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motife
07-24-2008, 05:29 PM
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/sports/297525

Packers by position: A battle at left guard
By JASON WILDE
608-252-6176
jwilde@madison.com
GREEN BAY — While Brett Favre supporters and Ted Thompson defenders can debate until the cows come home whether Thompson blew it in 2005 when he chose not to re-sign Pro Bowl guards Marco Rivera and Mike Wahle, the fact is if Daryn Colledge and Jason Spitz had played better than they have in their first two years as starters, the topic would've gone away a long time ago.

Instead, when Favre, the Green Bay Packers' semi-retired quarterback, was citing examples of why he doesn't trust Thompson as the general manager, Rivera and Wahle's names popped up yet again, even though Rivera ceremonially retired as a Packer earlier this week following two seasons in Dallas marred by back problems and Wahle is now in Seattle after being cut by Carolina during the offseason.

Colledge's inconsistent play has been perhaps the biggest reason for the guard issue still having life, and despite his 30 starts his first two NFL seasons, he faces a major training camp battle with second-year man Allen Barbre for the starting left guard spot — the only full-fledged starting competition on the offensive side of the ball when camp opens Monday.

"That's fair to say," said offensive coordinator Joe Philbin, the team's former offensive line coach. "It's going to be good. Both those guys have made a lot of strides, we think. One of the things about Daryn that we probably take for granted (is), he's got a lot of versatility, he's a smart guy, he doesn't panic. He's been inconsistent, sure but he's done some good things. He's improved.

"Obviously Allen Barbre's a different player now. He's got a chance to adjust to the pro game, so to speak. He's had a good session in the strength and conditioning area, and he's got some natural skills that'll help him. It'll be fun. We're excited about watching that."

Barbre's advancement is the reason for that excitement. A left tackle at Division II Missouri Southern State, he was inactive for nine of 16 regular-season games as a rookie, seeing only spot action against Minnesota on Nov. 11 (two series after right tackle Mark Tauscher's ankle injury) and the second half against Detroit in the meaningless Dec. 30 regular-season finale.

"I love him," offensive line coach James Campen said of Barbre. "I wouldn't be worried about (him) at all. He's a very gifted athlete and he's done a very good job picking up the mental side of it. He's seeing a lot of things he didn't see in Division II football — the speed of the guys, they're bigger, faster. He's done a very good job this offseason."

To his credit, Colledge has, despite his up-and-down play overall, answered the bell every time his starting position has been challenged the past two years.

"He's responded to every challenge he's had, absolutely," Campen said. "And we expect him to do the same in camp."

At the other guard spot, while he's certainly not assured a starting job, Spitz solidified himself somewhat toward the end of last season, Philbin said. After having his job security threatened like Colledge, Spitz responded, and Philbin admitted the staff might've been a little too critical of Spitz upon further review.

"After we watched the film from last year, we thought Jason Spitz played some pretty good football," Philbin said. "Was he perfect? No, but he played solid football for us."

That same postseason film review showed a dip in center Scott Wells' effectiveness, something Campen chalked up to perhaps expecting the undersized Wells (6-foot-2, 303 pounds) to do too much without help against big men inside.

"Scott played solid, (but) probably not as well as he would like," Philbin said. "We expect him to play better this year. He's our center — we definitely expect him to play better."

At tackle, old pros Chad Clifton and Tauscher are back for their ninth NFL seasons, and despite their advancing age, the Packers don't feel either one is in decline. Clifton's balky knees kept him out of most of the offseason practice sessions, while Tauscher took virtually every snap.

"I hope not soon," Philbin responded when asked if he saw either player reaching the end of the line. "Both those guys, you have to be smart with them. I don't even waste any of my day thinking about what (Clifton's) schedule is. I don't worry about it. I'm sure he'll do what he needs to to get ready, and when the time is right, he'll be out there."

Asked whether Tauscher, who shut down Seattle's Patrick Kerney in the playoffs last year, might be on the verge of slipping, Campen replied, "No. He's had a great offseason, probably his best offseason yet. What is he, 31? He understands it's going to take more work, more effort (at that age). Tausch is Tausch. He's a darn good football player."

The concern, though, is that no one behind either tackle is truly proven. Orrin Thompson, Tony Moll and rookie Breno Giacomini are all candidates for the third tackle job, but Philbin said Colledge would get the call if something happened to Clifton.

