Wynn Cut, Harrell on Pup List

[The Gunshooter]

http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2008/08/25/2/

[LL2]

I'm starting to get nervous about this season and it has nothing to do with Arod starting his first season. It has to do with all the injured and banged up players on the OL and DL.

[mmmdk]

Wynn is talented but backfield is solid in Green Bay; good call by Packers. Harrell is gonna be MIA all season - gut feeling.

[oregonpackfan]

Francies was expected. Wynn was the casualty of a solid backfield and a questionable work ethic.

I still shake my head in disgust re: Justin Harrell. What a waste of a #1 draft pick.

[retailguy]

Francies was expected. Wynn was the casualty of a solid backfield and a questionable work ethic.

I still shake my head in disgust re: Justin Harrell. What a waste of a #1 draft pick.

Maybe Harrell thinks he a WR and won't mature until the 3rd season?

While he's starting to look like a bust, it's probably too soon to start vocalizing it yet. What I'm curious about is the Williams trade. There were already signs that Harrell was not fulfilling expectations, yet we traded the guy anyhow.

While Williams had his faults, I do think that he was worth keeping around on the franchise tag for another year. I kind of agree with those who say his contract with Cleveland is too rich, but the tag for a year would've been a fairly good deal for Green Bay. I'd certainly feel better about our DL right now, and suspect that most others would as well.

[Merlin]

I was a little surprised by Wynn being let go this soon although we are fairly deep at running back so we knew someone had to go and probably one or two more before it's all said and done. Francis again plays at a position we are deep at and there are clearly more talented guys in front of him. Justin Harrell, no surprise that he now can't play until week 7 if at all. If this were Cledius Hunt everyone would be calling for him to be cut, but for whatever reason everyone still has high hopes that Harrell can contribute. Personally I think the guy is a bust primarily becaue he hasn't been healthy since his Junior year at college (and I don't think he played every game that year, I could be wrong). At the very least he for all intents and purposes didn't play his senior year, barely played last year, and probably won't play this year. That's 3 seasons of football and you don't get better when you don't play. We need to get him healthy, on the roster, then cut him before we get stuck with the injury payments...

[Badgerinmaine]

Lumpkin's strong performance and Wynn's inability to stay healthy made that move pretty much inevitable--but I'll bet someone else gives Wynn a look.

[Lurker64]

I agree that it's too early to call Harrell a bust, if he comes on next year and plays like a pro bowler all will be forgiven. Still, I'm increasingly convinced that the guy is an idiot.

About the Corey Williams trade, I don't know if having him around would really make that big a difference. Corey Williams was valuable as an inside pass rusher, but he was an average to mediocre run-stopper. In terms of stopping the run, he was about the equal of Cole, though Cole was slightly more consistent. I don't think the "resign Cole" bloc was quite so vocal this offseason. Corey Williams is an ideal 3-4 DE, and a pass rushing DT in the 4-3 but what we really need now is guys who will stop the run, and that's not Williams. The thing that bugs me most about the Williams trade is not that we traded him, and not what we got for him, but that we wasted that pick.

[cpk1994]

I was a little surprised by Wynn being let go this soon although we are fairly deep at running back so we knew someone had to go and probably one or two more before it's all said and done. Francis again plays at a position we are deep at and there are clearly more talented guys in front of him. Justin Harrell, no surprise that he now can't play until week 7 if at all. If this were Cledius Hunt everyone would be calling for him to be cut, but for whatever reason everyone still has high hopes that Harrell can contribute. Personally I think the guy is a bust primarily becaue he hasn't been healthy since his Junior year at college (and I don't think he played every game that year, I could be wrong). At the very least he for all intents and purposes didn't play his senior year, barely played last year, and probably won't play this year. That's 3 seasons of football and you don't get better when you don't play. We need to get him healthy, on the roster, then cut him before we get stuck with the injury payments...Comparing Cleditus Hunt to Justin Harrel is plain idotic. This is only Harrel's second year. Thats why people are stilling cutting him a little slack. Hunt, you seem tyo forget, had been in the league several seasons and was given a fat contract. He then proceded to stink up the joint. People wanted Hunt gone becuase he wasn't coming close to the prduction expected from the contract given him. Harrel is still basically a rookie.If yu can't see that is why some people still have hope for Harrell, then you truely are blind.

[HarveyWallbangers]

While Williams had his faults, I do think that he was worth keeping around on the franchise tag for another year. I kind of agree with those who say his contract with Cleveland is too rich, but the tag for a year would've been a fairly good deal for Green Bay. I'd certainly feel better about our DL right now, and suspect that most others would as well.

Hindsight is 20/20. There weren't many people, not even Bretsky, who didn't like the trade at the time.

http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=11454

[Guiness]

SHOCKED at the Wynn cut. Not.
That writing was so clear on the wall is was probably written in neon.

The Williams trade is tough to judge. A 2nd rounder was probably as good as they were going to get for him if they HAD to trade him, so TT got what value he could. I would also have preferred to see him play under the franchise tag, but he was very unhappy with that, and who knows how well he would've performed. Would he have sulked, or sucked it up and played like a pro? They must've thought he'd do the former, or they would have kept him.

[Tarlam!]

The thing that bugs me most about the Williams trade is not that we traded him, and not what we got for him, but that we wasted that pick.

OK, I'll play.

We got Brohm with the pick. Brohm, at least on draft day, was a "steal" in the second. Why was that a waste?

[Lurker64]

The thing that bugs me most about the Williams trade is not that we traded him, and not what we got for him, but that we wasted that pick.

OK, I'll play.

We got Brohm with the pick. Brohm, at least on draft day, was a "steal" in the second. Why was that a waste?

Well, Brohm was a "steal" because he was graded more highly on the boards of "experts", but Brian Brohm is a player I never liked in college and was never impressed by. So far he's entirely lived down to my expectations, and not only that he has a low ceiling. If he turns out to be great, that's wonderful, but there's a reason that he got passed 55 times in the draft.

We could have used that pick in a number of better ways.

[mmmdk]

The thing that bugs me most about the Williams trade is not that we traded him, and not what we got for him, but that we wasted that pick.

OK, I'll play.

We got Brohm with the pick. Brohm, at least on draft day, was a "steal" in the second. Why was that a waste?

Well, Brohm was a "steal" because he was graded more highly on the boards of "experts", but Brian Brohm is a player I never liked in college and was never impressed by. So far he's entirely lived down to my expectations, and not only that he has a low ceiling. If he turns out to be great, that's wonderful, but there's a reason that he got passed 55 times in the draft.

We could have used that pick in a number of better ways.

I suspect Lord Favros retiring had quite a bit to do with the Brohm pick. Thank you M:e:d:i:a:Q:U:E:E:N :violin:

[Bretsky]

While Williams had his faults, I do think that he was worth keeping around on the franchise tag for another year. I kind of agree with those who say his contract with Cleveland is too rich, but the tag for a year would've been a fairly good deal for Green Bay. I'd certainly feel better about our DL right now, and suspect that most others would as well.

Hindsight is 20/20. There weren't many people, not even Bretsky, who didn't like the trade at the time.

http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=11454


Now had I known we were going to draft a backup QB with that pick.... :?: :lol:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Too early to write off Brohm. Most QBs don't set the world on fire in their first camp.

