Jags installs cut blocking....

[RashanGary]

From packersnews.com

The Packers’ offensive linemen have been practicing a technique that will be a more prominent and possibly controversial part of their repertoire in their new zone-blocking scheme: cut blocking.

The zone-blocking offense that coordinator Jeff Jagodzinski learned from former Denver and Atlanta offensive line coach Alex Gibbs emphasizes cut blocking on the back side of running plays. It’s occasionally provoked public complaints by opponents because of the injury risk to defensive linemen, but it’s a staple of the scheme that Jagodzinski says he will deploy in the same manner as Gibbs.

“Yeah, we’re going to cut block,” Jagodzinski said. “Theyâ� �‚¬â„¢re going to try to tackle us, aren’t they?”

Gibbs’ zone-blocking scheme is based on the running back making only one decisive cut. The cut blocking not only slows the pursuit of back-side tacklers, it more importantly clears the running back’s vision if the front side of the play is too clogged and he needs to make that one cut a sharp move against the grain.

“The line’s job is to make the back’s job so easy that he’ll never miss the cut,” Jagodzinski said.

The Packers have practiced cut blocking several times this offseason in their minicamps and organized team activities, something they rarely, if ever, did under their last three coaching staffs. The offensive linemen practice it by running and diving at low-placed blocking dummies.

The cut blocking has caused controversy the past several years when defensive linemen have sustained knee and leg injuries against Denver and Atlanta, the two teams that ran Gibbs’ system before the Packers and Houston joined the group this offseason.

In December, for instance, Carolina defensive ends Julius Peppers and Mike Rucker each sustained a sprained ankle when cut blocked by Atlanta linemen. In 2004, Cincinnati defensive tackle Tony Williams and Jacksonville defensive end Paul Spicer sustained season-ending leg injuries on back-side cut blocks by Denver linemen.

Cut blocking is legal under NFL rules if the defensive player isn’t engaged with another blocker.

“As long as I don’t do it from the back — if I’m in front of him I can do it,” said Junius Coston, the Packers’ possible starter at right guard.

The only live cut blocking the Packers will do is in games, because even in training camp, teams don’t cut block their own players. With the blocking dummies, they can simulate the technique of a cut block, but they can’t simulate hitting a moving target.

“Keep your feet moving,” right tackle Mark Tauscher said in describing how to cut block. “A lot of times what happens is you’ll dive, and when you’re diving, you’re not coming through it, and that’s when you can look foolish. Running your feet through and ripping your arms, that’s what they want; that’s what you try to do.”

[RashanGary]

There are going to be some pissed off DLmen when they start getting their knees cut. It's one of those things that as a defender, you have to be prepared for. I know they're going to get pissed, but maybe they should just fall over instead of trying to run through it.

[BlueBrewer]

I really don't like the idea of cut blocking, but I am going to have to get used to it I guess. If they do it the right way I guuess it isn't dirty, but there is a fine line between the right way and the dirty way. I would hate for the Packers to get the repuation of being cheap.

[PCastleberg]

I saw that article to NickCollins,

Unfortunately (IMO) that is the "nasty" part of our new blocking scheme, I have always hated it and the fact that teams don't even practice it against live personell should tell you all you need to know.

I have ripped on the Bronco's OL in the past and now ours will have to deal with it trying to make sure they cut block cleanly and within the rules.

PC

[CaptainKickass]

Until the NFL acts.......and makes cut blocking illegal, I see no problem.

If they do make it illegal - I'll still support the pack. Until then - I still support the pack and I hope that Jagz can teach, install, and execute the scheme better that anyone else before him.

[Row 67]

Its legal. And I'll bet statistically, that cut blocking doesn't result in any more injuries than any other type of blocking.

Those same crybaby defensive lineman that are complaining they could get hurt by being cut blocked would drive a QB into the ground as hard as they could if they knew they could get away with it. After all, a d-lineman's motto pretty much is to bash the other teams QB out of the game. Funny how the tune changes when someones trying to take you out.

[K-town]

Its legal. And I'll bet statistically, that cut blocking doesn't result in any more injuries than any other type of blocking.

Those same crybaby defensive lineman that are complaining they could get hurt by being cut blocked would drive a QB into the ground as hard as they could if they knew they could get away with it. After all, a d-lineman's motto pretty much is to bash the other teams QB out of the game. Funny how the tune changes when someones trying to take you out.

Just ask Carson Palmer about the hit by Kimo Van Oelhofen (? spelling ?)
in the Pittsburgh-Cinci playoff game. Or how Trent Green's 1999 campaign ended when Rodney Harrison submarined him in a meaningless pre-season game (thus paving the way for Kurt Warner).

[Rastak]

Its legal. And I'll bet statistically, that cut blocking doesn't result in any more injuries than any other type of blocking.



So explain why it's never done live aginst their own team?


Just becasue they don't need the extra practice?

[The Leaper]

Its legal. And I'll bet statistically, that cut blocking doesn't result in any more injuries than any other type of blocking.

I agree. I haven't seen any statistical evidence that proves defensive players get injured more often...or even more seriously...when playing against cut blocking schemes.

It is usually the DL that are the first ones looking to take the head off a QB on a turnover. They say that the QB needs to keep his head on a swivel. Well...the same applies to them. If the defender doesn't want to get injured, then he needs to keep his eyes open in front of him and when someone goes down to cut block him, he needs to fall forward and take the weight off his feet.

I see no reason to take LEGAL cut blocks out of the game. Illegal blocks made against linemen who are engaged, or from behind, should be penalized severely.

[CaptainKickass]

What are the penalties for illegal cut blocking during a game?


Are they steep?

[Rastak]

Its legal. And I'll bet statistically, that cut blocking doesn't result in any more injuries than any other type of blocking.

I agree. I haven't seen any statistical evidence that proves defensive players get injured more often...or even more seriously...when playing against cut blocking schemes.

It is usually the DL that are the first ones looking to take the head off a QB on a turnover. They say that the QB needs to keep his head on a swivel. Well...the same applies to them. If the defender doesn't want to get injured, then he needs to keep his eyes open in front of him and when someone goes down to cut block him, he needs to fall forward and take the weight off his feet.

I see no reason to take LEGAL cut blocks out of the game. Illegal blocks made against linemen who are engaged, or from behind, should be penalized severely.


Leaper, I'll ask you then, why does the team not do it in practice in live drills if it's no more dangerous than any other block?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

For a moment i thought the Jaguars were instlling the cut block.

[BallHawk]

RASTAK WROTE: So explain why it's never done live aginst their own team?.


Because they're saving it for Erasmus James.

[GoPackGo]

RASTAK WROTE: So explain why it's never done live aginst their own team?.


Because they're saving it for Erasmus James.
and anybody else in purple :lol:

[Rastak]

RASTAK WROTE: So explain why it's never done live aginst their own team?.


Because they're saving it for Erasmus James.
and anybody else in purple :lol:


Exactly, it's meant to kill.............anyone argueing otherwise is denying the facts.

[The Leaper]

Leaper, I'll ask you then, why does the team not do it in practice in live drills if it's no more dangerous than any other block?

I see no reason why you shouldn't execute it against your own team. However, you need to practice it full speed against moving targets...and that is difficult to do on a consistent basis even in a controlled setting.

Also, the players first have to learn how to throw the block correctly. If they throw it incorrectly, the risk of injury goes up dramatically. Since this is practice...it makes sense to assume incorrect blocks will be numerous. So why raise the risk of injury in a non-game situation?

[The Leaper]

Exactly, it's meant to kill.............anyone argueing otherwise is denying the facts.

The same way blindsiding a QB at full speed is meant to kill.

Football is violent. Expect injuries.

[woodbuck27]

Many Packer fans are in favor of the Packer players playing tougher and to strike fear in the opponent, as one way to gain more respect around the league.

Well the decision has been made to adopt the ZBS and with that comes the LEGAL Cut Block. Them's. . the facts Luther.

Welcome to tougher Packer Football. We have to ask ourselves which way is it going to be? The cut block . . . is now a fact of life in OUR game, as long as OUR player doesn't do so illegally ie roll up on the opponent ankle (lower leg) etc.

Is the cut block going to make us popular amongst the teams we face? NO !Do I believe we will attempt to use the cut block legally . . . YES !

[KYPack]

RASTAK WROTE: So explain why it's never done live aginst their own team?.


Because they're saving it for Erasmus James.
and anybody else in purple :lol:


Exactly, it's meant to kill.............anyone argueing otherwise is denying the facts.

Only on Vikings, Slick.

The cut will be intitiated against all purple uni's.

Let the evil games begin!

[Noodle]

Packerrats covered this in some earlier threads -- packernews.com needs to get it in gear a little bit.

I'll admit that I'm not all that thrilled about us embracing the cut block. I like my nasty straight up, not diving at a guy's knees or ankles, and I always thought Denver's line was punk for doing cutting the way they did it.

I understand that some form of cut blocking is a part of every OL system, the main diff being that the ZBS emphasizes it a whole lot more. I also understand that a cut block can be done legally and without undue risk to the DL or LB.

But, as Tauscher's quote indicates, it's real easy to miss and crash in to a guy from the side or behind. And these are huge friggin guys crashing into other huge friggin' guys who'll have a hard time getting out of the friggin' way.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. I felt that way about Sapp's hit on Cliffy. I'm not going to change now. And I think Jags's attitude about it sucks.

[pbmax]

From packersnews.com

... Cut blocking is legal under NFL rules if the defensive player isn’t engaged with another blocker....
I believe this is incomplete. It is legal in the manner described as long as it occurs within 3 yards of the Line Of Scrimmage.

Maybe ND72 can comment on this.

[Partial]

Its funny how everyone changes their tune when something is legal but dirty.

Remember when the Broncos did that to us? How'd you feel then? You all thought it was cheap and dirty.

More recently, what about Warren Sapps' hit on Cliffy. Now THAT was Dirty. We'd all agree on it. At the time, it was also legal. Lets keep things in perspective.

