Moral Hazards and Happy Meals for the Circle Jerk

[HowardRoark]

I have been informed that this place is nothing more than a circle jerk for Conservatives. To that end, I would be interested in what the Conservatives think on a couple of issues.

1. Do you think that there should have been more Government regulation in the mortgage business over the past few years? Should the Fed not have provided a backstop to the toxic Bear Stearns debt so that JP Morgan could take them over? Should the “invisible hand” be left alone in times like this; Freddie, Fannie, etc.?

2. What about consumerism run amok? It cracks me up when I have to debate someone on Capitalism v. Socialism. Capitalism works. I wonder about what the outcome is when Capitalism really starts clicking on all cylinders as it now has in a worldwide market since the fall of Communism. I had to build another room in my basement for all the cheap shit from China that my kid’s grandparents bring over all the time. Hell, you can’t even eat at McDonalds without leaving with some kind of trinket. Do we as U.S. citizens have to come to the realization that the “salad days” of Capitalism are when a society is building a middle class?
BTW, Ty…if you are out there, did you know a guy named David Einhorn in high school?

[mraynrand]

did you know a guy named David Einhorn in high school?


I knew his sister, Lois Einhorn. She looked a little like the placekicker Ray Finkel - or Sean Young.

[Scott Campbell]

.........cheap shit from China.........



It ain't just cheap shit anymore. Even the expensive stuff can come from there now, though it's cheaper from them than from the usual suspects.


And what the hell is a pivot man?

[mraynrand]

Scott: What the hell is a pivot man?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Should the “invisible hand” be left alone

is this one of the circle games?

[Iron Mike]

http://www.carlspackler.com/archive/cs_223.jpg

Spaulding, get your foot off of the boat!!!!!

[HowardRoark]

Should the “invisible hand” be left alone

is this one of the circle games?

You're the one talking about your carpal tunnel.

[Freak Out]

I'm an Alaskan liberal which some might call a Libertarian....here goes.

1. When Congress called for Greenspan and his ilk to come up with mortgage regs/oversight in the late 90s it should have happened but he felt none was needed and the issue was dropped.
There is not a chance in hell of the Fed Gov letting Freddie and Fannie die....we would see a global meltdown. What are we talking here..? Three trillion in debt held by the two? There is no fucking way we let them slide. Bear Stearns was another of the necessary evils that had to be helped....the consequences could have been double fugly. I hate to see our tax dollars used this way but not doing so would cost us much more in the long run.

2. Ugh.....my head hurts and I need a drink.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm an Alaskan liberal which some might call a Libertarian....here goes.

1. When Congress called for Greenspan and his ilk to come up with mortgage regs/oversight in the late 90s it should have happened but he felt none was needed and the issue was dropped.
There is not a chance in hell of the Fed Gov letting Freddie and Fannie die....we would see a global meltdown. What are we talking here..? Three trillion in debt held by the two? There is no fucking way we let them slide. Bear Stearns was another of the necessary evils that had to be helped....the consequences could have been double fugly. I hate to see our tax dollars used this way but not doing so would cost us much more in the long run.


Bingo. I told my kids it would there would have been a run on the banks, just like the one they watched in It's a Wonderful Life.

[HowardRoark]

I'm an Alaskan liberal which some might call a Libertarian....here goes.

1. When Congress called for Greenspan and his ilk to come up with mortgage regs/oversight in the late 90s it should have happened but he felt none was needed and the issue was dropped.
There is not a chance in hell of the Fed Gov letting Freddie and Fannie die....we would see a global meltdown. What are we talking here..? Three trillion in debt held by the two? There is no fucking way we let them slide. Bear Stearns was another of the necessary evils that had to be helped....the consequences could have been double fugly. I hate to see our tax dollars used this way but not doing so would cost us much more in the long run.

2. Ugh.....my head hurts and I need a drink.

I think it's around 5-6 trillion. I agree with you on the two of them, they can't fail.

Indymac bit the dust tonight.

Look where the heroic Greenspan landed:

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/01/greenspan-to-join-hedge-fund-paulson-co.html

[Freak Out]

I heard about Indymac this afternoon. Scary stuff...people were draining it until the "authorities" stepped in.
These are some ominous signs my Packer loving friends.

