War

[Freak Out]

Georgia is asking the US to back up it's promise to help defend a potential NATO member in a time of need. It's not going to happen obviously...George and Vlad were hanging at the Olympic opening ceremonies and I heard it was brought up ( Ha ha ha..) but there is no way we get involved Militarily at this time.

[BallHawk]

We need to backup Georgia, though. They're big time Western, big time Democratic. Can't let Russia crush them.

I doubt this will escelate to war, but this would be a "conflict" worth getting involved with.

[SkinBasket]

Jumping into a war against Russia isn't really an option. I wonder where the outraged international community is right now.

[BallHawk]

Jumping into a war against Russia isn't really an option. I wonder where the outraged international community is right now.

It's a conflict not a war. Or maybe it's a crisis. Whatever you do, just don't use the "W" word.

[Freak Out]

Jumping into a war against Russia isn't really an option. I wonder where the outraged international community is right now.

There is no way we get involved in a forceful way at any time...even if Russia annexed all of Georgia.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We need to backup Georgia, though. They're big time Western, big time Democratic. Can't let Russia crush them.

I doubt this will escelate to war, but this would be a "conflict" worth getting involved with.

I think Georgia has a pretty corrupt government, although I haven't kept up. Georgia has a republic within it that wants independence from Georgia. mostly Russians living there . Plus there is the complication of their ongoing border dispute with Alabama. (sorry, that was lame.)

anyway, it way beyond anything we can influence.

[Freak Out]

We need to backup Georgia, though. They're big time Western, big time Democratic. Can't let Russia crush them.

I doubt this will escelate to war, but this would be a "conflict" worth getting involved with.

I think Georgia has a pretty corrupt government, although I haven't kept up. Georgia has a republic within it that wants independence from Georgia. mostly Russians living there . Plus there is the complication of their ongoing border dispute with Alabama. (sorry, that was lame.)

anyway, it way beyond anything we can influence.

Both parties have been fighting over separatist provinces in Georgia since the breakup of the USSR...it's just getting much more serious today with Russia sending in a couple of tank battalions into South Ossetia backed with some major air support. This can turn real ugly if the west doesn't really rattle some cages...and a few Sabers even.

[BallHawk]

We need to backup Georgia, though. They're big time Western, big time Democratic. Can't let Russia crush them.

I doubt this will escelate to war, but this would be a "conflict" worth getting involved with.

I think Georgia has a pretty corrupt government, although I haven't kept up. Georgia has a republic within it that wants independence from Georgia. mostly Russians living there . Plus there is the complication of their ongoing border dispute with Alabama. (sorry, that was lame.)

anyway, it way beyond anything we can influence.

Does Georgia have a corrupt government? Not as much as one would expect. Saakashvili is a pretty good dude, even though there were those protests against the govt. back in '07. For a former USSR state, Georgia's going pretty good (way better than the shit they got going on in Ukraine)

I think that letting Russia do what it may would be a very poor decision. To leave a former USSR state and let Russia bully it around sends a bad message to these countries that are trying to align themselves with the US and democracy.

That being said, I dont' know what we should do. The US and Russia are already on pretty thin ice and you don't wanna push things any farther. It'd help if Putin wasn't behind the scenes using Medvedev as his puppet, but that's how it goes.

It's a tough one, but I'm certain that we just can't sit here with our arms folded.

[GoPackGo]

Why can't we just sit here with our arms folded? Our national security is not being threatened by Russia. There are other countries in the world to help keep world peace, go knock on their door.

[BallHawk]

Why can't we just sit here with our arms folded? Our national security is not being threatened by Russia. There are other countries in the world to help keep world peace, go knock on their door.

Believe me, I'm definitely not an advocate of America's being the world's policeman, going from country to country spreading democracy. However, sometimes you just gotta step in and fight for the little guy. And Russia is not a national security threat at this time, but our history with the Russians show how fast things can deteriorate.

But this isn't about national security. It's about a large world power (a power that is leaning back towards it's old ways) trying to suppress a pro-democratic government.

[GoPackGo]

Believe me, I'm definitely not an advocate of America's being the world's policeman, going from country to country spreading democracy. However, sometimes you just gotta step in and fight for the little guy.

Politically yes, militarily no

[BallHawk]

Believe me, I'm definitely not an advocate of America's being the world's policeman, going from country to country spreading democracy. However, sometimes you just gotta step in and fight for the little guy.

Politically yes, militarily no

What can we do politically? UN won't do anything considering Russia is on the Security Council as well as China who will back Russia to the death. Outside of that, what else is there? Russia will keep on trucking, no matter what words are said.

It's too early to say that the US should get involved militarily, but if peacekeepers are sent and nothing is resolved than you've got an issue on your hands.

[GoPackGo]

What do you mean when you say the United States should step in and fight for the little guy? If we aren't sending over political peacekeepers than how else can we step in and fight?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Why can't we just sit here with our arms folded? Our national security is not being threatened by Russia. There are other countries in the world to help keep world peace, go knock on their door.