What we'll be doing is dirty. Right or wrong, its dirty. I foresee it either becoming illegal or popular in the league over the next few years. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Rastak]

RASTAK WROTE: So explain why it's never done live aginst their own team?.


Because they're saving it for Erasmus James.
and anybody else in purple :lol:


Exactly, it's meant to kill.............anyone argueing otherwise is denying the facts.

Only on Vikings, Slick.

The cut will be intitiated against all purple uni's.

Let the evil games begin!


Just remember the retaliation is usually taken out on the guy who handles the ball the most.... :smile:

[Noodle]

From packersnews.com

... Cut blocking is legal under NFL rules if the defensive player isn’t engaged with another blocker....
I believe this is incomplete. It is legal in the manner described as long as it occurs within 3 yards of the Line Of Scrimmage.

Maybe ND72 can comment on this.

Polaris and KY also seem to know their way around an offensive line. I'd be interested in their views on this.

[Rastak]

From packersnews.com

... Cut blocking is legal under NFL rules if the defensive player isn’t engaged with another blocker....
I believe this is incomplete. It is legal in the manner described as long as it occurs within 3 yards of the Line Of Scrimmage.

Maybe ND72 can comment on this.

Polaris and KY also seem to know their way around an offensive line. I'd be interested in their views on this.


Yea, that's true...I'm mainly kidding but it does surprise me that it's not done against people in practice, If it's not dangerous they would practice it against their own guys like any other block. It'll be interesting to see how they run in preseason.


Hey ND72?

[BallHawk]

Some people consider it dirty, and if it is done the wrong way it is dirty. But look at the success it had with Denver and Atlanta.

I'd rather be hated and good, than not hated and bad. When the opposing d-line looks at the schedule I want them to say "sh*t we're playing the packers, they block like animals.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Yep, you'll be able to hear the snap of ACL's in Lambeau this fall.

I REALLY, REALLY wish the rules were changed in the NFL to protect defensive linemen. You shouldn't be able to block below the waist, from behind, anywhere on the field. F*ck this "ok to maim guys within 3 yards of line of scrimmage" crap.

The NFL has two priorities:
1) Protect the QBs
2) Keep scoring high

[Patler]

Yep, you'll be able to hear the snap of ACL's in Lambeau this fall.

I REALLY, REALLY wish the rules were changed in the NFL to protect defensive linemen. You shouldn't be able to block below the waist, from behind, anywhere on the field. F*ck this "ok to maim guys within 3 yards of line of scrimmage" crap.

The NFL has two priorities:
1) Protect the QBs
2) Keep scoring high

Until such time as defensive players are prohibited from drilling receivers and QBs in the back at full speed, or aren't allowed to make tackles from the ground, I'm not going to get too concerned over a block they don't see coming.

[pbmax]

Paul Zimmerman will write this again this year, guaranteed. But as a former O-Lineman himself (college and semi-pro) he says the rule should read, no cut blocking unless you are engaged with the defender one on one, all over the field.

The idea being that the block itself is legal, but that diving towards the player wouldn't be allowed.

Interesting that lineman got hurt last year playing Denver when it supposed to be the backside pursuit (LB) that gets cut. Perhaps we haven't seen all there is or how it shakes out depending on the defensive front.

[Spaulding]

Was trolling JSOnline and actually saw some good posts for once. Credit goes to VikingQuest2006 and Ezra over there.

Basically they provide nice explanation of cut blocking versus chop blocking and a full example of how it's implemented.

Cut blocking is when you are in the free blocking zone at the snap (4 ft. to either side of the center and three feet deep either way from the ball in high school and even smaller zone in college and pros) and an offensive lineman engages w/ you below the knees w/o anybody else making contact w/ you. This is the technique the Broncos and Falcons use. It does upset people but it is 100% legal. Chop blocking is when a DL is already engaged w/ a blocker and another blocker comes in low and takes out his legs. This is illegal in HS, college and the pros.

The post goes on to state the poster played DL in college and currently officials HS and College games and still supports cut blocking due to the team aspect and relative safety as long as not involving chop blocking.

The second poster also played DL in college and coaches at HS level and had the following to say with a very nice example:

Being the old-school OL guy, I wasn't really that keen on the idea of coaching it. I thought it was kind of a wussy way of playing football. Just line 'em up and run 'em over.

As a DL in college, I played against some zone schemes. I was more annoyed by cut blocks than worried about injuries. Contact from cut blocks is made within the first step-and-a-half, so there isn't that much force or momentum being generated by the OL yet. If you (as a DL) stay low and use your hands (like you are supposed to), you're not going to get hurt from a cut block. But you're also not going to get much push or penetration at the LOS.

Basicially, the OL is getting in your way, and even if you keep your feet, there isn't much you can do except go around the OL - thus creating the running lanes. Once that initial surge off of the LOS has occurred, the OL can no longer cut block. Also, if a defensive player is outside of the "tackle box" (see Viking Quest's post), an OL cannot cut block him (which means a LB can't get cut if he is lined up at a normal LB depth).

Here is an example:

Let's say I am a Center and we are running a sweep to the right side. I have a NT lined up on my right shoulder. In zone blocking, the RG is stepping right because that is where the ball is going. Unless that NT loops away from the play, he is going to cross my face and be my guy to block.

This is a critical block becuase if he penetrates, he could disrupt the timing of the play and the angle of the ball carrier. Trying to reach block the NT is a pretty difficult block for me to make. Thank goodness for the cut block!! :)

As I snap the ball, I take a hard jab step with my right (playside) foot. Sure enough - the NT is trying to penetrate. He's crossing my face, so he's my guy. As I take my next step, I make myself big, stay low, and let that poor sucker trip over me.

What a lot of people don't realize, if this same play were being run with a traditional man-blocking scheme, the Center may be called upon to cut block anyway.

The play is still a sweep right, and the LG is pulling. The NT can disrupt the play with penetration - getting in the pulling guard's way - so some combination of the RG and C needs to stop him. The RG and C might combo-block the NT - that is, double-team him at first, then one would slide off and go to the next level (LB). But if circumstances dictate that the RG cannot combo block on the NT (because he is covered by a DL, because he is supposed to pull, because the defense shifted right before the snap), it leaves the C to have to take the NT himself. In that case, the C would cut the NT.

Truth be told, if you look at the Packers from years past, you will see cut blocking too. The main difference between zone blocking and man blocking isn't really the cut block - although, the cut block is used more in a zone scheme.

In man blocking, it's "you get that guy, you get that guy, and I'll get this guy".

In zone blocking, it's "let's all go to our assigned areas and block the first person that crosses our face."

So when a DL is trying to penetrate upon the snap, after that first step toward the play, the OL knows if the DL is going to cross his face. So by the second step, he is cutting off his penetration with a cut block. If no one is crossing his face by that second step, the OL will have to take on the defensive player with a "normal" block, because he's beyond his "initial surge".

It's not that the zone blocking scheme was created specifically to use this "dirty" technique. To me, zone blocking is a lot easier to teach and easier to grasp than man blocking. But inherant to the principles of zone blocking - that is, taking a jab-step toward the play and blocking the first man to cross your face - is it is going to put you in a position to have to use the cut block as the blocking technique.

In summary, I guess, rather than emphasizing "driving the other guy out of the hole", the cut block portion of zone blocking kind of emphasizes "keep the guy from getting to the hole". But cut blocks are only a part of the zone scheme - just like they are part of a man scheme. The zone scheme is easy to teach, and there is less potential confusion about blocking assignments in a zone scheme.

That said, I have grown to appreciate zone blocking as a blocking. I still think cut blocking is kind of wussy because it goes against the whole gladiator imagery of being a lineman. The testosterone in me still makes me favor going toe-to-toe. But it's not this cheap-shot, injury-causing, dirty, bull$hit scheme like some people seem to think it is. And most importantly, IT WORKS. Just ask Denver and Atlanta.

Once upon a time, the forward pass was probably frowned upon as some kind of dopey gimmick - a wussy alternative to the running game. But once other teams saw how effective the passing game could be, gimmick or not, other teams started doing the same thing.

The NFL is one big copycat league anyway. Everyone went from 4-3 to 3-4... then back to 4-3... and now it is going back to 3-4. How many teams jumped on the run-and-shoot bandwagon? How about the 46 Bears defense? Two TE, single back offense?

As long as they are effective, these "gimmicks" or "trends" or "flavors of the day" will exist in the NFL. The forward pass is still around. Run-and-shoot teams, not so much. My guess is zone blocking isn't going away, and will fal somewhere in between.

[CyclonePackFan]

Was trolling JSOnline and actually saw some good posts for once. Credit goes to VikingQuest2006 and Ezra over there.

Basically they provide nice explanation of cut blocking versus chop blocking and a full example of how it's implemented.

Cut blocking is when you are in the free blocking zone at the snap (4 ft. to either side of the center and three feet deep either way from the ball in high school and even smaller zone in college and pros) and an offensive lineman engages w/ you below the knees w/o anybody else making contact w/ you. This is the technique the Broncos and Falcons use. It does upset people but it is 100% legal. Chop blocking is when a DL is already engaged w/ a blocker and another blocker comes in low and takes out his legs. This is illegal in HS, college and the pros.

The post goes on to state the poster played DL in college and currently officials HS and College games and still supports cut blocking due to the team aspect and relative safety as long as not involving chop blocking.

The second poster also played DL in college and coaches at HS level and had the following to say with a very nice example:

Being the old-school OL guy, I wasn't really that keen on the idea of coaching it. I thought it was kind of a wussy way of playing football. Just line 'em up and run 'em over.

As a DL in college, I played against some zone schemes. I was more annoyed by cut blocks than worried about injuries. Contact from cut blocks is made within the first step-and-a-half, so there isn't that much force or momentum being generated by the OL yet. If you (as a DL) stay low and use your hands (like you are supposed to), you're not going to get hurt from a cut block. But you're also not going to get much push or penetration at the LOS.

