[Scott Campbell]

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell....



You've left out the 2nd round pick we received in return for Williams.

[wist43]

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell....



You've left out the 2nd round pick we received in return for Williams.

I like the Brohm pick, even if he doesn't pan out... you've got to keep looking for "the guy".

Maybe TT has to use the 2nd he used on Lee to move up to get Brohm, maybe he just takes him with the 36th pick, and doesn't take either Nelson or Lee???

If Brohm turns out, then our future looks brighter, but I would think that Brohm would have been picked at one of the two spots they had in the 2nd round anyway. TT said he was trying to trade up to get him, but he fell anyway. So if he doesn't trade Williams, we still have two 2nd's, and Brohm is likely still a Packer. It would be Lee who would be the odd pick out.

[Packnut]

My memory is hazy, but was'nt he a 3rd rd pick?
Nick Collins was a second round pick.

Thank you. I stand by my original comments. I expect more out of a second rd pick than what Collins has shown. Some guys have a nose for the ball, Nick lacks that in a big way. Hell, Rouse had his name mentioned more in a few games than Collins did the whole season.

The problem here is to many including the Packer coaching staff, has been enamored with his rookie season. How many years do you give a guy before you cut your loss?

[Tarlam!]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out! :drma:

[Zool]

He matter of factly stated that Harrells drafting is what pushed Williams out the door. Thats the only point I have a problem with.

[MadtownPacker]

I like the Brohm pick... gives us another chance at finding "the guy".Exactly. TT knows there is no sure thing and while he backs ARod publicly his draft actions tell you everything you need to know. It is not a diss on Rodgers at all. He will get more then his fair shot at keeping the starting gig.

[texaspackerbacker]

Wist, you make a good argument about having Williams instead of Harrell and using the #1 pick for a Corner or whatever--even with us getting the #2, as somebody pointed out. And yes, with the cap situation last year, we probably could have gotten away with overpaying for Williams. My point, however, is that is a bad policy, and you do it very many times, and suddenly you are the Vikings or Raiders or whatever, instead of the Packers.

I look at Harrell, and I see a big mobile guy, who could indeed, be a bust, but who, given Thompson's record for picking successes, could be really special--we can always hope.

As for drafting Brohm, I wouldn't have done it, but then I'm not Ted Thompson. We could have, and in fact did, draft another decent QB in a much later round who probably has just about as good a chance to be a serviceable backup and potential long term first stringer.

[LL2]

Since Ron Wolf ran the show in Packerland GB has always kept its cupboards stocked with QB’s It’s a smart thing to do, so the Brohm pick is insurance and a smart pick. These are just a few of the QB’s we had during Favre’s career – Mark Brunell, Ty Detmer, Aarron Brooks, Matt Hasselbeck, and Kurt Warner. They all have been decent to pretty good starting QB’s in this league.

[RashanGary]

It will be interesting to compare Corey Williams career from age 28 - retirement to Brian Brohms career from age 22 - retirement. Williams is a good player for sure, but who knows, maybe the guy we got in place of him will be good too. Maybe even better and maybe he'll have a more positive impact than Williams ever had or ever has on any team he plays for.

As far as Harrell goes, he could be a multi probowler and future Packer HOFer.

We'll find out. This is a big year for Harrell and Brohm has a long career ahead of him to prove he (and all of the cap relief) was worth what we gave up to get him (and the cap relief).


This is a young team with many players that will be getting paid. When we are against the cap and we need that last 6 mil per year to put us over the top, I think it will be a good time to bring this discussion back up because there is a cause and effect chain of events that happens with every decision and this one is just getting started.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Labeling players busts before they even reach year 3 is probably the most ignorant thing any football fan can do.

I see you guys bashing Harrell and it's just so ridiculous, there is no reason for it. The kid hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet.

And you guys think a rookie nickleback or Reggie Nelson would've taken us to the promised land? Don't forget the Jags already had a great D before Nelson even stepped on board, you think he wouldve looked as good in Atlanta or St. Louis?

Every time i stick up for Harrell all I get for it is being called a homer, when the truth of the matter is everyone is judging this kid prematurely, way prematurely.

Want a quick example? look at Roddy White last year, garbage until his 3rd year and then the kid explodes with joey harrington throwing him the ball.

Some people need to get a clue.

[wist43]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out! :drma:

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...