Nonetheless, Philbin said the overall depth on the line is "better than it's been."

"I don't know if it's the best it's been since I've been here, but it's the best it's been the last three years," Philbin said. "I think we have better competition, better overall talent."

boiga
07-24-2008, 05:43 PM
Sigh... articles like this really annoy me.

No where does it mention that the Packers had the statistically best pass defense in the league last year, which was even more amazing considering how pass heavy we were to start the season. These guys gave Brett some of the best protection he's ever had.

Also, no where does it mention the shift to the zone blocking scheme. Who are the run blocking studs and duds in our OL? Sure Barbre's strong, but does Colledge have an edge with the ZBS technique?

Our OL was top notch with the pass and craptastic with the run last year, but the article doesn't mention either.

Gunakor
07-24-2008, 06:16 PM
Our OL was top notch with the pass and craptastic with the run last year, but the article doesn't mention either.


Neither of your assumptions are very accurate. As those who would worship at Lord Favre's feet would tell you, it was Favre's pocket awareness and quick release that made the OL's pass protection look so good. And as I try to point out to everyone who complains about our rush blocking, it got a helluva lot better twoards the end of the year. The NFCC aside, those guys were getting the job done for the last 2 months of the season.

RG was second in yards rushing during the second half of the season, trailing only LaDanian Tomlinson, while maintaining a 5 yard per carry average. He rushed for over 200 yards against the Seattle Seahawks defense... nobody else was even close to that. I looked it up out of curiosity, and the next highest rusher against the Seahawks was Edgerrin James with 128 in week 2.

Somebody has to open up a hole for a back to get those kind of numbers... well, unless your name is Barry Sanders. RG is a good back, but he's no Sanders. He didn't do all of that on his own.

boiga
07-24-2008, 06:34 PM
Well, Football Outsiders has our OL as #1 in pass blocking last year, but #26 in run blocking.

Sure, Brett had a lot to do with holding down our number of sacks, but he certainly doesn't get all the credit. Frankly, the loss of Wahle and Rivera didn't damage our pass protection in the least. You could even see the quality of our O-line against the a strong pass rush against the giants. Romo and Brady were being killed out there while our line kept Osi and Strahan in check... although admittedly we did keep a couple extra blockers in that game.

And while I agree that the run blocking did improve over the course of the year, it was embarrassing in that giants game. Grant had absolutely no space to run.

No matter which way you look at it, our pass protection was decent last year but there is still much room for improvement opening holes in the run.

Rastak
07-24-2008, 06:39 PM
Our OL was top notch with the pass and craptastic with the run last year, but the article doesn't mention either.


Neither of your assumptions are very accurate. As those who would worship at Lord Favre's feet would tell you, it was Favre's pocket awareness and quick release that made the OL's pass protection look so good. And as I try to point out to everyone who complains about our rush blocking, it got a helluva lot better twoards the end of the year. The NFCC aside, those guys were getting the job done for the last 2 months of the season.

RG was second in yards rushing during the second half of the season, trailing only LaDanian Tomlinson, while maintaining a 5 yard per carry average. He rushed for over 200 yards against the Seattle Seahawks defense... nobody else was even close to that. I looked it up out of curiosity, and the next highest rusher against the Seahawks was Edgerrin James with 128 in week 2.

Somebody has to open up a hole for a back to get those kind of numbers... well, unless your name is Barry Sanders. RG is a good back, but he's no Sanders. He didn't do all of that on his own.


It's true, his quick release did help a great deal and has the last few years.

Runblocking and pass blocking are two different animals as I'm sure you know. I thought the Packers run game was quite good the second half of last year. Teams were afraid of the Packers air game and definately didn't scheme to stop the run. That having been said, it's a credit to McCarthy and staff to exploit this to great effect.

motife
07-24-2008, 07:19 PM
most of Grant's big runs came in the spread offense. I doubt he would have gotten those numbers in a "must run" game, like Chicago or against the Giants.

The jury is still out on the Packer's run game.

sheepshead
07-24-2008, 07:25 PM
Our OL was top notch with the pass and craptastic with the run last year, but the article doesn't mention either.