[Freak Out]

Thanks a damn good blog Howard....thanks.

[mraynrand]

If FM and FM get 'bailed out' it's essentially a 'loan' from the government. All that means is that they 'make' more fiat currency with the end result being that the dollar is devalued even more. So it's like this massive hidden tax in that every goddamn dollar is worth less than it was the day before. That's the way I see it - did I miss something?

This whole thing stinks like shit. It's a frickin' snowball effect. People with bad loans default, housing in general gets devalued; they bail out Bear Stearnes, the dollar gets more devalued. Now responsible people with decent loans find that their homes are worth far less than the loans - so why keep paying? Add to that outrageous gas prices that are shooting up because there is no supply increase on the horizon and you have a 'perfect storm.' The Congress should authorize off shore and ANWR drilling and push it immediately - it's bad enough that supply is pushing prices, but futures are all out of whack too. Increase fuel costs even more, devalue currency, and lot more people are going to walk away from their homes. KABOOM!!!!

[bobblehead]

This wasn't a circle jerk for conservatives when I got here. I actually engaged liberals quite a bit, but they get really pissy when they can't pull the same old crap over and over and try to shame you into submission. Tank and hoosier have pretty much disappeared and what we are left with is those who don't really debate and those who only think they are debating but can't let go of that liberal tactic of saying we are all closed minded so and so's therefore no matter how bad we bury them with logic it doesn't count.

[Freak Out]

This wasn't a circle jerk for conservatives when I got here. I actually engaged liberals quite a bit, but they get really pissy when they can't pull the same old crap over and over and try to shame you into submission. Tank and hoosier have pretty much disappeared and what we are left with is those who don't really debate and those who only think they are debating but can't let go of that liberal tactic of saying we are all closed minded so and so's therefore no matter how bad we bury them with logic it doesn't count.

:?:

[HowardRoark]

If FM and FM get 'bailed out' it's essentially a 'loan' from the government. All that means is that they 'make' more fiat currency with the end result being that the dollar is devalued even more. So it's like this massive hidden tax in that every goddamn dollar is worth less than it was the day before. That's the way I see it - did I miss something?

This whole thing stinks like shit. It's a frickin' snowball effect. People with bad loans default, housing in general gets devalued; they bail out Bear Stearnes, the dollar gets more devalued. Now responsible people with decent loans find that their homes are worth far less than the loans - so why keep paying? Add to that outrageous gas prices that are shooting up because there is no supply increase on the horizon and you have a 'perfect storm.' The Congress should authorize off shore and ANWR drilling and push it immediately - it's bad enough that supply is pushing prices, but futures are all out of whack too. Increase fuel costs even more, devalue currency, and lot more people are going to walk away from their homes. KABOOM!!!!

At first blush I would agree with you on the dollar thing, but did you notice the bond market today? It tanked. Rates pushed higher because of what you just mentioned….printing of money for bail outs. If rates start pushing higher, the dollar will finally strengthen too. Once the buck strengthens, we will see oil come down.

But this whole mark to market on these bonds is not good. Balance sheets are UGLY everywhere.

Barack Obama is a Pivot Man, just wait. He will triangulate in three dimensions if that's possible.

[Freak Out]

If FM and FM get 'bailed out' it's essentially a 'loan' from the government. All that means is that they 'make' more fiat currency with the end result being that the dollar is devalued even more. So it's like this massive hidden tax in that every goddamn dollar is worth less than it was the day before. That's the way I see it - did I miss something?

This whole thing stinks like shit. It's a frickin' snowball effect. People with bad loans default, housing in general gets devalued; they bail out Bear Stearnes, the dollar gets more devalued. Now responsible people with decent loans find that their homes are worth far less than the loans - so why keep paying? Add to that outrageous gas prices that are shooting up because there is no supply increase on the horizon and you have a 'perfect storm.' The Congress should authorize off shore and ANWR drilling and push it immediately - it's bad enough that supply is pushing prices, but futures are all out of whack too. Increase fuel costs even more, devalue currency, and lot more people are going to walk away from their homes. KABOOM!!!!

It could come to Congress having to do something like that. They had to do it when we built the Trans Alaska line and they can do it again. Hammer every member of congress from...Colorado? Is that where you live? They should be pro minerals extraction already but who knows.

