Offensive Line Depth Chart Change

[Joemailman]

Depth chart updated 8/18 has Colledge (LG) and Spitz (RG) as the first team guards. Sitton is listed as the second team RG. Anyone know if MM has discussed this? http://www.packers.com/team/depth_chart/

[pbmax]

I am not sure how accurate this is. Wells is hurt and Spitz was back at Center this week.

[Joemailman]

With Wells hurt, Spitz would be at Center since he is listed as the backup Center. However, if Wells is healthy, is Sitton still starting? I'm wondering if Sitton has been knocked down to second team RG based on Saturday's game.

[pbmax]

Did not hear or read that discussed.

[KYPack]

Wells has more abdominal troubles. With Clifton out with soreness the number one line at practice went like this:

Tony Moll, Daryn Colledge,Jason Spitz, Josh Sitton and Mark Tauscher.

Cliffy is expected to be back at LT, but most think Spitz will stay at center as Barbre and Colledge fight it out for LG.

[bobblehead]

I think this is the time they need to choose a line and go with it so they can build continuity.

[Pacopete4]

A good line will be the difference in this season I believe.. Arod gets time and he will develop and learn throughout the season... He doesn't and well... I'll just say good luck, cuz its hard enough being a QB in this league but one that needs to learn, needs help at the beginning

[mission]

Colledge starting?

Forget all yalls intelligent analysis on the situation...

but
(no offense)

We're fucked. :cry:

[Tarlam!]

You're all gonna call me crazy, but hey, I am Crazy Rat after all.

I think, this week is "do or die" for Colledge. Since being a round 2 pick, he has only ever insinuated he had big stuff inside him.

He's brainy, athletic but, so far, football autistic.

My personal belief is that he is replaceable with less erratic guys we have on the roster.

I bet even TT is calling for some continuity on the OL. That's why I think this is a make or break weak for Daryn.

[KYPack]

This could be the worst news I seen all week.

After drafting Allen Barbre in the fourth round last year, the Packers have been loathe to move him from left guard. He played at a small school (Missouri Southern State) and some scouts questioned how he would grasp a more complex system, so the Packers kept him in one place.

On Tuesday, three days after Daryn Colledge’s horrendous outing at left tackle in San Francisco, Barbre was moved to left tackle, his position in college. And the results were impressive, to say the least.

“He did a very nice job in the one-on-ones,” offensive line coach James Campen said. “We’re going to look at him for some flexibility also. We have a lot of guys who can move around.”

With Chad Clifton given another day of rest, the Packers worked Tony Moll at left tackle with the No. 1 offense backed by Barbre. Colledge, who gave up two sacks and two pressures to linebacker 49ers Tully Banta-Cain, worked primarily as the starting left guard because Jason Spitz is playing center for injured Scott Wells.

Barbre went 5-0 in the one-on-ones, including a 3-0 record at left tackle against Michael Montgomery.

The versatile Moll, who also had an impressive practice, has come on after a slow start.

“He’s starting to play with some of that energy,” Campen said. “Go after you. Bulldog-type stuff. Nice to see that. Starting to play with a lot of aggression.”


We've all been bitchin' about continuity. Now they move Barbre, arguably the best LG candidate, to LT? as a backup? We don't need depth, we need a starting line.

Help Help!

[ND72]

right now I still think our best line is Clifton, Colledge, Wells, Spitz, Tauscher...how ever, I'm starting to fall in love with the idea of Clifton, Colledge, Spitz, Barbre, Tauscher.

Our future is Colledge, Barbre, Spitz, Sitton, (Tauscher)? So I think we have 4-5 guys, including Wells, 6 if Giacomini pans out at all, that could be players for us.

[ND72]

He's brainy, athletic but, so far, football autistic.


:lol: I have GOT to remember this line...fits so many of my HS players.

[The Leaper]

Again...I'm not 100% sold on McCarthy or his staff. They rode the arm and experience of Favre last year...and got lucky that Grant showed up right about the time defenses started to guard against the pass more than the run.

Without Favre, I have an eerie feeling this offense is going to fall apart like a house of cards in 2008. Talent-wise, we are fine...but experience is going to deal us a cruel lesson. We just don't have enough experience on offense to weather the loss of an MVP caliber QB performance.

The merry-go-round on the OL isn't very convincing at this point.

[retailguy]

We've all been bitchin' about continuity. Now they move Barbre, arguably the best LG candidate, to LT? as a backup? We don't need depth, we need a starting line.

Help Help!


Don't worry KY.... McCarthy has a plan.... Just trust him. At least that's what I've been told a hundred times. If you say it enough, it'll help.

Lets watch the line against Denver. If it looks as bad as the 49ers, then maybe it'll be alright to show concern. In the teams defense, the pass blocking was OK in the Cincinnati game, run blocking wasn't so hot, but... well... I'll be watching this weekend.

[ND72]

We've all been bitchin' about continuity. Now they move Barbre, arguably the best LG candidate, to LT? as a backup? We don't need depth, we need a starting line.

Help Help!


Don't worry KY.... McCarthy has a plan.... Just trust him. At least that's what I've been told a hundred times. If you say it enough, it'll help.

Lets watch the line against Denver. If it looks as bad as the 49ers, then maybe it'll be alright to show concern. In the teams defense, the pass blocking was OK in the Cincinnati game, run blocking wasn't so hot, but... well... I'll be watching this weekend.