Go...our president has stated numerous times that democracy is of the utmost importance. Gonna look pretty bad if he doesn't do anything..only fuels the international sentiment that we aren't interested in democracy...only our interests.

"It is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world," Bush said in his inaugural address after his swearing-in ceremony.

"We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world.

"America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one."

Bush called the quest for freedom "the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time."

"We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation -- the moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right."

"When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you. Democratic reformers facing repression, prison or exile can know: America sees you for who you are -- the future leaders of your free country," Bush said.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Surprisingly lack of conservs on this thread...rubber meets the road...where are they now? :oops:

[BallHawk]

Surprisingly lack of conservs on this thread...rubber meets the road...where are they now? :oops:

The topic-at-hand doesn't directly involve America so they just said "fuck it" and moved onto a different thread.

[SkinBasket]

Surprisingly lack of conservs on this thread...rubber meets the road...where are they now? :oops:

Waiting for the international community that liberals put so much faith in to take action. Or to even say anything. This is exactly the kind of situation NATO or the UN are supposed to address isn't it?

The only thing the US can do is ask them politely to stop or send in military support. I'm guessing they've already asked the Russians to stop. I'm also guessing fighting the Russians in an armed conflict isn't a realistic solution to anyone.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Surprisingly lack of conservs on this thread...rubber meets the road...where are they now? :oops:

Waiting for the international community that liberals put so much faith in to take action. Or to even say anything. This is exactly the kind of situation NATO or the UN are supposed to address isn't it?

The only thing the US can do is ask them politely to stop or send in military support. I'm guessing they've already asked the Russians to stop. I'm also guessing fighting the Russians in an armed conflict isn't a realistic solution to anyone.

Waiting...so, i guess we changed that regarding iraq and afghanistan. Nice how that works.

Skin..to bad our president's own words contradict you.

"When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you. Democratic reformers facing repression, prison or exile can know: America sees you for who you are -- the future leaders of your free country,"

when do we start the sanctions or embargo against russia?

Guess when their isn't any oil we won't go.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Surprisingly lack of conservs on this thread...rubber meets the road...where are they now? :oops:

The topic-at-hand doesn't directly involve America so they just said "fuck it" and moved onto a different thread.

Guess they missed this bushism.


The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/09/world/0807-web-for-GEORGIAmap.jpg

It sure looks like a small piece of land to be having a war over.

What I read is that Russia's ultimate goal is to overthrow the Georgian gov.

[falco]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/09/world/0807-web-for-GEORGIAmap.jpg

It sure looks like a small piece of land to be having a war over.

What I read is that Russia's ultimate goal is to overthrow the Georgian gov.

how big was kuwait?

[Joemailman]

We need to backup Georgia, though. They're big time Western, big time Democratic. Can't let Russia crush them.

I doubt this will escelate to war, but this would be a "conflict" worth getting involved with.

Hope the fighting doesn't spread. I have a sister living in Florida and another in South Carolina.

[texaspackerbacker]

There definitely are American interests here--an oil pipeline as well as a loyal and democratic government.

The seceding area is mostly ethnic Russian--thus, the reason Russia is sending in force to prevent Georgia from keeping the area in line. This is a reprise of the Cold War--they attack ours, we defend ours.

You can get an insight to the McCain way versus the Obama way from the statements of the two. McCain was clear in his support for Georgia, saying the UN and U.S. should pressure Russia to withdraw. Obama was even-handed, saying all sides should negotiate, no strong support for our influence or ally.

Bush should not leap to sending in American troops or anything like that. However, he should not take it off the table either. Russia knows that if faced with American military might, it will have to back down--unless America abdicates its role as the force for good in the world. I think this will be resolved without American force and with Georgia retaining the Ossetia region.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think this will be resolved without American force and with Georgia retaining the Ossetia region.

the U.N. and U.S. have zero pressure points to influence Russian behavior. I can't imagine why you think Russia will not triumph. They very much want to keep Georgia out of NATO, and here's a pretext to do it.

[texaspackerbacker]

I think this will be resolved without American force and with Georgia retaining the Ossetia region.

the U.N. and U.S. have zero pressure points to influence Russian behavior. I can't imagine why you think Russia will not triumph. They very much want to keep Georgia out of NATO, and here's a pretext to do it.

The threat of obliterating their military with conventional weaponry, not to even mention nukes isn't pressure? You might want to ask Putin and the new guy about that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

:shock: we are going to have a new land war in caucuses? Not enough to do in Afghanistan & Iraq?

Forget it, we are no threat to Russia.

[texaspackerbacker]

Dream on, Harlan. That 150 tank column sent into Georgia, how long do you think it would last if we decided to take it out? Maybe 15 minutes? Maybe 30 at the outside? Technology--American technology--has left you and the Russians behind--along with the rest of the world.

We may not have perfected mop-ups/nation-building, but we can do basically anything we put our mind to, militarily.