[mmmdk]

Too early to write off Brohm. Most QBs don't set the world on fire in their first camp.

True...but a Nazi rookie QB is a different story.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Lumpkin's strong performance and Wynn's inability to stay healthy made that move pretty much inevitable--but I'll bet someone else gives Wynn a look.

yup

[Harlan Huckleby]

While Williams had his faults, I do think that he was worth keeping around on the franchise tag for another year. I kind of agree with those who say his contract with Cleveland is too rich, but the tag for a year would've been a fairly good deal for Green Bay. I'd certainly feel better about our DL right now, and suspect that most others would as well.

Hindsight is 20/20. There weren't many people, not even Bretsky, who didn't like the trade at the time.

http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=11454


me, sir. I didn't like the trade.

[HarveyWallbangers]

me, sir. I didn't like the trade.

You might have been spot on. I didn't assume Harrell would get injured again. I didn't know Jolly would get busted for codeine. I was also hoping that Muir would take a step forward in his development. I guess I'm a little surprised that we didn't draft a DT also.

[HarveyWallbangers]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blogs/insider/index.shtml


Harrell recently received a second opinion on his back, which he injured a disc in while lifting weights early in the offseason program, had surgery on in April and aggravated in July.

"After consultation with Pat (McKenzie, the team doctor), we felt like another procedure would kind of hurry things along," General Manager Ted Thompson said this morning. "He's gotten himself in remarkable shape. I think our guys have done a great job in the rehab. But we've reached a point where we've sort of plateaued, and looking out over the timeline, we felt like it was going to take a few weeks without doing anything, but maybe doing a little extra procedure might hurry things along."

Placing Harrell on PUP means he'll be ineligible to return to the active roster until at least Week 7. Without getting into specifics, Thompson said the latest surgery will be a little different than the one Harrell underwent in April. It could be performed as soon as today.

"The quicker the better, obviously, because then you can kind of start back on the whole recovery thing," Thompson said.

[HarveyWallbangers]

me, sir. I didn't like the trade.

Were you a Wynn guy last year?

[SkinBasket]

Well, Brohm was a "steal" because he was graded more highly on the boards of "experts", but Brian Brohm is a player I never liked in college and was never impressed by. So far he's entirely lived down to my expectations, and not only that he has a low ceiling. If he turns out to be great, that's wonderful, but there's a reason that he got passed 55 times in the draft.

We could have used that pick in a number of better ways.

Have you gotten your job offer letter from the front office yet? If not, I would wait next to mailbox. There's a spot next to the dog with his tail in the air waiting for the afternoon sun.

[rbaloha1]

Harrell flashed power and explosion last season. According to Reggie Mckenzie JH is a high character guy.

JH's mental toughness needs to be questioned. Or is just bad lack? Fully expect JH to make solid contributions later in the season.

Currently the middle is soft. Think we will be fine once Pickett returns. Depth is certainly an issue since Cole and Jenkins are capable for only a few series.

[retailguy]

While Williams had his faults, I do think that he was worth keeping around on the franchise tag for another year. I kind of agree with those who say his contract with Cleveland is too rich, but the tag for a year would've been a fairly good deal for Green Bay. I'd certainly feel better about our DL right now, and suspect that most others would as well.

Hindsight is 20/20. There weren't many people, not even Bretsky, who didn't like the trade at the time.

http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=11454

Whatever Harvey, you call it the way you see it. But you'll still be WRONG.

Harrell's problems were well documented at the time. They SHOULD HAVE given pause to any rationally thinking person. Maybe they did and Ted traded anyhow. Maybe they didn't.

But to call it second guessing? Ridiculous. The arguably TOP prospect was looking anything like a TOP prospect at perhaps the second most important position on a football team. You've got a guy performing at "almost" pro bowl level that you can keep for $6.3m or trade for a 2nd round pick that likely won't make the contribution in 2008 that Williams will make. There was NOTHING to suggest that Williams wouldn't have had value after 2008 either.

You go on to state that you "couldn't have predicted" all the other moves that happened to make this deal look questionable, however, YOU aren't an expert. You're just a loud-mouthed guy with the popular forum opinion... and a subscription to every sports magazine published since 1950. When your top prospect is out, then your top prospect is out. If you make the call that other prospects are just as good, but if you get that wrong, well then you deserve the criticism.

These things happen all the time. Guys get in trouble. Guys flash brilliance, then peter out. When you trade for a pick, you essentially say that you'll trade the 1st years production for future performance. Ted is ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE for that... His choice. His consequence.

Finally, the assertion that "almost the whole forum agreed with it" is patently ludicrous. If that's the best you got.... <sheesh>

[Carolina_Packer]

Injuries to players are unfortunate, especially when they are trying to make a first impression, like Harrell is. We haven't been able to see what he can do healthy for one year. His bicep injury was known about and they took a flyer on him anyway. The back injury lifting weights was just dumb luck. It doesn't mean he's a bust, though. If he sucks when back to health and with a little bit of experience under his belt, then he's a bust.

[Merlin]

I was a little surprised by Wynn being let go this soon although we are fairly deep at running back so we knew someone had to go and probably one or two more before it's all said and done. Francis again plays at a position we are deep at and there are clearly more talented guys in front of him. Justin Harrell, no surprise that he now can't play until week 7 if at all. If this were Cledius Hunt everyone would be calling for him to be cut, but for whatever reason everyone still has high hopes that Harrell can contribute. Personally I think the guy is a bust primarily becaue he hasn't been healthy since his Junior year at college (and I don't think he played every game that year, I could be wrong). At the very least he for all intents and purposes didn't play his senior year, barely played last year, and probably won't play this year. That's 3 seasons of football and you don't get better when you don't play. We need to get him healthy, on the roster, then cut him before we get stuck with the injury payments...Comparing Cleditus Hunt to Justin Harrel is plain idotic. This is only Harrel's second year. Thats why people are stilling cutting him a little slack. Hunt, you seem tyo forget, had been in the league several seasons and was given a fat contract. He then proceded to stink up the joint. People wanted Hunt gone becuase he wasn't coming close to the prduction expected from the contract given him. Harrel is still basically a rookie.If yu can't see that is why some people still have hope for Harrell, then you truely are blind.

Why am I not surprised by your blind hatred of fellow man. The facts are against you so you attack me. Not many people supported Cledius Hunt and most everyone can agree the guy was a waste. By comparing a player who has as of yet been healthy enough to even play the game the past 3 years who was an overall number one pick vs a guy who had one good season, got paid a lot, then sucked, isn't a stretch. In FACT, it is just about the same thing, with one difference: At least we got 1 year of production out of Hunt and a few million dollar a piece tackles in comparison to a handful of games where Harrell made no impact. Outside of that, I guess they are pretty much in the same boat. Harrell has not been healthy almost his entire college/NFL career. He has what is obviously a serious back injury that I doubt he will be able to come back from. His triceps injury was a serious enough one that not many people come back from and now he has another injury. You can hope for him in 2009, if in fact he doesn't break a nail.

As far as your hate speech, I suggest you take a long look in that mirror inside of your glass house before you go throwing any more stones....

