Colleges Urge Lowering Drinking Age

[BallHawk]

PER CNN


(AP) -- College presidents from about 100 of the nation's best-known universities, including Duke, Dartmouth and Ohio State, are calling on lawmakers to consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus.

The movement called the Amethyst Initiative began quietly recruiting presidents more than a year ago to provoke national debate about the drinking age.

"This is a law that is routinely evaded," said John McCardell, former president of Middlebury College in Vermont who started the organization. "It is a law that the people at whom it is directed believe is unjust and unfair and discriminatory."

Other prominent schools in the group include Syracuse, Tufts, Colgate, Kenyon and Morehouse.

But even before the presidents begin the public phase of their efforts, which may include publishing newspaper ads in the coming weeks, they are already facing sharp criticism.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving says lowering the drinking age would lead to more fatal car crashes. It accuses the presidents of misrepresenting science and looking for an easy way out of an inconvenient problem. MADD officials are even urging parents to think carefully about the safety of colleges whose presidents have signed on.

"It's very clear the 21-year-old drinking age will not be enforced at those campuses," said Laura Dean-Mooney, national president of MADD.

Both sides agree alcohol abuse by college students is a huge problem.

Research has found more than 40 percent of college students reported at least one symptom of alcohol abuse or dependence. One study has estimated more than 500,000 full-time students at four-year colleges suffer injuries each year related in some way to drinking, and about 1,700 die in such accidents.

A recent Associated Press analysis of federal records found that 157 college-age people, 18 to 23, drank themselves to death from 1999 through 2005.

Moana Jagasia, a Duke University sophomore from Singapore, where the drinking age is lower, said reducing the age in the U.S. could be helpful.

"There isn't that much difference in maturity between 21 and 18," she said. "If the age is younger, you're getting exposed to it at a younger age, and you don't freak out when you get to campus."

McCardell's group takes its name from ancient Greece, where the purple gemstone amethyst was widely believed to ward off drunkenness if used in drinking vessels and jewelry. He said college students will drink no matter what, but do so more dangerously when it's illegal.

The statement the presidents have signed avoids calling explicitly for a younger drinking age. Rather, it seeks "an informed and dispassionate debate" over the issue and the federal highway law that made 21 the de facto national drinking age by denying money to any state that bucks the trend.

But the statement makes clear the signers think the current law isn't working, citing a "culture of dangerous, clandestine binge-drinking," and noting that while adults under 21 can vote and enlist in the military, they "are told they are not mature enough to have a beer." Furthermore, "by choosing to use fake IDs, students make ethical compromises that erode respect for the law."

"I'm not sure where the dialogue will lead, but it's an important topic to American families and it deserves a straightforward dialogue," said William Troutt, president of Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee., who has signed the statement.

But some other college administrators sharply disagree that lowering the drinking age would help. University of Miami President Donna Shalala, who served as secretary of health and human services under President Clinton, declined to sign.

"I remember college campuses when we had 18-year-old drinking ages, and I honestly believe we've made some progress," Shalala said in a telephone interview. "To just shift it back down to the high schools makes no sense at all."

McCardell claims that his experiences as a president and a parent, as well as a historian studying Prohibition, have persuaded him the drinking age isn't working.

But critics say McCardell has badly misrepresented the research by suggesting that the decision to raise the drinking age from 18 to 21 may not have saved lives.

In fact, MADD CEO Chuck Hurley said, nearly all peer-reviewed studies looking at the change showed raising the drinking age reduced drunk-driving deaths. A survey of research from the U.S. and other countries by the Centers for Disease Control and others reached the same conclusion.

McCardell cites the work of Alexander Wagenaar, a University of Florida epidemiologist and expert on how changes in the drinking age affect safety. But Wagenaar himself sides with MADD in the debate.

The college presidents "see a problem of drinking on college campuses, and they don't want to deal with it," Wagenaar said in a telephone interview. "It's really unfortunate, but the science is very clear."

Another scholar who has extensively researched college binge-drinking also criticized the presidents' initiative.

"I understand why colleges are doing it, because it splits their students, and they like to treat them all alike rather than having to card some of them. It's a nuisance to them," said Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health.

But, "I wish these college presidents sat around and tried to work out ways to deal with the problem on their campus rather than try to eliminate the problem by defining it out of existence," he said.

Duke faced accusations of ignoring the heavy drinking that formed the backdrop of 2006 rape allegations against three lacrosse players. The rape allegations proved to be a hoax, but the alcohol-fueled party was never disputed.