We've ran the ball in the pre-season?

[retailguy]

We've all been bitchin' about continuity. Now they move Barbre, arguably the best LG candidate, to LT? as a backup? We don't need depth, we need a starting line.

Help Help!


Don't worry KY.... McCarthy has a plan.... Just trust him. At least that's what I've been told a hundred times. If you say it enough, it'll help.

Lets watch the line against Denver. If it looks as bad as the 49ers, then maybe it'll be alright to show concern. In the teams defense, the pass blocking was OK in the Cincinnati game, run blocking wasn't so hot, but... well... I'll be watching this weekend.


We've ran the ball in the pre-season?


Didn't Rodgers scramble once or twice? :wink:

[KYPack]

right now I still think our best line is Clifton, Colledge, Wells, Spitz, Tauscher...how ever, I'm starting to fall in love with the idea of Clifton, Colledge, Spitz, Barbre, Tauscher.

Our future is Colledge, Barbre, Spitz, Sitton, (Tauscher)? So I think we have 4-5 guys, including Wells, 6 if Giacomini pans out at all, that could be players for us.

I'm with ya, ND.

I like your first line, except put Barbre for Colledge.

I don't see what Barbre has done to deserve being shuffled around. Every time I've seen him play, he at least holds his own. Sitton plays OK, also, but I can't say he has been head and shoulders above any of the other guards.

At this point the continuity we all crave is almost an impossibilty. This "new" Oline group is gonna be cohesive after 2 or 3 quarters together? I doubt it. Maybe they can get it together. I sure hope so.

I also think the injuries have saved Moll and Coston their jobs. No way they can cut a back-up center with Wells in the shape he's in. Moll has shown some pretty good versatility, so those two should make the final cut.

[run pMc]

The merry-go-round on the OL isn't very convincing at this point.


Agree. I'd like to see them settle on something ASAP. I think Favre could handle the swapping because of his experience. I'm far less convinced Rodgers will get rid of the ball quick enough to stay off IR when one of the players M3 plugs in the OL impersonates a turnstile.

I'm puzzled that they moved Spitz to LG for the SF game and didn't let Barbre and Colledge fight it out more for the starting gig at LG. I subscribe to the logic that moving a player on the line to plug someone else in actually weakens you at two spots. Is a Sitton-Spitz guard combo really better than Barbre-Spitz or Colledge-Spitz? Consider me skeptical.

Philbin and M3 need to figure out who their startes are, and I don't get the sense that they know. With an inexperienced QB, that's a troubling sign.

I know, I know...I hear the stuff about how Colledge should be a LT. I wonder if Barbre is more athletic than Colledge and thus might be a better long term candidate at LT. And if that is true, there still doesn't appear to be a solution at LG. (And yes, I think Coston's time is up.)

[RashanGary]

I love Barbre at LT. I think he's our most athletic lineman (more athletic than Colledge) and has the most natural ability to stop a speed rush. He also has the strength to man up against a bull rush. He's not a genius but at tackle it's more about winning the one on ones.


I could see Barbre being the LT of the future and I was hoping they'd play him there earlier.

[prsnfoto]

Maybe the fat umpa lumpa will get his next brainstorm idea and convert Clifton to a guard. The line is a fucking joke it has been since the day TT took over.

[mraynrand]

Spitz was bull rushed into oblivion at LG. Is he any better at RG? Do the Packers really see him starting at Guard. I would think backup center, possibly replacing Wells, if Wells can't go or is too small for Bears and Vikings DTs.

[ND72]

Maybe the fat umpa lumpa will get his next brainstorm idea and convert Clifton to a guard. The line is a fucking joke it has been since the day TT took over.

I think TT has done a good job with our OL. Rivera was getting old, and only played what? half a season in Dallas? Wahle has never been what he was here. we had to break it down, and build it back up. Funny part is everyone at the end of last season was talking about how awesome our OL had become....um, newsflash, we haven't lost anyone.

I don't understand what the coaching staff is really doing, but we should only improve from where we were last year.

[prsnfoto]

Maybe the fat umpa lumpa will get his next brainstorm idea and convert Clifton to a guard. The line is a fucking joke it has been since the day TT took over.

I think TT has done a good job with our OL. Rivera was getting old, and only played what? half a season in Dallas? Wahle has never been what he was here. we had to break it down, and build it back up. Funny part is everyone at the end of last season was talking about how awesome our OL had become....um, newsflash, we haven't lost anyone.

I don't understand what the coaching staff is really doing, but we should only improve from where we were last year.

I have no problem with letting Wahle and Rivera go but ya have to replace them within three years as far as them getting better my take is Grant and Brett made them look better than they are I guess we will find out soon enough.

[The Leaper]

Funny part is everyone at the end of last season was talking about how awesome our OL had become....um, newsflash, we haven't lost anyone.

Newsflash...we weren't awesome at the end of last season either.

[The Leaper]

I have no problem with letting Wahle and Rivera go but ya have to replace them within three years

I agree. To this point, Thompson has done precious little to provide CAPABLE STARTERS on the OL. He's damn lucky Clifton and Tauscher haven't broken down yet.