Basicially, the OL is getting in your way, and even if you keep your feet, there isn't much you can do except go around the OL - thus creating the running lanes. Once that initial surge off of the LOS has occurred, the OL can no longer cut block. Also, if a defensive player is outside of the "tackle box" (see Viking Quest's post), an OL cannot cut block him (which means a LB can't get cut if he is lined up at a normal LB depth).

Here is an example:

Let's say I am a Center and we are running a sweep to the right side. I have a NT lined up on my right shoulder. In zone blocking, the RG is stepping right because that is where the ball is going. Unless that NT loops away from the play, he is going to cross my face and be my guy to block.

This is a critical block becuase if he penetrates, he could disrupt the timing of the play and the angle of the ball carrier. Trying to reach block the NT is a pretty difficult block for me to make. Thank goodness for the cut block!! :)

As I snap the ball, I take a hard jab step with my right (playside) foot. Sure enough - the NT is trying to penetrate. He's crossing my face, so he's my guy. As I take my next step, I make myself big, stay low, and let that poor sucker trip over me.

What a lot of people don't realize, if this same play were being run with a traditional man-blocking scheme, the Center may be called upon to cut block anyway.

The play is still a sweep right, and the LG is pulling. The NT can disrupt the play with penetration - getting in the pulling guard's way - so some combination of the RG and C needs to stop him. The RG and C might combo-block the NT - that is, double-team him at first, then one would slide off and go to the next level (LB). But if circumstances dictate that the RG cannot combo block on the NT (because he is covered by a DL, because he is supposed to pull, because the defense shifted right before the snap), it leaves the C to have to take the NT himself. In that case, the C would cut the NT.

Truth be told, if you look at the Packers from years past, you will see cut blocking too. The main difference between zone blocking and man blocking isn't really the cut block - although, the cut block is used more in a zone scheme.

In man blocking, it's "you get that guy, you get that guy, and I'll get this guy".

In zone blocking, it's "let's all go to our assigned areas and block the first person that crosses our face."

So when a DL is trying to penetrate upon the snap, after that first step toward the play, the OL knows if the DL is going to cross his face. So by the second step, he is cutting off his penetration with a cut block. If no one is crossing his face by that second step, the OL will have to take on the defensive player with a "normal" block, because he's beyond his "initial surge".

It's not that the zone blocking scheme was created specifically to use this "dirty" technique. To me, zone blocking is a lot easier to teach and easier to grasp than man blocking. But inherant to the principles of zone blocking - that is, taking a jab-step toward the play and blocking the first man to cross your face - is it is going to put you in a position to have to use the cut block as the blocking technique.

In summary, I guess, rather than emphasizing "driving the other guy out of the hole", the cut block portion of zone blocking kind of emphasizes "keep the guy from getting to the hole". But cut blocks are only a part of the zone scheme - just like they are part of a man scheme. The zone scheme is easy to teach, and there is less potential confusion about blocking assignments in a zone scheme.

That said, I have grown to appreciate zone blocking as a blocking. I still think cut blocking is kind of wussy because it goes against the whole gladiator imagery of being a lineman. The testosterone in me still makes me favor going toe-to-toe. But it's not this cheap-shot, injury-causing, dirty, bull$hit scheme like some people seem to think it is. And most importantly, IT WORKS. Just ask Denver and Atlanta.

Once upon a time, the forward pass was probably frowned upon as some kind of dopey gimmick - a wussy alternative to the running game. But once other teams saw how effective the passing game could be, gimmick or not, other teams started doing the same thing.

The NFL is one big copycat league anyway. Everyone went from 4-3 to 3-4... then back to 4-3... and now it is going back to 3-4. How many teams jumped on the run-and-shoot bandwagon? How about the 46 Bears defense? Two TE, single back offense?

As long as they are effective, these "gimmicks" or "trends" or "flavors of the day" will exist in the NFL. The forward pass is still around. Run-and-shoot teams, not so much. My guess is zone blocking isn't going away, and will fal somewhere in between.

bojangles, I could not have summed up the issue any better.

I played OL for the better part of 13 years, from the time I was 5 until the end of my senior year of high school. For 12 of those 13 years, I played center, with the exception of my junior season where I was needed at LT. My senior season, when I was moved back to center, I utilized the cut block frequently, more often than not because of one of the scenarios presented above. I was usually matched up with a quick NT playing head up or to the strong side of the line (we ran an unbalanced look that went TE, G, C, G, T, T). As a result, a combo or chip block was in order, perhaps a scoop block by the weak side guard if the NT was to the weak side. From my perspective, on most plays I had two options if the NT was dead on or strong side. Either 1.) engage and cut if I lose him or 2.) get help from the strong guard. From a global standpoint, the better option was usually to cut the NT, leaving the SG to go for the MLB, rather than forcing him to settle for the WOLB and leaving the MLB to blow up the play.

For the record, as often as I cut, NEVER once was someone I cut injured. It seems everyone thinks that the new scheme is 'just cut the guy and you're done', when in reality, the cut block is more of a last resort, to be used when the OL senses he is going to lose his block. Also, IF a cut block is executed properly, the types of injuries DL are whining about shouldn't happen. Ideally, the OL doesn't hit the knees of the DL, the OL dives and puts his body in front of the knees of the DL and crabs away from the play, causing the DL to run into the torso of the OL, creating a road block and effectively taking the DL out of the play. As has been stated, this is completely fair game close enough to the LOS, and it happens even outside of a zone scheme.

Oh, and as for why this isn't done in practice, it's because the ribs of the OL take a beating as a result of the technique from the knees of the DL crashing into them. Granted, this is easily remedied by using a rib guard, but there's still no point in putting the OL's torso or the DL's knees through the contact in practice, and having your players falling over each other.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I have no objection to cut blocking.

I do hate blocking on the lower legs from behind. I don't think it happens all that often, but when it does, you sometimes see the defensive lineman buckle back and go down like they just got shot by a rifle. It's obviously very dangerous and cheap. It's strange that it is legal near line of scrimmage.

[Noodle]

I'm not opposed to a cut block done correctly. No hitting from the side or back, no rolling up on the player. But here's the problem -- guys are going to lunge. Tausch said as much in the article. And a lunging 320 lb man is akin to a scud. Maybe it hits in front of the legs, maybe not. But when it hits, bang! And we're going to be launching a lot of scuds this year.

One last thing -- I found an article from 2001 about cut blocking, and it features lots of quotes from our own dearly departed Larry Beightol. Seems the Packers have been cutting for years (if so, why is Tausch having to "learn" it, unless we're doing it differently than old Larry taught?).

Anyway, the article follows:


NFL Players Association Executive Director Gene Upshaw is now on record as saying he will push again for the banishment of "cut blocks" from the game after the Denver Broncos have KO'd two defenders with lower leg injuries in their most recent games.

Upshaw's opinion counts for a lot. He represents all players. He also is a Hall of Fame offensive lineman who doesn't see the necessity of cut blocks.

He might be wrong. The game is different than when Upshaw played.

"Nobody on defense lines up and plays head-on anymore," said Green Bay Packers line coach Larry Beightol. "[Bill] Parcells was the last two-gap coach in the NFL [where a defensive lineman is directly across from the offensive lineman]. These guys are shifting, moving, jumping in the gaps. If we can't cut block, we can't play football."

"You're just not going to be able to run the ball without cut blocks," said Beightol, who is the dean of NFL line coaches. "I mean, zero yards. And if you can't run the ball, it's all over for the quarterbacks. They will be fair game, even moreso than they are now."

Cut blocks are legal under NFL rules. They are below-the-knee blocks within a tackle-to-tackle zone, extending three yards on both sides of the line of scrimmage. In 1998, the NFL modified the rules to make illegal any block that strikes the defender below the knees from behind.

The illegal block that Broncos tackle Matt Lepsis delivered to Chargers defensive tackle Maa Tanuvasa on Oct. 21 broke Tanuvasa's ankle, ending his season. Lepsis was fined $15,000.

The play in which Patriots linebacker Bryan Cox suffered a broken leg on Sunday against the Broncos is a little different. It came on a pass play outside the tackle-to-tackle zone. Broncos guard Dan Neil's block is potentially a classic clipping penalty. However, Broncos coach Mike Shanahan says he has seen the play "51 times" and isn't sure there is even contact. He believes Cox broke his tibia (a small bone that will keep him out only three or four weeks) trying to jump over Neil.

While the cut block (as defined above) is currently legal, some of its variations are illegal. A blocker who starts with a legal cut block, but then rolls up on the defender, is in violation of the rules.

Cut blocks have become routine with the advent of zone-blocking schemes that are now the norm in the NFL. Coaches like Beightol and Alex Gibbs -- who is working this season on a part-time basis for health reasons -- teach cut blocks to effectively stop pursuit of a running play from backside defensive linemen.

One thing is for sure: Blocking within the interior line evokes plenty of emotions. It was no surprise that Cox, perhaps the NFL's most emotional player, has threatened to "get Neil" if they ever play on the same field again. He has softened his comments somewhat, but it is old-school to retaliate on the field.

Cox also again dressed down the NFL for not caring about the health of defensive players. The league notes that Lepsis was fined (Neil's block is being reviewed) and that the rules were changed in '98 to limit a defender's exposure.

Beightol himself is aware that players become emotional. This Sunday, his Packers play the Bucs, led by All-Pro defensive tackle Warren Sapp. A few years ago, when Beightol was the line coach in Miami, Sapp confronted him in the tunnel after the game for numerous cut blocks directed at him.

Sapp already had confronted the guard, Jeff Buckey, who delivered the cut block.

"Buckey told Sapp that if he didn't cut him, he'd probably be cut -- by me," said Beightol, who then chuckled. "Nice of Buckey to finger me, huh?"

Will the Packers cut Sapp this Sunday?

"Whatever's legal, we're doing it," Beightol said.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Cut blocks are legal under NFL rules. They are below-the-knee blocks within a tackle-to-tackle zone, extending three yards on both sides of the line of scrimmage. In 1998, the NFL modified the rules to make illegal any block that strikes the defender below the knees from behind.