Duke senior Wey Ruepten said university officials should accept the reality that students are going to drink and give them the responsibility that comes with alcohol.

"If you treat students like children, they're going to act like children," he said.

Duke President Richard Brodhead declined an interview request. But he wrote in a statement on the Amethyst Initiative's Web site that the 21-year-old drinking age "pushes drinking into hiding, heightening its risks." It also prevents school officials "from addressing drinking with students as an issue of responsible choice."

Hurley, of MADD, has a different take on the presidents.

"They're waving the white flag," he said

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/18/college.drinking.age.ap/index.html

[GoPackGo]

IMO
I agree the drinking age should be 18. I also believe that drugs should be legalized and taxed like a mofo with the proceeds going to grade schools, high schools, and drug dependency clinics. :idea:

[Badgerinmaine]

That might cut binge drinking on campuses, but it's pretty hard to argue with the decline in alcohol-related traffic deaths since the 21 age.

[sheepshead]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

[Charles Woodson]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

Lol thats the problem, is that you cant... I can always find a way to get beer even though im 16

[Tyrone Bigguns]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

Why?

Europe has a 16 year old drinking age and they don't have the problems we have.

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

[Badgerinmaine]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

Why?

Europe has a 16 year old drinking age and they don't have the problems we have.

They also have far better public transit, a less individualistic culture and, in general, make it a lot harder to get drivers' licenses.

[hoosier]

They also have far better public transit, a less individualistic culture and, in general, make it a lot harder to get drivers' licenses.

That's because they're commie rats :lol:

[swede]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

Why?

Europe has a 16 year old drinking age and they don't have the problems we have.

They also have far better public transit, a less individualistic culture and, in general, make it a lot harder to get drivers' licenses.

Holy non sequitur, Batman!

[retailguy]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

Why?

Europe has a 16 year old drinking age and they don't have the problems we have.

They also have far better public transit, a less individualistic culture and, in general, make it a lot harder to get drivers' licenses.

And on the bad side, they have taxed the living shit out of anything that moves including Gasoline. They have proportionatley less individual freedoms than we do, and smaller countries to deal with.

Do you really think that they'd have better mass transit if they had a land mass the size of the US?

If you've ever spent any time at all in Los Angeles you have a clear picture of why mass transit in the US will never resemble mass transit in Europe. The situations are completely different.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That might cut binge drinking on campuses, but it's pretty hard to argue with the decline in alcohol-related traffic deaths since the 21 age.


you could set the age to legally drink beer at 40 and the death rate would decline much more.

The 21-year-old drinking law is INCREDIBLE hypocricy. Most people started drinking in high school, and almost everyone drinks during their college years. Everything is winky-winky: ya, we know you're gonna drink, its part of growing up, but we're going to make it illegal so we can pretend to be above it all.

College towns reap HUGE profits from preying on college students. They give-out $300 tickets for drinking, $1000 (and more) tickets to hosts of parties that serve alchohol. ITs a hypocritical scam.

The idea of saying that a certain group of LEGAL ADULTS should have particular priviledges withheld from them is insane. ITs just the majority beating up on a minority.

I could see some justification in a 19-year-old age of majority to help keep alchohol out of high schools.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

Why?

Europe has a 16 year old drinking age and they don't have the problems we have.

They also have far better public transit, a less individualistic culture and, in general, make it a lot harder to get drivers' licenses.

And on the bad side, they have taxed the living shit out of anything that moves including Gasoline. They have proportionatley less individual freedoms than we do, and smaller countries to deal with.

Do you really think that they'd have better mass transit if they had a land mass the size of the US?

If you've ever spent any time at all in Los Angeles you have a clear picture of why mass transit in the US will never resemble mass transit in Europe. The situations are completely different.

Threadjack.

[BallHawk]

I think it's completely fair that you can fight for your country, potentially have your arms blown off, but having a beer......that's just too much to ask.

[GoPackGo]

^^^^^^
I'm glad this thread is back on track. I guess your opinion is probably shaped from your upbringing. My dad could drink legally at 18, on my 18th birthday, my dad drank a beer with me for the first time even though it is illegal.

[BallHawk]

^^^^^^
I'm glad this thread is back on track. I guess your opinion is probably shaped from your upbringing. My dad could drink legally at 18, on my 18th birthday, my dad drank a beer with me for the first time even though it is illegal.

