7 years since 9-11

[MadtownPacker]

Can't believe it has gone by so fast. I remember driving in my car and hearing it on the radio. First thing I thought was that I should go home in case WW3 was popping off. I bet is even fresher in the minds of the families of those who died. I guess no matter what happens the world still keeps turning.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl0/0/0/02_2008/Picture%2050_2.larger.jpg

[digitaldean]

This is one of the days we as Americans MUST NEVER forget.

We need to remember
- those firefighters/first responders that died to help others
- those innocents trapped in the planes and the buildings they hit
- those who fought back and kept one plane from hitting the Capitol or White House
- the cheers New Yorkers were giving the firefighters and police as they drove back to help with the recovery
- the sense of pullng together this nation had (albeit for a very brief time)
- the senselessness and savagery performed by idiotic butchers

It is not a happy day by any stretch, but if we ignore or forget it we devalue those who have perished.

[Kiwon]

Spot on, digitaldean.

September 11, 2001 is one day that we can never ALLOW ourselves to forget. It and our reaction to it is a defining event/moment for this generation of Americans.

http://www.paistortuga.net/binladillas/patriot%20flag/thumb/TN_Proud%20to%20Be%20an%20American.JPG

[GrnBay007]

It really doesn't seem like 7 years ago.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!


http://www.iacmusic.com/Uploads/63384_11_7_2007_2_26_38_AM_-_iwo-9-11-final.jpg

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think our view towards 911 should be the same view Russia takes towards Chernobyl: it was a disaster, a failure, a lesson learned.

I don't think it is an event that particularly inspires pride. Flag waving over this disaster is mastabatory. Although there were certainly individual acts of bravery and heroism.

We should never forget it, in the sense that it was a great lesson. But I think we should focus on the positive things that America has done, and can do. Not obsess on this failure, this wound.

I would prefer that 911 fade into the background somewhat. It shouldn't be a defining moment. I'd rather see us define ourselves in a more positive way. I'm proud that the U.S. hasn't abandoned Iraq, is seeing that project through. I will be proud if the U.S. deals with Global Warming and the Energy problem in some proactive way.

blah blah blah

[Kiwon]

I think our view towards 911 should be the same view Russia takes towards Chernobyl: it was a disaster, a failure, a lesson learned.

I don't think it is an event that particularly inspires pride. Flag waving over this disaster is mastabatory. Although there were certainly individual acts of bravery and heroism.

We should never forget it, in the sense that it was a great lesson. But I think we should focus on the positive things that America has done, and can do. Not obsess on this failure, this wound.

I would prefer that 911 fade into the background somewhat. It shouldn't be a defining moment. I'd rather see us define ourselves in a more positive way. I'm proud that the U.S. hasn't abandoned Iraq, is seeing that project through. I will be proud if the U.S. deals with Global Warming and the Energy problem in some proactive way.

blah blah blah

What a stupid statement. The most intelligent part was the last three words.

HH is now an expert on Russian sociology.

911, Chernobyl, disaster, a failure, a lesson, flag waving, masturbation?

What's in your bloodstream at 4 am?

Next time, lower your carbon footprint and don't say anything.

[Harlan Huckleby]

and you think THAT was intelligent?! thoughtful people have respect for different world views.

your vision for America is fearful, reactive, jingoistic, hunkered-down, dark.

I'd rather see us as innovative, positive, engaged, optimistic. Mindful of the nutjobs in the world, but not driven by them.

[Scott Campbell]

I think you two are saying pretty much the same thing, only differently. Kiwon is saying never forget. Harlan is saying learn your lesson. It's the same message. Only the insults are different - each entertaining in their own way.

Carry on.

[Kiwon]

and you think THAT was intelligent?! thoughtful people have respect for different world views.

your vision for America is fearful, reactive, jingoistic, hunkered-down, dark.

I'd rather see us as innovative, positive, engaged, optimistic. Mindful of the nutjobs in the world, but not driven by them.

Your blood alcohol level hasn't changed in 30 minutes.

"World view?"