OL is an area Thompson gets failing grades in my book. His free agent choices to replace Wahle and Rivera were horrific flops, and none of the draft picks he's brought in have really proven themselves as consistent and capable after 1-2 seasons.

We are sitting on tons of cash...why not go out and acquire someone this offseason who has some proven ability on the OL? This is even more frustrating when you recognize that Thompson had been planning to hand the keys to the offense to Rodgers throughout the offseason. The kid needs a better group to rely on than we have.

[Gunakor]

Colledge starting?

Forget all yalls intelligent analysis on the situation...

but
(no offense)

We're fucked. :cry:


Colledge started last year, and the line improved as the season went along. I'll say it again, continuity is the biggest part of a successful line. This is terrific news IMO. The starters on the line are just what they were last season. IMO they should remain the starters as long as they are healthy, because the more these 5 guys play together the better the line will become. An offensive line should play as one, and parts are not so easily interchangeable. Kudos to MM for finally getting back to what was working last season. Hopefully he'll keep it that way all the way through January.

[ND72]

Maybe the fat umpa lumpa will get his next brainstorm idea and convert Clifton to a guard. The line is a fucking joke it has been since the day TT took over.

I think TT has done a good job with our OL. Rivera was getting old, and only played what? half a season in Dallas? Wahle has never been what he was here. we had to break it down, and build it back up. Funny part is everyone at the end of last season was talking about how awesome our OL had become....um, newsflash, we haven't lost anyone.

I don't understand what the coaching staff is really doing, but we should only improve from where we were last year.

I have no problem with letting Wahle and Rivera go but ya have to replace them within three years as far as them getting better my take is Grant and Brett made them look better than they are I guess we will find out soon enough.


gotta have holes to run through...

[retailguy]

Funny part is everyone at the end of last season was talking about how awesome our OL had become....um, newsflash, we haven't lost anyone.

Newsflash...we weren't awesome at the end of last season either.

Well, last season, I thought the pass blocking was fine, and while not "world beating" was adequate. Run blocking improved from abysmal to almost decent on occasion, but was never very good, and certainly not consistent.

I guess shaking things up has some merit to see if you missed something, but after watching the 1st quarter of the SF game, I think we can put that one to bed.

I've said for a long time that Colledge can't cut it as a guard. I've always thought he was a better tackle, but he's not Clifton talented either.

Spitz has been a disaster since they moved him to the LG spot.

About the only thing they haven't tried is moving Wells to guard. Seems to me that they did that for a while in his rookie year, I don't recall him performing that badly, though the knock on the guy has always been his short arms. But if they like Spitz at center.... maybe Wells can be a better guard than spitz can?

This year, the line is even more critical with Rodgers back there. He's got to have solid blocking to have any hope of being successful. Throwing him out behind a sub-par line would be just criminal, and would undoubtedly get him hurt.

[Guiness]

Wells has more abdominal troubles. With Clifton out with soreness the number one line at practice went like this:

Tony Moll, Daryn Colledge,Jason Spitz, Josh Sitton and Mark Tauscher.

Cliffy is expected to be back at LT, but most think Spitz will stay at center as Barbre and Colledge fight it out for LG.

Interesting to look at the shuffles they've made, and try to see what they have in mind...

I think Clifton would be playing if it was a regular season game - so whoever is in there is just a placeholder. Many thought early that Moll was gone this year, so that could be the case. With Colledge projected as our long term solution at LT, I'm surprised he wasn't getting the reps, so that tells me that they want him at LG for the time being, and will probably start there at the beginning of this season.

I'm also starting to wonder if they want Spitz at center this season. There are other backup centers that could be playing if they intended to have Spitz start at guard.

:cnf:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Depth chart updated 8/18 has Colledge (LG) and Spitz (RG) as the first team guards.

Oh my God, where is KY? In your face!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Colledge started last year, and the line improved as the season went along. I'll say it again, continuity is the biggest part of a successful line. This is terrific news IMO.

I don't know if I would call it "terrific news." I would spin it as they were unable to find an upgrade at guard. IT might work out OK.

[Gunakor]

Colledge started last year, and the line improved as the season went along. I'll say it again, continuity is the biggest part of a successful line. This is terrific news IMO.

I don't know if I would call it "terrific news." I would spin it as they were unable to find an upgrade at guard. IT might work out OK.

I call it terrific news because I'd rather see the same 5 guys as the starters year after year. There can be no continuity on the line if we keep putting new people on it. For example, the Taucher/Rivera/Flanagan/Whale/Clifton line that was so dominant in 2003 was together for 5 years as a starting unit leading up to that year. They weren't nearly as effective in 2002, and were even less effective in 2001. The longer they stayed together as a group the better they became.

I care less about each lineman's individual performance than I do about the line as a whole. IMO the line as a whole will be better served if we do not keep shuffling in new linemen into the starting unit. The line that finished up last year for us was getting the job done, both in the running game and the passing game. Individual performances aside, that became a very serviceable line as the season went on. Given additional time to work together as a group, that line will become better than serviceable.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Individual performances aside, that became a very serviceable line as the season went on. Given additional time to work together as a group, that line will become better than serviceable.

I don't know. I would say they were just OK.

Communication in the secondary is important too. But I wouldn't be in favor of keeping Collins over Rouse just to keep continuity. I would say if Rouse beat-out Collins, the upgrade would be cause for celebration.