[Harlan Huckleby]

well, watch and learn.

[SkinBasket]

Surprisingly lack of conservs on this thread...rubber meets the road...where are they now? :oops:

Waiting for the international community that liberals put so much faith in to take action. Or to even say anything. This is exactly the kind of situation NATO or the UN are supposed to address isn't it?

The only thing the US can do is ask them politely to stop or send in military support. I'm guessing they've already asked the Russians to stop. I'm also guessing fighting the Russians in an armed conflict isn't a realistic solution to anyone.

Waiting...so, i guess we changed that regarding iraq and afghanistan. Nice how that works.

Skin..to bad our president's own words contradict you.

"When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you. Democratic reformers facing repression, prison or exile can know: America sees you for who you are -- the future leaders of your free country,"

when do we start the sanctions or embargo against russia?

Guess when their isn't any oil we won't go.

I think it's fairly obvious how different this situation is from Iraq or Afghanistan.

How is expecting the international community to do their job through established measures not supporting democracy?

I'm curious what your solution to this is.

[BallHawk]

Judging from reports it seems to me like Russia and Ossetia are playing victim by inflating the civilian dead. Russia claims 1,500 and Georgia claims 100. Hmmm.

It's only going to get worse from here. I fear this will get very ugly.

[texaspackerbacker]

Today's news seems to be pretty good--although you can't automatically believe what either side reports. The good guys--the America-trained and America-equipped Georgia military may have knocked out 40 of that 150 tank column Russia supposedly sent in. They also may have shot down ten Russian planes,

Georgia just might be able to inflict enough harm to the Russians that they don't need American help.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Tex, Russia is going to squash them like little bugs.

[BallHawk]

Good article on time.com about the conflict.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1831073,00.html

[Joemailman]

Surprisingly lack of conservs on this thread...rubber meets the road...where are they now? :oops:

Waiting for the international community that liberals put so much faith in to take action. Or to even say anything. This is exactly the kind of situation NATO or the UN are supposed to address isn't it?

The only thing the US can do is ask them politely to stop or send in military support. I'm guessing they've already asked the Russians to stop. I'm also guessing fighting the Russians in an armed conflict isn't a realistic solution to anyone.

The UN can do nothing because of the way the Security Council is set up. Any one of the 5 permanent members, of which Russia is one, can veto any action to be taken by the Security Council.

Georgia is not yet a member of NATO, so NATO won't intervene. Plus, Russia is the main source of natural gas in Europe, with its top 8 customers all members of NATO.

[BallHawk]

And of course, this is all about NATO. Russia wants to embarrass Saakashvili and Georgia into making NATO think again about admitting them. Russia doesn't want NATO increasing its boundaries to places like Georgia. So they find a way to get into a country and they wreck havoc.

Well played Russia, well played.

[BallHawk]

Now Russia is claiming charges of "complete genocide" by the Georgians onto the Ossetians.

You've gotta be kidding me. Russia has this down to a tee. Everything is one precise move. And they're going to get it done. South Ossetia is going to end up part of Russia unless anything new happens. Georgian forces have withdrawn, Russia has thousands of troops in there. It's over as far as the battle for South Ossetia.

What a horrible message to send to the rest of the world. I know the US had their hands tied, but this was a key example of the big guy just doing what they please with the little guy. Russia did what they pleased and nobody dared do anything to stop them.

Not good.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Russians don't care about South Ossetia. They want Georgia out of NATO, that's what this is about.

[BallHawk]

The Russians don't care about South Ossetia. They want Georgia out of NATO, that's what this is about.

I made that point in the above post, as well. Russia is embarrassing Georgia all it can to keep them out of NATO. However, they bring up charges of complete genocide. I see that as grounds for Ossetia to become part of Russia for "protection."

[texaspackerbacker]

Tex, Russia is going to squash them like little bugs.

Harlan, how is it you are such a "Russophile"?

Even back before we won the Cold War, America-trained and equipped forces almost invariably did better than Soviet or new Russian trained and equipped forces. Sure, if Russia wanted to commit its whole army against the 37,000 man force of Georgia, and if we stood by and let them, they might "crush them like a bug", but not before that bug took out an extremely unacceptable chunk of the formerly Red army. Believe me, it ain't gonna happen.

As for the NATO thing, I don't totally buy the importance of that. The American "cowboy" approach kinda negates the importance of NATO. We care more about our new former Soviet bloc allies than Old Europe--which comprises and controls most of NATO.

The leadership of Russia envisions the return of Russian power and a bilateral world. That just ain't happenin', thanks to American military power and technology, including the extension of it to our allies and clients.

Obama would turn all that around. That's just one aspect of the horrendous prospect of having him as president.