[Merlin]

Injuries to players are unfortunate, especially when they are trying to make a first impression, like Harrell is. We haven't been able to see what he can do healthy for one year. His bicep injury was known about and they took a flyer on him anyway. The back injury lifting weights was just dumb luck. It doesn't mean he's a bust, though. If he sucks when back to health and with a little bit of experience under his belt, then he's a bust.

I think the guy has had a string of bad luck dating back his entire career. That being said, I didn't then and I can't now fathom taking a gamble on a guy who has never been healthy. And what I said is true: When you aren't playing the game you can't get better at it. He needs to be on the field, injury free. I can be optimistic about a lot of things, but history is on my side here: The guy can't stay healthy. It now appears it won't be until year 3 that he will be healthy enough to contribute. 3 years for a #1 draft pick to finally get healthy enough to play (and learn the NFL game on the field)? I guess to me that has bust written all over it...

[Zool]

Injuries to players are unfortunate, especially when they are trying to make a first impression, like Harrell is. We haven't been able to see what he can do healthy for one year. His bicep injury was known about and they took a flyer on him anyway. The back injury lifting weights was just dumb luck. It doesn't mean he's a bust, though. If he sucks when back to health and with a little bit of experience under his belt, then he's a bust.

Exactly. Saying someone KNEW he would get hurt again is like a lottery winner saying "i KNEW i was going to win"

[Lurker64]

Injuries to players are unfortunate, especially when they are trying to make a first impression, like Harrell is. We haven't been able to see what he can do healthy for one year. His bicep injury was known about and they took a flyer on him anyway. The back injury lifting weights was just dumb luck. It doesn't mean he's a bust, though. If he sucks when back to health and with a little bit of experience under his belt, then he's a bust.

Exactly. Saying someone KNEW he would get hurt again is like a lottery winner saying "i KNEW i was going to win"

Unfortunately, that (http://www.wnbc.com/money/17263616/detail.html) happens in the state of Wisconsin as well.

[HarveyWallbangers]

blah, blah, blah...

Finally, the assertion that "almost the whole forum agreed with it" is patently ludicrous. If that's the best you got.... <sheesh>

And you're still the guy who states his opinion that the front office screwed up after the fact, and didn't say anything at the time of the trade. It's easy now to say it would be nice to have Williams. You could even say the front office should have expected that Harrell would get hurt. That's fair. However, Harrell was just a piece, and several of the pieces look questionable for reasons that couldn't be assumed at the time (Jolly and his codeine, Muir taking a step back, KGB getting hurt so Jenkins needs to stay outside). Like I said, hindsight is 20/20. How about your response to the guy who said having Williams wouldn't help the pathetic run defense we've shown in the preseason? I tend to agree with him. I feel like guys like Williams and Jolly and Hunter will end up making up for the loss of Williams inside pass rush. (Of course, losing KGB wouldn't help that, so hopefully he gets healthy.) I'm more worried about the interior run defense, and Williams wouldn't have helped much there.

BTW, because the Williams trade was universally praised on this forum, I predicted that it would end up turning out to be a bad move.

[Merlin]

Although I understood the Williams trade, I had neither a for or against attitude. I thought for sure we would sign someone, draft someone, something to make up for the spot. Last year taught us that we must have depth on the defensive line. We traded one away, replaced him with no one, lost one to injury already and a few others are banged up. If the focus was on the defense as McCarthy stated that Ted stated, then the current state of our DL is confusing as hell to me.

[Zool]

I liked the Williams trade because the guy was going to get way too much money for an undersized tackle that gets pushed around in the running game.

[Partial]

Well, Brohm was a "steal" because he was graded more highly on the boards of "experts", but Brian Brohm is a player I never liked in college and was never impressed by. So far he's entirely lived down to my expectations, and not only that he has a low ceiling. If he turns out to be great, that's wonderful, but there's a reason that he got passed 55 times in the draft.

We could have used that pick in a number of better ways.

Have you gotten your job offer letter from the front office yet? If not, I would wait next to mailbox. There's a spot next to the dog with his tail in the air waiting for the afternoon sun.

My thoughts exactly :lol:

[Packnut]

Injuries to players are unfortunate, especially when they are trying to make a first impression, like Harrell is. We haven't been able to see what he can do healthy for one year. His bicep injury was known about and they took a flyer on him anyway. The back injury lifting weights was just dumb luck. It doesn't mean he's a bust, though. If he sucks when back to health and with a little bit of experience under his belt, then he's a bust.

No, it was not "dumb Luck". By his own admission he went home in the off-season and ate like there was no tomorrow. He came back FAT AND OUT OF SHAPE. People have to stop making excuses for this guy. He has a very poor work ethic. He got the big pay-check and developed the Hunt syndrome.

Even if he comes back after 6 weeks, it will take another 2 or 3 to get in game shape. Couple that with the fact he has little game experience and year 2 is also a bust.

Teddy made the statement in regarding Wynn that you have to make yourself "available". Does'nt that also apply to Harrell? Difference is his neck is on the line with Harrell and he'll make all the excuses he can think of. Just a tad hypocritical.................

[HarveyWallbangers]

Teddy made the statement in regarding Wynn that you have to make yourself "available". Does'nt that also apply to Harrell? Difference is his neck is on the line with Harrell and he'll make all the excuses he can think of. Just a tad hypocritical.................

The difference is that Harrell has a ton more talent that Wynn AND GMs never cut a 1st round pick before year 2 even starts. That's any GM. I don't buy the other lame explanations.

[Packnut]

Teddy made the statement in regarding Wynn that you have to make yourself "available". Does'nt that also apply to Harrell? Difference is his neck is on the line with Harrell and he'll make all the excuses he can think of. Just a tad hypocritical.................

The difference is that Harrell has a ton more talent that Wynn AND GMs never cut a 1st round pick before year 2 even starts. That's any GM. I don't buy the other lame explanations.

Where is this talent you speak of? It sure has'nt been on display in GB. Hell, Wynn had talent in college too. Look, any really "MOTIVATED" athlete would have realized how disappointing he was as a 1st rd pick and would have worked his ass off during the off-season to come out on fire in year 2. What did Harrell do? He went home and ate everything his momma put in front of him. Yeah, that's motivation.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Teddy made the statement in regarding Wynn that you have to make yourself "available". Does'nt that also apply to Harrell? Difference is his neck is on the line with Harrell and he'll make all the excuses he can think of. Just a tad hypocritical.................

The difference is that Harrell has a ton more talent that Wynn AND GMs never cut a 1st round pick before year 2 even starts. That's any GM. I don't buy the other lame explanations.

Where is this talent you speak of? It sure has'nt been on display in GB. Hell, Wynn had talent in college too. Look, any really "MOTIVATED" athlete would have realized how disappointing he was as a 1st rd pick and would have worked his ass off during the off-season to come out on fire in year 2. What did Harrell do? He went home and ate everything his momma put in front of him. Yeah, that's motivation.

The scouts were all in agreement about his talent. You can deny that all you want, but it is the truth. And, the statement was in comparison to wynn. Not even a dispute.

JH is a young kid who is/was immature and didnt' realize the demands of pro ball. That is quite a difference between being unmotivated.

That is the past. Should we condemn him for that forever. I seem to recall a QB that was out drinking so much his rookie year that his coach wanted to cut him. A qb that fell asleep in meetings, didn't pay attention, and was generally considered to be a loser.

