TT vs Sherman

[Jerry Tagge]

Ted Thompson's GM record after 3 seasons: 25-23.

Mike Sherman's GM record after 3 seasons: 34-14.

I can't believe Packers fans think the franchise's savior is a GM who is 9 games worse than Mike Sherman.

[SnakeLH2006]

Ted Thompson's GM record after 3 seasons: 25-23.

Mike Sherman's GM record after 3 seasons: 34-14.

I can't believe Packers fans think the franchise's savior is a GM who is 9 games worse than Mike Sherman.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/packer/img/news/aug06/sander819.jpg

[BallHawk]

Sherman inherited a talented team.

TT didn't.

Sherman's team peaked in 2001 and then went downhill.

Ted's team is still improving.

HE is still the savior.

[Bretsky]

Sherman inherited a talented team.

TT didn't.

Sherman's team peaked in 2001 and then went downhill.

Ted's team is still improving.

HE is still the savior.


Ron Wolf was the savior; he brough us Favre, Holmgren, and after a title.

TT, he's like a disciple right now trying to work his way to that status.

I hope he succeeds :!:

[BallHawk]

So is TT the role of Paul?

[Jerry Tagge]

Sherman inherited a talented team.

TT didn't.

Sherman's team peaked in 2001 and then went downhill.

Ted's team is still improving.

HE is still the savior.
TT didn't inherit a talented team? He inherited a team that went a combined 44-20 the previous four seasons.

Compare that to Sherman who inherited a team that went a combined 41-23 the previous four seasons.

So it appears that TT inherited a more talented team than Sherman.

Sherman's Packers went 12-4 in 2002 so I don't see how you can say they peaked in 2001.

Sherman's Packers went to the playoffs every year he was GM and won 3 straight division titles. TT's Packers missed the playoffs his first 2 years.

Sherman's Packers always had a winning season. TT's Packers had a losing season his first year and a .500 season his second year.

Don't get me wrong, I cheered the day Sherman was fired as GM and cheered even more the day TT fired him as coach. It was TT's best move to date.

However, to say TT is the Packers savior because of one good year would be like voting Lindy Infante greatest coach in Packers history because of one good year.

Oh wait, Packers fans did vote Infante greatest coach ever after the 1989 season. How did he do afterwards?

[Jerry Tagge]

Ted Thompson's GM record after 3 seasons: 25-23.

Mike Sherman's GM record after 3 seasons: 34-14.

I can't believe Packers fans think the franchise's savior is a GM who is 9 games worse than Mike Sherman.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/packer/img/news/aug06/sander819.jpg
http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/020/788/03F.jpg

[Lurker64]

It's unreasonable to attribute the team's performance to the GM in any GM's first year, since no GM really has anything to do with the bulk of the team that is on the field in his first year. If we apply this (reasonable) standard fairly we get that:

Thompson's record for seasons 2-3: 21-11
Sherman's record for seasons 2-3: 24-8

What doomed Sherman was not how well his team performed on the field towards the beginning of his tenure, but because of how gutted and topheavy the roster was towards the end because Sherman was always gambling in FA or the draft and his moves seldom paid off. Sherman inherited a good team that got old and worse as he was the GM. Thompson inherited an old and topheavy team and has improved the roster significantly.

Is Thompson the savior? I don't see him walking on water any time soon, but let's see if we can win another superbowl before we give a definite answer here. Has he done a good job as a GM so far? Yes. Has he done some bad things as a GM? Yes, but the good outweighs the bad.

[Jerry Tagge]

It's unreasonable to attribute the team's performance to the GM in any GM's first year, since no GM really has anything to do with the bulk of the team that is on the field in his first year. If we apply this (reasonable) standard fairly we get that:

Thompson's record for seasons 2-3: 21-11
Sherman's record for seasons 2-3: 24-8

What doomed Sherman was not how well his team performed on the field towards the beginning of his tenure, but because of how gutted and topheavy the roster was towards the end because Sherman was always gambling in FA or the draft and his moves seldom paid off. Sherman inherited a good team that got old and worse as he was the GM. Thompson inherited an old and topheavy team and has improved the roster significantly.

Is Thompson the savior? I don't see him walking on water any time soon, but let's see if we can win another superbowl before we give a definite answer here. Has he done a good job as a GM so far? Yes. Has he done some bad things as a GM? Yes, but the bad outweighs the good.
I don't agree with your overall assesment of TT but this is a very reasoned and well thought out post.

Thanks for the response.

[SnakeLH2006]

Ted Thompson's GM record after 3 seasons: 25-23.

Mike Sherman's GM record after 3 seasons: 34-14.