You stated an incoherent opinion and I ridiculed it.

Why in your "world view" isn't there room for patriotism along with an "innovative, positive, engaged, optimistic" populace?

[MJZiggy]

Why is it mandatory to ridicule an incoherent opinion? Wouldn't it have sufficed to simply correct it?

[Kiwon]

I think you two are saying pretty much the same thing, only differently. Kiwon is saying never forget. Harlan is saying learn your lesson. It's the same message. Only the insults are different - each entertaining in their own way.

Carry on.

That was beautiful, Scott, very Rodney Kingesque. :cry:

I'm ready for an Obama/Palin ticket now. :)

[Kiwon]

Why is it mandatory to ridicule an incoherent opinion. Wouldn't it have sufficed to simply correct it?

PLEAZZZE..............

The way Russians see Chernobyl?

Patriotic flag waving citizens being compared to perverts masturbating?

Give me a break.

[Scott Campbell]

Why is it mandatory to ridicule an incoherent opinion?


Woody's back? Where?

[Kiwon]

I think our view towards 911 should be the same view Russia takes towards Chernobyl: it was a disaster, a failure, a lesson learned.

I don't think it is an event that particularly inspires pride. Flag waving over this disaster is mastabatory. Although there were certainly individual acts of bravery and heroism.

We should never forget it, in the sense that it was a great lesson. But I think we should focus on the positive things that America has done, and can do. Not obsess on this failure, this wound.

I would prefer that 911 fade into the background somewhat. It shouldn't be a defining moment. I'd rather see us define ourselves in a more positive way. I'm proud that the U.S. hasn't abandoned Iraq, is seeing that project through. I will be proud if the U.S. deals with Global Warming and the Energy problem in some proactive way.

blah blah blah

(After being chastised by MJZ :oops: I have been shamed into trying again)

That was an interesting and creative post, Harlan.

However, I would have to respectfully disagree with your colorful analysis.

Best wishes and love always,

Kiwon

[Scott Campbell]

There were many acts of heroism, and the people of this country look at New Yorkers differently now. But I still can't help thinking that this came about because we are really stupid. We make people turn their cell phones off in the name of "safety", but left cockpits unsecured. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[cpk1994]

Why is it mandatory to ridicule an incoherent opinion?


Woody's back? Where?I'll get my translator.

[mraynrand]

I think our view towards 911 should be the same view Russia takes towards Chernobyl: it was a disaster, a failure, a lesson learned.

Where to start with this? My first reaction is that there is virtually nothing similar between Chernobyl and 9/11. How can they be similar? The Reactor failed for multiple reasons: poor construction, poor staffing, poor oversight, etc. Radiation escaped because, unlike reactors in the west, there was no secondary containment building. If Chernobyl had happened in the U.S., and something like it was close to happening near Cleveland a few years back, virtually no radiation would have escaped. Part two: did Russia really learn a lesson? My understanding is that many reactors have not been updated much or protected. Near Cleveland, the entire reactor was overhauled, people were fired, etc.

Now to 9/11. Was it a disaster? Yes and no. 'Disaster' has overtones of 'accident' or 'acts of nature and/or God' that man can't control or for which he isn't responsible. People caused 9/11. Islamic terrorists. And not just any terrorists. Men who were highly educated, men who lived in the west, men who were highly motivated not by poverty or desperation, but by a specific ideology. Men who used jet planes - the most advanced machines of the west; beautiful soaring symbols of our civilization - to target and destroy skycrapers, arguably the greatest of all symbols of man's achievement. These weren't just enemies of the United States, these were enemies of civilization. Imagine the starving pre-human apes of the movie 2001, being brought to a higher evolutionary plane by the monolith, and then turning on the monolith and destroying it. This is where we were on 9/11. Brought face to face with people who didn't hate us because they were poor and starving, but because we were western, and the west was encroaching on their territory in the middle east: advanced western society must be destroyed.