[GoPackGo]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20080810/i/r4014854835.jpg?x=400&y=273&sig=EzLF0x6C3OttNicI.ssflA--

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080809/capt.dc53621886524f71be6edb3a9b47da43.georgia_sout h_osetia_mosb155.jpg?x=400&y=290&sig=07Ay1kkNYDgJglcq.547sw--

:cry:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sure, if Russia wanted to commit its whole army against the 37,000 man force of Georgia, and if we stood by and let them, they might "crush them like a bug", but not before that bug took out an extremely unacceptable chunk of the formerly Red army. Believe me, it ain't gonna happen.

ok, hope you're right. your track record on predictions has not been so stellar.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/europe/11georgia.htm

In Washington, American officials reacted with deepening alarm to Russia’s military activities on Sunday. Georgian troops had tried to disengage, but the Russians had not allowed them.

“The Georgians told them, ‘We’re done. Let us withdraw,” one American military official said. “But the Russians are not letting them withdraw. They are pursuing them, and people are seeing this.”

The official said that it appeared that the Kremlin’s objectives, at a minimum, had extended beyond securing the enclaves and now included the destruction of the Georgian armed forces, with an aim of intensifying the domestic pressure on Saakashvili.

The Russians have gained all of their military objectives,” the American official said. “This is not about military objectives. This is about a political objective — removing a thorn in their side.”

[Freak Out]

The Russians are now pushing on to Gori which is in Georgia proper outside of South Ossetia. Things look to be getting pretty ugly and if Russia is not pressed hard from the west they will take most of the country if not all.

Is it time to show them what a real Air Force can do?

[bobblehead]

I'm late getting into all this, but to backtrack and answer the libs as to why we aren't getting involved let me in one sentence sum up all that I have written about iraq/iran/afghan.

Russia already has nuclear weapons and is not a radical islamic martyr seeking country therefore we don't give a fuck.

Ballhawk for the first time looked young and naive to me by thinking we would get involved to defend the helpless. We haven't done shit in Africa for how long?? Because they don't have oil=capital to develope nukes...but they do have a lot of injustice going on.

[BallHawk]

Ballhawk for the first time looked young and naive to me by thinking we would get involved to defend the helpless. We haven't done shit in Africa for how long?? Because they don't have oil=capital to develope nukes...but they do have a lot of injustice going on.

How many world superpowers are there in Africa? Africa is just not worth the time. Corruption in that continent cannot be overcome.

I did jump the gun a bit by suggesting the US should get involved, I admit. It's a bitch to see Russia doing what they please with Georgia, but I don't think anything can be done. The US is going to assist with transporting Georgian troops from Iraq back to Georgia. Apart from that, I don't think the US can/will do anything. It looks like Russia is just going to do everything short of a full-out war and invasion. They are going to leave Saakashvili's legacy in ruins and that will be that.

Where's Charlie Wilson when you need him?

[bobblehead]

Ballhawk for the first time looked young and naive to me by thinking we would get involved to defend the helpless. We haven't done shit in Africa for how long?? Because they don't have oil=capital to develope nukes...but they do have a lot of injustice going on.

How many world superpowers are there in Africa? Africa is just not worth the time. Corruption in that continent cannot be overcome.

I did jump the gun a bit by suggesting the US should get involved, I admit. It's a bitch to see Russia doing what they please with Georgia, but I don't think anything can be done. The US is going to assist with transporting Georgian troops from Iraq back to Georgia. Apart from that, I don't think the US can/will do anything. It looks like Russia is just going to do everything short of a full-out war and invasion. They are going to leave Saakashvili's legacy in ruins and that will be that.

Where's Charlie Wilson when you need him?

tht is a pretty fair assessment...except that we could obliterate russia militarily if we wanted to, but we won't, no way no how. Nothing to gain from it.

[digitaldean]

Where are the massive rallies in Europe against Russia for this aggression????

They can have tens/hundreds of thousands march in protests against the Iraq war, but agains the Russians, they don't do squat. Hypocrites plain and simple.

The UN??? How pitiful is that body. They are great in humanitarian aid (when not siphoning money due to corruption), but have lost their teeth as an honest broker in situations like this a long time ago.

Russians are going to do what they want because they know no one is really going to do anything against them.

The Europeans should get involved, but won't. They are hardly assisting the NATO contingent in Afghanistan. If they can't help in Afghanistan, then the EU should send a multi-national force to Georgia to serve as a buffer against Georgia and Russia.

Right now, we are seeing the real Vlad Putin.

[texaspackerbacker]

Sure, if Russia wanted to commit its whole army against the 37,000 man force of Georgia, and if we stood by and let them, they might "crush them like a bug", but not before that bug took out an extremely unacceptable chunk of the formerly Red army. Believe me, it ain't gonna happen.

ok, hope you're right. your track record on predictions has not been so stellar.

What? Where does that come from?

When in recent history--sports or politics--have I been significantly off target?

Bobblehead, you are undoubtedly right about the "no way no how" of going to war with Russia. That, however, doesn't mean you take the threat of it off the table--as Obama would and McCain would not.

[Freak Out]

It looks like the Georgian military has been ran out of Gori...although the Russians deny even attacking it. Ha ha....Sure Vlad.