I can't believe Packers fans think the franchise's savior is a GM who is 9 games worse than Mike Sherman.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/packer/img/news/aug06/sander819.jpg
http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/020/788/03F.jpg

I ain't defending TT, just saying BJ Sander was a gem making a joke. Sherman was a very good X's and O's coach and a shitty GM (although he had one intangible that most overlook on here....he was able to be sociable enough to get his players to rally under him as a Coach and GM...He did what he thought was best for his "current" players and listened to them. Those social skills go a long way not only as an NFL GM but as any good manager of any kind. BE FUCKING AWARE AND ASTUTE and not a socially ackward tard. TT has his good drafts and is an astute evaluator of talent.... yet he also has his Harrell "gem" and a young harem of boys praying, just fucking praying to get out that basement he has them isolated in. Reading them stories, does not a child toucher make ok IMO. TT is lacking in the social HR graces bigtime....awkward mofo IMHO as that is 1/3 the job. Quit pissing off your players you douchebag TT. We'll be stuck as a 9 win team with no upside for years till he figures that shit out.

[Tarlam!]

(...)Those social skills go a long way not only as an NFL GM but as any good manager of any kind. BE FUCKING AWARE AND ASTUTE and not a socially ackward tard.


So what if TT doesn't listen to his players? He has to be above that. If Sherman did listen to say, Brett Favre, then that just proves that he was a worse GM than I already thought he was.

One publicized problem with Coach Sherman is that he didn't listen to his staff- That is surely a poor management trait.

TT needs to dialogue with the scouting department first, the coaches second and finally, the media up to a point. He doesn't even need to be polite to players in his position.

M3 needs to listen to his staff, then his players. So, comparing Sherman the Coach to TT on who listens to players is asinine, IMHO.

[SnakeLH2006]

(...)Those social skills go a long way not only as an NFL GM but as any good manager of any kind. BE FUCKING AWARE AND ASTUTE and not a socially ackward tard.


So what if TT doesn't listen to his players? He has to be above that. If Sherman did listen to say, Brett Favre, then that just proves that he was a worse GM than I already thought he was.

One publicized problem with Coach Sherman is that he didn't listen to his staff- That is surely a poor management trait.

TT needs to dialogue with the scouting department first, the coaches second and finally, the media up to a point. He doesn't even need to be polite to players in his position.

M3 needs to listen to his staff, then his players. So, comparing Sherman the Coach to TT on who listens to players is asinine, IMHO.

I'm not EVEN talking bout Brett the Jet, but one thing rings true, as much of an ass clown Sherman was as a GM, he still had 100% solidarity as a GM....I like TT as a talent evaluator, but the dude is an ass-clown when it comes to getting peeps to accept him. It means nothing??? Loyalty is HUGE, fucking HUGE, wait till these young guys wanna resign and TT lowballs them..Nothing Snake hates worse than someone lying to your face or even worse, not telling you ANYTHING (where you stand, any inkling...)

....I don't know about you, but I want to know if I'm valued or not, as I've been in management for years... 1/3 of that is at least being knowledgeable of your staff and on speaking terms, as communication is key. I like him as a talent evaluator GM but TT is more or less (in layman terms) an Internet nerd with no social skills. I didn't want to have to do it, but I realize why you defend TT...I mean hey your high school pic wasn't the best yo...Sorry to see that....but happy to see you make some money from FOX.

http://www.wwdforum.com/uploads/images/rich2741/2005-11-21_205304_Peter_Griffen_is_Micheal_Moore.jpg

[Kiwon]

I'd like to revisit this thread after the season.

The criticism or defense of TT's performance will become more justified after this 4th season.

BTW, given Farve's critical inside account of his dealings with TT, I'd love to hear about Sherman's experience as well. Sherman's too classy to do a tell-all interview like Farve did, but it would be interesting to compare Thompson's role in their exits out of Green Bay.

[MJZiggy]

You want loyalty? Sherman may have talked to his players and was personable (yet reportedly wouldn't listen to anyone), but TT has this silly little habit of renewing guys' contracts before they come due. Snake, you're worried what's gonna happen when guys' contracts come due? Ask Aaron Kampman or Donald Driver or Al Harris. When TT values a player, he gives them a new contract. He doesn't need to say shit to them, though I remember a publicized conversation or two he had joking with Favre about chew on the sidelines...convenient to forget stuff like that.

And Tagge, you know bringing this up, someone's gonna want to compare TT's current roster with Sherman's current roster.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Speaking for myself, I liked Mike Sherman when he was hired because the alternative was Ray Rhodes. Eventually, as I witnessed his drafts, I lost faith in him as a GM. Likewise, as I witnessed his coaching. I can't speak to how he interacted behind closed doors with his players, but I can tell you this: his time management skills as a coach on game day had me climbing the walls. Brett saved Sherman's ass too many times to count!

TT's biggest asset is M3, no doubt in my mind.

[Tarlam!]

....I don't know about you, but I want to know if I'm valued or not, as I've been in management for years... 1/3 of that is at least being knowledgeable of your staff and on speaking terms

Yeah, but being an assistant manager at a Taco Bell store hardly puts you in the same league as the GM of an NFL Franchise, does it? And you need to be better at personal relationships in your line of work; getting help is a bitch in the fast food business.

See? I can be even more childish and immature than you.