And what did this mean - what was the existential threat to al Quaeda? What did al quaeda stand for? What did they have to lose as the western world encroached on theirs? Two examples: First, when the Taliban won control over Afghanistan, they did so with brutal killing campaigns in the north. Northern alliance soldiers, defeated, would flee villages and hide in the hills. When the Taliban reached the villages, they didn't want to leave a place to which Northern soldiers could return, so they destroyed the villages. They would bulldoze a giant trench, or pit in the center of town, and fill it with water. Then, they would herd the women and children towards the pit. Sometimes they would shoot all the women and children, and other times, to save bullets, they would simply bulldoze them into the pits and drowning, bulldoze the earth over them, as they still gasped for air.
Other examples: Destruction of any symbols of ancient religious history including the buddhas of Bamyan, intentionally destroyed in 2001 by Mullah Mohammed Omar (as idols, they are forbidden under Sharia law), subjugation of women - covering heads, prohibiting schooling, etc. So that's who attacked the U.S. on 9/11. That 'society' in Afghanistan is what they were trying to preserve.


Was there a failure in the U.S.? Sure, we underestimated these barbarians, and yes, we probably should have had locks on the cockpit instead of turning cell phones off, but why didn't we? Here's where maybe, just maybe, Harlan's point has some merit. The U.S. failed on 9/11 like Russia failed at Chernobyl because of what we are. Russia failed at Chernobyl because the Soviet Union was a disastrous society, and that reflected in the shoddy construction and management of the reactor. The U.S. 'failed' because we are an open western society that too often assumed the advanced and civilized nature of man - assumed that humankind is always and everywhere improving and had risen forever, far above the slime of our barbaric past. That was not true, and probably never will be true. We will always have evil with us, and our failure was a failure to understand or remember at a visceral level what true evil can do. So, lesson learned, right? RIGHT?

[retailguy]

Harlan, You should really feel foolish after reading this. Even notwithstanding Rand's attempt at implying you 'might' have a point.

You started by bashing MTP, then regressed to bashing the single largest terrorist attack in the history of the US if not the world, by making a comparison to a nuclear accident rooted in shoddy planning, implementation and maintenance...

I don't know if you were trying to be funny, or trying to be divisive, but I wasn't amused with whatever it was... FWIW- and that's not very much...

[Harlan Huckleby]

The national mythology of Serbia is centered around a battlefield defeat that happened in Kososvo in the 13th century. Apparently the Islamic Armies kicked their asses, and now they celebrate this historic turning point as some sort of national rallying cry, a patriotic day of shared grievance. They sing ballads that retell the story of this great loss.

It has made the Serbian character sullen, they are a warlike people, and always quick to see themselves as victims. In short, they are retarded.

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance. That would be like packer fans having a shared annual cry over the 4-and-21 day, pictures of Mike Sherman hoisted over our heads, reopening the wounds.

We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Where to start with this? My first reaction is that there is virtually nothing similar between Chernobyl and 9/11. How can they be similar? The Reactor failed for multiple reasons: poor construction, poor staffing, poor oversight, etc. Radiation escaped because, unlike reactors in the west, there was no secondary containment building.

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.



People caused 9/11. Islamic terrorists. And not just any terrorists. Men who were highly educated, men who lived in the west, men who were highly motivated not by poverty or desperation, but by a specific ideology.

Ya, it is a big deal. The fight against terrorism is a big deal. But it need not be all-consuming, and it CERTAINLY should not define us, or even our policy.

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.

[mraynrand]

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance.
We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

Ever hear of Pearl Harbor Day? You know, Dec. 7, when all Americans turn out to kill the Japanese? We 'closed the wound' of Pearl Harbor by defeating Imperial Japan. Have we defeated those who attacked us on 9/11? Is defeating them vengeance, or self-preservation?

[mraynrand]

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.


40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance.
We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

Ever hear of Pearl Harbor Day? You know, Dec. 7, when all Americans turn out to kill the Japanese? We 'closed the wound' of Pearl Harbor by defeating Imperial Japan. Have we defeated those who attacked us on 9/11? Is defeating them vengeance, or self-preservation?