[cheesner]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out! :drma:

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...
You are right, Harrell will likely never tally a lot of sacks for himself. That isn't his game. What is his game is collapsing the pocket. He is very quick and very strong. Guards will get thrown back, although he does not have the ability, at this point, to get around a blocker, he really doesn't need to. QBs will not be able to step up and make throws, so they will have to make less than perfect throws (cbs get more ints) or roll out (DEs should therefore get more sacks). Although the stats won't show it, JH can make this defense much better. Corey Williams was a solid player, perhaps better than average, but he by no means is the type of player that JH can be.

[Freak Out]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out! :drma:

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...
You are right, Harrell will likely never tally a lot of sacks for himself. That isn't his game. What is his game is collapsing the pocket. He is very quick and very strong. Guards will get thrown back, although he does not have the ability, at this point, to get around a blocker, he really doesn't need to. QBs will not be able to step up and make throws, so they will have to make less than perfect throws (cbs get more ints) or roll out (DEs should therefore get more sacks). Although the stats won't show it, JH can make this defense much better. Corey Williams was a solid player, perhaps better than average, but he by no means is the type of player that JH can be.

If Harrell can stay healthy and stuff the run consistently he was well worth the pick. Damn...it seems like only yesterday we could be run on all game long.
I think Brohm was taken to high but if Rogers goes down we'll be happy we have him as well as Flynn. I have no problem with TT going the youth route in the QB department considering who was available as a FA.

[Brandon494]

OK, I again make the observation that Wist has a valid point.

I disagree, though, that Williams is as good as Wist assumes, going forward. If Williams turns out to be a pro bowler, which he isn't today, then, Wist is in the right.

If Harrell does, then clearly, Wist will need surgery to remove "foot from mouth". As in his Barnett punishment for nigh on 3 years.

But his point cannot really be disputed at this time. Nor is it confirmed.

Can't wait to see how it turns out! :drma:

Tar, I'm not saying that Williams is a pro bowl DT, I'm saying he's a solid, young, and productive player. A valuable part of the DL rotation - or should I say, WAS.

Harrell, if we're lucky, will be as good as Williams... I don't see him being better, he doesn't have the foot speed to ever be much of a pass rusher. He'll be part of the rotation, but I just don't see how the swap improved the team.

Brohm is a seperate issue, and as I said earlier I suspect he would have been a Packer regardless of whether we got that 2nd round pick from Cleveland or not. Of course that's speculation, we'll never know, but as I said TT was actively looking to move up to snag Brohm as the 2nd round wore on. Who knows, with only two 2nd round picks, maybe he plays it differently and ends up trading up from the other 2nd round pick that turned into Lee???

Just scernarios...
You are right, Harrell will likely never tally a lot of sacks for himself. That isn't his game. What is his game is collapsing the pocket. He is very quick and very strong. Guards will get thrown back, although he does not have the ability, at this point, to get around a blocker, he really doesn't need to. QBs will not be able to step up and make throws, so they will have to make less than perfect throws (cbs get more ints) or roll out (DEs should therefore get more sacks). Although the stats won't show it, JH can make this defense much better. Corey Williams was a solid player, perhaps better than average, but he by no means is the type of player that JH can be.

If Harrell can stay healthy and stuff the run consistently he was well worth the pick. Damn...it seems like only yesterday we could be run on all game long.
I think Brohm was taken to high but if Rogers goes down we'll be happy we have him as well as Flynn. I have no problem with TT going the youth route in the QB department considering who was available as a FA.

You think taking Brohm in the 2nd round was too high? This guy would have been a first rounder in last years draft. Getting him in the 2nd round was a steal.

[Brandon494]

Also I dont really know how this Brohm thread got moved to a Harrell thread but how about we see what the guy can do when he is completely healthy. Not only was he a rookie last season but he also was not a 100%. Way too premature to be calling these guy a bust.

[Guiness]

Harrel a bust? I didn't see where anyone said, or even insinuated that.

What is being said is that it's not certain Harrel will be a lot better than Williams - who by all accounts, was a pretty damn good player! And that if he's a marginal upgrade, or not an upgrade at all, then it was a bad pick - not that he's a bust, but that the pick could've been better used.

[Tarlam!]

...if he's a marginal upgrade, or not an upgrade at all, then it was a bad pick - not that he's a bust, but that the pick could've been better used.

Which is exactly why I am prepared to concede the point to Wist. It's a valid point.