[retailguy]

I care less about each lineman's individual performance than I do about the line as a whole. IMO the line as a whole will be better served if we do not keep shuffling in new linemen into the starting unit. The line that finished up last year for us was getting the job done, both in the running game and the passing game. Individual performances aside, that became a very serviceable line as the season went on. Given additional time to work together as a group, that line will become better than serviceable.

Yeah, I understand that. But, playing through your reasoning a bit, then we could also assume that had we left Adrian Klemm at LG, he'd be pretty good by now, and I'm not convinced that's the case.

I just think the message behind all this shuffling is that the coaches felt that things weren't working as well as they could, and it was unlikely it was going to get any better. Perhaps they thought they'd discover something new by trying something new.

I'm thinking now, that if they're switching back it might mean it's as good as it's going to get with the personnel we've got.

[Gunakor]

But, playing through your reasoning a bit, then we could also assume that had we left Adrian Klemm at LG, he'd be pretty good by now, and I'm not convinced that's the case.




I'm not either... but I am convinced that the line would be better now than it was 3 or 4 years ago. As for the guys we have, those starters have been together for 2 years and have improved significantly as they've gone along. There's no reason to believe that thier effectiveness won't continue to improve. Who knows, we might have another 2003 OL in a couple years if we don't hamper it's development by bringing in new guys. Again, it took 5 years together for that line to do what it did in 2003. And when that line was broken up, none of the guys who were on it had the same success afterwards. That's what I base my feelings twoard this one on.

[KYPack]

Depth chart updated 8/18 has Colledge (LG) and Spitz (RG) as the first team guards.

Oh my God, where is KY? In your face!

You got it Dog.

I am humbled.

But I'm not on my knees until the 1st game of the season.

You haven't "won" our little debate, you're just ahead right now.

With this Oline carousel, DC might not be the starting left guard.

They may give a turn at QB, for all I know.

[SnakeLH2006]

We've all been bitchin' about continuity. Now they move Barbre, arguably the best LG candidate, to LT? as a backup? We don't need depth, we need a starting line.

Help Help!


Don't worry KY.... McCarthy has a plan.... Just trust him. At least that's what I've been told a hundred times. If you say it enough, it'll help.

Lets watch the line against Denver. If it looks as bad as the 49ers, then maybe it'll be alright to show concern. In the teams defense, the pass blocking was OK in the Cincinnati game, run blocking wasn't so hot, but... well... I'll be watching this weekend.


We've ran the ball in the pre-season?


Didn't Rodgers scramble once or twice? :wink:

......into the D-Line. :roll:

[Tarlam!]

He's brainy, athletic but, so far, football autistic.


:lol: I have GOT to remember this line...fits so many of my HS players.

Cool, but I did make that statement with respect. Take it, use it, but, be respectful. I'm honoured.

[KYPack]

Depth chart updated 8/18 has Colledge (LG) and Spitz (RG) as the first team guards.

Oh my God, where is KY? In your face!

Also, our little debate was that you said Colledge would start over Sitton at RG. Colledge is now the starter at LG, a little topic we never argued over.

I also have no problem with Colledge or Barbre getting the LG gig, although I prefer Barbre in that spot.

[Carolina_Packer]

Clifton, Wells and Tausch are established, unless Wells is unable to go. If he's good to go, then we just need to settle the combo at the two guard spots. I'm assuming Spitz will be one of them as the most established recent draftee. I don't know what kind of camp DC is having or where his mindset is. Barbre and Sitton may still be too green, but Barbre could battle, I guess. It's nice to be able to mix/match, but it's also nice to at some point in camp pick a starting 5 (or remaining two guards as is the Pack's case). Harder to do with them having to put Spitz in at center. I think it will be Clifton, Colledge/Barbre, Wells, Spitz and Tauscher. Sitton may rotate in on different sets. Not sure where Tony Moll fits in.

[RashanGary]

Wells is not established as a starter according to McCarthy. Earlier this week McCarthy said Spitz was the best interior lineman last year. He said Spitz was guaranteed one spot and the other guys are battling for the other two.

I think it's either going to be Colledge, Spitz, Sitton or Colledge, Wells, Spitz depending on if they think Sitton is better than Wells or will be better with a little experience.

If Wells does start this year, I think it will be his last year starting (unless injuries happen). I think after next offseason Sitton will grab hold of the RG position, Spitz is better at OC and I think Colledge can be an OK guard and has no chance at playing LT.

[RashanGary]

I don't pay close enough attention to the interior line during the season. I just don't have time to watch 3 or 4 times but Wist did. Wist said Wells got regularly rag dolled. Then the Packers coaches came out early in the off season and said they were asking too much of him against bigger DT's. They gently said what Wist said blutly, "Wells gets rag dolled".


He might do things right, but he's just not good enough. If they think Sitton is good enough to start now and has a lot higher ceiling I could see Wells being the odd man out because he's the best he's going to be and that best is really bad in the run game and really average in the pass game.

[pbmax]

Replacing Wells with Spitz would explain the rush to see if Sitton could outperform Colledge or Barbre. Because you would need another starter and a new backup. But Philbin said after the Bengals game that Wells was the starter "unless he’s not the player we think he is. He’s played good football for us". That would seem to leave only an injury out.