You're twisting the discussion to suit your line of thought. You compared Sherman's "rah rah" style as a coach to TT's introversion as a GM and you profess Sherman the GM got more out of his players as a result. I say that M3 is responsible for getting the most of the players. I also continue to maintain your comparison is asinine.

Don't bother replying if you feel like being a fucking moron and posting more of "my" high school pics or like-minded stuff. I am only here to discuss football.

[SkinBasket]

I'm starting to think Snake is directly related to Woodbuck.

[Tarlam!]

I'm starting to think Snake is directly related to Woodbuck.

Or Tank?

[Bretsky]

here I thought we were trying to get by these type of references to posters

[Fritz]

Those who have pointed out that it will be more accurate to revisit this thread after this season - and really, after the next - are correct.

TT has as GM had one good year. That's all. So we'll see how it plays out, though if this team seems to slips a little (depending on circumstances - injuries, for example), I think TT definitely deserves a shot again next year. I wouldn't be ready to hang the guy if the team this year does not quite live up to expectations. So we need more time to be able to give an accurate assessment.

I will add only this, though. Yes, it was only one year, but it was further than Mike Sherman the CoachGM ever took any of his teams. For all the anguish over 4th-and-26, that was just to get to the NFC Championship game.

[Bretsky]

Those who have pointed out that it will be more accurate to revisit this thread after this season - and really, after the next - are correct.

TT has as GM had one good year. That's all. So we'll see how it plays out, though if this team seems to slips a little (depending on circumstances - injuries, for example), I think TT definitely deserves a shot again next year. I wouldn't be ready to hang the guy if the team this year does not quite live up to expectations. So we need more time to be able to give an accurate assessment.

I will add only this, though. Yes, it was only one year, but it was further than Mike Sherman the CoachGM ever took any of his teams. For all the anguish over 4th-and-26, that was just to get to the NFC Championship game.

:bclap:

[GBRulz]

One thing I can think of when comparing TT vs Sherm, is that TT def makes me shake my head and say "WTF" more so than Sherm ever did. The good thing is, for the most part...they have turned out to be for the best. Well, the jury is still out on JH being a bust...our current QB situation (rookie bu's)......letting Williams go and replacing our punter and holder at the last minute.

There is no reason why this team should take a step back vs last year. We didn't have to lose any of our players and in fact, should only have improved. I think a fair assessment could be made after this year.

[RashanGary]

TT could have:

- Traded for Jared Allen by offering a 1st, 2nd and 3rd (more than the Vikings)

- Kept Corey Williams

- Signed Alen Faneca

- Convinced Brett this is the year and to show up to off season work


Imagine a DL of

Allen/KGB
Jolly/Jenkins
Pickett/Williams
Kampman/Montgomery

And an OL of

Clifton
Colledge
Spitz
Faneca
Tausher


Who do you think would win the Monday Night opener then :) :)


I think TT will continue to make good decisions and we'll get this talented, but it won't be a one year shot where we crumble under the cap the following year. It will be real. It will be lasting. I think TT has the approach of someone who wants a dynasty. It's fun to think about what could have been this year and watch those with no long term vision squirm with anxiety though. And remember, NE took a similar shot and it didn't pay off. Let's see how those short term decisions pay off this year and next year and if it ultimately gives them a sB. I'm thinking not.

[RashanGary]

Imagine a pass rushing group of:

KGB
Allen
Jenkins
Kampman

With Poppinga, Hawk, Barnett and Bigby waiting to blitz.
With Al and Wood holding down the outside

That's equally talented as teh NYG line and the rest of our team is a lot better. Damn it. I think we should all just shoot ourselves in the head right now.

[b bulldog]

TT is taking the Packers a step back this year so they can move two steps ahead in the next two years.

[RashanGary]

TT is taking the Packers a step back this year so they can move two steps ahead in the next two years.

I think that might ultimately happen.

The way I understand his boring press conferences I think he believes that if he keeps bringing in quality young players and recognizes his core players (BEFORE UFA) that he'll be able to fit the most talent under the cap and give his team the best chance to win the SB for not just one year but for many, many years.

[b bulldog]

agree and I think management had no confidence is #4 in the big games so they that enabled them to do this.

[mraynrand]

Imagine a pass rushing group of:

KGB
Allen
Jenkins
Kampman

With Poppinga, Hawk, Barnett and Bigby waiting to blitz.
With Al and Wood holding down the outside

That's equally talented as teh NYG line and the rest of our team is a lot better. Damn it. I think we should all just shoot ourselves in the head right now.

Jenkins, Kampman, Barnett, Al Harris - all brought in by Sherman the GM. I stand by Sherman as decent coach and so-so GM. I also stand by my claim that Sherman should never have been fired twice (Harlan should have let him go from both jobs at the same time). TT has a long contract and his future is uncertain. I believe that in time he will be known as a very good GM, perhaps one of the best, despite the kind of flaws Snake points out. Sherman is a college coach. It looks as if no team wanted him as their GM. There is a reason for that.