Well I'll be damned! I've seen blocks from behind in NFL games more recently than 1998, and the announcers definitely said they were legal within 3 yards of line of scrimmage. Huh. Guess I can call off the protest marches.

[KYPack]

Bojangles,

Great post my man. This stuff is tough to explain and you did a helluva job with that post. You did cover one point that needs to be emphasized. A cut block in a man or conventional offense is not all that dangerous a weapon. Most cuts come very quick, right at the point of attack. An OLineman cuts the guy immediatly, usually as some kind of quick seal for quick hitting play.

The ZBS is different. The block takes place after the Olineman has 5 to 10 yards of momentum. This means the DLineman is being hit with a much stronger blow. Also, because the Oline moves "down the line", slower moving lineman can be cut both below the knees AND from behind. With the OLinmean having this increased momentum, the cut blocks become almost deadly in the ZBS.

That is one lethal combination and can end careers. I saw this first hand a couple years ago. The Broncos were playing the Bengals in Cincy two years ago. Marvin Lewis is an old DCoordinator and had a good D Scheme for Shanny the Rat. The Bengals were running interior stunts against the ZBS that were almost like offensive plays. Their lineman were taking inside techniques that were opening holes in the Broncs line. The Bengals LB's were shooting thru those gaps and stopping the Denver backs in their tracks. Late in the first half, Bengals tackle (who had been chasing down tackles all day) Tony Williams was blocked low and from behind. He was in the box, so the play was legal. It resulted in a broken leg for Williams and the normally placid Cincy fans went apeshit. I thought there was gonna a riot in the place.

Marvin Lewis went crazy claiming that the block was illegal. Williams never started again & there is bad blood btw the two teams to this day.

That is the kind of stuff that will happen here, there ain't no way to stop it. Jags is a true believer and will install the ZBS here in all it's glory

[pbmax]

Excellent find Noodle. But there are differences between what the Packers and other team have done with cuts and what the Gibbs system calls for. Beightol is arguing for the rule to stay, but he isn't running the same plays, not is he cutting the same people.

Both Cyclone Packer Fan and mrbojangels have posts that describe zone blocking as how to determine who you are going to block, regardless of pre-snap alignment. This is not what makes the Gibbs system unique.

What makes the Zone Blocking Scheme of Gibbs, Denver, Atlanta and the Gophers different is that penetrating lineman are not the only people who are getting cut. Linebackers get cut too. Gibbs scheme, on the stretch, uses typical blocks on the front side (including a double team on a DE) and cut blocks on the backside to cut off pursuit from offside LBs and DT/DE.

See the article ND72 found to explain the Gophers scheme.


Here's a great article i got on espn insider on the University of Minnesota zone blocking scheme...just some good reading for what we could possibly be seeing. Pretty similar to all the other zone idea's i know and have read...

ESPN.COM
Over the past several years, Minnesota has done a better job of consistently running the football than any other team in the country. Most college football coaches would agree that even though the Gophers have had some talented players, no staff has done more with less than Minnesota's -- particularly in the running game.

Glenn Mason, who has been named Coach of the Year in the MAC, Big Eight and Big Ten, is committed totally to the running game. Much like with the Denver Broncos, it doesn't seem to really matter who lines up at tailback for the Gophers. They all have success.

Every team in the country has some kind of zone blocking scheme, but Minnesota's looks different because of its efficiency. This is a credit to the offensive staff led by coordinator Mitch Browning. No one does it better, which is why coaches from all over the country study Minnesota every spring to see what it does differently.

When you watch the tape, though, it is not what the Gophers do that makes them unique, it is how they do it. Minnesota has made a total commitment to the running game and zone blocking. Commitment is an easy word to say, but the tape clearly proves that the Gophers' identity is formed by their ability to run the football.


What is zone blocking?
Zone blocking in the running game is when two offensive linemen work in tandem to block an area as opposed to each having a predetermined specific man to block. The concept calls for two adjacent linemen to come off in unison and hip-to-hip to attack a down defensive lineman or area. Depending on the charge of that defensive lineman, one offensive lineman will stay engaged on the defender, while the other will come off for the linebacker. The initial double-team at the point of attack provides movement and allows the offensive linemen to be aggressive because they have help if the defender pinches inside.
It appears that the linemen have double-teamed the down linemen and allowed the linebackers to go free. However, all four eyes of the offensive guard and tackle are on the linebacker while they are engaged in the initial double-team on the down lineman.

If the down lineman stays outside, the offensive tackle will stay engaged and the offensive guard will come off the initial double-team and block the linebacker.

If the down lineman pinches inside, the offensive tackle will go to the linebacker and the offensive guard will stay engaged and take over the down lineman.


Inside zone blocking

Launch play breakdown


Keys to Minnesota's zone blocking technique

1. The linemen stay hip-to-hip as they attack.

2. The linemen keep their shoulders square.

3. Most importantly, all four eyes of the two offensive linemen are on the linebacker as they double-team the down lineman.

4. The linemen must know who and when to take over the defensive lineman and who leaves to block the linebacker.

What separates Minnesota?
When watching Minnesota on tape, you see there are two things the Gophers do better than anyone in college football. The first is their ability to pull linemen on their outside stretch play. The second is their great technique in cutting defenders with legal cut blocks.

Pulling linemen on outside stretch
Minnesota does a great job pulling linemen on their outside stretch plays. Which lineman pulls is based on the alignment of the defense. This is actually a man-blocking scheme with the tight end blocking down on the defensive end and the guard blocking down on the defensive tackle. The offensive tackle pulls around for the outside linebacker and the center pulls around for the middle linebacker.


Outside stretch with man blocking

Launch play breakdown

Cut blocks


Minnesota linemen do an outstanding job of utilitizing legal cut blocks to chop linebackers to the ground. The reason they are good at it is they practice the block at full speed. Many teams in the country don't like to chop block in practice because of injury concerns. As a result, they never get good at it. Again, we mention the word commitment. The Gophers are committed to chop blocks and obviously practice them.

Cut blocks are illegal if two linemen are engaged on one defender at the same time or if an offensive blocker is blocking from the outside back in toward the line of scrimmage and blindsides a defender. As long as the defender sees the chop block coming, it is legal.


Summary
Minnesota is obviously well-coached and totally committed to running the football. Every college football team uses zone blocking, but no one does it as well as the Gophers.
_________________
ND72[/quote]

[Noodle]

Dang, fellas, this is high quality stuff. PBMax and KY, I've done some more reading and talking to my old man (former college OL), and you guys are exactly right.

Like Bojangles says, everybody cuts, but cutting under the ZBS and cutting under traditional man is apples and oranges for just the reasons you explain. The need under ZBS to move and extend also explains why Tausch is finding it tempting to lunge even though he's been doing cut blocks his whole career. And I'll say it again, when those big fellas are getting a little tired, their aim is going to be off, and you're going to have 320 lbs of hurtling scud OL going at some DL's knees.

Boom.

I'm not all that excited about this direction. Not at all.

[Partial]

I am amazed at you guys and how last year I heard nothing but rants on the broncos for this.

Warren's Sapps hit was legal, was it acceptable as well?

[RashanGary]

I thought Sapp's hit was acceptable. He was playing football. Clifton was jogging half assed and Sapp threw him on the ground. Had Clifton been paying attn, he wouldn't have been injured, he would have just fought off a block. Because he got injured, people make it bigger than it was, but IMHO Sapp was just playing football. I also never cared about cut blocks against the Packers. It was just part of football like Sacking the QB or a safty hitting a WR. It's a violent game. Teams get frustrated because the cut block keeps them on their toes. They should slow down and not play at 100% just like a WR protects his body going over the middle, just like Steve Smith protects his knee when he's getting tackled similar to the Barnett tackle. DT's don't have to run 100% right into a cut blocking lineman. They could just fall over and not try so damn hard. A WR isn't forced to put his arms up and take a hit right in the ribs. He can fold over adn let the ball drop. Thats life in the NFL.

[Rastak]

I thought Sapp's hit was acceptable. He was playing football. Clifton was jogging half assed and Sapp threw him on the ground. Had Clifton been paying attn, he wouldn't have been injured, he would have just fought off a block. Because he got injured, people make it bigger than it was, but IMHO Sapp was just playing football. I also never cared about cut blocks against the Packers. It was just part of football like Sacking the QB or a safty hitting a WR. It's a violent game. Teams get frustrated because the cut block keeps them on their toes. They should slow down and not play at 100% just like a WR protects his body going over the middle, just like Steve Smith protects his knee when he's getting tackled similar to the Barnett tackle. DT's don't have to run 100% right into a cut blocking lineman. They could just fall over and not try so damn hard. A WR isn't forced to put his arms up and take a hit right in the ribs. He can fold over adn let the ball drop. Thats life in the NFL.


I posted my take on that on JSO when it happened....legal hit that was not necessary and therefor somewhat cheap.

[Partial]

blatantly cheap. Now illegal.

I don't think any play has ever enraged packer fans as much as that cheap shot. Remember Sherman yelling after the game. Hopefully M3 shows that passion!!

Anyway, to the point -

If we were getting cut, I guarantee you guys would hate it. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, you all (generally speaking) think its acceptable.

I don't like it at all. I have high hopes for the running scheme and will support the Packers obviously, but I think its cheap and should be banned from the NFL. No one needs 300 pounds getting slammed into their legs. Especially if you're already a big guy and have bad knees to begin with.

[KYPack]

I am amazed at you guys and how last year I heard nothing but rants on the broncos for this.

Warren's Sapps hit was legal, was it acceptable as well?

Partial,

Man, we are going with a stretch zone scheme. There ain't nothing any of us can do about it. MM is the coach and him and Jags are gonna do it come hell or high water.

What is the sense pissing and moaning about it?

& no, it ain't cheating.

& I know that there will be more hell over it than just a little bit when the first NFC North opponent leaves the field with an injury from a cut block.