[Freak Out]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050510-2.html

President Addresses and Thanks Citizens in Tbilisi, Georgia
Freedom Square
Tbilisi, Georgia

1:27 P.M. (Local)

PRESIDENT BUSH: Mr. President, thank you for that introduction. Citizens of a free Georgia, Laura and I were in the neighborhood -- we thought we'd swing by and say gamarjoba. (Applause.)

I am proud to stand beside a President who has shown such spirit, determination, and leadership in the cause of freedom. (Applause.) And Laura and I are proud to stand with the courageous people of Georgia, in this place that has earned a proud name -- Freedom Square. (Applause.)

Thousands gather in Freedom Square to hear President George W. Bush speak in Tbilisi, Georgia, Tuesday, May 10, 2005. "When Georgians gathered here 16 years ago, this square had a different name. Under Lenin's steely gaze, thousands of Georgians prayed and sang, and demanded their independence, said President Bush. "The Soviet army crushed that day of protest, but they could not crush the spirit of the Georgian people." White House photo by Paul Morse When Georgians gathered here 16 years ago, this square had a different name. Under Lenin's steely gaze, thousands of Georgians prayed and sang, and demanded their independence. The Soviet army crushed that day of protest, but they could not crush the spirit of the Georgian people. (Applause.)

The following year, Georgians returned to this square and pulled down the statue of Lenin. And on April 9th, 1991, you declared to the world that Soviet Georgia was no more, and that the independent nation of Georgia was born. (Applause.) On that historic day, you reclaimed your sovereignty, but the hopeful start you made was not fulfilled. So 18 months ago, Georgians returned to this square to complete the task you began in 1989. You gathered here armed with nothing but roses and the power of your convictions, and you claimed your liberty. And because you acted, Georgia is today both sovereign and free, and a beacon of liberty for this region and the world. (Applause.)

The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you. (Applause.)

You are building a free future for your children and grandchildren, and you are helping other nations to do the same. When the Afghan people defied terrorists to vote in that nation's first free presidential elections, Georgian soldiers were there to provide security. (Applause.) And last year -- and last year, when terrorist violence in Iraq was escalating, Georgia showed her courage. You increased your troop commitment in Iraq fivefold. The Iraqi people are grateful, and so are your American and coalition allies. (Applause.)

You are making many important contributions to freedom's cause, but your most important contribution is your example. In recent months, the world has marveled at the hopeful changes taking place from Baghdad to Beirut to Bishkek. But before there was a Purple Revolution in Iraq, or an Orange Revolution in Ukraine, or a Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, there was the Rose Revolution in Georgia. (Applause.) Your courage is inspiring democratic reformers and sending a message that echos across the world: Freedom will be the future of every nation and every people on Earth. (Applause.)

President George W. Bush and President Mikhail Saakashvili of Georgia react to the cheering of thousands of Tbilisi citizens in Freedom Square Tuesday, May 10, 2005. "You are building a democratic society where the rights of minorities are respected, where a free press flourishes, a vigorous opposition is welcome, and unity is achieved through peace," said the President in his remarks. "In this new Georgia, the rule of law will prevail, and freedom will be the birthright of every citizen." White House photo by Eric Draper Building a free society is the work of generations. It took nearly 15 years of struggle before liberty and justice fully took root in this country. Many of the students and workers who gathered here on this square 18 months ago were too young to remember the protests of 1989, but they took up freedom's cause and finished the work that their parents had begun. (Applause.)

Now, across the Caucasus, in Central Asia and the broader Middle East, we see the same desire for liberty burning in the hearts of young people. They are demanding their freedom -- and they will have it. (Applause.)

As free nations, the United States and Georgia have great responsibilities, and together, we will do our duty. Free societies are peaceful societies. And by extending liberty to millions who have not known it, we will advance the cause of freedom, and we will advance the cause of peace. (Applause.)

In this global struggle for liberty, our duties begin at home. While peaceful revolutions can bring down repressive regimes, the real changes and the real challenge is to build up free institutions in their place. This is difficult work, and you are undertaking it with dignity and determination. (Applause.) You have taken tough steps to reform your economy and to crack down on corruption. You are building a democratic society where the rights of minorities are respected, where a free press flourishes, a vigorous opposition is welcome, and unity is achieved through peace. In this new Georgia, the rule of law will prevail, and freedom will be the birthright of every citizen. (Applause.)

This was a dream of your late Prime Minister Zhvania who once said, "It is not by mere chance that we have adopted two very important ideas as our watch words: freedom and responsibility." Today, we pay tribute to this Georgian patriot who became a great leader of the global democratic revolution. In building a free and responsible society, you honor his memory and you carry on his legacy. (Applause.

As you build free institutions at home, the ties that bind our nations will grow deeper, as well. We respect Georgia's desire to join the institutions of Europe. We encourage your closer cooperation with NATO. Georgia's leaders know that the peaceful resolution of conflict is essential to your integration into the transatlantic community. At the same time, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia must be respected -- the territorial [sic] and sovereignty of Georgia must be respected by all nations. (Applause.)