But Jerry's point is still completely valid - Sherman's record stacks up well with any three year run of GMs. The most critical reason Sherman was let go was that Harlan all along believed in separation of GM and coach and wanted to leave that legacy - and at the same time, Sherman had an abysmal off season as GM (Losing McKenzie the way he did, changing defensive coordinators in favor of a scheme that has never really worked in the NFL and for whom Sherman didn't have the personnel, having a terrible draft, losing the team, losing at home to Minnesota in the playoffs) - and just a general sense that the team was going in the wrong direction long-term.

[b bulldog]

sHERMAN TOTALLY SOLD OUT THE FUTURE FOR THE PRESENT AND STILL COULDN'T GET THE JOB DONE. Sherman was let go before all of this bit him in the butt.

[Scott Campbell]

http://tarapfeifer.com/albums/stuff/mike_sherman_sleeping.jpeg

[pbmax]

There is one problem with positively attributing this trait to Sherman. It ignores his constant ability to have his team come out flat and unprepared to play. Combine this with his unique ability to non-adjust at halftime and the reason Sherman developed this ability is clear.

He frequently lost games he had no business losing. Sherman's players may have reacted to his emotional appeals on several occassions, but that was usually after a stretch of uninspired play.


he was able to be sociable enough to get his players to rally under him as a Coach and GM...He did what he thought was best for his "current" players and listened to them..

[Fritz]

pb, I'm not saying Sherman was a great GM or a bad GM or a good coach or a bad coach. I just want to say I totally agree with your point about Shermy's teams and how they so often came out flat.

It maddened me more than just about anything else he did - his crazy Tom Rossley play-calling, his aparent refusal to hold BF accountable, his weird back-end contracts for people like Mike Wahle - all of it. I just remember seeing his teams come out flat for games that you'd think they'd be sky high for. Season openers. Home openers. Playoff games. They'd sleepwalk through entire first quarters, it seemed.

It drove me nuts.

[GBRulz]

TT is taking the Packers a step back this year so they can move two steps ahead in the next two years.

We were one game away from the SB last year with the NFL's youngest team. WHY do you take one step back?

In two years, it's probably safe to assume that Harris, Woodson, Driver, Clifton, Tausher, Kampman all will be on the tailing ends of their career. Are we going to have replacements for them?

I agree with wanting to remain competitive, but I absolutely do not agree with taking a step back just to take a step back. Especially when it isn't necessary to do so. We aren't in cap trouble, we have a young team and a great HC.

[pbmax]

One more time, Corey Williams would not have played for his tender offer. He wanted a long term, big money deal. To get him to camp and in for the start of the season, T2 would have had to backup a Brinks truck to CW's house. That's foolish money for a situational player.

The grass is always greener. Williams was an inside rush specialist who is being paid like a top DT (or 3-4 DE). How did Williams perform after KGBs injury? He pretty much disappeared.

Keeping and signing your own average players when the market overvalues them is one of the ways Sherman the GM failed. When you have no depth, you then get held up at penpoint by the Eagles and KGB or Na'il Diggs. When you sign a player because you have no other choice, you have made a horrible decision. Its playing from a position of weakness.


- Kept Corey Williams

[pbmax]

I got one more and then I will be wide awake. Comparing Sherman's opening year roster to T2's is instructive. Because many of the same players making Sherman's squad very good are the same players at the top of T2s first squad. Except that each one was 4 years older. And that is nearly a lifetime in the NFL.

In 2005 Clifton had a balky knee that kept him out of practice. Ahman Green was on an injury slide and aging fast. Flanagan was at the end. Bubba Franks had Freeman's rapid aging syndrome and was mainly a blocker. Sharper now had an injury that affected his whole season. Rivera couldn't start or finish the season in Dallas. Wahle had one complete year left and then got injured in Carolina.

And there was no depth to compensate. Sherman had Barnett (who was not yet Ready For Prime Time) and Walker to add to an aging lineup and not much else. Corey Williams did not play much at all.

You can say that T2 inherited a team with a tremendous record for the previous four years, but they were all four years older, headed for the wrong side of 30 and expensive. To keep them all and hope they regain or maintain their form would make developing depth just that much harder.

[retailguy]

One more time, Corey Williams would not have played for his tender offer. He wanted a long term, big money deal. To get him to camp and in for the start of the season, T2 would have had to backup a Brinks truck to CW's house. That's foolish money for a situational player.



I'm not getting into this debate, because I think the whole thing is stupid, however, I've seen this statement two or three times elsewhere and its just wrong.

Name one guy who wouldn't play for the tender offer that didn't show up when the games started? Williams would've bitched, bellyached and moaned until this week. then he'd have been in camp busting his ass to make sure he'd get his payday NEXT season if that were his only option.

This "unequiveacle" statement is wrong. Just WRONG. Williams isn't stupid. One of Ted's "qualities" is his ability to "not negotiate" and stand firm...