But, that is football. & all the complaining in the world ain't gonna make that zone scheme go away.

[billy_oliver880]

Didn't wisconsin play alot of stretch zone under alvarez?

[Noodle]

[quote=Partial]Man, we are going with a stretch zone scheme. There ain't nothing any of us can do about it. MM is the coach and him and Jags are gonna do it come hell or high water.

What is the sense pissing and moaning about it?


Cripes, KY, if we all followed that advice, there'd be no point in having a forum. Piss and moan is the lifeblood of this place. :wink:

[KYPack]

[quote=Partial]Man, we are going with a stretch zone scheme. There ain't nothing any of us can do about it. MM is the coach and him and Jags are gonna do it come hell or high water.

What is the sense pissing and moaning about it?


Cripes, KY, if we all followed that advice, there'd be no point in having a forum. Piss and moan is the lifeblood of this place. :wink:

OK Noodle.

ya got me.

I guess I only like it when I piss & moan.

[Partial]

KY,

I am most certainly not pissing and moaning. I couldn't care less as to what scheme they run. I think this is cheap though. The same way I thought it was cheap when we were cut in the super bowl. I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy in switching sides and saying its perfectly acceptable and not cheap now that we're the team doing it

[pbmax]

Didn't wisconsin play alot of stretch zone under alvarez?
That's an excellent question b_oliver and it illustrates why ZBS is different than zone blocking assignments.

Wisconsin not only ran/runs the stretch, it also cuts, reaches and one other block that is below the waist that I can't remember. They also can determine blocking assignments with a zone scheme. But they don't cut block like the Gophers/Broncos. And unlike the Gophers, they don't practice cut blocks.

When Wisconsin cuts, it the man who is blocking you that cuts, not someone from the other side of the formation. Even if its a guard moving to the second level to find the LB, its the guard from the same side of the formation.

It is therefore not usually from behind. They also cut on misdirection, esp. QB boots, to take out pursuit. But again, the pursuit comes after the change in direction and its the DE who is moving, and he runs face first into his original blocker (O tackle). So he can see what is coming, if his head is on a swivel.

The Gophers cut the pursuit and depending on the front, they cut the onside DT. As KY explained, often, not always, te cut comes after moving across the formation from a blocker who was not head on you and you can't see.

So it gets dicey to label it. The difference is in the timing, the number of cut blocks and the direction they come from. Also the number that occur to the LBs.

[pbmax]

Does anyone remember that the Broncos OLine wouldn't talk to the media during their Super Bowl years? Zimmerman, Schlereth, Tony Jones?

It was at the urging of Alex Gibbs, their O Line coach. Wonder if the questions we are asking here were the reason they held their tongue?

And also remember Bob McKittrick? I think he was OLine coach for the 49ers. He also taught cut blocks and some players hated him like some today hate John Teerlinck for teaching DLines to hurt QBs

I don't remember what plays the 49ers used it on, but Holmgren had Lovat teach the cut to the Packer tackles so they could run the screen past DEs.

[ND72]

I've wrote this in other places, but why is everyone complaining about cut blocks? It's LEGAL! it's legal in college, and it's legal in the pro's. Even under Sherman our lineman did cut a lot of players. In fact on ALL run plays to the LEFT, Tauscher's main responsibility last year was to cut the back side DT because sherman always pulled the guard. I know I'm too much of an OL guy, and I see this stuff...but wow. There is nothing cheap or dirty about cut blocking. And any defensive lineman will tell you the same thing. They can get away with darn near murder vs. the OL guy,but nobody complains or anything about that. It's Legal...period.

[Deputy Nutz]

I am with you. I love the cut block, it is the great equalizer. It keeps defensive linemen honest, they just can't blow gaps at 100 miles an hour.

That being said, I think you have to be a real piece of dog shit to cut a guy in the back of the legs, most likely because he beat you off the line and your ass was too slow.

[Partial]

legal yes. I just think its ironic how we're all throwing shoes at our TVs screaming when it happens to us, but now that we're doing it its totally legal and acceptable!!

[Tarlam!]

It saddens me that my beloved team will be instructed to use plays that are designed to injure opponents. It saddens me even more that the NFL allows careers to be interrupted, cut short in some cases, knowingly.

This is a sad day for sports fans.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That being said, I think you have to be a real piece of dog shit to cut a guy in the back of the legs, most likely because he beat you off the line and your ass was too slow.

Somebody posted that this block is illegal, that rule was changed back in '98.

But announcers continue to say it is legal 3 yards from line of scrimmage.

I don't know.

[ND72]

In the what is known as the "blocking zone" a lineman can block a player in anyway he wants. the BLOCKING ZONE is from 2 yards outside the Offensive tackle, both sides, 3 yards deep on either side of the line of scrimmage. A cut block is legal anywhere on the field. Driver cuts players all the time. Favre cuts players. Tauscher has cut players in every game he's ever played in.

I'm sorry but this isn't a "cheap" blocking scheme or anythign like that. It's ran my 67 of the 119 D-1A colleges, and is becoming bigger in the NFL.

[ND72]

It saddens me that my beloved team will be instructed to use plays that are designed to injure opponents. It saddens me even more that the NFL allows careers to be interrupted, cut short in some cases, knowingly.

This is a sad day for sports fans.

The plays are NOT instructed to hurt players. I don't know where you are getting this garbage from. Wisconsin has been running this same running scheme for 20 years, have you been crying about them?

[Rastak]

It saddens me that my beloved team will be instructed to use plays that are designed to injure opponents. It saddens me even more that the NFL allows careers to be interrupted, cut short in some cases, knowingly.

This is a sad day for sports fans.

The plays are NOT instructed to hurt players. I don't know where you are getting this garbage from. Wisconsin has been running this same running scheme for 20 years, have you been crying about them?


ND72, you seem very knowledgable. I read in a JSO article (I think that's where it was) that the Packers will not practice this block against their own players. If it's a totally normal and safe thing, why would this be?

[ND72]

They also don't practice full tackling vs. their own team....

[Rastak]

They also don't practice full tackling vs. their own team....


Not sure that's true, the guy with the red shirt doesn't get hit I will admit.
You certainly don't try and kill your teammates with huge hits..but are you saying there is no blocking in practice....the article I saw mentioned only this type of block as banned.

[CaptainKickass]

Two things:

1. Football is a violent sport. People will get injured regardless of techniques used. Unless you want to change the acronym "NFL" to stand for "National Flagfootball League" get over it.

2. At the risk of being redundant - What are the penalties for illegal cut/chop blocking specifically for the Offensive Line??

[pbmax]

In the what is known as the "blocking zone" a lineman can block a player in anyway he wants. the BLOCKING ZONE is from 2 yards outside the Offensive tackle, both sides, 3 yards deep on either side of the line of scrimmage. A cut block is legal anywhere on the field. Driver cuts players all the time. Favre cuts players. Tauscher has cut players in every game he's ever played in.

I'm sorry but this isn't a "cheap" blocking scheme or anythign like that. It's ran my 67 of the 119 D-1A colleges, and is becoming bigger in the NFL.
ND, is blocking in the legs from behind legal in the blocking zone? That's the question I still have. I am thinking about the Erik Williams block on John Jurkovich in Dallas.

And if I am not mistaken, you cannot crack back on an interior player from the outside into his legs, although this is not exactly a cut block, as its a crack back. And I believe you are also prevented from a hit to the legs if the defender is engaged with another blocker.

In other news, it was news to me in Rosiak's article that Gibbs developed the cut block in Denver inthe 90s. Hasn't this block been around since forever? Or is Alex Gibbs 120 years old?

[Partial]

sending 300+ pounders full speed is a hell of a lot of force into someone's knees. Especially when they are 300+ pounds themselves with bad knees.

That is not within the context of "football is a violent sport by nature, people get hurt". This is a deliberate intent on taking someone to the ground by kocking their legs down. Shitty if you ask me.

[Tarlam!]

Two things:

1. Football is a violent sport. People will get injured regardless of techniques used. Unless you want to change the acronym "NFL" to stand for "National Flagfootball League" get over it.

2. At the risk of being redundant - What are the penalties for illegal cut/chop blocking specifically for the Offensive Line??

I am fully O.K. with testosterone flying around. I love a good hit. One, where a player rises from from the gridiron after someone like Collins just smacked him to the point of a´n interstellar leap.

The thing is, he gets up. He is not carried off. I am not a wuss. I like a good hit. A GOOD hit.

[Rastak]

Hey ND, I wasn't ragging on you by the way, I do respect your opinion. I swear I'm just trying to understand this and you seem to have some experience.

[chain_gang]

Well, in my opinion, I don't feel it should be legal. People say what about the QB's(Carson Palmer rule, Blow to the head), WR's(Defenseless Wideout), there should be something to protect your mutli-million dollar DE, Remember Erasmus James, Purdue game Senior year, how did all of us Badger fans feel about that, whether it's a legal cut block or illegal it's up to the discretion of the officials. Which judging by all of last years playoff games is not a good idea. Now that said if the Packers win games with this new scheme, great, I love to see wins, but if any other team did it to Green Bay(For example the whole NFC North) I'd be pissed if my player got injured because of it.

The reason why the knee injuries aren't that common is because most teams don't run a consistent cut block offense, which will be what the packers run on the majority of plays. Install more running offenses like the Packers, Falcons, and Broncos and you'll see more injuries to opposing D's DL's. Hell I'll bet this year we'll see injuries to D-lineman this year, because the packers and Texans are running the Zone running game this year. That could be our comparison I guess.

Like I said I hope it works for GB and leads us to the playoffs, but I also hope that we don't end the seasons of too many D-lineman among the way.

[woodbuck27]

"I thought Sapp's hit was acceptable. He was playing football. Clifton was jogging half assed and Sapp threw him on the ground. Had Clifton been paying attn, he wouldn't have been injured, he would have just fought off a block. Because he got injured, people make it bigger than it was, but IMHO Sapp was just playing football." NickCollins

Nick with all respect. . . but that comment is objectionable.