[Freak Out]

The pivot man! Ha ha.... :lol:

[mraynrand]

Barack Obama is a Pivot Man, just wait. He will triangulate in three dimensions if that's possible.

I gotta see if I can get a Rubiks cube with the same exact picture of Obama on every side - the new everyman - he's everything to everyone! (plus, he's easy to solve)

[Scott Campbell]

Is it time to make sure that you have no more than $100K at any single financial institution? Or is that overly paranoid?

[mraynrand]

Is it time to make sure that you have no more than $100K at any single financial institution? Or is that overly paranoid?

I just split up my 250 dollars in savings - I put 100 in my sock drawer, 50 in the coffee can, and the other hundred buried in the yard. I'll retrieve them in a week when I need to fill up my gas tank.

[HowardRoark]

I am doing a little list of things we no longer can do on our own, but now need the helping hand of a central government:

1. Retirement planning
2. Healthcare
3. Housing, via mortgages
4. Educating our kids

I am sure I missing some………..

From the Financial Times this AM:

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2008/07/time-for-comrade-paulson-the-pull-the-plug-on-the-fannie-and-freddie-charade/

[mraynrand]

I am doing a little list of things we no longer can do on our own, but now need the helping hand of a central government:

1. Retirement planning
2. Healthcare
3. Housing, via mortgages
4. Educating our kids

I am sure I missing some………..

From the Financial Times this AM:

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2008/07/time-for-comrade-paulson-the-pull-the-plug-on-the-fannie-and-freddie-charade/

Determine pay scales for all employees across all fields.

Obama wants a federal agency to assign relative worth to various jobs, so as to 'eliminate disparity in pay' between men and women. Hopefully, this will lead to the government deciding all salaries. This will have the added benefit that most businesses will save tons of money by not having to hire a payroll office. The government will figure it all out for every job in the country. Thank you Uncle Sam for lifting this terrible burden off our shoulders!

[MJZiggy]

I can agree with you on housing and education, but I've recently had to deal with supplying my own health coverage and that's not something that someone without a lot of resources can do. If I hadn't gotten my job, I likely would have had to go without and in a non-life threatening emergency would have bankrupted me to get treatment. I think healthcare is one thing that should not be dependent on money.

And the thing about retirement is that while we all know we should do it, not everyone does. Even with work sponsored 401Ks and IRAs how often are we already hearing about 50-year olds who haven't saved a thing toward retirement? So we'll have 80 year olds taking jobs that should be going to younger workers because they can't afford to retire. And the streets will be littered with little old homeless people!! :shock:

[oregonpackfan]

Is it time to make sure that you have no more than $100K at any single financial institution? Or is that overly paranoid?

I just split up my 250 dollars in savings - I put 100 in my sock drawer, 50 in the coffee can, and the other hundred buried in the yard. I'll retrieve them in a week when I need to fill up my gas tank.

Sounds like you need to hire a new financial planner! :)

[HowardRoark]

Cars too?

http://www.team.net/www/ktud/jpgz/601_2.jpg

[HowardRoark]

Damn internets!!!!

That thing sure is big.

[bobblehead]

Is it time to make sure that you have no more than $100K at any single financial institution? Or is that overly paranoid?

If you don't look at the balance sheet I would say that is a good idea. Most banks doing just fine and are in no danger, but I would say it is very likely at least one moderately sized bank could fail.

[MJZiggy]

Is it time to make sure that you have no more than $100K at any single financial institution? Or is that overly paranoid?

I'd say that's a problem I don't need to worry about, and won't for quite some time...

[Scott Campbell]

Is it time to make sure that you have no more than $100K at any single financial institution? Or is that overly paranoid?

I'd say that's a problem I don't need to worry about, and won't for quite some time...



Even if not directly, it will hurt indirectly. The collapse of banking in this country would cripple us.

[bobblehead]

Is it time to make sure that you have no more than $100K at any single financial institution? Or is that overly paranoid?

I'd say that's a problem I don't need to worry about, and won't for quite some time...



Even if not directly, it will hurt indirectly. The collapse of banking in this country would cripple us.

btw, indymac bank out of california was taken over by the feds today when it collapsed, I haven't read the whole story yet.