So, please, just stop with this type of drivel.

[pbmax]

Walter Jones. Lance Briggs. I am sure there are more. They miss camp and come in late. That doesn't do much for the team, puts the player behind and increases the chance of injury.



One more time, Corey Williams would not have played for his tender offer. He wanted a long term, big money deal. To get him to camp and in for the start of the season, T2 would have had to backup a Brinks truck to CW's house. That's foolish money for a situational player.



I'm not getting into this debate, because I think the whole thing is stupid, however, I've seen this statement two or three times elsewhere and its just wrong.

Name one guy who wouldn't play for the tender offer that didn't show up when the games started? Williams would've bitched, bellyached and moaned until this week. then he'd have been in camp busting his ass to make sure he'd get his payday NEXT season if that were his only option.

This "unequiveacle" statement is wrong. Just WRONG. Williams isn't stupid. One of Ted's "qualities" is his ability to "not negotiate" and stand firm...

So, please, just stop with this type of drivel.

[pbmax]

Terrell Suggs reported three weeks late this year.

[mraynrand]

In two years, it's probably safe to assume that Harris, Woodson, Driver, Clifton, Tausher, Kampman all will be on the tailing ends of their career. Are we going to have replacements for them? .

Yes. Yes. That's what's so good about Thompson's approach. I'd say you already have solid replacements for Harris, Driver, Clifton, and Tauscher - possibly Woodson - on the team. In some cases the replacements may be upgrades. And he's going to keep adding lots of guys to compete for those positions that open up.

I agree with you GB, there's no reason to step back. But as we all know, barring injuries, Rodgers is the key. All he needs do is play well - not great - but well, and I don't think this team steps back.

[mraynrand]

I'm not getting into this debate, because I think the whole thing is stupid, however....

:D

[Tony Oday]

These are two GMs in different situations.

Sherman had a SB team ready to rock and needed to add the final piece to get over the top...he gambled on guys and missed.

TT had a cash strapped team with little young talent. He rebuilt the team and put the pieces in place for a great run for a long time.

Also remember if Ron Wolf missed on Favre he wouldnt have been half the god we think he is. He drafted T Buck! ;)

[Pugger]

I don't understand all this love for C. Williams. Last season when Jolly went on IR and Williams had ample opportunity to shine as a pass rusher, but he sure didn't impress me. :roll:

[pbmax]

Albert Haynesworth signed his tender as camp opened but has language that will prevent the Titans from using the cap next year. Charles Woodson came back the week before the season started with the Raiders.

How about Ryan Grant missing the start of camp then tweaking a hamstring? He refused to sign the tender, although this was an exclusive rights FA tender not franchise or transition.

[mraynrand]

I don't understand all this love for C. Williams. Last season when Jolly went on IR and Williams had ample opportunity to shine as a pass rusher, but he sure didn't impress me. :roll:

Agree. A lot of his sack came against Detroit. He was a solid, solid backup in a heavily rotating system. I think Cleveland is going to be disappointed in him as a 3-4 end.

[Scott Campbell]

I think of GM performance in terms of roster trajectory. Sherman took a roster that was high, and pointed high, and set its course on a downward slope. Ted took that downward slope - flattened it out very quickly to stop the bleeding, and turned it around and got it pointed very high once again.

Rosters don't turn on a dime. They move more like a battleship.

[pbmax]

Sean Gilbert (sat out a year), Steelers wide receiver Andre Hastings. How could I forget Bubba Franks missing all of camp in 2005?

[mraynrand]

I think of GM performance in terms of roster trajectory. Sherman took a roster that was high, and pointed high, and set its course on a downward slope. Ted took that downward slope - flattened it out very quickly to stop the bleeding, and turned it around and got it pointed very high once again.

Rosters don't turn on a dime. They move more like a battleship.

I agree with your overall assessment about trajectories, but I disagree a bit with Sherman. Three factors: 1)He was GM only 3 years 2) He had the 'win now' approach, which led him to spend picks for guys who could play now - trading up for Walker, trading a #2 for Harris 3) He had one terrible draft - 2004 -otherwise he was pretty good - Two probowlers in 2002, and two very good starters in 2003 (Harris and Barnett)

Ron Wolf had a pretty thin draft in 1999, ultimately getting two good starters in McKenzie and Driver. In 2004, Sherman got Williams and Wells - not anywhere near as good as 1999, but similar in being thin. Wolf Followed 1999 up with possibly his best GM year ever in 2000 drafting 4 very strong players and trading for Green. He changed the trajectory in one draft. Since Sherman had but three drafts and showed he was building for 'this year' there's no reason to think that he would have changed in 2005, but it's not certain, and with one draft, he could have changed that trajectory.

[retailguy]

One more time, Corey Williams would not have played for his tender offer.



Name one guy who wouldn't play for the tender offer that didn't show up when the games started?




Terrell Suggs reported three weeks late this year.