Sapp's block on Chad Clifton was pure Bush League, and one of the worst cheap shots I've ever witnessed in the NFL. Clifton was too far from the play to be of any real effect in taking down the Buc that got that turnover.

Clifton was moving almost laterally across the field to his left and SAPPY blindsided him. That is the clear TRUTH.

The entire Packer Team should have run Warren Sapp out of the stadium, not left it to Mike Sherman to address him as he did after the game.

The absolute worst BUSH League play I've ever seen. I F'n can't stand Sapp since that cheap shot.

[woodbuck27]

From an article on the cut block:

It's a virtual certainty Green Bay's opponents will despise this philosophical change ( the cut block ). But some Packers don't seem to care.

"Some people think it's dirty," center Scott Wells said. "I just think it's part of football. It's not dirty. The defense has just as good of an opportunity to defend it as you do to make the block."

Atlanta consultant Alex Gibbs was one of the originators of the cut block and used it for years when he was the offensive line coach in Denver. New Packers offensive coordinator Jeff Jagodzinski, who was the offensive line coach in Atlanta last year, learned the finer points of cut blocking from Gibbs.

The technique is legal as long as a defensive player isn't engaged with another blocker. But it's been widely criticized because it leaves defensive linemen susceptible to injury.

In fact, in a game Jagodzinski coached last season, Carolina defensive ends Julius Peppers and Mike Rucker both suffered sprained ankles after being cut blocked by Falcons players.

Two years ago, Cincinnati defensive tackle Tony Williams suffered a broken ankle after being cut blocked by Broncos tackle George Foster. And Green Bay fans will never forget defensive tackle John Jurkovic suffering a torn medial collateral ligament after being cut by Dallas' Erik Williams in the 1995 playoffs.

"Sometimes it's part of the game. But sometimes it's total B.S.," Green Bay defensive tackle Colin Cole said. "Regardless of how you look at it, it's bad that they do it."

The Packers have worked on the technique during various drills this off-season. But because the risk of injury is so great, they won't cut their own players during training camp. So it won't be until the exhibition season that Green Bay's offensive linemen begin cut blocking during live action.

"It's a tough thing to get down," right tackle Mark Tauscher said. "You have to bring your feet with you or you can look pretty foolish. That's happened to all of us, and I'm sure it will happen again. But so far, I like it."

[Partial]

You know something is shady when our own players are speaking out about how they don't like it. Read Cole's statement on it.[/i]

[Rastak]

You know something is shady when our own players are speaking out about how they don't like it. Read Cole's statement on it.[/i]


ND72, any response to my question? Again, I'm not being confrentational. You seem to know your stuff and I'm asking a question.

[Deputy Nutz]

You can cut a guy any where you want inside the 3 yard box, you can also block a guy in the back with in the the 3 yard box. I think you're all been a bunch of pussies about this.

I learned how to cut a guy when I was 13 years old playing left guard. It is simply part of the game. I also played nose tackle in high school and defensive tackle in college for a couple of seasons and I got pissed when I caught a cut block in the back of the legs, but it also told me not to charge up field like a dumb ass the next time around. I can see it from both sides since I played both offensive and defensive line in college. Of course defensive guys are going to hate this block it can leave them a bit exposed, but tough shit, keep your head on a swivel.

Once again the NFL needs to crack down on the chop block from behind. I admit the defensive player is defenseless because he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head.

Once again nothing to talk about so we can totally blow this topic out of proportion. Seriously if any of you actually played the game of football you will realize that this is not a new thing what so ever. Gibbs has used it to a greater extent and has been liberal with how he has coached his chop block, but like I said I learned it the same week I put a helmet on for the first time and believe it our not Alex Gibbs was not my middle school offensive line coach.

I am so damn happy that other teams in the North Division are going to have to deal with this. It will knock them off there fucking rocker.

[KYPack]

Well Nutz, you sure told 'em. I don't think I was in the puss camp at all. You diatribe is correct. This is not new thing in the NFL. In fact, Forrest Gregg ( a former OL) was proably the biggest proponent of interior blocks in the back.

When his coached the Bengals, Gregg insisted on both cuts and blocking in the back for his interior lineman. There was a famous incident with the Bengals. An OLineman asked the line coach if these kinds of blocks were "ethical".
Gregg got wind of this treasonous question and barged into the offensive meeting. Witnesses described Gregg as truly "scary". Gregg was red in the face, nostrils flared, and eyebrows twitching as he screamed at the players...

"Goddamnitt, that's the way that play is drawn up and that's the way it''ll be run. If you all don't want to make those blocks, I'll find somebody who can"!!
(Add as many F's and other cuss words you need)

The Redskins, The Bengals, the Steelers, all have been famous for these kinds of blocks. What is "new" in the Gibbs system is the blocks in the back coming from down the line. I was at the Bengal Bronco game which Tony Williams got ythe broken leg. Foster came way down the line from the backside of the play. Williams had been creating havoc with the Bronco stretch play all day. Foster nailed his ass & then they replayed 10 times while Williams was getting carted off. There was mayhem in the air in that stadium that night.

[pbmax]

What is "new" in the Gibbs system is the blocks in the back coming from down the line. I was at the Bengal Bronco game which Tony Williams got ythe broken leg. Foster came way down the line from the backside of the play. Williams had been creating havoc with the Bronco stretch play all day. Foster nailed his ass & then they replayed 10 times while Williams was getting carted off. There was mayhem in the air in that stadium that night.
Exactly. I loved the piece by Rosiak that ascribed the development of the cut block to Gibbs himself. It read as though they were crediting Gibbs with inventing it.

Bob McKittrick, when he was with Walsh, pre-dating Holmgren, used this block as well.

What I could not find online, was when this block first was used. Anybody know?

[woodbuck27]

"What I could not find online, was when this block first was used. Anybody know?' pbmax

That will be a tough one pbmax but while I was looking for the answer i discovered this resource on Offensive line Duty. A long good read for anyone wanting to be in the same shape as Nutz is, on everything OL


Blocking


Actions used by offensive linemen in American football to move defenders away from the play of the ball. Blocking means pushing someone in the direction you want him to go, or to prevent a defender from getting to an area of the field you and your teammates are guarding. I shall assume you know something of the rudiments of the game.

The Offensive Line

The offensive line is defined as the five players who block and who are not allowed to catch a forward pass. They consist of one center, who snaps the ball to start the play, two guards, and two tackles.

At the beginning of a play, the offensive team lines up about the ball. The center holds the football, which still touches the ground, and prepares to snap it to the quarterback to begin the play. Immediately to his left and right are two guards. To their outside are the two tackles.

The blocking assignments are

C - Center
G - Guard
T - Tackle

A center is at the center of the offensive line. He must block straight ahead or left or right. Usually the defensive line will have only four men, and he does not have a DL assigned to him. He will help out to block whichever guard will need the most help. Sometims he will run downfield and block a linebacker, a difficult assignment. As head of the corps of offensive linemen, he is their anchor and their brains. He will have to adjust his linemen's blocking assignments if he feels the defense is going to do anything tricky. A good center in professional football will be about 6'4" and will have wrestled as a heavyweight wrestler. His lateral movements are very good.

A tackle is large and in charge. He is an anchor blocker, which means he is one of the largest and strongest men on the team. When a pocket of blockers collapses around the quarterback during a passing play, a guard and a tight end will block next to him in a formation reminiscent of a Greek phalanx: shoulder to shoulder. A tackle is a quiet man, but brutally strong. He takes it as a point of honor that none shall pass him. Professional tackles are behemoths. They can be 6'6" or bigger and usually weigh north of 300 lb. They are surprisingly agile for such big men. Watching an offensive tackle and a defensive tackle (also a large man) crash into each other is like watching two sumo wrestlers collide.

A guard is what's left over: He's about the same size as the center but less coordinated. He has good straight-ahead strength. He fits well with the rest of the line. He's dependable. Pulling guards are rarer than hens' teeth, because they have to be big AND run fast.

Basic Blocks

Blocking techniques are well described, with diagrams, at http://eteamz.active.com/football/instruction/tips/tip.cfm/589/

"There are three Golden Rules of Blocking. First, the blocker must keep his head between the defender and the play, maintaining proper position. Second, the feet never stop moving. And third, blocks are maintained until the whistle", which signals the end of the play.
There are ten basic types of block an offensive lineman uses. I shall describe some of them here.

The drive block is the most basic: the lineman fires out of his stance into the chest of the defensive lineman, low and hard. Feet keep churning. The objective is to move the lineman from his position. It's a strength on strength move. This is usually called for when the ball is being run into this area.

The read block calls for the blocker to make contact with the defender in the middle of the torso and "read" the defender. The idea is the defender will choose a shoulder to attempt to go around, and the blocker then proceeds to assist the defender in that direction. This is used when the direction of play is away from the OL's area of play, and it doesn't matter where the DL is getting moved to. It's a half-strength move that uses leverage against the defender.

The position block has the blocker position himself between the play and the defender. I can't describe this any better than the author does: "If the defender to be blocked is already lined up in such a manner, this block might be referred to as an Angle Block. If the defender has the superior angle on the blocker, then the blocker will attempt to "Hook" the defender. This is accomplished by making contact with and sliding the head to the outside of the defender. The blocker turns his behind to the running lane fully placing himself between the defender and the play. The hands are extended."

The double team block is when two blockers block the same man. A defensive back like a linebacker who rushes to fill the exposed gap is usually met by another blocker: either a pulling OL or a fullback. The collision of these two giants, who are running at full speed at each other, is something to behold. Linemen are taught to watch their knees for rolling bodies during the play.

The trap block is a bit of trickery which counts on a defensive lineman's over-aggressiveness. The blocker purposely vacates his spot, which permits the DL to rush in unopposed. He's counting on being hit, but when he's not, he's leaning into the run, and for a split second is off balance. Another lineman further down the line blindsides him with a block. The clipping penalty is not in force when blocks happen in the region between tackles, which permits this blocking to be legal. The block, if done correctly, is an enormous surprise to a DL and can be effective if used infrequently, but it requires a great deal of training to get the timing and coordination right. Trap blocks are practiced over and over again in blocking practices, but are only used a few times a game. Sometimes this is called a crack-back block, or simply a crack-back.