Laura Bush and Sandra Roelofs, wife of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, are introduced before President Bush addresses a crowd of thousands at Freedom Square in Tbilisi, Georgia, Tuesday, May 10, 2005. White House photo by Eric Draper We are living in historic times when freedom is advancing, from the Black Sea to the Caspian, and to the Persian Gulf and beyond. As you watch free people gathering in squares like this across the world, waving their nations' flags and demanding their God-given rights, you can take pride in this fact: They have been inspired by your example and they take hope in your success. (Applause.)

As you build freedom in this country, you must know that the seeds of liberty you are planting in Georgian soil are flowering across the globe. (Applause.) I have come here to thank you for your courage. The American people value your friendship, and admire your determination. On behalf of all Americans, thank you, God bless you. Sakartvelos gaumarjos. (Applause.)

[GoPackGo]

^^^^^^^^

Clearly the Prez went over there and talked out of his ass. Where is the support for Georgia now?

[Harlan Huckleby]

A good time for a visit to Tiblisi from President Bush. Or even President Obama.

[SkinBasket]

^^^^^^^^

Clearly the Prez went over there and talked out of his ass. Where is the support for Georgia now?

Again, what do you want him to do? Bomb the Kremlin?

[BallHawk]

Again, what do you want him to do? Bomb the Kremlin?

I would suggest stealing Lenin's body, bring it back to the United States, and let a ventriloquist put it to good use on Broadway.

[mraynrand]

Again, what do you want him to do? Bomb the Kremlin?

I would suggest stealing Lenin's body, bring it back to the United States, and let a ventriloquist put it to good use on Broadway.

And now, Starring in the new play "Useful Idiots" ....


http://bmtv.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/chucky.jpg

[Joemailman]

What's Jon Gruden got to do with this?

[GoPackGo]

^^^^^^^^

Clearly the Prez went over there and talked out of his ass. Where is the support for Georgia now?

Again, what do you want him to do? Bomb the Kremlin?

It was news to me that President Bush went over there in 2005 and talked a big game on Russia's front porch.
Despite that, I wouldn't want to get involved militarily. However, shouldn't we be outraged that our ally is being ended?

*****update********
apparently we are outraged

The United States and its allies are pressing Russia to accept an immediate cease-fire with the former Soviet republic of Georgia and agree to international mediation over the crisis in Georgia's separatist areas.

[Freak Out]

Georgia pushed the issue with Russia and tried to run the opposition out of South Ossetia which really threw fuel on the fire and got the bombs a droppin this time around...it was bound to happen sooner or later because both sides were unwilling to budge. Russia has been able to use the situation to accomplish a few tasks on it's to do list as well as show the world it can still bully it's neighbor pretty effectively.

The sad thing is that we can really can't do anything to stop them except use force...and we will not do that. Dubyas good friend just laughs in our face. What are we going to do? Stop buying Russian oil? Push sanctions?

Where is the great American statesman these days that can rally the west and show Russia again that we stand together?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Dubyas good friend just laughs in our face. What are we going to do? Stop buying Russian oil? Push sanctions?



But he looked in his eyes.

[SkinBasket]

Where is the great American statesman these days that can rally the west and show Russia again that we stand together?

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/carls064/freealonzo/Obama-Surf.jpg
Let my people go!

[Freak Out]

Where is the great American statesman these days that can rally the west and show Russia again that we stand together?

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/carls064/freealonzo/Obama-Surf.jpg
Let my people go!

Does he have a farmers tan or is that just lens flare? :lol:

[texaspackerbacker]

As of 4 minutes ago, Yahoo News and AP report that the Russians have halted their invasion and agreed with the Georgians to pull back to pre-invasion positions.

This is exactly what Bush and McCain were calling for--apparently resulting from international pressure--us and the Europeans.

Watch it all fade to status quo--a good thing--unless you are the candidate for change, and the hallmark of that change is reducing America's power, influence, and standard of living.

[Tarlam!]

I wonder where the outraged international community is right now.

We're at home, knitting. Fuck off unless you want a 3-armed pullover to wear at the atlanta game, Skin.

[SkinBasket]

I wonder where the outraged international community is right now.

We're at home, knitting. Fuck off unless you want a 3-armed pullover to wear at the atlanta game, Skin.

Depends where the 3rd arm is.

[mraynrand]

Where is the great American statesman these days that can rally the west and show Russia again that we stand together?

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/carls064/freealonzo/Obama-Surf.jpg
Let my people go!

Does he have a farmers tan or is that just lens flare? :lol:

I think it's due to basking in the glow of Hillary during the primaries.

[Freak Out]

As of 4 minutes ago, Yahoo News and AP report that the Russians have halted their invasion and agreed with the Georgians to pull back to pre-invasion positions.

This is exactly what Bush and McCain were calling for--apparently resulting from international pressure--us and the Europeans.