I was brought up under the "drink occasionally at home" strategy. Kicking it Europe-style, almost. The #1 mistake America makes is making alcohol the forbidden fruit.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I've never met anyone who thinks the 18-year-old drinking law makes sense.

Maybe that is because I live in a college town, and everybody sees how stupid it is in practice. It just makes 90% of young people into "criminals", and breeds disrespect for the law.

[GoPackGo]

.delete

[mraynrand]

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

I think you're on to something here - the drinking age should be 21, except if you're in the military it's 18.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

I think you're on to something here - the drinking age should be 21, except if you're in the military it's 18.

I get your point, but it is still ridiculous.

Old enough to be a cop..old enough to go to prison...old enough to get married...old enough to have a drink (if you are married..should be mandatory that you drink).

[sheepshead]

^^^^^^
I'm glad this thread is back on track. I guess your opinion is probably shaped from your upbringing. My dad could drink legally at 18, on my 18th birthday, my dad drank a beer with me for the first time even though it is illegal.

I was brought up under the "drink occasionally at home" strategy. Kicking it Europe-style, almost. The #1 mistake America makes is making alcohol the forbidden fruit.

That makes sense for sex. Alcohol, not so much. There are some arguments on that side. Most and from the right sources say keep it out of kids mouths as much as possible. Zero tolerance until age 21.

Would you rather have your kid bangin all day at age 35 or doing shots of tequila?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

^^^^^^
I'm glad this thread is back on track. I guess your opinion is probably shaped from your upbringing. My dad could drink legally at 18, on my 18th birthday, my dad drank a beer with me for the first time even though it is illegal.

I was brought up under the "drink occasionally at home" strategy. Kicking it Europe-style, almost. The #1 mistake America makes is making alcohol the forbidden fruit.

That makes sense for sex. Alcohol, not so much. There are some arguments on that side. Most and from the right sources say keep it out of kids mouths as much as possible. Zero tolerance until age 21.

Would you rather have your kid bangin all day at age 35 or doing shots of tequila?

Interesting...we are kids till 21. Hmm, so i guess those are kids fighting in iraq? Kids that are in prison. Kids working in law enforcement.

Interesting how a conservative now wants to butt into people's lives. Now, big gov't is ok. :oops:

[mraynrand]

(if you are married..should be mandatory that you drink).

QFT

[Partial]

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

I think you're on to something here - the drinking age should be 21, except if you're in the military it's 18.

I get your point, but it is still ridiculous.

Old enough to be a cop..old enough to go to prison...old enough to get married...old enough to have a drink (if you are married..should be mandatory that you drink).

Just because you're old enough doesn't mean you're responsible enough.

I am all for drinking at 18, with the rule being a .05 for drunk driving and a minimum sentence of 10 years in the slammer, no pay, but 50 hours a week of community service.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

I think you're on to something here - the drinking age should be 21, except if you're in the military it's 18.

I get your point, but it is still ridiculous.

Old enough to be a cop..old enough to go to prison...old enough to get married...old enough to have a drink (if you are married..should be mandatory that you drink).

Just because you're old enough doesn't mean you're responsible enough.

I am all for drinking at 18, with the rule being a .05 for drunk driving and a minimum sentence of 10 years in the slammer, no pay, but 50 hours a week of community service.

You can't have different laws for different age groups...that is called discrimnation. The only laws like that are juvie vs. adult.

Should we then use your logic...how do we determine an 18 year old is responsible enough to be a cop or in the service.

[Partial]

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

I think you're on to something here - the drinking age should be 21, except if you're in the military it's 18.

I get your point, but it is still ridiculous.

Old enough to be a cop..old enough to go to prison...old enough to get married...old enough to have a drink (if you are married..should be mandatory that you drink).

Just because you're old enough doesn't mean you're responsible enough.

I am all for drinking at 18, with the rule being a .05 for drunk driving and a minimum sentence of 10 years in the slammer, no pay, but 50 hours a week of community service.

You can't have different laws for different age groups...that is called discrimnation. The only laws like that are juvie vs. adult.

Should we then use your logic...how do we determine an 18 year old is responsible enough to be a cop or in the service.

Where did I say different laws? People in general are really irresponsible. My next door neighbor was killed by a drunk driver. Dumbass was ticketed for it 4 times, on the 5th time killing a close friend.

Ridiculous that so much careless and lack of intelligence/respect exists and is tolerated.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Most and from the right sources say keep it out of kids mouths as much as possible. Zero tolerance until age 21.

ya. how is that zero tolerance prohibition working out?

when did you have your first beer, sheepshead?