Neither of your assumptions are very accurate. As those who would worship at Lord Favre's feet would tell you, it was Favre's pocket awareness and quick release that made the OL's pass protection look so good. And as I try to point out to everyone who complains about our rush blocking, it got a helluva lot better twoards the end of the year. The NFCC aside, those guys were getting the job done for the last 2 months of the season.

RG was second in yards rushing during the second half of the season, trailing only LaDanian Tomlinson, while maintaining a 5 yard per carry average. He rushed for over 200 yards against the Seattle Seahawks defense... nobody else was even close to that. I looked it up out of curiosity, and the next highest rusher against the Seahawks was Edgerrin James with 128 in week 2.

Somebody has to open up a hole for a back to get those kind of numbers... well, unless your name is Barry Sanders. RG is a good back, but he's no Sanders. He didn't do all of that on his own.


It's true, his quick release did help a great deal and has the last few years.

Runblocking and pass blocking are two different animals as I'm sure you know. I thought the Packers run game was quite good the second half of last year. Teams were afraid of the Packers air game and definately didn't scheme to stop the run. That having been said, it's a credit to McCarthy and staff to exploit this to great effect.

Theres no way Favres footwork can make an OL the top rated in football give me a break. Im going to email wilde to see if he watches game film. I know its impossible to properly judge an OL by watching TV.

All he is really saying is theres a lack of depth which, with free agency, you can say about any team at any position.

Rastak
07-24-2008, 07:35 PM
Our OL was top notch with the pass and craptastic with the run last year, but the article doesn't mention either.


Neither of your assumptions are very accurate. As those who would worship at Lord Favre's feet would tell you, it was Favre's pocket awareness and quick release that made the OL's pass protection look so good. And as I try to point out to everyone who complains about our rush blocking, it got a helluva lot better twoards the end of the year. The NFCC aside, those guys were getting the job done for the last 2 months of the season.

RG was second in yards rushing during the second half of the season, trailing only LaDanian Tomlinson, while maintaining a 5 yard per carry average. He rushed for over 200 yards against the Seattle Seahawks defense... nobody else was even close to that. I looked it up out of curiosity, and the next highest rusher against the Seahawks was Edgerrin James with 128 in week 2.

Somebody has to open up a hole for a back to get those kind of numbers... well, unless your name is Barry Sanders. RG is a good back, but he's no Sanders. He didn't do all of that on his own.


It's true, his quick release did help a great deal and has the last few years.

Runblocking and pass blocking are two different animals as I'm sure you know. I thought the Packers run game was quite good the second half of last year. Teams were afraid of the Packers air game and definately didn't scheme to stop the run. That having been said, it's a credit to McCarthy and staff to exploit this to great effect.

Theres no way Favres footwork can make an OL the top rated in football give me a break. Im going to email wilde to see if he watches game film. I know its impossible to properly judge an OL by watching TV.

All he is really saying is theres a lack of depth which, with free agency, you can say about any team at any position.


No shit, there's recievers and an offensive gameplan. And a quick release. I'm guessing none of that is relevent to your grand football wisdom?

Gunakor
07-24-2008, 07:38 PM
Well, Football Outsiders has our OL as #1 in pass blocking last year, but #26 in run blocking.


Not trying to be mean here, but do you trust Football Outsiders for all of your info or do you watch the games for yourself? I live in the market, so I haven't missed a game in 15 years. I can tell you from watching every game last season that thier info is misleading. Again, RG was second in the NFL in total yardage for the last 2 months of the season and had a 5.1 ypc avg. That doesn't come across at all when you say #26 in run blocking.


Sure, Brett had a lot to do with holding down our number of sacks, but he certainly doesn't get all the credit. Frankly, the loss of Wahle and Rivera didn't damage our pass protection in the least.

That was 90% Favre. O'Dwyer and Whittaker didn't help much, and neither did the rookies who came after them. Favre doesn't get sacked because Favre gets the ball out of his hand quickly. When he doesn't get the ball out of his hand quickly - see Dallas - he gets his ass handed to him.

sheepshead
07-24-2008, 07:41 PM
Well, Football Outsiders has our OL as #1 in pass blocking last year, but #26 in run blocking.


