Salary Cap Managment (Andrew Brandt vs. Russ Ball)

[SnakeLH2006]

Am I not the only one (as there has been no posting/comments that I remember recently) that is wondering..

and possibly worried that we lost Andrew Brandt (one of the most underrated behind the scenes cap techs in recent Packer history) to Russ Ball as our cap technician? I read a post recently and was gonna go into detail, but thought hey, this a is good topic for Packer nuts aka Rats to discuss.

Brandt had been doing an AWESOME job with Packer friendly contracts for the past decade (Driver, Kampman, Al Harris, Woodson, Taucher, Clifton, Barnett, etc. over the past couple of years for players to relock/not lose in a small market in Green Bay.) He left with little fanfare in a supposd dispute with TT (not bashing him as he's done great job drafting/assembling a lot of talent).

They hired Russ Ball (a MM3 recruit from his NO stint without a ton of experience in the field) and have negotiated IMO and many other Rat posters inflated contracts for Poppinga (not much of a market for) and Grant (gave him huge money for a dude with no way to get to FA for at least 3 more years.....$30 million over 4 years.....taking away one yes ONE year of FA to pay him in the top five in the NFL for RB's)??

No diss on Poppinga as he'll be OK, as the market rises EVERY year, and I love Grant, but he DOES NOT deserve to paid in that echelon of backs YET.

I think we may miss Brandt more, not in the short term, but after Ball's first two, and his last two contracts, as peeps bitch about TT, but it is really Russ Ball who has overpaid for 2 players that in Poppinga's case (IMO is not worth the money, and in Grant's case, should have had more incentives, not major money (he get's paid $20 million over those 4 years if he makes the team regardless if he tears it up).

Did a bit of research, and maybe this is just 2 contracts, but I hope this does not bode long-term negative ramifications as Brandt did a hella good job in keeping the contracts reasonable for all parties (Packers and the players).

Thoughts?

[MJZiggy]

Andrew Brandt was not underrated. Everyone knew what a phenomenal job he did for us, but he didn't leave in a dispute with Ted Thompson. He left because the Board of Directors chose Mark Murphy over him to be the team President. He wanted that job and when he didn't get it felt like he had become stagnant and wanted to move in a different direction.

As to Ball, the dude has done 2 contracts and the rookies. I think the issue with Grant was they just wanted him in camp and were likely to throw a few things at him they might not have otherwise just to get him there. Not a great precedent, but the dude was the entire spark in our running game last year. Maybe they were just thinking about where they were without him...

[GBRulz]

Of course Brandt isn't going to dog on TT to the public. In the position he was in, you don't want to burn bridges.

Brandt left because of TT. Under Harlan, he was fully in control of player negotiations, but TT came and was very involved in this and wanted to have the final say. I hear lots of rumors about things just like anyone else around here, but I've heard this from several reliable people so I do believe it's a fact.

Snake, I agree....Brandt may have been an asshole (personal reasons only for saying that) but the guy did his job well, no doubt about it. I also believe it's too early to really judge what kind of job the noob is doing.

[bobblehead]

Of course Brandt isn't going to dog on TT to the public. In the position he was in, you don't want to burn bridges.

Brandt left because of TT. Under Harlan, he was fully in control of player negotiations, but TT came and was very involved in this and wanted to have the final say. I hear lots of rumors about things just like anyone else around here, but I've heard this from several reliable people so I do believe it's a fact.

Snake, I agree....Brandt may have been an asshole (personal reasons only for saying that) but the guy did his job well, no doubt about it. I also believe it's too early to really judge what kind of job the noob is doing.

I agree with most of your post, but if TT is the one who is building the team, he should be the one with the final say on a contract. TT is the guy who judges just how good a talent someone is, not brandt and not ball, TT is the guy who will be fired if too many average players get big contracts.

I must admit ignorance on this, but how does it work with most teams?? I would think the GM is very involved in most salary negotiations.

[KYPack]

Man, this is one sharp forum. Brandt was gone when TT began to "look over his shoulder" and his power move for the Presidency fell short.

Brandt was a sharp cookie, but he never did anything that 20 or so other competent cap wizards couldn't of done. The deals Ball signed look OK.

As far as losing Brandt, it might be addition by subtraction by not having his massive ego in the corporation anymore.

[pbmax]

You can't judge Grant's contract on the total possible number. There is a tremendous level of protection built in to that contract for the Packers. Grant cannot trigger each year's escalators unless he hits a target in each of the previous years.