[mraynrand]

Most and from the right sources say keep it out of kids mouths as much as possible. Zero tolerance until age 21.

ya. how is that zero tolerance prohibition working out?

when did you have your first beer, sheepshead?

Yeah, if you start outlawing liquor for the young folks, they'll just break into the garage next door to steal it - and you'll be forced to call 911 and shoot them in the back.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

I think you're on to something here - the drinking age should be 21, except if you're in the military it's 18.

I get your point, but it is still ridiculous.

Old enough to be a cop..old enough to go to prison...old enough to get married...old enough to have a drink (if you are married..should be mandatory that you drink).

Just because you're old enough doesn't mean you're responsible enough.

I am all for drinking at 18, with the rule being a .05 for drunk driving and a minimum sentence of 10 years in the slammer, no pay, but 50 hours a week of community service.

You can't have different laws for different age groups...that is called discrimnation. The only laws like that are juvie vs. adult.

Should we then use your logic...how do we determine an 18 year old is responsible enough to be a cop or in the service.

Where did I say different laws? People in general are really irresponsible. My next door neighbor was killed by a drunk driver. Dumbass was ticketed for it 4 times, on the 5th time killing a close friend.

Ridiculous that so much careless and lack of intelligence/respect exists and is tolerated.

I took the part of .05 to be specific to 18 year olds.

But, i'm in no way in favor of lowering the BAC. It is already ridiculous.

As for the dumbass..your story doesn't ring true. That person had to have served at least jail time 5 days to 6 months..and revocation of license for 12-18 months.

3rd offense: 30 days to a year. 2-3 year revocation.

4th offense: 60 days to a year. 2-3 year revocation.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Most and from the right sources say keep it out of kids mouths as much as possible. Zero tolerance until age 21.

ya. how is that zero tolerance prohibition working out?

when did you have your first beer, sheepshead?

Yeah, if you start outlawing liquor for the young folks, they'll just break into the garage next door to steal it - and you'll be forced to call 911 and shoot them in the back.

And, that is why it is best to have them wait till 25...fully grown means a much bigger target.

[Partial]

But, i find it hypocritical to allow 18 year olds to fight for their country, but when they return can't have a beer? C'mon.

I think you're on to something here - the drinking age should be 21, except if you're in the military it's 18.

I get your point, but it is still ridiculous.

Old enough to be a cop..old enough to go to prison...old enough to get married...old enough to have a drink (if you are married..should be mandatory that you drink).

Just because you're old enough doesn't mean you're responsible enough.

I am all for drinking at 18, with the rule being a .05 for drunk driving and a minimum sentence of 10 years in the slammer, no pay, but 50 hours a week of community service.

You can't have different laws for different age groups...that is called discrimnation. The only laws like that are juvie vs. adult.

Should we then use your logic...how do we determine an 18 year old is responsible enough to be a cop or in the service.

Where did I say different laws? People in general are really irresponsible. My next door neighbor was killed by a drunk driver. Dumbass was ticketed for it 4 times, on the 5th time killing a close friend.

Ridiculous that so much careless and lack of intelligence/respect exists and is tolerated.

I took the part of .05 to be specific to 18 year olds.

But, i'm in no way in favor of lowering the BAC. It is already ridiculous.

As for the dumbass..your story doesn't ring true. That person had to have served at least jail time 5 days to 6 months..and revocation of license for 12-18 months.

3rd offense: 30 days to a year. 2-3 year revocation.

4th offense: 60 days to a year. 2-3 year revocation.

The point is to make it so low that people do NOT touch the wheel PERIOD if they are drinking for paranoia. If you can't afford a cab, you shouldn't be out drinking. If you can't crash at a buddy or family members house for said get together, then don't drink.

I have no idea what sort of jail time he has spent, but I assure you it was his 5th offense.

[Partial]

Actually it is the 3rd offense. I just looked up the artical in the paper. Someone told me it was the 5th. Regardless, its bs.

[BallHawk]

Yeah, if you start outlawing liquor for the young folks, they'll just break into the garage next door to steal it - and you'll be forced to call 911 and shoot them in the back.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg

[mraynrand]

The point is to make it so low that people do NOT touch the wheel PERIOD if they are drinking for paranoia.