The cross block attempts to take advantage of pre existing angles at the point of attack. Which blocker "goes first" is determined by the running lane and defensive alignments and tendencies. Good communication between the offensive linemen is a must in order to properly execute a good cross block.

The cross pull block has the pulling blocker coming from his own side of the line across the Center position to the other side. The Pull Block occurs when the pulling player pulls to the same side of the line he is on, going even wider toward the side line.

Other blocks are mentioned at the web site mentioned above, but it's hard to explain them without actually playing the game.

Stances

An offensive lineman is not permitted to grab and hold the uniform of a defensive player. He must keeps his hands open or tucked close to his uniform. Blocking point of contact is at the offensive lineman's helmet and shoulder pads. If a defender must be driven right, the offensive lineman sticks his helmet to the left of the defender, and vice versa. Blocking is hardest on the legs and knees. Blockers are prone to knee and back injuries, since these joints absorb most of the impact of a large lineman.
Training

Training:

consists of a strength and conditioning regimen as well as skill drills.

Conditioning consists of weight training: bench presses and leg presses, as well as the usual arm and Pilates-like core conditiong exercises every athlete must endure. Runs develop the cardiovascular system.

Blocking sleds are the bane of every OL's life. They are man-sized pads attached to a flat metal boat-like structure that can slide across grass. You line up across from a dummy, and when the coach calls a whistle, you fire out of your stance and hit it, full speed. The boat moves a little. When you pop the sled, you drop to the ground, roll over like a dog, and get back into a stance ready to hit the next dummy. There are eight dummies per sled. Sometimes the offensive line coach, who's standing on the sled, wishes the sled to be moved across the field. This is when you start wondering when exactly you're going to puke. Because you will, eventually. Imagine doing blocking drills under the hot Alabama sun, under the merciless stare of Paul "Bear" Bryant, The University of Alabama's tyrant for so many decades. Only a few players died under his tutelage. This thought consoles you.

Skill drills are where blockers learn the choreography of the blocking patterns. Direct blocks are practiced with a man directly over you as well as when the defensive linemen line up in the gaps beween you and your teammate. Trap blocks and pull blocks are practiced over and over and over again until you can do them in your sleep. Containment blocks, used during passes, can't be taught except with live, rushing defensive linemen seeking to destroy your quarterback. You learn how to collapse your pocket of protection, and you learn how to adjust when your QB scrambles out of the pocket.

Social aspects

Linemen are likely to socialize more than any of their teammates. Since their blocking assignments are so highly choreographed, they want to get to know each other both on and off the field. They have dinners together and party together. It is something to see four or five big uglies dancing at the same time. For some reason they seem to marry the most petite women imaginable.

Want to know why Green Bay Packers quarterback legend Brett Favre is so popular with his linemen? He does blocking drills with them (or at least he used to). He has a workmanlike attitude they find endearing. He's not a prima donna. He takes hits like a man, and he doesn't complain about injuries. They don't comment when he's hurt, but they notice. If there's something a lineman knows, it's playing with pain and injury.

"He has played through a torn knee ligament and a broken thumb and despite that has started 209 consecutive regular season and playoff games. While other quarterbacks are often held out for lesser injuries, Favre continued to play through them and play through them at a high level." - Devastakar

He praises them in interviews. Nothing a lineman likes better than being praised by your quarterback. You may be quiet and shun the limelight, but it's still nice getting an attaboy from the star of your team. And he buys dinners for them. Praise is nice, but ribs is nicer, yassuh. Pass the sauce, would you, Brett?

"That Favre would celebrate primarily with his linemen, the big uglies, made him more of a champion for the unheralded." - Devastakar
Color commentator Terry Bradshaw was a Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback who also endeared himself to his linemen. He was almost as big and almost as strong as some of his linemen, and had the joie de vivre they enjoyed. He hung out with his linemen and partied with them. They loved him for it.

The interior game

I've written about blocking in technical terms, but now I wish to describe to you what it's like to actually block as an offensive lineman. I played football at a variety of skill positions at the high school football level, including playing offensive guard when I was needed there.

Defensive linemen are big and fast. They come off the ball fast, straight ahead. They wish to knock me down and run over me in pursuit of the man with the ball.

The stupid ones rarely look at the offensive lineman - he's merely an impediment. They think their strength will win the duel. If he's weak, I can handle him myself. Since I know the snap count, I try to get lower than him, below his arms, and raise him up with a forearm shiver before he has time to react. If I can get at his hip level and drive his body up, I have won. A man cannot rush effectively if his body isn't parallel to the ground. If I am much stronger than he is, it would give me great joy to knock him on his ass. There is no greater happiness standing over a man, while your arms are taped up and padded and look down on him with a glower and a promise to do it again the next time.

If he's strong, my fellow center or tackle will assist with the blocking.

A smart defensive lineman is incredibly hard to block.

He doesn't have to be strong, just smart and quick. He will look at me to attempt to read my blocking stance.

Will I block him left, or right? Will I even block him at all? Perhaps I will block the man on his left or right, and let someone else block him. He will look at my eyes to see where I am looking, but he will also look at my fingers: are they held normally? Are they clenched in abnormally tight clench? Do I look nervous? This usually tells him the run is right through my hole, and that I'm nervous about this next play.

When I line up in my stance, I can't give him any reads or, as poker players call them, tells. On passing plays, I have a tendency to rock back on my heels, because I will be retreating into a pocket around the quarterback. On block plays, I tend to lean forward and breathe harder for the blow-out block. But against a smart player I can't show anything that will give him an indication of the play's direction.

As we line up for snap count, the defensive linemen are talking to us. "You cunt. I'm going to hit you so hard your mamma's gonna have to call an ambulance." I shouldn't be saying anything, because I'm listening to the snap count or to check off colors, when my quarterback changes the play at the line of scrimmage. However, I'm looking at my man as well. Is he going to go to my left, to my right, or just bullrush me right up my numbers? I am also summoning my energies to hit him. I don't want to just hit him, I want to control the motherfucker. I want to dominate him. I want to humiliate him. And the guys on either side of me are looking up at their men, thinking the same thing.

The center may take his free hand and point, and tell us how we're to block. He is free to do so until we get into our blocking stance. From then on, we are not permitted to move until the ball goes into play.

The ball is snapped. Mayhem ensues.

How to describe this part? Well, it's about three seconds of pure violence. I fire out of my stance, like a runner out of sprinting blocks, feet wide apart, churning and moving all the time. My arms come up to hit him hard. He's doing the same to me, but he has the luxury of using his hands to grab my jersey and pull or push as he wishes. I know where my runner is moving, so I block to give my runner a nice hole to run through. Feet moving. arms furiously hitting my man as furiously as he's hitting me. One of us crumples first. Sometimes we collapse to the ground in a big pile, both exhausted.

In the pile of bodies that is the trench, there's a lot of pushing and shoving. Sometimes biting. MOTHERFUCKER WHO BIT ME? Sometimes a finger into the eyes. This is when fights start. We understand dirty trench fighting, but this is not permitted by unspoken convention. Fingers get twisted. My back gets stepped on by somebody. Whistles are blowing, signalling the end of the play, but my face is down in the mud. I can't see a damned thing until everybody else gets off me. My man pushes off me one more time. "Beat you that time cocksucker." I look up. I'll put my helmet against his and smile and say, "We made fifteen fucking yards, stupid. Eat shit and die." His eyes will flash and he'll say, "I'm going to fucking destroy you." "Any time, any where, bro."

Ladies and gentlemen, that's blocking.



REFERENCES

On types of blocks commonly used including diagrams go to:

http://eteamz.active.com/football/instruction/tips/tip.cfm/589/

On the lineman's stance go to :

http://eteamz.active.com/football/instruction/tips/tip.cfm/1669/

JohnnyGoodyear's encyclopedic knowledge of American football.

woodbuck27: Packer fans etc. I hope you enjoyed that article, as it really defines the OL requirements, and all the skills that an effective offensive lineman must acquire and use to make the offence WORK ! When you look back upon the OL we had in place, just a few years ago, I believe you will certainly agree, with the luxeries and advantage's that group of O-lineman contributed to the overall effectiveness of OUR "O".

We are now seeing a new group of inexperienced players attempt to learn the ZBS and aid the run and protect OUR QB. That is no small task requirement of OUR coach's and these new Packers. Being an effective O-Lineman is a daunting task.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.eteamz.com/football/o-line/runpage.htm

Also if your bored. . . use the above link for more information on OL blocking etc. :roll:

[woodbuck27]

Two things:

1. Football is a violent sport. People will get injured regardless of techniques used. Unless you want to change the acronym "NFL" to stand for "National Flagfootball League" get over it.

2. At the risk of being redundant - What are the penalties for illegal cut/chop blocking specifically for the Offensive Line??

Here you go :

Article 14

A chop block . . . is a foul by the offence, in which one offensive player (designated as A1 for purposes of this rule) blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower while another offensive player (A2) occupies that same defensive player in one of the circumstances described in subsections (1) through (6) below.

(1) On a forward pass play, A1 chops a defensive player while the defensive player is physically engaged by the blocking attempt of A2.

(2) On a forward pass play in which A2 physically engages a defensive player witha blockng attempt, A1 chops the defensive player after the contact by A2 has been broken and while A2 is still confronting the defensive player.

(3) On a forward pass play, A1 chops a defensive player while A2 confronts the defensive player in a pass blocking posture but is not physically engaged with the defensive player (a "lure").

(4) On a forward pass play, A1 fires out aggressively and blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and A2, engages the defensive player high.


Note: Each of the above circumstances (1) through (4) which describe a chop block foul on a forward pass play, also applies on a play in which an offensive indicates an apparent attempt to pass block but the play ultimately becomes a run.