Its just as likely this is a two year deal for 8.5 million than the scenario you used.

[GBRulz]

You do bring up some valid points, bobblehead. I really don't know the chain of command in how salary cap negotiators work with most teams. I just know that Harlan was a very "hands off" guy when it came to his personnel. He gave them a job to do and fully trusted them to do it. He was more involved in public relations and having a relationship with the fans. Maybe that is what Brandt didn't like about TT, as he wasn't used to having someone be so involved with the negotiations.

[BZnDallas]

You can't judge Grant's contract on the total possible number. There is a tremendous level of protection built in to that contract for the Packers. Grant cannot trigger each year's escalators unless he hits a target in each of the previous years.

Its just as likely this is a two year deal for 8.5 million on the scenario you used.

i agree... but i'd love to see grant come close to getting the total number... if he does he will be a hell of a player and IMO no doubt help in getting us to the big dance... 11 days and counting (15 for the Green and Gold)!!

[pbmax]

It breaks down mainly into one of two scenarios. One, the GM/Owner has a football background (or thinks he does). In these cases, the Cap Guy usually has a little more latitude overall and has to report to someone in the Administration who handles the budget. The Cap number is very real for teams from a roster standpoint, but from an actual cash standpoint its almost meaningless.

For teams like the Jets or Saints, the GM is from the cap side of the business. This creates more interesting scenarios between GM and cap guy. Ball's move was seen as a step toward more responsibility since he was going from Cap GM (Loomis) to Scout GM (T2). Since he was hired, Ball has been promoted to Vice President of Something so he is on Murphy's Executive Team (not the same as the Exec Committee of the Packers' Board).

I hadn't heard what GB heard about T2 and Brandt being at odds other than the blurb about ego when the team announced his departure, but its clear he was on a tighter budget for free agents with T2 than Sherman. But Sherman had the same authority as T2 over who to pursue and who to sign. I do remember the reporting structure changed when T2 came on board and I do think Brandt went from reporting to Harlan to reporting to T2.


I agree with most of your post, but if TT is the one who is building the team, he should be the one with the final say on a contract. TT is the guy who judges just how good a talent someone is, not brandt and not ball, TT is the guy who will be fired if too many average players get big contracts.

I must admit ignorance on this, but how does it work with most teams?? I would think the GM is very involved in most salary negotiations.

[Partial]

I think Andy Brandt did a really good job, and I'm sure the new guy will do just fine. It's not rocket science anymore - the tricks to beat the cap are well known and publically available with ESPN's discussions of contracts, etc.

I'm not at all worried about them taking a step down in that regard. I do wonder if they should have made a better effort to keep a bright mind like Brandt. Can't deny he is extremely intelligent.

[falco]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

[Packgator]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

Perhaps the other teams are not "obviously smarter than us" as Brandt is not currently employed by any NFL team. He is a teacher and lecturer at a couple different universities. I think he see's himself as more than just a salary cap guy. Which is probably one of the main reasons he is no longer with the Packers.

[falco]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

Perhaps the other teams are not "obviously smarter than us" as Brandt is not currently employed by any NFL team. He is a teacher and lecturer at a couple different universities. I think he see's himself as more than just a salary cap guy. Which is probably one of the main reasons he is no longer with the Packers.

perhaps the eye-roll did not adequately convey my sarcasm

[Partial]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

Maybe he is taking a break? It's ignorant to make an assumption as to why he isn't employed by the NFL any longer. None of us have any idea.

[falco]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

Maybe he is taking a break? It's ignorant to make an assumption as to why he isn't employed by the NFL any longer. None of us have any idea.

pfft maybe he is my cousin and i talk to him all the time.... its ignorant for you to assume that I don't have inside information on the topic

[SnakeLH2006]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

Maybe he is taking a break? It's ignorant to make an assumption as to why he isn't employed by the NFL any longer. None of us have any idea.

pfft maybe he is my cousin and i talk to him all the time.... its ignorant for you to assume that I don't have inside information on the topic

Have you been reading Joe Arrigo's blogs again? :shock:

[Partial]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

Maybe he is taking a break? It's ignorant to make an assumption as to why he isn't employed by the NFL any longer. None of us have any idea.

pfft maybe he is my cousin and i talk to him all the time.... its ignorant for you to assume that I don't have inside information on the topic

Ok. Seem's awfully childish to me, but whatever.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

we never should have let brandt go, i can't remember what team picked him up but obviously they were smarter than us...