3 whole weeks huh? But he played after that? So how does this prove he "wouldn't play" for the tender offer? Was he a pain in the ass? YES. Did he play? YES. So would have Williams, had Ted decided that was what he wanted.





Walter Jones. Lance Briggs. I am sure there are more. They miss camp and come in late. That doesn't do much for the team, puts the player behind and increases the chance of injury.


Isn't this what I said? Didn't they play? Even Lance "I'll NEVER play for the Bears again?" Briggs. That Lance Briggs? Walter Jones played on the damn tag for three seasons. But he played. Every game.

[mraynrand]

How could I forget Bubba Franks missing all of camp in 2005?

How could you? And it worked out so well for Bubba, didn't it?

Thanks for all the examples, BTW. We're all shitting our pants waiting for Grant to go in the tank now.

[mraynrand]

One more time, Corey Williams would not have played for his tender offer.



Name one guy who wouldn't play for the tender offer that didn't show up when the games started?




Terrell Suggs reported three weeks late this year.

3 whole weeks huh? But he played after that? So how does this prove he "wouldn't play" for the tender offer? Was he a pain in the ass? YES. Did he play? YES. So would have Williams, had Ted decided that was what he wanted.





Walter Jones. Lance Briggs. I am sure there are more. They miss camp and come in late. That doesn't do much for the team, puts the player behind and increases the chance of injury.


Isn't this what I said? Didn't they play? Even Lance "I'll NEVER play for the Bears again?" Briggs. That Lance Briggs? Walter Jones played on the damn tag for three seasons. But he played. Every game.




I'm not getting into this debate, because I think the whole thing is stupid, however....

[retailguy]

Sean Gilbert (sat out a year), Steelers wide receiver Andre Hastings. How could I forget Bubba Franks missing all of camp in 2005?

So you got two. Out of potentially 32 per season....

Bubba missed CAMP. But he played in the games. Which is what I said.

Williams would've played. The tag was more money than his ENTIRE rookie contract. He'd have been there. Just as I said.

[mraynrand]

Sean Gilbert (sat out a year), Steelers wide receiver Andre Hastings. How could I forget Bubba Franks missing all of camp in 2005?

So you got two. Out of potentially 32 per season....

Bubba missed CAMP. But he played in the games. Which is what I said.

Williams would've played. The tag was more money than his ENTIRE rookie contract. He'd have been there. Just as I said.




I'm not getting into this debate, because I think the whole thing is stupid, however....

[retailguy]

I'm not getting into this debate, because I think the whole thing is stupid, however....

:D


Sometimes you can be an ass... :P

This thread is about Sherman Vs. Ted.. AGAIN. Where did I say anything about that? Hmmm. :P

BTW - Hoosier and Tyrone are sounding off again in the romper room. Your ass is needed over there... :twisted:

[mraynrand]

I'm not getting into this debate, because I think the whole thing is stupid, however....

:D


Sometimes you can be an ass... :P



Agreed.

[Scott Campbell]

I think of GM performance in terms of roster trajectory. Sherman took a roster that was high, and pointed high, and set its course on a downward slope. Ted took that downward slope - flattened it out very quickly to stop the bleeding, and turned it around and got it pointed very high once again.

Rosters don't turn on a dime. They move more like a battleship.

I agree with your overall assessment about trajectories, but I disagree a bit with Sherman. Three factors: 1)He was GM only 3 years 2) He had the 'win now' approach, which led him to spend picks for guys who could play now - trading up for Walker, trading a #2 for Harris 3) He had one terrible draft - 2004 -otherwise he was pretty good - Two probowlers in 2002, and two very good starters in 2003 (Harris and Barnett)

Ron Wolf had a pretty thin draft in 1999, ultimately getting two good starters in McKenzie and Driver. In 2004, Sherman got Williams and Wells - not anywhere near as good as 1999, but similar in being thin. Wolf Followed 1999 up with possibly his best GM year ever in 2000 drafting 4 very strong players and trading for Green. He changed the trajectory in one draft. Since Sherman had but three drafts and showed he was building for 'this year' there's no reason to think that he would have changed in 2005, but it's not certain, and with one draft, he could have changed that trajectory.


My gripe with Sherman is that he worked the GM job as if he were also the coach. He gambled alot and fell in love with too many players on his draft board that he had to trade up for. I understood why he did it. But he missed, and decimated the roster in doing so. I didn't like the way Sherman managed the salary cap either. Though I think Ted has swung too far to the other extreme in that regard. I'd like to see him going for one Pickett or Woodson type player each year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

TT is taking the Packers a step back this year so they can move two steps ahead in the next two years.

Welcome back. We missed you. We might be able to get along--now that I don't have to defend Brett anymore.
:D

[pbmax]

There is a cost to holding out, whether its injuries (Bubba, Grant, Woodson) or concessions (Haynesworth, Briggs). Unless you are willing to pay the freight for the player, the tag is a game of chicken and it affects play on the field. Even Briggs was affected.

Jones might be the exception, but even he, by missing camp for 2 plus years likely was hurt by it. The concession is that you will get nothing for the player next year.