He got hurt lifting weights...doesn't that tell you something about his movitivation now. That is what matters...NOW!

[retailguy]

And you're still the guy who states his opinion that the front office screwed up after the fact, and didn't say anything at the time of the trade. It's easy now to say it would be nice to have Williams.

Just because I didn't post in the thread, doesn't mean that I didn't say anything about it. There was such a "love fest" going on, I wasn't in the mood to be a wet blanket. I'm sure there would have been someone lining up to "take a shot" had I opined. You can't have it both ways Harvey, you've gone out of your way to criticize EVERYTHING I've said lately. Others jump on certain posters whenever they say anything, or they cherry pick quotes to twist their meaning. If you do this, then don't wonder why you don't get a differing opinion. You don't WANT IT, except to criticize it. So then, later, saying "you kept quiet", is really dirty pool. No one, yourself included, likes to be attacked all the time. Except for Tank and we ran him off.

My ONLY gripe with the trade is that we were coming off a 13-3 season, with Harrell down and KGB hurt. $6.3m was an expensive insurance policy but prudent compared to where GB's cap was. While I value draft choices, and think Ted got fair value, I have never seen where the draft choice had the upside for 2008 that keeping Williams had. We're seeing the possibility of that situation right now.

I admit, there is a long-term component that I have purposefully ignored, but I think that 13-3 dictates that... to a certain extent anyhow.



You could even say the front office should have expected that Harrell would get hurt. That's fair.

I did. Then you told me 20/20 hindsight was easy. If it's "fair" then why did you criticize? (see response #1 above)



However, Harrell was just a piece, and several of the pieces look questionable for reasons that couldn't be assumed at the time (Jolly and his codeine, Muir taking a step back, KGB getting hurt so Jenkins needs to stay outside).

Jolly could not have been predicted, notice that I didn't mention that. Sometimes you just get bad breaks. However, KGB was already hurt, that was KNOWN. We as fans didn't know that surgery was necessary, but the line will always be grey as to what is "known" to the fans. He had a torn meniscus, that knee bothered him late last season too. Next, Muir was not a factor late last season, I guess you can "rely" on him stepping up, but there is risk there. Finally, if KGB was hurt, it seems that it was reasonable to assume that Jenkins was needed outside, and if not, then I guess we're down to relying on Montgomery. Surely you're not going to advocate that was a wise decision?



Like I said, hindsight is 20/20. How about your response to the guy who said having Williams wouldn't help the pathetic run defense we've shown in the preseason? I tend to agree with him.

I think it's fair to point out his run defense, it has always been his weak point. What I'll say to it, is that last week, I shared that I was concerned about the OL and that Rodgers performance wasn't good as a result of that. Your response to me was that it was a meaningless pre-season game and premature to be concerned. Shouldn't that apply to our DL as well?

The true question becomes Williams run defense vs. what would replace him - Muir/Hunter/Cole. I think this Williams run defense is better than these guys, even though I'd only call it "fair".





I feel like guys like Williams and Jolly and Hunter will end up making up for the loss of Williams inside pass rush. (Of course, losing KGB wouldn't help that, so hopefully he gets healthy.) I'm more worried about the interior run defense, and Williams wouldn't have helped much there.

Last season the rotation kept guys fresh and that made them better than they were, I believe. I'm not of the opinion that any one of the guys is a superstar.

One could opine that since it's likely Jolly will play, that Jenkins can stay outside, and life is good. However, that's short sighted because of the additional plays and minutes the starters will have to be on the field. Part of the real "value" that Williams provided was being another "dependable" body that you could have on the field with low risk of the "blown" assignment. I'm not feeling so confident about that right now. The depth in the wake of Williams departure is clearly substandard (IMHO) than what we had with Williams. I think the "real" loss is in the rotation. Can you really trust these remaining guys to step up and provide that? If not, then can the existing starters perform as well with additional minutes? It isn't so 'cut and dried' when you look at it this way.



BTW, because the Williams trade was universally praised on this forum, I predicted that it would end up turning out to be a bad move.

This reminds me of a chinese proverb that I will save for another time.

What I will say, is that there is a group of people here who think they are absolute "experts" and that anything they say represents concrete fact. This trade will be interesting to watch play out. But to say that Ted doesn't deserve criticism for it, if it blows up in his face is preposterous. There were warning signs. There is still hope that it pans out well, too. Doesn't look so hot today, but that's par for the course.

I think I dealt with everything, and without one "blah, blah, blah... Imagine that?

[Harlan Huckleby]

me, sir. I didn't like the trade.

Were you a Wynn guy last year?

if you believe what Bretsky says I sure was

[Bretsky]

me, sir. I didn't like the trade.

Were you a Wynn guy last year?

if you believe what Bretsky says I sure was

HH loved Wynn; posted some url's to prove it......although.....he pointed out that nobody really cares if he is completely wrong. Seeing I remember....and you do too.......me thinks he underestimates his football related views

[The Gunshooter]

GB is going into this season a little light at D-line.

I believe TT decided in 2006 he didn't want Corey Williams for the money he was going to have to shell out. That's why he drafted Harrell in the first place, to replace Williams. Then Jolly emerges and the depth was just wearing offenses out last year in the 4th quarter. They were lining up Kampman, Pickett, Williams, and KGB on passing downs and that's not too shabby. Then Jolly and KGB gets hurt and GB was not so great.

Now with Williams gone and Harrell hurt they have lost their depth.

TT had to trade Williams but I bet he doesn't make that move if he knew Favre was retiring and Harrell was going to be hurt again. I bet he would of franchised him.

They should be ok when Pickett, Hawk and KGB come back but if GB loses anybody else the defense becomes average. The only way GB matches or exceeds what they did last year is if Harrell is able to play well and GB has no injuries.

If GB traded for Lito Sheppard right now that would probably be the only way they can afford to not have Harrell this year.

[retailguy]

If GB traded for Lito Sheppard right now that would probably be the only way they can afford to not have Harrell this year.

Careful.... I got attacked pretty hard for supporting an effort to trade for him, even though I didn't agree with trading James Jones to get him.

We don't need no stinkin cornerbacks. The experts have spoken.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=14236

[HarveyWallbangers]

If GB traded for Lito Sheppard right now that would probably be the only way they can afford to not have Harrell this year.

Careful.... I got attacked pretty hard for supporting an effort to trade for him

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=14236

RG playing the victim role again. Surprising. Yet, he still manages to take a potshot. I won't claim that anybody attacked me though.

[retailguy]

If GB traded for Lito Sheppard right now that would probably be the only way they can afford to not have Harrell this year.

Careful.... I got attacked pretty hard for supporting an effort to trade for him

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=14236

RG playing the victim role again. Surprising. Yet, he still manages to take a potshot. I won't claim that anybody attacked me though.

The victim role? :?: Whatever.... I did get attacked, even though I didn't like James Jones as part of the trade. facts is facts. Victimhood is optional..

In your world there was ZERO substance to what I said. If pointing that out makes me a "victim" then well, I guess that's the way it is.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

If GB traded for Lito Sheppard right now that would probably be the only way they can afford to not have Harrell this year.