Harrell's contract data http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFl&id=4214 states that he 14 million over 6 years. Year one he was not really mentionable and year 6 we'll renegotiate anyways. So, in reality we're looking at 14 / 4. That amounts to 3.5 million p.a.

Williams would have cost us a lot more, IIRC. He wanted blockbuster money. He got one. http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=Nfl&id=2876

So, if the talent level remains simply equal, TT did a good job IMHO. He got same quality for better value. It all comes down to Harrell playing as well as Williams.

Now, throw the Brohm pick in and you have an improved ball club.

Wisty, your point is valid, but if Harrell comes good, we are btter off.

[Brandon494]

Now that Williams has his money I really dont see him being as productive as he was with the Pack. Can you say C. Hunt?

[StPaulPackFan]

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell... wouldn't it have been nice to have 1st round calibur corner playing nickel last year???


Right or wrong I don't think TT, or the coaching staff for that matter, saw Williams as the high caliber player that some around here do. IMO, TT wanted a difference maker at DT. Other than Pickett, who is solid, no other DT fit that mold. TT obviously thinks Harrell does.

Sure Williams had 7 sacks last year. Unfortunately, when he was pushed into the starting rotation in week 12 he recorded only 1 sack over the next 8 games. IMO, this is what ultimately sealed his fate in GB.

[Packnut]

Labeling players busts before they even reach year 3 is probably the most ignorant thing any football fan can do.

I see you guys bashing Harrell and it's just so ridiculous, there is no reason for it. The kid hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet.

And you guys think a rookie nickleback or Reggie Nelson would've taken us to the promised land? Don't forget the Jags already had a great D before Nelson even stepped on board, you think he wouldve looked as good in Atlanta or St. Louis?

Every time i stick up for Harrell all I get for it is being called a homer, when the truth of the matter is everyone is judging this kid prematurely, way prematurely.





Want a quick example? look at Roddy White last year, garbage until his 3rd year and then the kid explodes with joey harrington throwing him the ball.

Some people need to get a clue.


Your comments about Nelson are INSANE! The kid was all-rookie. He had 5 picks as a rookie. Has Collins even had that many in 3 years? You have no way of knowing what Nelson would have done. May-be he lays out Burress in the championship game? You DON"T KNOW. What I do know and what is FACT, is Harrell did NOTHING in the championship game.

I do totally agree with you on one thing though, some people indeed have no clue. :wink:

[wist43]

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell... wouldn't it have been nice to have 1st round calibur corner playing nickel last year???


Right or wrong I don't think TT, or the coaching staff for that matter, saw Williams as the high caliber player that some around here do. IMO, TT wanted a difference maker at DT. Other than Pickett, who is solid, no other DT fit that mold. TT obviously thinks Harrell does.

Sure Williams had 7 sacks last year. Unfortunately, when he was pushed into the starting rotation in week 12 he recorded only 1 sack over the next 8 games. IMO, this is what ultimately sealed his fate in GB.

TT didn't see Williams as a high calibur player??? He tagged him at what??? a 1st and 3rd (or 4th, didn't they change the compensation of the tags???); anyway... he wasn't worth that of course, but it set the stage for someone to make a more substantial offer - I was glad when TT tagged him, but as I've said, my preference would have been to just sign him last offseason.

Williams had what??? 14 1/2 sacks from the DT position in 2 years??? That's a very good sack total for an interior linemen... but, more than the sack numbers, he provided consistant pressure up the middle.

Jolly going down hurt not only the DL, it hurt the entire defense... Harrell simply wasn't even good enough to put on the field, so everybody else had to pull extra snaps - how many games was Harrell inactive, despite the need for a DT, and the fact that he was healthy???

And when they finally did throw him to the wolves he got his ass handed to him - Harrell not being able to pull his weight pulled the entire DL down.

Harrell played, but it was only b/c of his draft status and injuries... I'm not going to label him a bust b/c, of course, 1 year does not a bust make, but he's certainly off to a bad start.

[Deputy Nutz]

Harrell was going to get significant snaps and then hurt himself during the bye week. It took a month for him to get over his ankle injury and then he was able to contribute to the defense and defensive line when Pickett missed the last two games of the season. He contributed during the playoffs as well. He didn't set the world on fire but he certainly didn't make himself look foolish.

What I still don't understand is why we all think we are smarter than Ted Thompson. I guess this is what we do, come on a forum and disect a singular move by Thompson and either condemn him before the fact that all players in the deal have matured one way or another.