But if McCarthy has guaranteed a spot inside only to Spitz, maybe they are concerned with Wells. However, the article I remember early in camp said they realized against larger DTs, they may have to scheme differently to get Wells some help, not find his replacement due to rag dolling.

And where is wist?

[Bretsky]

Not a good sign when for the most part none of us have any idea how many quality starters we have and who they are.

[RashanGary]

McCarthy quote, "I wouldn't say that. Jason has played all three positions since he's been here. He was our most consistent player last year. It's just really trying to find the right combination. It's competition. That's really all it is."

[RashanGary]

According to McCarthy Spitz was the most consistant player. He's had a nice off-season. There's no reason to think he's not at the top of their list still, although he's sucked ass at LG every time so I think that experiment is over. I think his best position is center and Sitton brings some size and nasty in there at RG so two positions would be upgraded if Sitton was that rare rookie ready from day one.


Wells might ultimatly prove to be more reliable than Sitton because Sitton is so young, but I think Wells days are numbered no matter what. He's slightly below average, but doesn't kill you. I think he's a big part of the reason our run game in the redzone and short yardage was so pathetic. YOu just can't have guys that weak in the run game and expect to get a push.

[Joemailman]

Not a good sign when for the most part none of us have any idea how many quality starters we have and who they are.

Or maybe it's a sign of depth. I think a guy like Colledge would be a sure-fire starter on a team like Detroit or Chicago. We're probably tougher on the Packers OL than a lot of people. Maybe we're still spoiled by those years when Wahle/Flanagan/Rivera were the best inside trio in the NFL.I heard a lot of concern about the OL this time last year, and the Packers had one of the top offenses in the NFL. Now I'm hearing the same concerns. I also think the days of Wells as the starting Center are numbered. Sitton, Spitz, and Colledge/Barbre look to be the future, and I think it's a bright future.

[bobblehead]

My hunch is this...and its only a hunch. We break camp just like we ended last season. Clifton, College, Wells, Spitz, Tauscher. I agree that spitz will be the center next year, based on what coaches have said and other factors, like sitton getting an offseason in. Babre is probably gonna get one more good offseason in to become the LG with College backing LG and LT. Wells will back up center and RG (actually spitz goes to rg and wells takes center, effectively backing up both). If Moll continues to impress now that he is healthy he probably backs up RT.

What this all means is that we keep:

Clifton, Tauscher, Wells, Spitz, Sitton, Babre, College, Moll, and Giocominni this year (unless Gio can't impress then Coston). We break camp just like last year ended barring injury ect. Next year we will really see what happens. I know they are moving everyone around right now in order to find a working combo, but every scenario leaves us with one big flaw....except the status quo which is not optimal, but best we can do this season.

[Bretsky]

Not a good sign when for the most part none of us have any idea how many quality starters we have and who they are.

Or maybe it's a sign of depth. I think a guy like Colledge would be a sure-fire starter on a team like Detroit or Chicago. We're probably tougher on the Packers OL than a lot of people. Maybe we're still spoiled by those years when Wahle/Flanagan/Rivera were the best inside trio in the NFL.I heard a lot of concern about the OL this time last year, and the Packers had one of the top offenses in the NFL. Now I'm hearing the same concerns. I also think the days of Wells as the starting Center are numbered. Sitton, Spitz, and Colledge/Barbre look to be the future, and I think it's a bright future.

We agree to disagree; I don't think Colledge is a sure fire starter on many teams. Our QB had an incredible run of good play last year while the OL struggled to figure out who to run block.

I agree we have depth; I'm just not sure how many are ready to start.

[bobblehead]

I think college is phenomenal when he is paying attention to the play at hand...its when his mind wanders to other things and a 325 lb. DL owns him that he has problems.

[RashanGary]

He's a solid zone guard if he can get his damn inconsistancies cleaned up but he's not athletic enough to play LT. He gets beat with speed. He gets beat with power. You want guys at LT who can defend speed and power both, not neither.

I think Colledge might be a long term good LG in our system, but I don't see how he can play LT. Every chance he's gotten he gets torched.

[KYPack]

I don't pay close enough attention to the interior line during the season. I just don't have time to watch 3 or 4 times but Wist did. Wist said Wells got regularly rag dolled. Then the Packers coaches came out early in the off season and said they were asking too much of him against bigger DT's. They gently said what Wist said blutly, "Wells gets rag dolled".


He might do things right, but he's just not good enough. If they think Sitton is good enough to start now and has a lot higher ceiling I could see Wells being the odd man out because he's the best he's going to be and that best is really bad in the run game and really average in the pass game.

Yeah, Wist would regularly say that and Wist was regularly wrong. Go back in the forum and look at Wist's comments. Most of the time, I'd refute his assertions. Scott is small for tht position and has short arms. But he battles his ass off and never gives up.

I've seen him hold his own against the best. There was a game against the Vikes in which Scott held the point against those fat ass Williams boys and helped keep us in the game. He kept us in with hustle and great line calls and doubling at the right time. So much so, that 'ol 4 won us the game at crunch time. Guys make those comments 'cause they assume they are true, not because they watch what's happening.

This year, it's a different story. Scott's hurt and hurt badly. An abdominal injury seriously hampers any NFL player. Multiply that by 10 for a center. I have to wonder if Scott will be effective at any time this season. We may well have to go with Spitz as the center.