:roll:

Maybe he is taking a break? It's ignorant to make an assumption as to why he isn't employed by the NFL any longer. None of us have any idea.

pfft maybe he is my cousin and i talk to him all the time.... its ignorant for you to assume that I don't have inside information on the topic

Ok. Seem's awfully childish to me, but whatever.

well, if anyone knows childish it would be you.

[Noodle]

Interesting topic. Without knowing crap (but when has that stopped me or anyone else on this board), I'm guessing Brandt had much more discretion on structuring contracts when Shermy was both GM and HC. No way Shermy could sweat the details, so Brandt got to be the man.

But while I've been a fan of Brandt's it's not like everything he did was gold. I'm guessing he had something to do with the past Packer practice of back-loading the crap out of contracts, leading to situations like having to let Wahl go.

Remeber, we were living close to the cap edge under the Shermy/Brandt era. Now we have a lot more room, though I for one do not think that is a good thing.

Whoever is in charge, I wish we could get some deals done sooner. We all knew Grant was coming back, and it did no one -- no one -- any good to have him out of camp. I'd rather be a couple mil closer to the cap with my no. 1 RB signed, happy, and in camp, than to stretch it out to save a few bucks.

[Partial]

Interesting topic. Without knowing crap (but when has that stopped me or anyone else on this board), I'm guessing Brandt had much more discretion on structuring contracts when Shermy was both GM and HC. No way Shermy could sweat the details, so Brandt got to be the man.

But while I've been a fan of Brandt's it's not like everything he did was gold. I'm guessing he had something to do with the past Packer practice of back-loading the crap out of contracts, leading to situations like having to let Wahl go.

Remeber, we were living close to the cap edge under the Shermy/Brandt era. Now we have a lot more room, though I for one do not think that is a good thing.

Whoever is in charge, I wish we could get some deals done sooner. We all knew Grant was coming back, and it did no one -- no one -- any good to have him out of camp. I'd rather be a couple mil closer to the cap with my no. 1 RB signed, happy, and in camp, than to stretch it out to save a few bucks.

This is a really good posts. Two very valid points.

[bobblehead]

I disagree about grant. You always gotta look at how a contract affects a team as well as the camp. If they get too carried away I almost garauntee some other player feels disrespected and starts grousing.

[NewsBruin]

It depends on what kind of effect you want on the team. I don't think we need a bunch of players bowing and scraping in hopes that the Contract Extension Fairy might just leave 3 extra years under their pillows while they're asleep. Hell, I don't think it's remotely realistic. Maybe it leads to better chemistry in the lockerroom and confidence on the field if they see their teammates get a fair starting point, rather than lowballed at negotiation time.

Grant performed well, and since it was for a short time, he has a contract with some up-front cash, base-level security, challenging incentives, and few (if any) guaranteed dollars. If he performs well enough to earn his incentives, then I'm satisfied with that salary. If he's mediocre, he doesn't get paid much. If he out-and-out sucks or becomes a headcase, we can cut him without any salary-cap obligations beyond that week. Can't get much better than that for our side.

I'll have to pull up other RB's salaries, but I don't think Grant got anything near top-five money on the low end of his contract, possibly not even top five for this offseason. He does have the opportunity to get more cash if he rushes for more yards than anyone rushed for in 2007.

If another player demands better money, then let him show his numbers. The Packers can listen and weigh the facts without being obligated to do a darn thing for mediocre production.

It's a weird thing on this board: A lot of us love the Packers, but as cheaply as possible. It's like we pride ourselves on shorting players or holding them hostage to our loyalty. A big criticism about a middle-high-profile deal to Grant was that we didn't "have" to offer it to him, not whether it was deserved, or even whether it was the right thing, but what could the Packers get away with. That philosophy, if extended to the whole roster, is going to have a worse effect on the pro athletes we're trying to attract and keep. Shoot, of all the dumbass things my employer does, at least it doesn't try to snow me that I'm only loyal if I accept basement-level deals and consider myself lucky to have my job.

I think we're better off giving a guy a fair deal, and doing it early enough to not be a distraction, even when we don't "have" to. I think for the folks who are nursing more injuries than they let on and know they're always one blown knee or concussion away from never playing another down, loyalty is shown in the contract offers.