I never drink for paranoia, but I once ran a 10K for it.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The point is to make it so low that people do NOT touch the wheel PERIOD if they are drinking for paranoia. If you can't afford a cab, you shouldn't be out drinking. If you can't crash at a buddy or family members house for said get together, then don't drink.

I have no idea what sort of jail time he has spent, but I assure you it was his 5th offense.

Having one drink and getting behind the wheel is no more dangerous than most idiot drivers...fiddling with the radio, eating, disciplining kids, etc.

To link drinking to affording cabs is asinine....to bad your car loving country didnt' want mass transit like our euro weenie friends.

[packers11]

I'm 19. And most of my friends have fakes. Most of the time your hanging out with some older kids too, so there is always alcohol available. The 21 rule is definitely not working...

I think once your out of high-school you should be eligible to buy alcohol.

[packers11]

and people that are wasted and drive are retarded , if they do it at 18, they will do it at 21... You basically spare them 3 years (hopefully) not to completely fuck up...

I say 18/19 (right out of high-school) is perfect... I see so many kids profit off of buying other kids alcohol in college. Also another big industry that is booming is fake ID selling... Those kids roll in some SERIOUS CASH...

[retailguy]

if they do it at 18, they will do it at 21...


Do kids today not mature? Some of the kids I've hired were much different at 21 than they were at 18....

[Tyrone Bigguns]

if they do it at 18, they will do it at 21...


Do kids today not mature? Some of the kids I've hired were much different at 21 than they were at 18....

I think they do as well. We shoudn't drink till at least 40. Must ensure maximum maturity..couple of kids and a mortgage payment will make most mature.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The point is to make it so low that people do NOT touch the wheel PERIOD if they are drinking for paranoia. If you can't afford a cab, you shouldn't be out drinking. If you can't crash at a buddy or family members house for said get together, then don't drink.

Didn't you have a drink and then drove during the PackerRats outing? Or maybe you were riding with the guy that did it? Let's be real here. Most people can drive fine as long as they stay under a beer/hour. (I should say all people that don't suck at driving even without alcohol are fine.) Zero tolerance? Man, some people want to take what little fun I have in my life. I'm really looking forward to the day when I go to the bar on Sunday to watch the Packers, have a couple of beers, and some cop busts me for a DUI (zero tolerance). Staying with a "buddy" isn't quite feasible for most married dudes, and paying $30+ for a cab doesn't sound appealing to me.

[Badgerinmaine]

every day that you keep drinks out of the hands of anyone under 25 is a victory. Keep and enforce the laws.

Why?

Europe has a 16 year old drinking age and they don't have the problems we have.

They also have far better public transit, a less individualistic culture and, in general, make it a lot harder to get drivers' licenses.

Holy non sequitur, Batman!
Hardly! It's the counterargument I raise with my college students all the time when they argue for an 18 year old age. If you're drunk in a place with good public transit, you wobble on to the bus, or subway, or whatever, and go home. You may puke in the morning, but nobody else gets hurt. In most places in the US, that's less likely to happen. Take Maine, where I live. There's no evening public transit within 50 miles of here, other than cabs, and 18 year olds are likely to think they cost too much (plus, smaller cities don't have many; you'll have to phone them). So, people drink, get behind the wheel because they lack other options, and drive into trees. Furthermore, younger drivers don't have their judgment centers in their brains as well developed as older people do, so they take too many chances driving. If it weren't for driving issues, I could see where an 18 year old age makes sense. But in the near future, it's unlikely any of them will be solved. Too many will drive drunk. (Not to mention the increased risk of other problems when drunk that colleges see, but that's a whole other thread).

[Badgerinmaine]

I say 18/19 (right out of high-school) is perfect... I see so many kids profit off of buying other kids alcohol in college. Also another big industry that is booming is fake ID selling... Those kids roll in some SERIOUS CASH...

You're probably right, but then if the age is 18 everywhere, why wouldn't that just push the fake ID selling and profit-taking down to the high school level? You'd have 16 year olds buying fake IDs to buy liquor.

[mraynrand]

if they do it at 18, they will do it at 21...


Do kids today not mature? Some of the kids I've hired were much different at 21 than they were at 18....

I think they do as well. We shoudn't drink till at least 40. Must ensure maximum maturity..couple of kids and a mortgage payment will make most mature.

Don't count on it. It just makes you drink alone in the basement, or at the weekly poker game if the wife lets you off the leash.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

if they do it at 18, they will do it at 21...


Do kids today not mature? Some of the kids I've hired were much different at 21 than they were at 18....