Watch it all fade to status quo--a good thing--unless you are the candidate for change, and the hallmark of that change is reducing America's power, influence, and standard of living.

They control all of Georgia sans the Capital Tbilisi and have not pulled back yet. In fact I just heard a BBC report that a separatist group is attacking a Georgian town while the Russians do nothing...so much for Russian peacekeeping. I had to laugh when I heard Macs little speech about how we "are all Georgians today" :lol: I guess it's nice that we are going to send humanitarian aid with some military transports now that the fighting is over....better late than never....but if this is all we can do for our coalition members in a time of need its a pretty sad statement.

[BallHawk]

McCain doesn't know jack squat about winning wars or foreign affairs. I'm not saying Obama does (the most knowledgeable, by far, was Biden) but McCain is freaking clueless.

[HowardRoark]

McCain doesn't know jack squat about winning wars or foreign affairs. I'm not saying Obama does (the most knowledgeable, by far, was Biden) but McCain is freaking clueless.

For starters, I can’t think of any President who knows how to win a war. The only one I can think of off hand would be Ike. So, I think it is more of a judgment and leadership question. I am interested in why you think McCain doesn't know jack squat about winning wars. I don’t know either way, but am interested in why you believe this.

I do think that the microcosm of the past few years is telling though.

“It is a question of judgment; it is a question of a willingness to challenge policies that have failed. And (McCain) seems just dug in”, so said David Axelrod.

As a candidate for U.S. Senate in 2003, Obama said he would “unequivocally” oppose President Bush on the war. But once in office, he voted for every war-funding bill — until he decided to run for president.

Right around the time he delivered his address to the Democratic National Convention in 2004, he said, “there’s not much of a difference between my position and George Bush’s position at this stage.”

While he opposed the war, he was committed to Bush’s initially flawed military strategy.

But, when he needed a campaign issue, his position evolved into a consistent call for withdrawal in order to differentiate himself from Hillary Clinton. When the Bush administration finally surged troops, it was Obama who “dug in,” insisting that it wouldn’t work — and in fact would make things even worse.

McCain challenged Bush’s approach to Iraq nearly from the get-go. In the summer of 2003, in response to the upswing in violence, he called for “a lot more military” in order to win in Iraq. He said he had “no confidence” in Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. In May 2004, McCain said “we’ve got to adjust to the realities of the situation as it exists and that means doing whatever is necessary and acting decisively.”

McCain was challenging Bush when Obama was assuring voters there wasn’t “much difference” between his position and Bush’s. And now Obama is locked into a position despite the facts on the ground.

Who is digging in his heals?

One last thing about McCain; I think the Obama campaign has done a very good job of defusing McCain’s military/POW background. But the fact that McCain has flown a jet in combat, served in a war next to other soldiers, and stayed in prison when he could have left…….this puts him eons ahead of both Bush and Obama (and me for that matter) when it comes to making decisions about war.

[HowardRoark]

Where is the great American statesman these days that can rally the west and show Russia again that we stand together?

He's French.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_02/Sarkozy4PHO_468x343.jpg

[MJZiggy]

I wonder where the outraged international community is right now.

We're at home, knitting. Fuck off unless you want a 3-armed pullover to wear at the atlanta game, Skin.

That's MY territory, pal!! :smack:

[HowardRoark]

One other thing.....

When he met Vladimir Putin in 2001, President Bush said: "I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul."

When John McCain looked into Vladimir Putin's eyes, he saw "a K, a G, and a B."

[digitaldean]

I trust Putin as far as I can throw him.

He's dyed in the wool KGB and he's using all his tricks to get his way. Read today that pro-western Ukraine may be next on the hit parade.

As I said previously in this thread, where are the weak-assed Euros on this?? They seem to ignore that Georgia is one of the last links to the Black Sea.

If Russia gets a puppet gov't installed some of the oil/gas pipelines from Georgia/Azerbaijan, etc. will fall into Putin's hands. He will most certainly use that to blackmail,.....er, "Negotiate" with Europe and it's economy.

Europe's proximity can exert more pressure on this problem than the US can. But when the going gets tough, the Euros get going....out the door.

Though it's not much, I am glad Pres. Bush is sending in our military to deliver aid.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

One other thing.....

When he met Vladimir Putin in 2001, President Bush said: "I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul."

When John McCain looked into Vladimir Putin's eyes, he saw "a K, a G, and a B."

Is this true? That, so far, is from a secondary source. I doubt you can EVER find that attribution. The KGB is from Russia...according to dodering (sp?) mccain..he is the president of germany. :roll:

So, is the strategy now to bash bush to show how mccain is different?

Because, if so...some of us were on the mccain bandwagon before we even knew he was running. :lol:

[SkinBasket]

I wonder where the outraged international community is right now.

We're at home, knitting. Fuck off unless you want a 3-armed pullover to wear at the atlanta game, Skin.

That's MY territory, pal!! :smack:

Easy. He's knitting me a combination sweater/cock sock. I don't remember anything like that on your site.

