Cry The Beloved Trees

[mraynrand]

http://www.break.com/index/hippies-wail-for-dead-trees.html

[Freak Out]

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

[mraynrand]

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

Rush's Radical (tre)egalitarianism, Kurt Vonnegut style

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think finding spirituality in nature is less ridiculous than worshipping prophets who walked the earth thousands of years ago. (that would be jews, muslims and christians)

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think finding spirituality in nature is less ridiculous than worshipping prophets who walked the earth thousands of years ago. (that would be jews, muslims and christians)

Jews don't worship prophets. Whatcha talkin about?

[texaspackerbacker]

BUSH'S radical egalitarianism? Where does a comment like that come from?

[HowardRoark]

Christians don't worship prophets.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

BUSH'S radical egalitarianism? Where does a comment like that come from?

Comes from your stupidity. You might wanna try reading.

I think this is a perfect example of why debating with you is worthless.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Christians don't worship prophets.

what the hell was Jesus?

There were thousands of prophets crawling around the mideast during Jesus's era. Jesus was one of many. It may be true that he really is uniquely the son of God.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think finding spirituality in nature is less ridiculous than worshipping prophets who walked the earth thousands of years ago. (that would be jews, muslims and christians)

Jews don't worship prophets. Whatcha talkin about?

I suppose this is true. But they revere some.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Christians don't worship prophets.

Really? What would you call praying to Saints?

[HowardRoark]

Christians don't worship prophets.

what the hell was Jesus?

There were thousands of prophets crawling around the mideast during Jesus's era. Jesus was one of many. It may be true that he really is uniquely the son of God.

He never claimed to be a prophet. He claimed to be God, who the prophets foretold.

[HowardRoark]

Christians don't worship prophets.

Really? What would you call praying to Saints?

a) wrong

b) praying to Saints

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think finding spirituality in nature is less ridiculous than worshipping prophets who walked the earth thousands of years ago. (that would be jews, muslims and christians)

Jews don't worship prophets. Whatcha talkin about?

I suppose this is true. But they revere some.

Revere? In what way?

There are no prayers, no holidays, etc.

The closest thing i can think of is leaving the door open for elijah to eat at the table at passover. That qualifies as "revere."

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Christians don't worship prophets.

Really? What would you call praying to Saints?

a) wrong

b) praying to Saints

I'm sure our catholic friends won' agree. Nice of you to pass judgement on a religion. :oops:

Either way...catholics are christians, christians worship saints.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Christians don't worship prophets.

what the hell was Jesus?

There were thousands of prophets crawling around the mideast during Jesus's era. Jesus was one of many. It may be true that he really is uniquely the son of God.

He never claimed to be a prophet. He claimed to be God, who the prophets foretold.

ok, you don't like the word prophet. How about religious kook?
There were thousands of religous kooks in the mideast during this era, all claiming to be prophets, or to be God. It is possible that Jesus was the one kook who really was God.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Christians don't worship prophets.

what the hell was Jesus?

There were thousands of prophets crawling around the mideast during Jesus's era. Jesus was one of many. It may be true that he really is uniquely the son of God.

He never claimed to be a prophet. He claimed to be God, who the prophets foretold.

ok, you don't like the word prophet. How about religious kook?
There were thousands of religous kooks in the mideast during this era, all claiming to be prophets, or to be God. It is possible that Jesus was the one kook who really was God.

Well, we will never know for sure. but, we can know that he had the best sales and marketing team. :lol:

[HowardRoark]

Christians don't worship prophets.

what the hell was Jesus?

There were thousands of prophets crawling around the mideast during Jesus's era. Jesus was one of many. It may be true that he really is uniquely the son of God.

He never claimed to be a prophet. He claimed to be God, who the prophets foretold.

ok, you don't like the word prophet. How about religious kook?
There were thousands of religous kooks in the mideast during this era, all claiming to be prophets, or to be God. It is possible that Jesus was the one kook who really was God.

Going back to your original post.....


I think finding spirituality in nature is less ridiculous than worshipping prophets who walked the earth thousands of years ago. (that would be jews, muslims and christians)

....I would say:

1) If Jesus was just a "kook", I agree, then it is less ridiculous to find spirituality in nature.

2) If Jesus is God, then you are a "kook" for not worshipping him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

....I would say:

1) If Jesus was just a "kook", I agree, then it is less ridiculous to find spirituality in nature.

2) If Jesus is God, then you are a "kook" for not worshipping him.

that's exactly equivalent to saying, "if my balls are God, then everyone is a kook who does not worship them." I suppose that is true enough; but it ignores the obvious point that we can never know for sure who or what is/was God, it requires a leap of faith to believe.