Careful.... I got attacked pretty hard for supporting an effort to trade for him

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=14236

RG playing the victim role again. Surprising. Yet, he still manages to take a potshot. I won't claim that anybody attacked me though.

The victim role? :?: Whatever.... I did get attacked, even though I didn't like James Jones as part of the trade. facts is facts. Victimhood is optional..

In your world there was ZERO substance to what I said. If pointing that out makes me a "victim" then well, I guess that's the way it is.

I read the thread and you were hardly attacked.

I rarely agree with Harv, but your victimhood stance is hilarious.

I guess this fits in with your whole persecuted conserv thing.

[Chevelle2]

Lito Sheppard is injury prone.

[retailguy]

I read the thread and you were hardly attacked.

I rarely agree with Harv, but your victimhood stance is hilarious.

I guess this fits in with your whole persecuted conserv thing.

I find is shocking that you disagreed with me. You can be thoroughly counted on for the sane, rational, impartial opinion, especially when it comes to me. :roll:

[retailguy]

Lito Sheppard is injury prone.

so is Justin Harrell and we gave up a mid first round pick for him

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I read the thread and you were hardly attacked.

I rarely agree with Harv, but your victimhood stance is hilarious.

I guess this fits in with your whole persecuted conserv thing.

I find is shocking that you disagreed with me. You can be thoroughly counted on for the sane, rational, impartial opinion, especially when it comes to me. :roll:

Really, since i agree with harv. Nice try, but you can't even counter the substantive part..you were hardly attacked.

Should i relegate all your posts with the same bs...that you can't be sane, rational, impartial, etc. Nice.

Last refuge of the incompetent.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It would be nice to have 5 Pro Bowl corners, but it's not realistic. With Harris and Woodson here, good luck getting Sheppard (or Woodson/Harris) to gladly accept a nickel role. Most teams are like the Packers. They have two good, veteran corners with three solid developmental types behind them. I should say that most teams would like to have the corners that the Packers have. Some don't even have two good ones. Realistically, you have to hope that Tramon Williams takes the next step and becomes a solid nickel corner and you hope that the likes of Lee, Blackmon, and/or Bush play decent if they have to play a lot. No team has 4th and 5th corners that can cover good, starting caliber receivers.

[retailguy]

It would be nice to have 5 Pro Bowl corners, but it's not realistic. With Harris and Woodson here, good luck getting Sheppard (or Woodson/Harris) to gladly accept a nickel role. Most teams are like the Packers. They have two good, veteran corners with three solid developmental types behind them. I should say that most teams would like to have the corners that the Packers have. Some don't even have two good ones. Realistically, you have to hope that Tramon Williams takes the next step and becomes a solid nickel corner and you hope that the likes of Lee, Blackmon, and/or Bush play decent if they have to play a lot. No team has 4th and 5th corners that can cover good, starting caliber receivers.


You hold our 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th corners in higher regard than I do. Williams has potential, lee is a very raw rookie....

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It would be nice to have 5 Pro Bowl corners, but it's not realistic. With Harris and Woodson here, good luck getting Sheppard (or Woodson/Harris) to gladly accept a nickel role. Most teams are like the Packers. They have two good, veteran corners with three solid developmental types behind them. I should say that most teams would like to have the corners that the Packers have. Some don't even have two good ones. Realistically, you have to hope that Tramon Williams takes the next step and becomes a solid nickel corner and you hope that the likes of Lee, Blackmon, and/or Bush play decent if they have to play a lot. No team has 4th and 5th corners that can cover good, starting caliber receivers.

THis is the kind of defeatist attitude that forces the pack into mediocrity.

The pack must have all-pros at every position and near all pro at their backups. Every backup must be good enough to start on every team.

[HarveyWallbangers]

You hold our 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th corners in higher regard than I do. Williams has potential, lee is a very raw rookie....

Vikings vaunted defense has Benny Sapp, Marcus McCauley, and Charles Gordon backing up Winfield and Griffin.

Bears vaunted defense has Trumain McBride and Corey Graham backing up Tillman and Vasher.

Chargers vaunted defense has Cletis Gordon and Antoine Cason backing up Cromartie and Jammer.

An exception is Dallas with Newman, Henry, and Pac Man, but that's only because they were willing to sell their soul to the devil, so to speak. Not many teams have three corners like Carolina.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It would be nice to have 5 Pro Bowl corners, but it's not realistic. With Harris and Woodson here, good luck getting Sheppard (or Woodson/Harris) to gladly accept a nickel role. Most teams are like the Packers. They have two good, veteran corners with three solid developmental types behind them. I should say that most teams would like to have the corners that the Packers have. Some don't even have two good ones. Realistically, you have to hope that Tramon Williams takes the next step and becomes a solid nickel corner and you hope that the likes of Lee, Blackmon, and/or Bush play decent if they have to play a lot. No team has 4th and 5th corners that can cover good, starting caliber receivers.


You hold our 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th corners in higher regard than I do. Williams has potential, lee is a very raw rookie....

You just don't seem to understand the NFL. There is a reason CBs go high in the draft...they are hard to find.

the pats are going with Lewis Sanders and Terrence Wheatley...i'm sure they are much better than ours. :roll:

Most teams don't have great depth at CB. Or do you not understand why we went 4 or 5 wide?

[The Gunshooter]

Lito Sheppard is injury prone.

He kicks the Cowboys ass though.

[retailguy]

You hold our 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th corners in higher regard than I do. Williams has potential, lee is a very raw rookie....

Vikings vaunted defense has Benny Sapp, Marcus McCauley, and Charles Gordon backing up Winfield and Griffin.

Bears vaunted defense has Trumain McBride and Corey Graham backing up Tillman and Vasher.

Chargers vaunted defense has Cletis Gordon and Antoine Cason backing up Cromartie and Jammer.

An exception is Dallas with Newman, Henry, and Pac Man, but that's only because they were willing to sell their soul to the devil, so to speak. Not many teams have three corners like Carolina.

Seems to me that the Eagles have three pretty good corners too.

And I fail to see what is wrong with Cason. I think he's OK. Just as OK as Williams...

[retailguy]

You just don't seem to understand the NFL.

Yep, that's it. :roll:

Now, please tell me again, that I'm imagining the 'elitist' mentality.



There is a reason CBs go high in the draft...they are hard to find.


Which makes it all the more important when you can get a quality 3rd guy (who is available), who could become a starter soon, since our guys are both on the older side.

What's wrong with pursuing it? We pursued Al Harris when we had Tyrone Williams and Mike McKenzie... that seemed to work out ok...

[HarveyWallbangers]

Nothing wrong with Cason, but what makes him better than Tramon Williams or Patrick Lee at this point. He's just as unproven.

Philly actually has four solid corners. Carolina has three.


Not many teams have three corners like Carolina.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You hold our 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th corners in higher regard than I do. Williams has potential, lee is a very raw rookie....

Vikings vaunted defense has Benny Sapp, Marcus McCauley, and Charles Gordon backing up Winfield and Griffin.

Bears vaunted defense has Trumain McBride and Corey Graham backing up Tillman and Vasher.

Chargers vaunted defense has Cletis Gordon and Antoine Cason backing up Cromartie and Jammer.

An exception is Dallas with Newman, Henry, and Pac Man, but that's only because they were willing to sell their soul to the devil, so to speak. Not many teams have three corners like Carolina.