I think that is a good comparison. But the difference in my mind is that I knew Adolph Hitler, he was a friend of mine, and the Islamic fascists are no Adolph Hitler. The terrorists do NOT present that sort of existensial threat, we are kicking their asses, and the Islamic world is turning against them.

I don't disagree with your points. Defeating the terrorists goes beyond vengeance.

Pearl Harbor Day is now a big deal mostly for people who were alive during the 1940's. And I think that is as it should be.

We don't have a national day of mourning over the Great Chicago Fire.

Perhaps I am being insensitive, the wounds of 911 are pretty fresh.

[mraynrand]

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.

I couldn't disagree more about the comparison between Chernobyl and 9/11. The fucking terrorists killed our citizens. The airport security people did not kill anybody. Their failure didn't CAUSE the terrorists to kill. The terrorist didn't fail at anything - they were wide awake at the switch.


Chernobyl was caused by fucking incompetents.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.


40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018

why aren't bombs going off all over England?

Europe is more threatened than us, no bout a doubt it. The Islamicists are not going to take over the west.

[mraynrand]

We don't have a national day of mourning over the Great Chicago Fire.



WTF? I didn't know we were attacked, causing the Chicago Fire. Did we go to war over it?

[Harlan Huckleby]

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.

I couldn't disagree more about the comparison between Chernobyl and 9/11. The fucking terrorists killed our citizens. The airport security people did not kill anybody. Their failure didn't CAUSE the terrorists to kill. The terrorist didn't fail at anything - they were wide awake at the switch.


Chernobyl was caused by fucking incompetents.


911 was caused by incompetents. Arabs taking flying lessons, not concerned about landing? Our guard was way down. Amazing, given the bombing of the World Trade Center back in the eary 90's.

[mmmdk]

The national mythology of Serbia is centered around a battlefield defeat that happened in Kososvo in the 13th century. Apparently the Islamic Armies kicked their asses, and now they celebrate this historic turning point as some sort of national rallying cry, a patriotic day of shared grievance. They sing ballads that retell the story of this great loss.

It has made the Serbian character sullen, they are a warlike people, and always quick to see themselves as victims. In short, they are retarded.

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance. That would be like packer fans having a shared annual cry over the 4-and-21 day, pictures of Mike Sherman hoisted over our heads, reopening the wounds.

We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

I remember & I agree.

[mraynrand]

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.


40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018

why aren't bombs going off all over England?

Europe is more threatened than us, no bout a doubt it. The Islamicists are not going to take over the west.

Why explode bombs when you don't need to - especially when in 50 years, you will be the majority, and the Archbishop of Canterbury already agrees with you.

[mraynrand]

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.

I couldn't disagree more about the comparison between Chernobyl and 9/11. The fucking terrorists killed our citizens. The airport security people did not kill anybody. Their failure didn't CAUSE the terrorists to kill. The terrorist didn't fail at anything - they were wide awake at the switch.


Chernobyl was caused by fucking incompetents.


911 was caused by incompetents. Arabs taking flying lessons, not concerned about landing? Our guard was way down. Amazing, given the bombing of the World Trade Center back in the eary 90's.

I'm sorry Harlan, but you're a fool. You can hold our security people accountable for mistakes, but to say they cause 9/11 is monstrous.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We don't have a national day of mourning over the Great Chicago Fire.



WTF? I didn't know we were attacked, causing the Chicago Fire. Did we go to war over it?

What is your purpose in having an annual day of mourning, anger and grievance over 911? To accomplish what? Should we celebrate the great loss of life at the battle of the Bulge every year?

I have a totally different vision of what is good for the country.

[Harlan Huckleby]

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.

I couldn't disagree more about the comparison between Chernobyl and 9/11. The fucking terrorists killed our citizens. The airport security people did not kill anybody. Their failure didn't CAUSE the terrorists to kill. The terrorist didn't fail at anything - they were wide awake at the switch.


Chernobyl was caused by fucking incompetents.


911 was caused by incompetents. Arabs taking flying lessons, not concerned about landing? Our guard was way down. Amazing, given the bombing of the World Trade Center back in the eary 90's.