Taking this chance on a player who was not worth the contract he was going to get. He wasn't that good.


Isn't this what I said? Didn't they play? Even Lance "I'll NEVER play for the Bears again?" Briggs. That Lance Briggs? Walter Jones played on the damn tag for three seasons. But he played. Every game.

[retailguy]

There is a cost to holding out, whether its injuries (Bubba, Grant, Woodson) or concessions (Haynesworth, Briggs). Unless you are willing to pay the freight for the player, the tag is a game of chicken and it affects play on the field. Even Briggs was affected.

Jones might be the exception, but even he, by missing camp for 2 plus years likely was hurt by it. The concession is that you will get nothing for the player next year.

Taking this chance on a player who was not worth the contract he was going to get. He wasn't that good.



Yes, there is a cost. I think if we asked Sean Gilbert today about that cost, he'd tell us he would have made a different decision.

Ultimately I think that's why Ted let Williams go. He didn't think the battle was worth it.

But none of this proves that Williams wouldn't have played. Plenty of evidence suggests the opposite. There is also plenty of evidence that had he played on the tag and not been as effective, he'd have still been better than the depth we currently have. I think there is merit to THAT point. Others don't, but again, that doesn't prove he wouldn't have played.

[mraynrand]

My gripe with Sherman is that he worked the GM job as if he were also the coach. He gambled a lot and fell in love with too many players on his draft board that he had to trade up for. I understood why he did it. But he missed, and decimated the roster in doing so.

I completely agree. That's why I always cite that 30-40% success rate for any pick at any point in the draft. Combining picks to move up results in a thin roster, and when you put your eggs in smaller baskets, they are still going to stink 60-70% of the time.

[RashanGary]

The last 3 years set the table for Thompson. The next 5 years will define him.

[Scott Campbell]

TT is taking the Packers a step back this year so they can move two steps ahead in the next two years.

Welcome back. We missed you. We might be able to get along--now that I don't have to defend Brett anymore.
:D




This seems as good a spot as any to mention that Utah beat Michigan in Ann Arbor last week.

[pbmax]

I may have overstated my thesis. Williams would not have willingly played for just the tender, and its clear the Pack didn't think he was worth the long term deal he wanted.

And that relationship carries increased risk. Williams would have missed a good portion of the offseason, been more likely to be injured and likely wanted a concession of not using the tag again the following season to report during camp. Who knows where his head would have been.

He disappeared after KGBs injury. Why have that guy back again? Get someone else in there who might be better. An overpaid veteran who starts because you fear there isn't a replacement on the roster is the first sign of a declining team. Better to try Jolly or Harrell.



There is a cost to holding out, whether its injuries (Bubba, Grant, Woodson) or concessions (Haynesworth, Briggs). Unless you are willing to pay the freight for the player, the tag is a game of chicken and it affects play on the field. Even Briggs was affected.

Jones might be the exception, but even he, by missing camp for 2 plus years likely was hurt by it. The concession is that you will get nothing for the player next year.

Taking this chance on a player who was not worth the contract he was going to get. He wasn't that good.



Yes, there is a cost. I think if we asked Sean Gilbert today about that cost, he'd tell us he would have made a different decision.

Ultimately I think that's why Ted let Williams go. He didn't think the battle was worth it.

But none of this proves that Williams wouldn't have played. Plenty of evidence suggests the opposite. There is also plenty of evidence that had he played on the tag and not been as effective, he'd have still been better than the depth we currently have. I think there is merit to THAT point. Others don't, but again, that doesn't prove he wouldn't have played.

[red]

sherman left us with no depth and drove us into salary cap hell

TT has got us out of cap hell, and put us in cap heaven, but now he doesn't want to do anything with it

both have their faults, but their faults were like polar opposites of each other

[cpk1994]

Ted Thompson's GM record after 3 seasons: 25-23.

Mike Sherman's GM record after 3 seasons: 34-14.

I can't believe Packers fans think the franchise's savior is a GM who is 9 games worse than Mike Sherman.Hey, Tank. How's it going? Still :beat: I see. Good to see you anyway. :)

[RashanGary]

sherman left us with no depth and drove us into salary cap hell

TT has got us out of cap hell, and put us in cap heaven, but now he doesn't want to do anything with it

both have their faults, but their faults were like polar opposites of each other


It's a little early to say we know TT's fault is his unwillingness to spend his money. Maybe he believes he can do better by determining his core players before UFA. UFA, by nature of supply and demand, tends to hurt teams more than it helps them. When you don't have many core young players, you're going to go through a time where it's hard to spend the money. If you start bringing in more of those core young players you're going to rise to the top as they mature and you'll have to spend it if you want to keep them around. The advantage of keeping your own is the price.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Ted Thompson's GM record after 3 seasons: 25-23.

Mike Sherman's GM record after 3 seasons: 34-14.