[Joemailman]

Yep, Wells looked bad Saturday night. He even had 2 bad snaps in shotgun formation, and I wonder if that was due to the injury. I admire Wells for his tenacity. However, I'm thinking the line is probably better with Spitz in there.

[RashanGary]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I trust Wists opinions. He may be pessemistic and wrong on Barnett (Barnett did do a 180 when Hawk got here) but he's been right on a lot of things.


He pays attention to line play. He's not even my big source though. I'm just remembering his comments and crediting him for what I read into the coaches talk (and actions) now.


Based on how I read the situation and the tone and context of the coaches comments over the last few months I'd say they're not sold on WElls and they know what they have so I'd say what he is, isn't enough for them. He may hold his job now, but my guess is next year it will be gone if not this year (although a rookie starting when he doesn't have to is a long shot). I was dead wrong on Ruvell Martin though, so hey, maybe Wells comes out and proves me wrong. I hope he does.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wells is not established as a starter according to McCarthy. Earlier this week McCarthy said Spitz was the best interior lineman last year.

I think you misread both of these. McCarthy has said Wells hasn't established himself, but more because he hasn't been healthy. Until he regains his health, he won't be starting. The second one is coachspeak... depending on when and how they are asked. I think after the season the coaches generally said Wells graded highest among the OL. Spitz was their most consistent OG.

[pbmax]

Its not the fairest way to judge, but Wells has had his fair share of trouble with the bigger of the two Williams. I think that was the thrust of the article JH was referring to. That they couldn't leave him alone, they had to double team, combo or wham block the galoot. The game at Lambeau had the Packers running plays they had not run often at that point of the season and they were running wide, sealing the middle from pursuit and attacking the LB or safety.

That probably works better on Pat than Kevin, who is amazingly quick.

In and of itself, that isn't a reason to replace him, unless Spitz is close to his equal or the new guard is a step up. Neither seems to be true as of now. And most of the Viking's opponents struggle with the two. And you are right, it might only be injury that forces him out now.

I still take it as a positive that Sitton forced his way into the lineup, even if he has to go back to 2nd. My only concern is the same I mentioned above, that Sitton was elevated because they didn't like their options with Colledge/Barbre.


Yeah, Wist would regularly say that and Wist was regularly wrong. Go back in the forum and look at Wist's comments. Most of the time, I'd refute his assertions. Scott is small for tht position and has short arms. But he battles his ass off and never gives up.

I've seen him hold his own against the best. There was a game against the Vikes in which Scott held the point against those fat ass Williams boys and helped keep us in the game. He kept us in with hustle and great line calls and doubling at the right time. So much so, that 'ol 4 won us the game at crunch time. Guys make those comments 'cause they assume they are true, not because they watch what's happening.

This year, it's a different story. Scott's hurt and hurt badly. An abdominal injury seriously hampers any NFL player. Multiply that by 10 for a center. I have to wonder if Scott will be effective at any time this season. We may well have to go with Spitz as the center.

[pbmax]

Article on not asking Wells to do too much, from McGinn's preseason position breakdown:

Position by Position: Offensive Line (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=775319)


Spitz also started three games for an injured Scott Wells and fared so well that Campen says he might be an even better center.

Pound for pound, Wells is the strongest of the group, according to Campen. He’s also committed, bright, quick and eager for any challenge. Now the Packers are looking at ways to prevent the undersized Wells from getting beaten by behemoths in the run game.

“Maybe we asked him to do too much,” Campen said. “Maybe at times reaching a 380-pound guy is not as realistic as we thought it could be. We’ve done some things that maybe we can help him out a little bit.”

[KYPack]

Its not the fairest way to judge, but Wells has had his fair share of trouble with the bigger of the two Williams. I think that was the thrust of the article JH was referring to. That they couldn't leave him alone, they had to double team, combo or wham block the galoot. The game at Lambeau had the Packers running plays they had not run often at that point of the season and they were running wide, sealing the middle from pursuit and attacking the LB or safety.



Agreed. Hell, you have to adjust with those two fatass dancing bears. My point is Wellls has never had as much troubles with 'em as the guards have had over the last 3 seasons.

Scott Wells has been our best interior lineman over those last three years. Now, it looks like his run may be over. I don't see him bouncing back with an abdominal strain. Those things keep cropping up and may screw up his entire season.

Then it's Sitton at RG, Spitz at center, and Barbre/Colledge at LG. From the looks of it, Colledge will be the LG at least in the early going.

(Has to edit this. I meant Barbre/Colledge at LG. Man, I wish we'd find a set lineup.)

[pbmax]

If his injury carries over, I think you've got it. I wonder what has held Barbre back? Is it picking up a new position? That Wonderlic score wasn't anything to swoon over. I understand that Colledge might never be a starting caliber LT, but I wish we'd hit on one of these guys on the first try instead of waiting for three years to figure it out. Barbre doesn't appear to have beaten Colledge out, but he is obviously behind Spitz and possibly Sitton. And unless he sees the field with the ones, he won't be at guard again (since he would backup Clifton at Denver with the 2s) until very late.