I'm sorry Harlan, but you're a fool. You can hold our security people accountable for mistakes, but to say they cause 9/11 is monstrous.

Oh Christ. Ya, right, I'm soft on terrorists, I've absolved them of all responsibility.

[SkinBasket]

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance. That would be like packer fans having a shared annual cry over the 4-and-21 day, pictures of Mike Sherman hoisted over our heads, reopening the wounds.

Now 9/11 = a Packers loss. Sometimes you just jump into the deep end of the dumb pool head first don't you?

[Zool]

Now 9/11 = a Packers loss. Sometimes you just jump into the deep end of the dumb pool head first don't you?

After the water has been drained.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Now 9/11 = a Packers loss.

not equal, English Major. get your old college notes out and go back to the day where you talked about metaphors.

[mraynrand]

We don't have a national day of mourning over the Great Chicago Fire.



WTF? I didn't know we were attacked, causing the Chicago Fire. Did we go to war over it?

What is your purpose in having an annual day of mourning, anger and grievance over 911? To accomplish what? Should we celebrate the great loss of life at the battle of the Bulge every year?

I have a totally different vision of what is good for the country.

I suspect the amount of time devoted to remembrance will go down every year, just like for every other similar event this nation has experienced. The point wasn't the day, the point is how you characterize 9/11 - as a 'tragedy of human failure' - and how you seem completely unaware of any continued threat to the west.

[Harlan Huckleby]

how you seem completely unaware of any continued threat to the west.

if you know anything about my opinions on foreign policy, you know this is not true. you're just painting with a broad brush, dipped in a stereotype. now THAT was a bad metaphor.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Now 9/11 = a Packers loss.

not equal, English Major. get your old college notes out and go back to the day where you talked about metaphors.

Actually, you used a simile.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Now 9/11 = a Packers loss.

not equal, English Major. get your old college notes out and go back to the day where you talked about metaphors.

Actually, you used a simile.

busted. I guess if you use the word "like" it makes it a simile? I was not an english major, just wished I was one, much prettier girls over there.

[mraynrand]

Now 9/11 = a Packers loss.

not equal, English Major. get your old college notes out and go back to the day where you talked about metaphors.

Actually, you used a simile.

You're like my English lit teacher, a pesky mosquito that never leaves me alone.

[bobblehead]

I learned a new word. MASTABATORY. cool. I already knew several along that line:

choke the chicken, pound the flounder, jerk off, jack off, beat off, polish the knob, bash the bisop, pocket pool, spank the monkey, toss off, whank off, whack off, pull the pud, rub one out, stroke the stork, punch the clown. But I never heard the term matabatory. See, Harlen did contribute something.

[Zool]

wax the dolphin
juggle the plumb
jerkin the gherkin

[hoosier]

Weed the one-eyed garden weasel.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I learned a new word. MASTABATORY. cool. I already knew several along that line:



Ty will help you learn to spell it: masturbatory. :wink:

[SkinBasket]

I learned a new word. MASTABATORY. cool. I already knew several along that line:



Ty will help you learn to spell it: masturbatory. :wink:

It is actually very useful to know how to spell this word when addressing any post Harlan takes part in.

I think if you did a search, you would actually find a pretty good correlation between the use of the word and it's proximity to Harlan's posts.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I learned a new word. MASTABATORY. cool. I already knew several along that line:



Ty will help you learn to spell it: masturbatory. :wink:

It is actually very useful to know how to spell this word when addressing any post Harlan takes part in.

I think if you did a search, you would actually find a pretty good correlation between the use of the word and it's proximity to Harlan's posts.

Why would i want to do that?

[Tarlam!]

Although I don't get the Chernobyl comparison one bit, I tend to agree with what the blue dog is saying.

I was in Spain that day. It was the McDonald's Europe Charity golf Week.

I vividly remember landing, then the first SMS's were being read and news sickered through about the first tower being hit. The wife of the then McDonald's President for Central and Eastern Europe was in Business class, talking to her hubby by cell. He had arrived a day earlier. I was in the first row of economy, with my guest for the tournament.