Seems to me that the Eagles have three pretty good corners too.

And I fail to see what is wrong with Cason. I think he's OK. Just as OK as Williams...

What part of "not many" didn't you understand?

The Eagles do have 3 good corners..they are the exception that proves the rule. Very few teams have that caliber.

I guess you would also like their LBs: Omar Gaither, Stewart Bradley and Chris Gocong. :oops:

Cason: Dude, are you purposefully trying to be a hypocrite. If you label Lee as raw how do not give that same grade to Cason. He is a rookie..or are you now judging him based off your extensive UA scouting? As good as williams..how so. At least williams has a year of experience.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You just don't seem to understand the NFL.

Yep, that's it. :roll:

Now, please tell me again, that I'm imagining the 'elitist' mentality.



There is a reason CBs go high in the draft...they are hard to find.


Which makes it all the more important when you can get a quality 3rd guy (who is available), who could become a starter soon, since our guys are both on the older side.

What's wrong with pursuing it? We pursued Al Harris when we had Tyrone Williams and Mike McKenzie... that seemed to work out ok...

Is it elitist to know more than someone else? I guess so..but, i guess when you told us about oil and drilling..that wasn't elitst...to trust you. And, that you knew more than the gov't, etc.

Puhlease. You are such a freakin hypocrite. look in the mirror sometime.

Pursuing: I never said one thing about that. However, Sheppard isn't going to want to come here to be a 3rd CB..he is already that. And, who knows how that will sour him to our org..or how that will make our current CBs feel..both the starters and the younger players.

And, to compare harris is foolish. Harris wasn't a former starter and pro bowl player. His mindset was different. ANd, he wasn't constantly hurt. everybody knows lito is injury prone. My god, you are on JH and yet you want this guy.

available: proof please. They signed asante in march. Does that not make you wonder about if he is really available...or if the price is ridiculous.

[retailguy]

Nothing wrong with Cason, but what makes him better than Tramon Williams



I think he's OK. Just as OK as Williams

[retailguy]

Is it elitist to know more than someone else? I guess so..but, i guess when you told us about oil and drilling..that wasn't elitst...to trust you.

Well, I have about 20 years of experience in Oil & Gas, so at this point, I think I know a few things about how it works.

taking your analogy to it's fullest conclusion, I was unaware that you had 20 years of experience working in the NFL..... :roll:

[SkinBasket]

Someone's forgetting the glory days of having Evans and Buckley backed up by Sammy Walker, Bruce Pickens, Muhammad Oliver, and Roland Mitchell. You just don't see depth like that anymore.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Is it elitist to know more than someone else? I guess so..but, i guess when you told us about oil and drilling..that wasn't elitst...to trust you.

Well, I have about 20 years of experience in Oil & Gas, so at this point, I think I know a few things about how it works.

taking your analogy to it's fullest conclusion, I was unaware that you had 20 years of experience working in the NFL..... :roll:

Thanx for proving my point. You are a hypocrite. You are an elitist.

But, regardless of your length of time..doesn't mean you are right. And, to say that because you have experience means you are right..that is elitism. Or isn't it.

One doesn't need 20 years of NFL experience to know more than you. Sorry, but your posts pretty much bear it out.

[pbmax]

One thing unmentioned in the pining for Corey Williams; his tender was not signed until he had an agreement to redo the deal with the Browns.

Even if you don't trade Williams, he isn't going to want to play for the tender. His leverage is to holdout. So Justin Harrell or no, Williams might not even have been on the field until next week. At which time I am sure his hamstrings would have been just fine.

To get him to report after Pickett, KGB and Harrell's injuries would have cost a boatload of cash. And he wasn't worth it. Just because Harrell did not pan out this camp, doesn't mean Williams was the right move.

[Partial]

Hindsights 20/20. Good deal at the time. Shame Harrell, Pickett, and Jolly all got hurt or in trouble.

[The Gunshooter]

Sheppard has played in 77 of 96 possible games, thats 80%. Charles Woodson had played in 87 of 112 up until GB signed him, that's 77%.

[The Gunshooter]

One thing unmentioned in the pining for Corey Williams; his tender was not signed until he had an agreement to redo the deal with the Browns.

Even if you don't trade Williams, he isn't going to want to play for the tender. His leverage is to holdout. So Justin Harrell or no, Williams might not even have been on the field until next week. At which time I am sure his hamstrings would have been just fine.

To get him to report after Pickett, KGB and Harrell's injuries would have cost a boatload of cash. And he wasn't worth it. Just because Harrell did not pan out this camp, doesn't mean Williams was the right move.

You are right. The last thing GB needed was another controversy like that. Brohm looks like a slug so I think GB got nothing from that deal anyway.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Nothing wrong with Cason, but what makes him better than Tramon Williams


I think he's OK. Just as OK as Williams

So, what's your point then? Since it appears you already defeated it.

[retailguy]

Nothing wrong with Cason, but what makes him better than Tramon Williams


I think he's OK. Just as OK as Williams

So, what's your point then? Since it appears you already defeated it.

I defeated it from ONE guy on ONE team? Ok, who would you rather have, Williams or Cason? Cason's got much better upside than Williams, or Lee for that matter...

Me? I'll take the veteran. Sheppard likely helps this year. coming off 13-3, that's a good deal to me, depending on what we've got to give up to get him.

For the longer term? I want Cason over any of them.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I defeated it from ONE guy on ONE team? Ok, who would you rather have, Williams or Cason? Cason's got much better upside than Williams, or Lee for that matter...

Who knows? Cason and Lee are both rookies. Cason was a late 1st. Lee a late 2nd. (Didn't Greg Jennings turn out to be better than most WRs taken ahead of him?) We have no idea who will be a better player. Tramon could end up being the best of the three. Personally, I wasn't a big fan of Cason--for our scheme. The point is that the Packers are in better shape at corner than most teams in the league. Pointing out a few teams that may or may not be better doesn't really improve your argument--especially when you are pointing out a team that also has young corners as backups.

[mmmdk]

Coach McCarthy said on the 25th of aug. that Wynn had a lot of football in front of him?? Did he mean on TV??? :lol:

[cpk1994]

I was a little surprised by Wynn being let go this soon although we are fairly deep at running back so we knew someone had to go and probably one or two more before it's all said and done. Francis again plays at a position we are deep at and there are clearly more talented guys in front of him. Justin Harrell, no surprise that he now can't play until week 7 if at all. If this were Cledius Hunt everyone would be calling for him to be cut, but for whatever reason everyone still has high hopes that Harrell can contribute. Personally I think the guy is a bust primarily becaue he hasn't been healthy since his Junior year at college (and I don't think he played every game that year, I could be wrong). At the very least he for all intents and purposes didn't play his senior year, barely played last year, and probably won't play this year. That's 3 seasons of football and you don't get better when you don't play. We need to get him healthy, on the roster, then cut him before we get stuck with the injury payments...Comparing Cleditus Hunt to Justin Harrel is plain idotic. This is only Harrel's second year. Thats why people are stilling cutting him a little slack. Hunt, you seem tyo forget, had been in the league several seasons and was given a fat contract. He then proceded to stink up the joint. People wanted Hunt gone becuase he wasn't coming close to the prduction expected from the contract given him. Harrel is still basically a rookie.If yu can't see that is why some people still have hope for Harrell, then you truely are blind.