[bobblehead]

I can agree with you on housing and education, but I've recently had to deal with supplying my own health coverage and that's not something that someone without a lot of resources can do. If I hadn't gotten my job, I likely would have had to go without and in a non-life threatening emergency would have bankrupted me to get treatment. I think healthcare is one thing that should not be dependent on money.

And the thing about retirement is that while we all know we should do it, not everyone does. Even with work sponsored 401Ks and IRAs how often are we already hearing about 50-year olds who haven't saved a thing toward retirement? So we'll have 80 year olds taking jobs that should be going to younger workers because they can't afford to retire. And the streets will be littered with little old homeless people!! :shock:

so your answer to your expensive healthcare problem is to let a group who have run up 59 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities be in charge of your healthcare? And as far as 50 year olds who didn't save for retirement, whos fault is that, and do you really think a 1000 a month check from uncle sam fixes that problem?

[mraynrand]

]I think healthcare is one thing that should not be dependent on money.


Well too bad, because it is. It costs real money to develop and produce drugs, it costs real money and 10-12 years of your life in school after high school to become a physician, and it costs money to keep the doors of a hospital open and ship your injured ass in on a helicopter. There are problems all over the healthcare system, from suppliers gouging to unions fighting for cadillac coverages, to huge end-of-life expenses, to people demanding all sorts of care they don't need. But one thing is certain: so long as people see it as 'a basic human right' and divorced from being 'dependent on money' we're going to have a hell of a time fixing problems in the system. It ISN'T free, and if more people treated it like other commodities they value (like TVs, cars, phones, food) instead of treating it like it's air - free for all to breath - it wouldn't cost so damn much.

And BTW, in most cases it actually isn't dependent on money. In most areas, the county hospitals provide tons of free care, and in many cases, the care is actually better than private institutes, especially for things like trauma.

[Scott Campbell]

I think I'm going to break rank on health care. There are too many people who do everything right that end up getting dropped by providers and royally screwed. And I'm not talking about the typical screwups who can't hold a job. I'm talking about lots of responsible tax paying contributors to society that followed the rules and paid their premiums.

[Freak Out]

People over profit when it comes to healthcare as far as I'm concerned. All healthcare professionals need to be compensated accordingly and funding can be supplied for all the research in the world but our nations healthcare foundations should not be set in Wall Street concrete.

[Freak Out]

BTW....which one of you Randians (?) is the Pivot Man in this CJ? John Gault?

[MJZiggy]

]I think healthcare is one thing that should not be dependent on money.


Well too bad, because it is. It costs real money to develop and produce drugs, it costs real money and 10-12 years of your life in school after high school to become a physician, and it costs money to keep the doors of a hospital open and ship your injured ass in on a helicopter. There are problems all over the healthcare system, from suppliers gouging to unions fighting for cadillac coverages, to huge end-of-life expenses, to people demanding all sorts of care they don't need. But one thing is certain: so long as people see it as 'a basic human right' and divorced from being 'dependent on money' we're going to have a hell of a time fixing problems in the system. It ISN'T free, and if more people treated it like other commodities they value (like TVs, cars, phones, food) instead of treating it like it's air - free for all to breath - it wouldn't cost so damn much.

And BTW, in most cases it actually isn't dependent on money. In most areas, the county hospitals provide tons of free care, and in many cases, the care is actually better than private institutes, especially for things like trauma.

I never said it was free--that hospitals and doctors and drug companies shouldn't be paid for their services. The fact remains that these services are necessary for the people who need them--and everybody needs them. The reason HMO's ever became popular in the first place is that the insurance companies came to realize that it was cheaper to keep the population healthy than it was to pay for rehabilitative care and preventable emergencies. If the people cramming the emergency rooms for their basic care were covered and could get that care from a doctor, then the Emergency Room could go back to treating emergencies. My question becomes this then, and we've all heard it before: if you don't want the government handling insurance, how do you plan to make sure that everyone has access to preventative healthcare? (or would you rather have to fork out $700 each time an indigent shows up at the ER with the flu that's turned into pneumonia? 'cause basically that's what you have to do now)

[HowardRoark]

BTW....which one of you Randians (?) is the Pivot Man in this CJ? John Gault?