I am well acquainted with the lady and she told me her hubby was telling her the Pentagon was under attack. She also gave a blow by blow of the second tower being hit, compliments of her hubby.

My guest of that week is a practicing Muslim, from Persia. No, not Iran. He looks like a Muslim, too. i credit the Spanish authorities highly that he was treated like all other travellers- He was worried sick he'd be strip searched! He wasn't.

Anyway, the Golf tournament was cancelled. I remember voicing my opinion at the time that cancelling the tournament was EXACTLY the type of behaviour the terrorists were soliciting and we should proceed with living our Western lifestyle in spite of the attack. My argument fell on deaf ears and despite being grounded for 4 days the trophies were not awarded. IIRC, that was the last McD Europe Golf tournament, although, many countries hold their own golf day.

Long story, but I felt I needed to share it in support of HH.

I remember 9/11 for the heroes in NY that died and those that saved otherwise lost lives. Also those passengers that stormed the cockpit and brought down that plane are heroes to me.

I believe they should be honored annually. But I don't want 9/11 to be the wrong kind of symbol. In that, I get what HH is saying.

[swede]

I agree with Tarlam.

In my interpretation, HH was saying that we have some choice in how we shape the memorializing of 9/11.

Catholics have the same sort of problem. Bitter, bitter discussions have been held over whether Christ crucified or the risen Christ be the principal visual image when a parish builds or remodels a new worship space.

Some say that the image of Christ crucified carries the essential message of sacrifice needed as people approach communion; we should admit sin and die to our own selfishness as we accept the body of Christ.

Others say Christ crucified celebrates only the death and not the powerful message of resurrection.

I felt that HH, devout contrarian that he is, was warning us against making 9/11 into an occasion that inadvertently celebrates a devastating kick in the ass.

I think that as time passes it will become another Pearl Harbor Day. And that would be about right. It may be parsing words to distinguish between memorializing and celebrating but, whatever Blue Dawg meant, that is how I read his initial post in this thread.

And I never wanted to be President anyway.

Edit: His SECOND post. His initial post was Debbie Downer. :wink:

[texaspackerbacker]

The bottom line is that seven years after 9/11, we have NOT had a repeat of 9/11. Do people actually think that is sheer LUCK?

The PRESIDENT and PARTY who are primarily RESPONSIBLE for that success are roundly criticized and have low approval ratings. The assholes who have dragged their feet and opposed virtually every measure that has WORKED to prevent terrorism in America get glorified.

THAT more than anything else is a TRIBUTE to the sinister effectiveness of the GOD DAMNED AMERICA-HATING LEFTIST MAINSTREAM MEDIA!

Could there possibly be an issue more important than this? Hell No!--But then, it seems the leftist mainstream media has propagandized people to think differently on that question too.

[Scott Campbell]

911 was caused by incompetents.


I agree with this. We had an invitingly soft underbelly exposed to an enemy we should have known would take advantage of it. It could have been anticipated. It should have been anticipated. And part of the good that came from all the suffering was that there were lessons learned.

Do you give the opposing team credit for attacking Jarret Bush in our secondary. No. Our team is accountable for fielding a better CB. So I don't blame the terrorists for 911. They were just taking what the defense gave them. I blame Kurt Schottenheimer.

Good God - I agree with Harlan on something. I need a shower.

[mraynrand]

911 was caused by incompetents.


I agree with this. We had an invitingly soft underbelly exposed to an enemy we should have known would take advantage of it. It could have been anticipated. It should have been anticipated. And part of the good that came from all the suffering was that there were lessons learned.

Do you give the opposing team credit for attacking Jarret Bush in our secondary. No. Our team is accountable for fielding a better CB. So I don't blame the terrorists for 911. They were just taking what the defense gave them. I blame Kurt Schottenheimer.

Good God - I agree with Harlan on something. I need a shower.