There were MANY people in the mideast with similar profiles to Jesus, people who claimed to be of the supernatural who built cult followings. IT is true that Jesus's followers were spectacularily successful and enduring. But there was a lot of sausage-making going on there. For instance, how do we even know what the true story of Jesus was? There were many gospels available, and a group of early christians got together and decided which versions of his story should count. It was a matter of arbitrary human politics to decide which gospels should be considered sacred.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

....I would say:

1) If Jesus was just a "kook", I agree, then it is less ridiculous to find spirituality in nature.

2) If Jesus is God, then you are a "kook" for not worshipping him.

that's exactly equivalent to saying, "if my balls are God, then everyone is a kook who does not worship them." I suppose that is true enough; but it ignores the obvious point that we can never know for sure who or what is/was God, it requires a leap of faith to believe.

There were MANY people in the mideast with similar profiles to Jesus, people who claimed to be of the supernatural who built cult followings. IT is true that Jesus's followers were spectacularily successful and enduring. But there was a lot of sausage-making going on there. For instance, how do we even know what the true story of Jesus was? There were many gospels available, and a group of early christians got together and decided which versions of his story should count. It was a matter of arbitrary human politics to decide which gospels should be considered sacred.

You dont' wanna get into the "forgotten"/"misplaced"/"inaccurate" gospels with the believers.

[HowardRoark]

that's exactly equivalent to saying, "if my balls are God, then everyone is a kook who does not worship them." I suppose that is true enough; but it ignores the obvious point that we can never know for sure who or what is/was God, it requires a leap of faith to believe.

I agree with all of this.

[mraynrand]

christians worship saints.

This is untrue. Christians worship God. Christians think Christ is God. 'Worship' is understood by almost every educated person to be directed at a deity.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

christians worship saints.

This is untrue. Christians worship God. Christians think Christ is God. 'Worship' is understood by almost every educated person to be directed at a deity.

You are defining Christians as it suits you. To the rest of the world...everyone that thinks jesus is the savior is a christian.


Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Catholics are Christians. Catholics say prayers to saints. Catholics worship saints.


reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

Buhbye.

[mraynrand]

christians worship saints.

This is untrue. Christians worship God. Christians think Christ is God. 'Worship' is understood by almost every educated person to be directed at a deity.

You are defining Christians as it suits you. To the rest of the world...everyone that thinks jesus is the savior is a christian.


Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Catholics are Christians. Catholics say prayers to saints. Catholics worship saints.


reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

Buhbye.

Are you really this stupid and naive. Jesus the saviour IS GOD, according to all Christians (Triune God = Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Praying to a saint is not worship. Christian believe that you can only worship God. Your definitions don't matter. What matters is what practicing Christians believe. They don't worship Saints - ever.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Praying to a saint is not worship.

I'm not so sure this is true. Christians pray to Mary and the Saints and ask them to intervene in their lives. If this is not treating them as Gods, you sure are cutting a very fine point. They are certainly supernatural beings of some sort if they can work miracles.

[mraynrand]

Praying to a saint is not worship.

I'm not so sure this is true. Christians pray to Mary and the Saints and ask them to intervene in their lives. If this is not treating them as Gods, you sure are cutting a very fine point. They are certainly supernatural beings of some sort. I think they are "devine", isn't that what beatification is all about?

Catholics pray to Mary and there is some disagreement between Christians in the prominence that Mary has. You can pray to saints and angels and people who are passed away - essentially as advocates. It doesn't mean you are worshiping them. God is worshipped because he is the author of life - the creator. You can't worship others for this - they didn't create.

[texaspackerbacker]

With all due respect to my wife and the rest of the good-hearted Catholics, what the Roman Catholic Church does and believes is pretty far removed from true BIBLICAL Christianity.

I'm not usre how many times the word "worship" appears in the Bible, but i suspect, not many. Biblical literalist Christians believe in God, fear, love, and trust God--in the words of Martin Luther. They/We believe Jesus is literally the Son of God, and that the means of salvation--obtaining eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven--which will be on earth--is the literal death and resurrection of Jesus.

As for the "teachings" of Jesus, they basically begin and end with the commands to love God and love your neighbor--which basically synthesize the original Ten Commandments--NOT replace them. Any other use or misuse of Jesus's words is merely speculation and extrapolation by the person characterizing Jesus's words.

[Freak Out]

Tex have you ever read anything from Michael Kazin?