I just wish I knew why some lineman take so long to figure out a pro position. Clifton has been LT since he was drafted. Tauscher was always just about to move to guard except Dotson's back went out. Wahle flopped around and so did Rivera (both guard pos). Leonard Davis was a high pick but didn't flourish until he was a guard, I believe. Colledge gets moved as does Spitz. But there appears to be no question Sitton is a guard.

Its like watching chess but not knowing the rules or how the pieces should move. Looks interesting, but we're baffled anyway. Maybe we need a OLineman DNA test rather than an HGH blood test. :lol:


Hell, you have to adjust with those two fatass dancing bears. My point is Wellls has never had as much troubles with 'em as the guards have had over the last 3 seasons.

Scott Wells has been our best interior lineman over those last three years. Now, it looks like his run may be over. I don't see him bouncing back with an abdominal strain. Those things keep cropping up and may screw up his entire season.

Then it's Sitton at RG, Spitz at center, and Barbre/Colledge at RG. From the looks of it, Colledge will be the LG at least in the early going.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Depth chart updated 8/18 has Colledge (LG) and Spitz (RG) as the first team guards.

Oh my God, where is KY? In your face!

Also, our little debate was that you said Colledge would start over Sitton at RG. Colledge is now the starter at LG, a little topic we never argued over.

I suggested the line would be exactly the way it is now, obviously Colledge is better suited to LG and Spitz to RG.

But honestly, I don't have a strong sense of what is going to happen. I only picked Colledge because experience counts a lot.

Even though Colledge is listed as a starter for the moment, I don't think it is unthinkable that he would be a surprise cut! That's right. I wonder if his promotion to a starter is so the coaches can get a hard look at him. It's happened before that guards have had stints as starters in the preseason and been gone in September. Colledge is in his third year, and he's still floundering far too much.

[KYPack]

Depth chart updated 8/18 has Colledge (LG) and Spitz (RG) as the first team guards.

Oh my God, where is KY? In your face!

Also, our little debate was that you said Colledge would start over Sitton at RG. Colledge is now the starter at LG, a little topic we never argued over.

I suggested the line would be exactly the way it is now, obviously Colledge is better suited to LG and Spitz to RG.

But honestly, I don't have a strong sense of what is going to happen. I only picked Colledge because experience counts a lot.

Even though Colledge is listed as a starter for the moment, I don't think it is unthinkable that he would be a surprise cut! That's right. I wonder if his promotion to a starter is so the coaches can get a hard look at him. It's happened before that guards have had stints as starters in the preseason and been gone in September. Colledge is in his third year, and he's still floundering far too much.

Who is counting?

But...

This was your quote

"I hope College starts in place of Sitton so I can rub it in to the OL master, KY.

Actually, I'm not sure I'm quite that spiteful. College doesn't look good at guard, at least Sitton has upside."

I didn't think College would start in place of Sitton because Sitton is this year's "chosen one". They've moved everyone everywhere and shuffled the whole interior line except Sitton. He HAS to be the the RG, I guess. He's played well, but he's the only interior guy that has been allowed to play a constant position.

[run pMc]

If Wells is healthy he's the starter at C this year.
Next year might be different...I could see Spitz taking over at C if they can figure out the rest of the line. Those OT's have some miles on them.

Lots of OLinemen have trouble with the Willams boys...and C is historically the weak spot on the OL. Nobody likes to see your C get rag dolled; I'm sure it happens to others besides Wells. M3 would be smart to get Wells some help on a few snaps.

Who does M3 start at RG and LG? I'm not sold on Sitton, so (assuming Wells is healthy) I think it's Spitz and Colledge in Week 1.

Scenario 2: The injury to Wells is worse than they're letting on and he goes on IR, Spitz take over at C, and Sitton and Colledge at G, with Colledge losing his focus (and his job) to Barbre at some point in the season.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"I hope College starts in place of Sitton so I can rub it in to the OL master, KY."

OK, but I also listed the final O-line positions somewhere. I'm just trying to insult you in a pithy manner here, to increase the sting, deepen your humiliation.


I didn't think College would start in place of Sitton because Sitton is this year's "chosen one". They've moved everyone everywhere and shuffled the whole interior line except Sitton. He HAS to be the the RG, I guess. He's played well, but he's the only interior guy that has been allowed to play a constant position.

I agree with you, I think and hope that Sitton will be the starter after the dust settles. I only formed the Daryn College Fan Club because you sounded too sure about things, I really believe it is all unpredictable.

[KYPack]

"I hope College starts in place of Sitton so I can rub it in to the OL master, KY."

OK, but I also listed the final O-line positions somewhere. I'm just trying to insult you in a pithy manner here, to increase the sting, deepen your humiliation.


I didn't think College would start in place of Sitton because Sitton is this year's "chosen one". They've moved everyone everywhere and shuffled the whole interior line except Sitton. He HAS to be the the RG, I guess. He's played well, but he's the only interior guy that has been allowed to play a constant position.

I agree with you, I think and hope that Sitton will be the starter after the dust settles. I only formed the Daryn College Fan Club because you sounded too sure about things, I really believe it is all unpredictable.

OK Doggie. Maybe I was cocky. I'll admit to half stung and half humiliated. Probably nobody can predict what the final line will be. Just want 5 guys to play their way into jobs and gel as a line.