Harrell could be the next big time run stuffer, and all the bashers won't be seen around here for another 6 months. Or Harrell could end up sitting on his fat ass and we will never hear the end of the bashers on how they called out the bust of Harrell and the foolishness of Thompson.

If any of you take the time to sit at home in the dark and break down film of 90% of the college football players out there, and when you are finished with that you can break down film of all the current players in the NFL. After you do this then you can honestly claim that Thompson has no idea what the hell he is doing.

Sure some of your aruguments make sense, but I am sure the Packer front office took a longer and more painstaking aproach then all of us combined on the trade of Williams and the drafting of Harrell.

[Lurker64]

TT didn't see Williams as a high calibur player??? He tagged him at what??? a 1st and 3rd (or 4th, didn't they change the compensation of the tags???); anyway... he wasn't worth that of course, but it set the stage for someone to make a more substantial offer - I was glad when TT tagged him, but as I've said, my preference would have been to just sign him last offseason.

Thompson applied the non-Exclusive franchise tag to him. He had three options available:

Exclusive Franchise Tag: Paid the average of the top 5 highest paid players at his position in the upcoming season and may not negotiate with any other team.

Non-Exclusive Franchise Tag: Paid the average of the top 5 highest paid players at his position in the previous season, and may negotiate and sign an offer sheet with any other team who signs him owing the tagging team two first round picks as compensation. The tagging team has the right of first refusal to match any offer.

Transition Tag: Paid the average of the top 10 highest paid players at his position in the previous season. May negotiate and sign an offer sheet with any other team, with the tagging team having to right of first refusal. If he ends up with another team, no compensation is granted.

TT really only had one reasonable choice here, the one he pursued. I wouldn't say that "TT applied the only tag that makes sense to use in this situation" can really be used as evidence of Thompson's high opinion of Harrell. I'm not sure whether or not trading him was the right decision, but I'm happy to give Thompson the benefit of the doubt. Some things I saw last year led me to believe Harrell has a lot of upside, but like most DTs, he will take a year or two to really adapt to the NFL game.

[Chester Marcol]

Harrell was going to get significant snaps and then hurt himself during the bye week. It took a month for him to get over his ankle injury and then he was able to contribute to the defense and defensive line when Pickett missed the last two games of the season. He contributed during the playoffs as well. He didn't set the world on fire but he certainly didn't make himself look foolish.

What I still don't understand is why we all think we are smarter than Ted Thompson. I guess this is what we do, come on a forum and disect a singular move by Thompson and either condemn him before the fact that all players in the deal have matured one way or another.

Harrell could be the next big time run stuffer, and all the bashers won't be seen around here for another 6 months. Or Harrell could end up sitting on his fat ass and we will never hear the end of the bashers on how they called out the bust of Harrell and the foolishness of Thompson.

If any of you take the time to sit at home in the dark and break down film of 90% of the college football players out there, and when you are finished with that you can break down film of all the current players in the NFL. After you do this then you can honestly claim that Thompson has no idea what the hell he is doing.

Sure some of your aruguments make sense, but I am sure the Packer front office took a longer and more painstaking aproach then all of us combined on the trade of Williams and the drafting of Harrell.

The major problem is that fans think in the "right now" to where as a GM better be thinking at least a couple years out. Did the deal make the most sense for this season? Maybe, maybe not. Does it make more sense 2 or 3 seasons down the road? That's where TT keeps or loses his job.

Another aspect that I don't think anyone has brought up is the ramifications of paying Williams more than Picket, Kampman, or Jenkins who are more every down players than Williams. Do you think that would really go unnoticed? I think keeping the peace is more important than over paying for a rotational guy.

[StPaulPackFan]

Call me crazy, but I'm sober enough to argue that Williams and a 1st round pick from last year at a position of need, is better than Harrell... wouldn't it have been nice to have 1st round calibur corner playing nickel last year???


Right or wrong I don't think TT, or the coaching staff for that matter, saw Williams as the high caliber player that some around here do. IMO, TT wanted a difference maker at DT. Other than Pickett, who is solid, no other DT fit that mold. TT obviously thinks Harrell does.

Sure Williams had 7 sacks last year. Unfortunately, when he was pushed into the starting rotation in week 12 he recorded only 1 sack over the next 8 games. IMO, this is what ultimately sealed his fate in GB.