Not trying to be mean here, but do you trust Football Outsiders for all of your info or do you watch the games for yourself? I live in the market, so I haven't missed a game in 15 years. I can tell you from watching every game last season that thier info is misleading. Again, RG was second in the NFL in total yardage for the last 2 months of the season and had a 5.1 ypc avg. That doesn't come across at all when you say #26 in run blocking.


Sure, Brett had a lot to do with holding down our number of sacks, but he certainly doesn't get all the credit. Frankly, the loss of Wahle and Rivera didn't damage our pass protection in the least.

That was 90% Favre. O'Dwyer and Whittaker didn't help much, and neither did the rookies who came after them. Favre doesn't get sacked because Favre gets the ball out of his hand quickly. When he doesn't get the ball out of his hand quickly - see Dallas - he gets his ass handed to him.

You cant even see the OL 75% of the time on TV, FO takes a lot of factors in consideration, but hell just say theyre half right?? Still pretty damn good..

boiga
07-24-2008, 07:45 PM
@ Gunakor, FO are slightly better than traditional stats. My major point is that Ryan Grant made the ZBS system work, and not the other way around. The run blocking improved, but that is the biggest area they need to work on.

Also, I really think you are underestimating Clifton and Tauch. Those guys have held elite DE's to nothing. Sure Favre was uncanny about stepping up at just the right time, but in no way was he endangered by his protection... except by Colledge a couple of times...

Gunakor
07-24-2008, 07:54 PM
Well, Football Outsiders has our OL as #1 in pass blocking last year, but #26 in run blocking.


Not trying to be mean here, but do you trust Football Outsiders for all of your info or do you watch the games for yourself? I live in the market, so I haven't missed a game in 15 years. I can tell you from watching every game last season that thier info is misleading. Again, RG was second in the NFL in total yardage for the last 2 months of the season and had a 5.1 ypc avg. That doesn't come across at all when you say #26 in run blocking.


Sure, Brett had a lot to do with holding down our number of sacks, but he certainly doesn't get all the credit. Frankly, the loss of Wahle and Rivera didn't damage our pass protection in the least.

That was 90% Favre. O'Dwyer and Whittaker didn't help much, and neither did the rookies who came after them. Favre doesn't get sacked because Favre gets the ball out of his hand quickly. When he doesn't get the ball out of his hand quickly - see Dallas - he gets his ass handed to him.

You cant even see the OL 75% of the time on TV, FO takes a lot of factors in consideration, but hell just say theyre half right?? Still pretty damn good..

You can see them as long as you need to. That is to say, until the ball is released or the RB gets into the secondary. You can see on TV whether they are doing thier job. You can see when a guy gets beat to a bloody pulp off the snap and Favre has to fire a quick bullet to Driver to save his own ass.

I'm not saying they are poor, just that thier #1 ranking has as much to do with Favre's experience as the OL's blocking. They'll be more like #10 this year. Still not horrible, but definitely not #1. And they'll be better than #26 in run blocking. Not #1, of course, but probably somewhere middle of the pack.

Noodle
07-25-2008, 04:15 PM
I think you seriously undervalue the quality of pass pro and gameplan when you say that the low sack number is "90 %" Favre's doing. No way.

I too watch all the games, and the OL consistently created time for Favre to throw last year. You hardly ever see some DE or OLB come in clean against Favre, and that's because of the solid play of Cliffy fand Tausch.

M3 also contributed with his emphasis on throwing on 3 and 5 step drops.

I agree that Favre was amazing at sensing trouble and moving a little left or right to buy time, but the vast majority of the time I thought the pass pro looked pretty darn good.

Gunakor
07-25-2008, 04:37 PM
I think you seriously undervalue the quality of pass pro and gameplan when you say that the low sack number is "90 %" Favre's doing. No way.

I too watch all the games, and the OL consistently created time for Favre to throw last year. You hardly ever see some DE or OLB come in clean against Favre, and that's because of the solid play of Cliffy fand Tausch.

M3 also contributed with his emphasis on throwing on 3 and 5 step drops.

I agree that Favre was amazing at sensing trouble and moving a little left or right to buy time, but the vast majority of the time I thought the pass pro looked pretty darn good.


You must not have been watching the DT's pushing our undersized guards and center backwards. I am not arguing that the end rushers haven't been for the most part ineffective against Tauch and Cliffy, but those two players can't stop the entire DL on thier own. They will handle DE's, but the DT's were having thier way with our guards.