I can't believe Packers fans think the franchise's savior is a GM who is 9 games worse than Mike Sherman.Hey, Tank. How's it going? Still :beat: I see. Good to see you anyway. :)

How is he beating a dead horse when the title of the thread is "TT vs. Sherman"? Seems like a legitimate comparison to look at their records.

[cpk1994]

Ted Thompson's GM record after 3 seasons: 25-23.

Mike Sherman's GM record after 3 seasons: 34-14.

I can't believe Packers fans think the franchise's savior is a GM who is 9 games worse than Mike Sherman.Hey, Tank. How's it going? Still :beat: I see. Good to see you anyway. :)

How is he beating a dead horse when the title of the thread is "TT vs. Sherman"? Seems like a legitimate comparison to look at their records.It's a dead horse becuase its the argument that Tank has been making since the day TT was hired. We don't need Tank II here.

[bobblehead]

I'm stunned this got ONE reply much less 4 pages. I think tagge was being sarcastic....he HAD to have been kidding.

Tagge...never mind.

[mraynrand]

If this is the same Jerry Tagge as on the JS forums - hey Jerry, when did you move from Chicago to Minnesota?

[gbgary]

did anyone notice the sherman lead texas a&m aggies opened the season with a very embarrassing loss to arkansas state...18-14?!

[cpk1994]

did anyone notice the sherman lead texas a&m aggies opened the season with a very embarrassing loss to arkansas state...18-14?!Yes, there was a thread about it.

[mraynrand]

did anyone notice the sherman lead texas a&m aggies opened the season with a very embarrassing loss to arkansas state...18-14?!Yes, there was a thread about it.

Yes - and everyone agreed that it was definitive proof, at last, that Sherman is the worst coach in the history of football.

[Brohm]

Oo Tank is playing soccer with the hornet's nest again :shock:

[mission]

did anyone notice the sherman lead texas a&m aggies opened the season with a very embarrassing loss to arkansas state...18-14?!Yes, there was a thread about it.

Yes - and everyone agreed that it was definitive proof, at last, that Sherman is the worst coach in the history of football.

And there it is.

Who's gonna do the Wikipedia entry?

[pbmax]

I keep trying to update it but a user named "APB<3sherm" keeps undoing the changes. I am considering submitting it to mediation.



Yes - and everyone agreed that it was definitive proof, at last, that Sherman is the worst coach in the history of football.

And there it is.

Who's gonna do the Wikipedia entry?

[mission]

I keep trying to update it but a user named "APB<3sherm" keeps undoing the changes. I am considering submitting it to mediation.



Yes - and everyone agreed that it was definitive proof, at last, that Sherman is the worst coach in the history of football.

And there it is.

Who's gonna do the Wikipedia entry?

thanks anyway! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[GBRulz]

sherman left us with no depth and drove us into salary cap hell

TT has got us out of cap hell, and put us in cap heaven, but now he doesn't want to do anything with it

both have their faults, but their faults were like polar opposites of each other

I don't credit TT with getting us out of cap hell because the cap increased how many millions of dollars, in '06, I think? I even wonder if good ol' Sherm would have us maxed to the cap with how high the cap is these days. Yeah, probably!!

[Fred's Slacks]

I don't credit TT with getting us out of cap hell because the cap increased how many millions of dollars, in '06, I think? I even wonder if good ol' Sherm would have us maxed to the cap with how high the cap is these days. Yeah, probably!!

True, but remember with an increased cap comes increased salary's. It's still not easy to have tons of cap room. Although it does seem like more teams have room than in the past. But I think that has more to do with teams getting smarter then the increased cap.

[Scott Campbell]

I even wonder if good ol' Sherm would have us maxed to the cap with how high the cap is these days. Yeah, probably!!


Hence, Ted got us out of cap hell.

[pbmax]

That is true GBR, but no one knew what the number was going to be, or even if there would be a CBA.

Regardless of the eventual cap number, his savings allowed the Packers to front load most of their big, new deals (Woodson, Pickett, Kampman) which meant that regardless of the future CBA number, the Packers wouldn't carry a large amount of dead money and had a tremendous amount of flexibility in deciding who to keep. Almost every Packer at this point could be released without a devastating cap hit.

If I was a player's agent that wouldn't be comforting. But for the coaches and personnel guys, that's a great thing.


I don't credit TT with getting us out of cap hell because the cap increased how many millions of dollars, in '06, I think? I even wonder if good ol' Sherm would have us maxed to the cap with how high the cap is these days. Yeah, probably!!

[Scott Campbell]

If Sherman was still here, we'd still be overpaying Sharper. Wahle would have been restructured (not such a bad thing). Favre would still be here. Longwell would still be here. Lots of other good young players wouldn't be here. Many of our vets would have had their season salaries guaranteed so we could spread the hit out just like a signing bonus. In other words their cap hits for this year would be paying for their salaries from 06 and 07. We still have all kinds of dead money - a Shermy salary cap staple. And the Packers would make Dan Snyder look like a tightwad.

And the resurgent Packers would have gone 8-8 last year.