Why am I not surprised by your blind hatred of fellow man. The facts are against you so you attack me. Not many people supported Cledius Hunt and most everyone can agree the guy was a waste. By comparing a player who has as of yet been healthy enough to even play the game the past 3 years who was an overall number one pick vs a guy who had one good season, got paid a lot, then sucked, isn't a stretch. In FACT, it is just about the same thing, with one difference: At least we got 1 year of production out of Hunt and a few million dollar a piece tackles in comparison to a handful of games where Harrell made no impact. Outside of that, I guess they are pretty much in the same boat. Harrell has not been healthy almost his entire college/NFL career. He has what is obviously a serious back injury that I doubt he will be able to come back from. His triceps injury was a serious enough one that not many people come back from and now he has another injury. You can hope for him in 2009, if in fact he doesn't break a nail.

As far as your hate speech, I suggest you take a long look in that mirror inside of your glass house before you go throwing any more stones....You jsut made my point for me. People knew Hunt was a waste becuase they had several seasons to make that distinction. Harrell is only had one. That is why people are still cutting Harrell some slack and still willing to give him a chance. You on the other hand, proclaim players busts on draft day and refuse to give them any chance(Rodgers, Crosby to name two) On that basis alone it is ludicrous to compare to Hunt just yet. On a side note, I don't hate you, just think you are an ignorant tool.

[Merlin]

Teddy made the statement in regarding Wynn that you have to make yourself "available". Does'nt that also apply to Harrell? Difference is his neck is on the line with Harrell and he'll make all the excuses he can think of. Just a tad hypocritical.................

The difference is that Harrell has a ton more talent that Wynn AND GMs never cut a 1st round pick before year 2 even starts. That's any GM. I don't buy the other lame explanations.

Where is this talent you speak of? It sure has'nt been on display in GB. Hell, Wynn had talent in college too. Look, any really "MOTIVATED" athlete would have realized how disappointing he was as a 1st rd pick and would have worked his ass off during the off-season to come out on fire in year 2. What did Harrell do? He went home and ate everything his momma put in front of him. Yeah, that's motivation.

The scouts were all in agreement about his talent. You can deny that all you want, but it is the truth. And, the statement was in comparison to wynn. Not even a dispute.

JH is a young kid who is/was immature and didnt' realize the demands of pro ball. That is quite a difference between being unmotivated.

That is the past. Should we condemn him for that forever. I seem to recall a QB that was out drinking so much his rookie year that his coach wanted to cut him. A qb that fell asleep in meetings, didn't pay attention, and was generally considered to be a loser.

He got hurt lifting weights...doesn't that tell you something about his movitivation now. That is what matters...NOW!

The scouts were also in agreement (unanimously) that he was a huge risk to take in the first round because of his injury history. In fact because he sat out basically his entire senior year with injury, that should have pushed him out of the first round entirely (maybe early second round at best according to these "scouts" you are parroting). He had 1 good season, 3 years ago and I believe he didn't play every game that season or any season in college for that matter. I question his work ethic as all players are expected to lift weights so him doing so does not show his work ethic. I would say it was because of his poor work ethic that he got injured lifting weights, the guy didn't do what was necessary to play in the NFL. Can he turn it around? I say doubtful because of the severity of the injuries.

[Merlin]

I was a little surprised by Wynn being let go this soon although we are fairly deep at running back so we knew someone had to go and probably one or two more before it's all said and done. Francis again plays at a position we are deep at and there are clearly more talented guys in front of him. Justin Harrell, no surprise that he now can't play until week 7 if at all. If this were Cledius Hunt everyone would be calling for him to be cut, but for whatever reason everyone still has high hopes that Harrell can contribute. Personally I think the guy is a bust primarily becaue he hasn't been healthy since his Junior year at college (and I don't think he played every game that year, I could be wrong). At the very least he for all intents and purposes didn't play his senior year, barely played last year, and probably won't play this year. That's 3 seasons of football and you don't get better when you don't play. We need to get him healthy, on the roster, then cut him before we get stuck with the injury payments...Comparing Cleditus Hunt to Justin Harrel is plain idotic. This is only Harrel's second year. Thats why people are stilling cutting him a little slack. Hunt, you seem tyo forget, had been in the league several seasons and was given a fat contract. He then proceded to stink up the joint. People wanted Hunt gone becuase he wasn't coming close to the prduction expected from the contract given him. Harrel is still basically a rookie.If yu can't see that is why some people still have hope for Harrell, then you truely are blind.

Why am I not surprised by your blind hatred of fellow man. The facts are against you so you attack me. Not many people supported Cledius Hunt and most everyone can agree the guy was a waste. By comparing a player who has as of yet been healthy enough to even play the game the past 3 years who was an overall number one pick vs a guy who had one good season, got paid a lot, then sucked, isn't a stretch. In FACT, it is just about the same thing, with one difference: At least we got 1 year of production out of Hunt and a few million dollar a piece tackles in comparison to a handful of games where Harrell made no impact. Outside of that, I guess they are pretty much in the same boat. Harrell has not been healthy almost his entire college/NFL career. He has what is obviously a serious back injury that I doubt he will be able to come back from. His triceps injury was a serious enough one that not many people come back from and now he has another injury. You can hope for him in 2009, if in fact he doesn't break a nail.

As far as your hate speech, I suggest you take a long look in that mirror inside of your glass house before you go throwing any more stones....You jsut made my point for me. People knew Hunt was a waste becuase they had several seasons to make that distinction. Harrell is only had one. That is why people are still cutting Harrell some slack and still willing to give him a chance. You on the other hand, proclaim players busts on draft day and refuse to give them any chance(Rodgers, Crosby to name two) On that basis alone it is ludicrous to compare to Hunt just yet. On a side note, I don't hate you, just think you are an ignorant tool.

First of all, Harrell was a stretch and had all the signs of going no where, no expert in their right mind had this guy in the first round so if I am a tool then I guess a majority of experts out there are as well. Second, Rodgers fell to the Packers for a reason, he wasn't very good. He is coming along as I would expect from someone who hasn't done anything in three years. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the pick or the reasoning behind handing him a job with no experience since the day he walked into Green Bay. I think that was a huge mistake not only for the Packers but for Rodgers. Competition helps you get better. Simply telling you that you are the guy doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of good and it definitely shows right now. Rodgers would be a better QB if he had to actually compete for a position on the roster let alone handed the #2 job outright. Crosby? I don't recall hacking on Crosby, I recall not being happy when all things being equal we didn't keep the player with the experience. It was a tie in camp if you remember. I also stated several times that it wasn't a decision I would be able to make. You really need to get your facts straight, your blind hatred does nothing but distort the reality of what was said.

It's really sad that your eternal optimism over a player that has only competed in football for only one season (and not even every game), in the past 4 years is deserving of praise, kudos, and atta-boys. He has been injured every year for the past 4 now going on 5. And you really think this guy has a chance? He hasn't even played the game let alone had the work ethic to get strong enough to stave off injuries.


Never let reality interfere with your logic.