(5) On a running play, A1 is line up in the backfield at the snap and subsequently chops a defensive player engaged above the waist by A2, and such block occurs on or behind the line of scrimmage in an area extending laterally to the positions originally occupied by the tight end on either side>

(6) On a running play, A1, an offensive lineman, chops a defensive player after the defensive player has been engaged by A2 (high or low), and the initial alignment of A2 is more than one position away from A1. This rule only applies when the block occurs at a time when the flow of the play is clearly away from A1.

(7) On a kicking play, A1 chops a defensive player while the defensive player is physically engaged by the blocking attempt of A2.

(8) On a kickng play in which A2 physically engages a defensive player with a block attempt, A1 chops the defensive player after the contact by A2 has been broken and while A2 is still confronting the defensive player.

(9) On a kicking play, A1 chops a defensive player while A2 confronts the defensive player in a kick blocking posture but is not physically engaged with the defensive player (a "lure").

(10) On a kicking play, A1 blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and A2 simultaneously or immediately after the block by A1, engage the defensive player high.


Note: Each of the above circumstances in subsections (7) through (10), which describes a chop block foul on a kicking play, also applies on a play in which the offensive player indicates an apparent attempt to kck protect, but the play ultimately becomes a run.


Penalty: For Chop Block: Loss of 15 yards.

[KYPack]

Sheezus, Woodbuck.

Who wrote that article, Walter Camp?

[woodbuck27]

Sheezus, Woodbuck.

Who wrote that article, Walter Camp?

That's one of those 'fill your boot's - Articles', Eh !

[woodbuck27]

Who is Walter Camp?


Walter Camp (April 7, 1859 – March 14, 1925) was a football coach known as the "Father of American Football". He is generally regarded as the inventor of the game and the most significant person in the history of American football.

Camp was born in the city of New Haven, Connecticut, the son of Leverett L. and Ellen Cornwell Camp. He attended Hopkins Grammar School in New Haven, entered Yale University in 1876 and was graduated in 1880.

By the age of thirty-three, a scant twelve years after graduating from Yale, Walter Camp had already become known as the "Father of American Football". In a column in the popular magazine Harper's Weekly, sports columnist Caspar Whitney had applied the nickname; the sobriquet was appropriate because, by 1892, Camp had almost single-handedly fashioned the game of American football. Its rising popularity was almost solely his doing, for he had taken the game of rugby and changed it into, in his way of thinking, an American game.

For almost 50 years, Camp served on the various collegiate football rules committees that developed the game of football during that time. His opinions, especially in his early years, dominated the sessions. Camp's contributions to early football included the introduction of the scrimmage in place of the rugby scrum, the reduction of the number of players to eleven, the forward pass, and the introduction of the now standard offensive arrangement of players (a seven-man offensive line and a four-man backfield consisting of a quarterback, two halfbacks, and a fullback). But Camp knew that developing the game was not enough; in order for it to catch on, the word had to spread.

Despite having a full-time job at the New Haven Clock Company and being an unpaid yet very involved advisor to the Yale football team, Camp wrote articles and books on football and also on sports in general. By the time of his death, he had written nearly 30 books and more than 250 magazine articles. His articles appeared in national periodicals such as Harper's Weekly, Collier's, Outing, Outlook, and The Independent, and in juvenile magazines such as St. Nicholas, Youth's Companion and Boys' Magazine. His stories also appeared in major New York City and Philadelphia daily newspapers.

According to his biographer, Richard P. Borkowski, "Camp was instrumental through writing and lecturing in attaching an almost mythical atmosphere of manliness and heroism to the game not previously known in American team sports."

Camp became one of the highest paid non-fiction writers in America, and he wrote to instruct Americans on his beloved game of football.

In the 1870s and early 1880s, football was played mainly by eastern colleges, and fan support generally did not extend beyond the students and professors of the schools. In 1880, the first Thanksgiving game played in New York City drew only 5,000 fans. By 1884 that figure rose to 10,000, and by the late 1880s the Thanksgiving games were much anticipated. A crowd of 25,000 was estimated at the 1889 Thanksgiving Day game in New York. In the early 1890s crowds of 30,000-40,000 people were not unusual.

While initially his writings dealt mostly with football, Camp also wrote about other sports as well. His belief that amateur sports developed qualities in youth such as self-control, leadership, citizenship and rugged individualism caused him to be a champion of most sports.

Historian John Rickards Betts identifies the years 1860-1890 in American history as "the athletic impulse" and the period 1890-1920 as "the triumph of athletics". Walter Camp straddles those two eras as a huge presence. Ronald A. Smith, in his book Sports and Freedom: The Rise of Big-Time College Athletics, wrote: "Camp, more than any one individual, created the American version of football that became the dominant college sport, and thus in a way, shaped the course of all intercollegiate sports in American. Camp is a prime example of how powerful men helped give direction to American college sport during the period it was growing most rapidly."

By his later years, Camp's role within Yale University had diminished. During this time, he became a proponent of physical fitness for all ages and wrote much on the subject. He developed a physical fitness routine named the Daily Dozen, which became so popular that the United States government requested his help in training military personnel.

By the time of Camp's death in 1925, his name was not synonymous merely with football but with physical fitness as well. During his writing career, his articles touched on everything - from commentaries on recent collegiate football games, to advice for fighting the common cold; from information on what a young girl should expect at the Yale Junior Promenade, to general advice on how to keep physically fit.

There is a debate as to who actually had the idea for an All-America team. The first All-America team appeared in the short-lived publication The Week's Sport, and although the article contained no byline, several historians credit Caspar Whitney, the editor of The Week's Sport, with the idea. While most people believe there was collaboration between the two, there are those who believe that Whitney used Camp's name to legitimize the picks and little else was of Camp's doing.

Camp himself confused the issue. In an article in Collier's dated January 14, 1899, he lists all the teams from 1889-1898. Two weeks later in the same magazine, Camp wrote, "In giving the list of All-America teams for a number of years in a recent issue, it was my intention to state that the selections were those of Mr. Caspar Whitney in Harper's Weekly". But writing in The Independent on October 27, 1904, Camp wrote about the popularity of the All-America team. "The selection of 'All-America' teams seems to have become a mania, and the only excuse that I can put forth for further contribution is that of habit, for in 1889, I first introduced the idea and selected the first eleven."

Whitney, two years after Camp's death, said in an article in Collier's in 1927: "I don't know whose idea it was. My memory is very treacherous and I simply cannot remember. Maybe the idea was mine, maybe it was Camp's. At any rate we worked closely together and we had a lot of fun doing it. Certainly it never occurred to either one of us, in those early days, that it would ever make anyone famous some day. If you're going to write something, give Camp the credit -- I don't want any credit."

A receipt of payment, signed by Whitney, for Camp's work on the first All-America team, was found within Camp's papers at the Yale University Library. A collaboration of some type is evident.

The All-America team in 1890 was published for the last time in The Week's Sport; again, there was no byline on the story. From 1891 to 1899, the teams were presented in Harper's Weekly. Whitney had joined Harper's Weekly as sporting editor and had begun writing a weekly column entitled "Amateur Sport." The All-America teams began appearing in this column. It is reasonably certain that Camp collaborated with Whitney on all the teams except in 1897; in that year, Whitney went on an extended trip and Camp's name was bylined on the story.

It was also the first time that second- and third-teams of All-Americas were produced. In 1899, Camp published an All-America team for Collier's. It was the exact team as Whitney's in Harper's Weekly, lending credence that Camp continued to collaborate with Whitney for one last time. From 1900-1924, with the exception of 1917, Camp's All-America teams would appear solely in Collier's Weekly. He was now picking the teams himself.

In 1917, World War I forced Camp to pick an All-Service team. So popular was the All-America team that one year a thief broke into the Collier's' printer, stole the list, and tried to sell it to another publication. After that incident, Camp began sending the teams in three different parcels to Collier's. The teams would finally be reunited only at press time. Sport pages across the nation ran the list soon after it appeared in Collier's. Other publications attempted to put together "All-America" teams, but Camp's team was the one everybody wanted to see. Harold “Redâ⠂¬Â Grange, the University of Illinois football great, remarked, "Camp was the No. 1 name in football; if you weren't on the Camp team, it didn't mean a thing." Upon Camp's death in 1925, famed sportswriter Grantland Rice took over the duties.

Camp also briefly served as Stanford's football coach in 1892 and 1894, compiling a 12-3 record with the Cardinal.

Camp is interred at Grove Street Cemetery in New Haven, Connecticut.

[CaptainKickass]

Thanks for the good info woodbuck.

That is some info I will not soon forget.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You can cut a guy any where you want inside the 3 yard box, you can also block a guy in the back with in the the 3 yard box.

Can you block a guy below the waist, from the back, within 3 yards?

I've read so many conflicting accounts in this thread that I don't know what to beleive. Until somebody quotes chapter and verse from the rule book, it's a mystery.

[Rastak]

You can cut a guy any where you want inside the 3 yard box, you can also block a guy in the back with in the the 3 yard box.

Can you block a guy below the waist, from the back, within 3 yards?

I've read so many conflicting accounts in this thread that I don't know what to beleive. Until somebody quotes chapter and verse from the rule book, it's a mystery.


That would be very very cheap.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You want anything done right, got to do it yourself.
http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules

2. Clipping: Throwing the body across the back of an opponent’s leg or hitting him from the back below the waist while moving up from behind unless the opponent is a runner or the action is in close line play.

3. Close Line Play: The area between the positions normally occupied by the offensive tackles, extending three yards on each side of the line of scrimmage. It is legal to clip above the knee.

A cut block is legal anywhere on the field: you can block at or below the knees as long as it is done from the front.

The "chop block" is easy to understand, that's when a player is already engaged and a second guy cuts him.

All that changes inside the tackle box is that you can clip, but then only if you make contact above the knee.

[CaptainKickass]

Harlan - you are certainly pulling your weight around this forum.

Mucho El thanks a boatload.

Sincerely,

The Captain

:D