Who is John Galt?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

BTW, Ty…if you are out there, did you know a guy named David Einhorn in high school?

Einhorn? that sounds suspiciously jewish. Ty would not hang with people with jewishy sounding names.

I prefer good, american names like nelson.

Ty is aware of many successful (and, when we really think about it..is there any other kind) hebes from the Miltown area. Ellen Freidman, Jon Steuer, Howie Epstein, jerry and dave zucker,

[HowardRoark]

BTW, Ty…if you are out there, did you know a guy named David Einhorn in high school?

Einhorn? that sounds suspiciously jewish. Ty would not hang with people with jewishy sounding names.

I prefer good, american names like nelson.

Ty is aware of many successful (and, when we really think about it..is there any other kind) hebes from the Miltown area. Ellen Freidman, Jon Steuer, Howie Epstein, jerry and dave zucker,

Hit The Googles on Einhorn. He helped bring Lehman (or is that Nelson?) Brothers down. One of your own from the Noth Side in 1984. I like his book.

Quit playing the poor is me anti-Semit card, It's getting old.

What do you knw about the RJC? I was told tonight they will bring Obama down later this year.

[bobblehead]

I think I'm going to break rank on health care. There are too many people who do everything right that end up getting dropped by providers and royally screwed. And I'm not talking about the typical screwups who can't hold a job. I'm talking about lots of responsible tax paying contributors to society that followed the rules and paid their premiums.

We need certain reforms, no doubt, but gov't run healthcare is not a solution to anything except low taxes.

[bobblehead]

]I think healthcare is one thing that should not be dependent on money.


Well too bad, because it is. It costs real money to develop and produce drugs, it costs real money and 10-12 years of your life in school after high school to become a physician, and it costs money to keep the doors of a hospital open and ship your injured ass in on a helicopter. There are problems all over the healthcare system, from suppliers gouging to unions fighting for cadillac coverages, to huge end-of-life expenses, to people demanding all sorts of care they don't need. But one thing is certain: so long as people see it as 'a basic human right' and divorced from being 'dependent on money' we're going to have a hell of a time fixing problems in the system. It ISN'T free, and if more people treated it like other commodities they value (like TVs, cars, phones, food) instead of treating it like it's air - free for all to breath - it wouldn't cost so damn much.

And BTW, in most cases it actually isn't dependent on money. In most areas, the county hospitals provide tons of free care, and in many cases, the care is actually better than private institutes, especially for things like trauma.

I never said it was free--that hospitals and doctors and drug companies shouldn't be paid for their services. The fact remains that these services are necessary for the people who need them--and everybody needs them. The reason HMO's ever became popular in the first place is that the insurance companies came to realize that it was cheaper to keep the population healthy than it was to pay for rehabilitative care and preventable emergencies. If the people cramming the emergency rooms for their basic care were covered and could get that care from a doctor, then the Emergency Room could go back to treating emergencies. My question becomes this then, and we've all heard it before: if you don't want the government handling insurance, how do you plan to make sure that everyone has access to preventative healthcare? (or would you rather have to fork out $700 each time an indigent shows up at the ER with the flu that's turned into pneumonia? 'cause basically that's what you have to do now)

to quote ted kennedy, HMO's solve the access problem for healthcare. OOps, I guess he was wrong.....again. We need to deregulate medicine, regulate disaster health care policies with a high deductible, and get people funding medical health care savings accounts. Hopefully when your boss no longer has to pay for your healthcare he can afford to pay you more. Hopefully when you make your own decisions on healthcare you will save the entire system money.

[MJZiggy]

That's a big hopefully. You really think when the giant companies don't have to pay health insurance, they'll automatically put all that money into equally distributed pay increases? It will go onto the corporate bottom line with a few execs getting decent bonuses and the peons getting very little. And then they have to fund health savings accounts. I can see this costing low level Admin Assistants a whole lot of money that they really couldn't afford to give up.

[Scott Campbell]

You really think when the giant companies don't have to pay health insurance, they'll automatically put all that money into equally distributed pay increases?