[cpk1994]

I was a little surprised by Wynn being let go this soon although we are fairly deep at running back so we knew someone had to go and probably one or two more before it's all said and done. Francis again plays at a position we are deep at and there are clearly more talented guys in front of him. Justin Harrell, no surprise that he now can't play until week 7 if at all. If this were Cledius Hunt everyone would be calling for him to be cut, but for whatever reason everyone still has high hopes that Harrell can contribute. Personally I think the guy is a bust primarily becaue he hasn't been healthy since his Junior year at college (and I don't think he played every game that year, I could be wrong). At the very least he for all intents and purposes didn't play his senior year, barely played last year, and probably won't play this year. That's 3 seasons of football and you don't get better when you don't play. We need to get him healthy, on the roster, then cut him before we get stuck with the injury payments...Comparing Cleditus Hunt to Justin Harrel is plain idotic. This is only Harrel's second year. Thats why people are stilling cutting him a little slack. Hunt, you seem tyo forget, had been in the league several seasons and was given a fat contract. He then proceded to stink up the joint. People wanted Hunt gone becuase he wasn't coming close to the prduction expected from the contract given him. Harrel is still basically a rookie.If yu can't see that is why some people still have hope for Harrell, then you truely are blind.

Why am I not surprised by your blind hatred of fellow man. The facts are against you so you attack me. Not many people supported Cledius Hunt and most everyone can agree the guy was a waste. By comparing a player who has as of yet been healthy enough to even play the game the past 3 years who was an overall number one pick vs a guy who had one good season, got paid a lot, then sucked, isn't a stretch. In FACT, it is just about the same thing, with one difference: At least we got 1 year of production out of Hunt and a few million dollar a piece tackles in comparison to a handful of games where Harrell made no impact. Outside of that, I guess they are pretty much in the same boat. Harrell has not been healthy almost his entire college/NFL career. He has what is obviously a serious back injury that I doubt he will be able to come back from. His triceps injury was a serious enough one that not many people come back from and now he has another injury. You can hope for him in 2009, if in fact he doesn't break a nail.

As far as your hate speech, I suggest you take a long look in that mirror inside of your glass house before you go throwing any more stones....You jsut made my point for me. People knew Hunt was a waste becuase they had several seasons to make that distinction. Harrell is only had one. That is why people are still cutting Harrell some slack and still willing to give him a chance. You on the other hand, proclaim players busts on draft day and refuse to give them any chance(Rodgers, Crosby to name two) On that basis alone it is ludicrous to compare to Hunt just yet. On a side note, I don't hate you, just think you are an ignorant tool.

First of all, Harrell was a stretch and had all the signs of going no where, no expert in their right mind had this guy in the first round so if I am a tool then I guess a majority of experts out there are as well. Second, Rodgers fell to the Packers for a reason, he wasn't very good. He is coming along as I would expect from someone who hasn't done anything in three years. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the pick or the reasoning behind handing him a job with no experience since the day he walked into Green Bay. I think that was a huge mistake not only for the Packers but for Rodgers. Competition helps you get better. Simply telling you that you are the guy doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of good and it definitely shows right now. Rodgers would be a better QB if he had to actually compete for a position on the roster let alone handed the #2 job outright. Crosby? I don't recall hacking on Crosby, I recall not being happy when all things being equal we didn't keep the player with the experience. It was a tie in camp if you remember. I also stated several times that it wasn't a decision I would be able to make. You really need to get your facts straight, your blind hatred does nothing but distort the reality of what was said.

It's really sad that your eternal optimism over a player that has only competed in football for only one season (and not even every game), in the past 4 years is deserving of praise, kudos, and atta-boys. He has been injured every year for the past 4 now going on 5. And you really think this guy has a chance? He hasn't even played the game let alone had the work ethic to get strong enough to stave off injuries.


Never let reality interfere with your logic.

You need to get your facts straight:

1. Harrell was initally projected to go higher than where he did but his injury knocked him to the end of the first round on some boards.

2. Now your making uyp things as I haven't gven any "atta boys" or anything like that to Harrell nor am I eternally optimistic. I am just willing to give him more than one season to do something, something you cant becuase you hate the player and it helps further your Anti-TT agenda.

3. You bagged on Crosby his first sub-par game claiming the Packers should have kept Rayner over him. OF course I hope you enjoyed the taste of your foot thanks to Mason.

4. As for Rodgers, we know you want him to fail 1.becuase you hated the pick. and 2. Becuase your boy Craig Nall isn't Aaron. This shows in your refusal to give credit to him without using backhanded compliments. As for your competition argument, Rodgers had competition, but your boy Nall flat out SUCKED.

Never let your Anti-TT bias cloud reality.

[run pMc]

Stepping aside from the arguing with my own rambling thoughts...


Hindsights 20/20. Good deal at the time. Shame Harrell, Pickett, and Jolly all got hurt or in trouble.


I totally agree with this. Considering what TO and Moss got traded for...getting a R2 for Williams was a pretty good deal. If TT knew Favre was going to waffle so much about his retirement and then want to come back, I'm guessing he doesn't draft Brohm. Time will tell if Brohm pans out.
Please note that I am NOT saying this is Favre's fault.


Even if you don't trade Williams, he isn't going to want to play for the tender. His leverage is to holdout. So Justin Harrell or no, Williams might not even have been on the field until next week. At which time I am sure his hamstrings would have been just fine.


Also agree with this...most guys HATE having to sign a tender. Talented guy, but IMO not as good as Kampmann or worth that kind of money.

I expected TT to add another body at the DT spot with the Williams trade, and was surprised he didn't. I can only guess he expected the current young guys (Hunter, Muir, Montgomery, etc.) to step up and be able to fill in, along with Jenkins and Harrell. Look, there are plenty of DLine guys on the roster...it's up to them to perform, and up to the coaches to put them in places where they can perform.

I recall reading one story about how, had Harrell been healthy, he would have been a borderline top 10 pick. I don't have a problem with TT rolling the dice for a guy like that. I wouldn't be surprised if TT takes a look at a late cut for a DT. Right now I agree they look thin due to injuries, Jolly's legal situation, and the way the DT's have performed thus far.

[ThunderDan]

First of all, Harrell was a stretch and had all the signs of going no where, no expert in their right mind had this guy in the first round so if I am a tool then I guess a majority of experts out there are as well. Second, Rodgers fell to the Packers for a reason, he wasn't very good. He is coming along as I would expect from someone who hasn't done anything in three years. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the pick or the reasoning behind handing him a job with no experience since the day he walked into Green Bay. I think that was a huge mistake not only for the Packers but for Rodgers. Competition helps you get better. Simply telling you that you are the guy doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of good and it definitely shows right now. Rodgers would be a better QB if he had to actually compete for a position on the roster let alone handed the #2 job outright. Crosby? I don't recall hacking on Crosby, I recall not being happy when all things being equal we didn't keep the player with the experience. It was a tie in camp if you remember. I also stated several times that it wasn't a decision I would be able to make. You really need to get your facts straight, your blind hatred does nothing but distort the reality of what was said.



Merlin-

Who are these "experts" that you are using as support for your postion? And please don't say any ESPN or other sporting news site guys. The reason they work in media is because they aren't talented enough to work for an NFL team.

Those guys would get a "woody" and jump ship to an NFL team in a minute if they were asked.