[HowardRoark]

Is this true? That, so far, is from a secondary source. I doubt you can EVER find that attribution. The KGB is from Russia...according to dodering (sp?) mccain..he is the president of germany. :roll:

So, is the strategy now to bash bush to show how mccain is different?


Will this suffice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAVlaIJWP-Q

When Obama's main campaign scheme is to have the two of them joined at the hip, it might be useful to see it in a different light. Some old fashioned types call this the truth.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Is this true? That, so far, is from a secondary source. I doubt you can EVER find that attribution. The KGB is from Russia...according to dodering (sp?) mccain..he is the president of germany. :roll:

So, is the strategy now to bash bush to show how mccain is different?


Will this suffice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAVlaIJWP-Q

When Obama's main campaign scheme is to have the two of them joined at the hip, it might be useful to see it in a different light. Some old fashioned types call this the truth.

Ok.

But, are you ok with him basically lifting it from Powell? I know all of Fox was a twitter over Obama seemingly lifting material from Cuomo.

Can you say double standard?

BTW, so...are you and the rest of the repubs now going to admit that Bush's "friendship" policy was idiotic? I'm willing to bet that if he met Saddam back in the eighties..he woulda seen his soul. :wink:

Obama: Hard to blame him when McCain has flip flopped and adopted so many of the same positions. Or when he has basically kissed the ring of his don.

“I’d be honored to have President George Bush’s support, his endorsement,” McCain responded. “And I’d be honored to be anywhere with him under any circumstances.”

“I am proud of this president’s strategy in Iraq.” :lol:

Mccain like bush wants to stay with good ol' pervez...not a problem that the pakis seemed to have turned against him.

Mccain is now for cutting taxes like Bush.

"Free trade"..like Nafta..and soon columbia..but, that is for "national security." :roll:

Healthcare...

Please enumerate all the substantive differences tween the two.

[HowardRoark]

Ok.

But, are you ok with him basically lifting it from Powell? I know all of Fox was a twitter over Obama seemingly lifting material from Cuomo.

Can you say double standard?

BTW, so...are you and the rest of the repubs now going to admit that Bush's "friendship" policy was idiotic? I'm willing to bet that if he met Saddam back in the eighties..he woulda seen his soul. :wink:

Obama: Hard to blame him when McCain has flip flopped and adopted so many of the same positions. Or when he has basically kissed the ring of his don.

“I’d be honored to have President George Bush’s support, his endorsement,” McCain responded. “And I’d be honored to be anywhere with him under any circumstances.”

“I am proud of this president’s strategy in Iraq.” :lol:

Mccain like bush wants to stay with good ol' pervez...not a problem that the pakis seemed to have turned against him.

Mccain is now for cutting taxes like Bush.

"Free trade"..like Nafta..and soon columbia..but, that is for "national security." :roll:

Healthcare...

Please enumerate all the substantive differences tween the two.

This thread is about war. In particular the Russia/Georgia conflict. As digitaldean pointed out above, Ukraine is next up, so it is important to see what the two candidates think on this subject.

If we could just get Don Ho out of the Batman movie, we might get a glimpse into what his thoughts are on the subject.

I am more than happy to enumerate on any number of topics, just start a thread.

[digitaldean]

Ok.

But, are you ok with him basically lifting it from Powell? I know all of Fox was a twitter over Obama seemingly lifting material from Cuomo.

Can you say double standard?

BTW, so...are you and the rest of the repubs now going to admit that Bush's "friendship" policy was idiotic? I'm willing to bet that if he met Saddam back in the eighties..he woulda seen his soul. :wink:

Obama: Hard to blame him when McCain has flip flopped and adopted so many of the same positions. Or when he has basically kissed the ring of his don.

“I’d be honored to have President George Bush’s support, his endorsement,” McCain responded. “And I’d be honored to be anywhere with him under any circumstances.”

“I am proud of this president’s strategy in Iraq.” :lol:

Mccain like bush wants to stay with good ol' pervez...not a problem that the pakis seemed to have turned against him.

Mccain is now for cutting taxes like Bush.

"Free trade"..like Nafta..and soon columbia..but, that is for "national security." :roll:

Healthcare...

Please enumerate all the substantive differences tween the two.

:jack: :jack:

[bobblehead]

One last thing about McCain; I think the Obama campaign has done a very good job of defusing McCain’s military/POW background. But the fact that McCain has flown a jet in combat, served in a war next to other soldiers, and stayed in prison when he could have left…….this puts him eons ahead of both Bush and Obama (and me for that matter) when it comes to making decisions about war.

I still ain't voting for mccain, but if you are gonna put together a great post like that one, how can you leave out mccain's 2(?) son's on active duty as we speak?

[HowardRoark]

I still ain't voting for mccain, but if you are gonna put together a great post like that one, how can you leave out mccain's 2(?) son's on active duty as we speak?

No kidding, it's like pulling teeth getting him or anyone in the campaign to mention this fact.

I see this as another look at his character.