I think they do as well. We shoudn't drink till at least 40. Must ensure maximum maturity..couple of kids and a mortgage payment will make most mature.

Don't count on it. It just makes you drink alone in the basement, or at the weekly poker game if the wife lets you off the leash.

Sounds like it works!!

A wife, kids, and mortgage keeps you off the streets...for any kind of fun.

[Badgerinmaine]

You can't have different laws for different age groups...that is called discrimnation. The only laws like that are juvie vs. adult.

Should we then use your logic...how do we determine an 18 year old is responsible enough to be a cop or in the service.

That depends on how you define laws, but there are all sorts of variations that don't follow 18 or 21 years of age in what is permitted based on age. Take employment: 12 year olds are allowed in many states to work at jobs 11 year olds can't, and 16 year olds are given still more freedom. I recall from my youth that 16 was the legal age for buying airplane glue (I was building a model when I was under 16 and was told I couldn't do it...) You can marry when you are under 18 in most places; say 16 is the line there. Or, take elections: you have to be 25 to run for the US House, 30 for the Senate, and 35 for the presidency. Here in Maine, you have to be 25 just to run for the state Senate. And when it comes to alcohol, there used to be a ludicrous patchwork of laws based on age. Some states said "beer and wine at 18, or 19, yes, but you have to be 21 to buy liquor", or "you can buy 3.2 beer as a 19 year old, but you have to be 21 to buy 'strong beer'".

[Badgerinmaine]

The point is to make it so low that people do NOT touch the wheel PERIOD if they are drinking for paranoia.

I never drink for paranoia, but I once ran a 10K for it.
:rs:

Still got the t-shirt? 8-)

[Badgerinmaine]

Europe has a 16 year old drinking age and they don't have the problems we have.

They also have far better public transit, a less individualistic culture and, in general, make it a lot harder to get drivers' licenses.

And on the bad side, they have taxed the living shit out of anything that moves including Gasoline. They have proportionatley less individual freedoms than we do, and smaller countries to deal with.

Do you really think that they'd have better mass transit if they had a land mass the size of the US?

If you've ever spent any time at all in Los Angeles you have a clear picture of why mass transit in the US will never resemble mass transit in Europe. The situations are completely different.

It is probably true that they'd have poorer public transit of they were the size of the US. And, it is true that I'm a backer of public transit when I can use it (hell, I grew up in Madison, where it's pretty much regarded as a civic virtue). But for whatever reason, for good or bad, they've got better access to it than we do--and my point is, alcohol laws that may make sense over there might not in most of the US because of that. The incentive structure about drinking and driving is very different here.

[MJZiggy]

I say 18/19 (right out of high-school) is perfect... I see so many kids profit off of buying other kids alcohol in college. Also another big industry that is booming is fake ID selling... Those kids roll in some SERIOUS CASH...

You're probably right, but then if the age is 18 everywhere, why wouldn't that just push the fake ID selling and profit-taking down to the high school level? You'd have 16 year olds buying fake IDs to buy liquor.

College kids have more cash and more independence.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You can't have different laws for different age groups...that is called discrimnation. The only laws like that are juvie vs. adult.

Should we then use your logic...how do we determine an 18 year old is responsible enough to be a cop or in the service.

That depends on how you define laws, but there are all sorts of variations that don't follow 18 or 21 years of age in what is permitted based on age. Take employment: 12 year olds are allowed in many states to work at jobs 11 year olds can't, and 16 year olds are given still more freedom. I recall from my youth that 16 was the legal age for buying airplane glue (I was building a model when I was under 16 and was told I couldn't do it...) You can marry when you are under 18 in most places; say 16 is the line there. Or, take elections: you have to be 25 to run for the US House, 30 for the Senate, and 35 for the presidency. Here in Maine, you have to be 25 just to run for the state Senate. And when it comes to alcohol, there used to be a ludicrous patchwork of laws based on age. Some states said "beer and wine at 18, or 19, yes, but you have to be 21 to buy liquor", or "you can buy 3.2 beer as a 19 year old, but you have to be 21 to buy 'strong beer'".

THe laws that are applicable. Taking about federal/state election laws isn't applicable.

Employment: That is a state's right. Fine, let's go back to that...the reason we have 21 is because the feds withheld dollars.

But, again, you are talking about degrees within juvie. Not adults.

And, again..not applicable. That is like talking about tax law and criminal law. :roll:

You are scrambling..any law that tried that today would be shot down quickly.