I'll tell ya what pissed me off. Why did they move Spitz to LG for the SF game? Colledge and Barbe had earned the right to a shoot-off for the LG job. Instead they move Spitz to that spot, who got hammered.

Then they move Barbre to LT 'cause Colledge did a shit job at LT in the SF game? I don't get it. I think DC and Barbre should split the reps at LG for the last games and may the best guard win.

I wasn't being cocky. I'm confused as the rest of the fans.

[Noodle]

I'm bumming big time about the Wells injury. With a new qb, you want your center to be rock solid at line calls -- they can really save a qb's hinder. Wells is pretty dang good at this, and its a skill that just takes experience, something that Spitz ain't gonna have for a while.

Almost as bumming for me is the prospect of another year with College at guard. My impression is that the dude just does not have the ability to anchor on bull rushes by massive DTs, leading to crushed pockets and a jittery Arod.

Has anyone seen something out of College that suggests to you that he can be a stout interior lineman? I have not, and as such, I don't know why the Pack is wasting time with him there. Unless they have a secret plan to stuff a half-ton sea anchor down his trousers.

[Cleft Crusty]

Has anyone seen something out of College that suggests to you that he can be a stout interior lineman? I have not, and as such, I don't know why the Pack is wasting time with him there. Unless they have a secret plan to stuff a half-ton sea anchor down his trousers.

I've watched tape on the guy, Noodle, and he's not a lost cause. With the ZBS the Packers use, Colledge is effective at the cut back blocks, running to the right behind Tauscher. He struggles in short yardage situations, because he seems to have poor push. Pass pro is iffy. Stout he is not, but he is serviceable. But your concern is not without reason. The Packers ought to have a better option at this point, and it appears they just don't. Perhaps if Spitz and Sitton get up to speed fast, the Packers might be able to replace Colledge as the season progresses, but right now, it seems as though there is too much change along the line to put in, say Barbre.

[RashanGary]

Wells is not established as a starter according to McCarthy. Earlier this week McCarthy said Spitz was the best interior lineman last year.

I think you misread both of these. McCarthy has said Wells hasn't established himself, but more because he hasn't been healthy. Until he regains his health, he won't be starting. The second one is coachspeak... depending on when and how they are asked. I think after the season the coaches generally said Wells graded highest among the OL. Spitz was their most consistent OG.

you must have missed teh JS article early in the offseason. They had Spitz graded ahead of Wells based on Wells having more bad run and pass plays. IT would match perfectly well with McCarthy's comments that there are 5 guys competing for 2 spots and Spitz was last years most consistant.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think the way to look at it is this: they have one guy in the interior line that they are fully confident in, Spitz. Wells has some shortcomings at center, does some things very well. The rest of the players are about the same and iffy.

[3irty1]

I feel like there are so many young guys who all seem to have so much potential that at least one more guy will establish himself like Spitz did last year.

[mraynrand]

I think the way to look at it is this: they have one guy in the interior line that they are fully confident in, Spitz. Wells has some shortcomings at center, does some things very well. The rest of the players are about the same and iffy.

What do you mean about Spitz? They feel confident in him as back up and/or starting center? If you mean guard, I doubt it - or at least they have to be worried following that horrible outing in SF. Is it currently Clifton, College, Spitz, Sitton, Tauscher? Is that the opening day line?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I mean that, among the guards and centers, Spitz is at top of the shit pile. Followed by Wells.

Who else is better?

[retailguy]

I mean that, among the guards and centers, Spitz is at top of the shit pile. Followed by Wells.

Who else is better?

I'm not sure that Spitz is still at the top of the pile, but I guess that depends on whether he had a "one game abberation" or if this continues.

I do think they like him better at center than guard. The question becomes then do they like him better than Wells at center, and, do they have a guard that they like as well as Spitz?

Seemingly, the answer is no to at least the last part of the question, and perhaps is no to the first part too, but that seems less clear.

[RashanGary]

Spitz has been a good RG. He was bad at LG last year and bad at LG now. At RG and OC, I think he's the best and most consistant interior lineman.

If I had to guess I'd say Colledge, Wells and Spitz start this year when Wells gets healthy. After this year, I think Wells days are done and Colledges days as a starter might be too if he can't find consistancy. I see Spitz as a guy who will be here for a long time. I think Sitton might be another. If Colledge gets more consistant I think he could too. Wells seems like a guy who's not good enough no matter what he does but I thought that of Ruvell and he proved me wrong so hopefully Wells still has some upside that we havn't seen.

[Noodle]

I've watched tape on the guy, Noodle, and he's not a lost cause. With the ZBS the Packers use, Colledge is effective at the cut back blocks, running to the right behind Tauscher. He struggles in short yardage situations, because he seems to have poor push. Pass pro is iffy. Stout he is not, but he is serviceable. But your concern is not without reason. The Packers ought to have a better option at this point, and it appears they just don't. Perhaps if Spitz and Sitton get up to speed fast, the Packers might be able to replace Colledge as the season progresses, but right now, it seems as though there is too much change along the line to put in, say Barbre.

This is good analysis.

I don't claim to have knowledge superior to other folks or the coaches, but I do know what I see. I don't at this point see College as a long term occupant of the position, and I think one of his bigger weaknesses (allowing the inside pocket to get pushed back in the qb's face) is especially bad given Arod's inexperience.