Yeah, I do expect that to happen. Most will pay you more if you opt out of coverage now. They're not required by law to provide health insurance now. They do so to remain competitive - the same reason they pay what they do instead of paying minimum wage.

[Scott Campbell]

I can see this costing low level Admin Assistants a whole lot of money that they really couldn't afford to give up.


Healthcare is expensive. Like everything else one buys, it will cost the poor far more as a percentage of income than it will the people who earn more.

[MJZiggy]

You really think when the giant companies don't have to pay health insurance, they'll automatically put all that money into equally distributed pay increases?


Yeah, I do expect that to happen. Most will pay you more if you opt out of coverage now. They're not required by law to provide health insurance now. They do so to remain competitive - the same reason they pay what they do instead of paying minimum wage.

They will pay you more, but will they pay you the same amount that coverage would have cost them?

And yes, firms over a certain number of employees are required to offer it.

[Scott Campbell]

I stand corrected.

[bobblehead]

You really think when the giant companies don't have to pay health insurance, they'll automatically put all that money into equally distributed pay increases?


Yeah, I do expect that to happen. Most will pay you more if you opt out of coverage now. They're not required by law to provide health insurance now. They do so to remain competitive - the same reason they pay what they do instead of paying minimum wage.

They will pay you more, but will they pay you the same amount that coverage would have cost them?

And yes, firms over a certain number of employees are required to offer it.

In SOME states. Some very socialist states that are getting a very oppressive tax burden no less. And the more you reduce unemployment (ie make capital ventures profitable) the more a company will pay a good employee.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

BTW, Ty…if you are out there, did you know a guy named David Einhorn in high school?

Einhorn? that sounds suspiciously jewish. Ty would not hang with people with jewishy sounding names.

I prefer good, american names like nelson.

Ty is aware of many successful (and, when we really think about it..is there any other kind) hebes from the Miltown area. Ellen Freidman, Jon Steuer, Howie Epstein, jerry and dave zucker,

Hit The Googles on Einhorn. He helped bring Lehman (or is that Nelson?) Brothers down. One of your own from the Noth Side in 1984. I like his book.

Quit playing the poor is me anti-Semit card, It's getting old.

What do you knw about the RJC? I was told tonight they will bring Obama down later this year.

Google Einhorn? Why? I just told you i'm very aware of succesful hebes from miltown. Mr. Einhorn was investing/playing the market years before attending college. Never hurts when your parents are loaded. You do realize that half his initial 900k came from his folks?

Um, Einhorn Associates (M&A)...mom treasurer...dad prez. Both attended Cornell.

Nancy contributes to the ballet. Beautiful home in Riverhills.

AND HERE IS THE KICKER...EINHORNS (parents) CONTRIBUTORS TO DEM PARTY!!! And good ol' david is a major contributor to the dem party.

what does he know that you don't? LOL

Jews bringing down the traditional ivy wasps/crashing the party ain't a new story. Barbs at the Gate, Boesky, milken, etc.

1984: Einhorn didn't graduate in 84.

Nelson: Reference that went over your head.

Poor anti semitic: Uh, i have never discussed my religion or mentioned anything like that on this forum. You are the only person doing that...and, no one knows why.

RJC: What is there to know? Are you joining? They have a new chapter in Minny. And a new one in miltown. LOL Jewish republicans...wow, take a small minority group and then an extremely small minority of that minority.

I have no idea what you are driving at.

Are you referring to the lies they are spreading about obama taking Hagel to israel? They should check their facts, cause it only makes them look stupid. Or, do you think that because obama "surrounds" himself with a REPUBLICAN SENATOR whose voting record on israel is "abysmal record on Israel" is going to hurt the DEMOCRATIC nominee.

Bit surreal for my taste.

P.S. Polls indicate jews voting for obama at 2 to 1 ratio over McCain. But, i guess the RJC needs to cling to anything they can when comparing it to the 75% support kerry received.

P.P.S. the njdc says obama has an outstanding voting record on israel. the jerusalem post editorial "is not bad for israel."

[mraynrand]

P.P.S. the njdc says obama has an outstanding voting record on israel. the jerusalem post editorial "is not bad for israel."

That's good stuff

[HowardRoark]

Three years ago......times have changed.

[mraynrand]

Seven years ago......times have changed.

!