TT didn't see Williams as a high calibur player??? He tagged him at what??? a 1st and 3rd (or 4th, didn't they change the compensation of the tags???); anyway... he wasn't worth that of course, but it set the stage for someone to make a more substantial offer - I was glad when TT tagged him, but as I've said, my preference would have been to just sign him last offseason.

Williams had what??? 14 1/2 sacks from the DT position in 2 years??? That's a very good sack total for an interior linemen... but, more than the sack numbers, he provided consistant pressure up the middle.

Jolly going down hurt not only the DL, it hurt the entire defense... Harrell simply wasn't even good enough to put on the field, so everybody else had to pull extra snaps - how many games was Harrell inactive, despite the need for a DT, and the fact that he was healthy???

And when they finally did throw him to the wolves he got his ass handed to him - Harrell not being able to pull his weight pulled the entire DL down.

Harrell played, but it was only b/c of his draft status and injuries... I'm not going to label him a bust b/c, of course, 1 year does not a bust make, but he's certainly off to a bad start.

If TT thought CW was such a high caliber player don't you think he would have secured him with a long-term contract? They have the cap space. It appears the tag was put on him so that they didn't lose him without any compensation. They sure jumped on that trade fast enough, even though Cleveland wasn't offering a 1st and a 3rd... I'm not saying he's not a decent player. IMO, he's just not as good as you think he is.

As far as the 14 sacks, I still go back to the last 8 games of last year. His snap count went up but his sack total went down. I know sack counts aren't everything but I don't remember him standing out too much either during that stretch. In fact, the whole defense seemed to taper off after Jolly was injured. Either teams figured CW out or he's just less effective when he plays more. Either way its not a good thing.

[HarveyWallbangers]

McGinn posted the stats for each DL, and Williams sacks were highly disproportional to amount of pressures he had. I think he's a solid pass rusher, but he's not nearly as good as his sack total would make you think. The Packers got a GREAT deal by getting a 2nd round pick for him while saving the cap space also. The way Thompson's moves have been working, don't be surprised when Harrell becomes a good player and this whole scenario makes him look like a genius again.

[run pMc]

My 2 cents:

I think Harrell will be as good as Williams, for less money. It's way too early to call it a good or bad pick.

I think dealing Williams (who got a big time contract for being a platoon player) for a R2 was a good deal for GB. There will be a bunch of players due for resigning in the next 2 years, and having the salary space will be nice so I don't have to read about how TT could have avoided another Sharper-Wahle-Rivera situation for the next 3 years.

Corey Williams was a good player for GB, but I'd rather show Ryan Grant the money.

Drafting Thompson puts pressure on Hunter and Montgomery. Maybe he can give Kampman a few snaps off. Jenkins should be healthy, and KGB will hopefully use the whispers of age and salary to motivate him. Cole was resigned. Pickett and Kampmann were the difference makers on the DL. Trading Williams wasn't a death blow to the DL -- GB still has some capable players on the DL.

I think getting Brohm in R2 is a very good pick for depth at QB. I'm not totally enamored with Brohm, but I like his accuracy and that he's supposedly got good football IQ. Supposedly Brohm would have been a top 5 pick if he had declared last year for the draft...so apparently he's got talent.

With that in mind, I believe M3 can coach Brohm up -- hopefully into a starting quality QB. M3 got Pro Bowl quality play out of Aaron Brooks.

I'd rather TT drafted Brohm than dealt the R2 pick for some schmuck like Dan Orlovsky.

I'm looking forward to the camps and hearing some news. With all the young players and rookies, I'm optimistic this team will improve.

[texaspackerbacker]

Those claiming the Packers likely would have been better off last season re-signing Williams and drafting somebody other than Harrell are correct. However, Thompson obviously was looking at the big picture--beyond merely last season--not only using the #1 pick for somebody who would replace Williams, but taking a guy whose injury definitely downgraded his first year performance.

Overpaying Williams--which is what it would have taken to outbid or match what Cleveland paid--would have done harm in several ways. While we had the cap room at the time, it would have hurt in future years. Also, it would have set a bad precedent, making future signings more difficult.

I hate it when people talked last year about rebuilding, as I see Thompson doing exactly what I always advocated, NOT tearing down, but rebuilding on the fly.

The real heart of the argument is being pleased with 13-3/14-4 and making it to the NFC Championship versus being displeased with losing to a probably inferior team that went on to win the Super Bowl. I can see both points of view on that, but I'm generally pleased, given where the Packers came from 1 and 2 years earlier.