What you need is to get a grip on reality. I can't believe you're agreeing with this. CAUSATION? Using your analogy, we lost simply because Bush was on the field. I agree that our security sucked, but that didn't CAUSE 911. You don't blame the terrorists. I have to ask -what the hell is wrong with you guys who think this? Do you blame people who get killed by drunk drivers for not avoiding the drunks? Do you blame people who get robbed for not having better home security.

Or how about this: Say your friend gets shot dead and a police officer had the opportunity to shoot him first, but missed. We go back and check police training records and find that they allow cops in who have a 60% proficiency in their shooting. People speculate that, had the officer been 85% proficient, he would have killed the shooter. Is it then the police departments FAULT that your friend was killed because their standards weren't high enough?
---------------
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS???

[swede]

Is it then the police departments FAULT that your friend was killed because their standards weren't high enough?

YES.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dsteenswede44/Keith-Olbermann-738702.jpg

[BallHawk]

The bottom line is that seven years after 9/11, we have NOT had a repeat of 9/11.

And we didn't have a terrorist attack of that magnitude before the Bush presidency. Does that mean that every preceding president defended America 100% OK? No. One could say that Clinton's lack of attention to stop the rise of terrorism was a big factor in 9/11.

You can't blame 9/11 on one administration and you can't praise one administration for there not being another 9/11.

[Scott Campbell]

Ok GD, it's not like I'm giving the terrorists a free pass on this. I do blame them for killing all those people. But I hold the United States ACCOUNTABLE for defending itself against exactly what happened. We were asleep at the switch. Our lack of foresight was a contributing factor.

I don't count on the terrorists to keep our country safe. I count on the government to do that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Ayn Rand, it is implicitly understood by all that the terrorist carry the moral resonsibility of their actions. We're discussing our preparation and response, the part within our control. Blaming people in this country for failures is not the same as excusing the terrorists, which I have to believe you get, not sure why you won't let this academic point go.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You can't blame 9/11 on one administration and you can't praise one administration for there not being another 9/11.

Of course you are right about 9/11 being a collective failure, but I don't at all see why you won't give the Cheney mobile some credit for preventing any major terrorist attacks. I don't see your logic. There were several major attacks during the Clinton years, things were heating up.

[mraynrand]

it's not like I'm giving the terrorists a free pass on this. I do blame them for killing all those people. But I hold the United States ACCOUNTABLE for defending itself against exactly what happened. We were asleep at the switch. Our lack of foresight was a contributing factor..

You said: "I don't blame the terrorists." That just pisses me right the fuck off. START with: I blame the goddamn fucking terrorists, THEN you can get after the admin. the airlines, etc. etc. I hold them accountable too. But when you and Harlan, etc. sit there pointing fingers at our shitty security as your first instinct, and basically equate the terrorists to the equivalent of an accident or a storm, it IS like giving them a pass. It's like saying, "Gosh, they'll always be there. We have to get better security." As though they have to exist, and we have to tolerate them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018

Ayn did make valid point about how much of a problem the Islamists are in Europe. It made me realize how warm and fuzzy our Mexicans are, they're positively adorable in comparison. Time for people to stop bitchin, wake up and smell the MExicans.

[Tarlam!]

And then HH goes and makes a stupid, brain dead post like the last one that makes one want to regurgitate one's lunch.

[mraynrand]

Ayn Rand, it is implicitly understood by all that the terrorist carry the moral resonsibility of their actions. We're discussing our preparation and response, the part within our control. Blaming people in this country for failures is not the same as excusing the terrorists, which I have to believe you get, not sure why you won't let this academic point go.

Because you started with equating them to Chernobyl for shit's sake. Then Campbell says "I don't blame the terrorists."

Long term, I think that is a loser and losing mindset - it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation so we don't have to be in a state of continual lock-down. After all, we've had the minimal amount of changes to try to protect ourselves and look at the carping and hysteria from the left over a few changes in FISA and in monitoring overseas calls. If we have a defensive posture only, that will only get worse. There is an ideology that exists that prefers using terror and if we accept that in the same way that we accept that storms will happen, we're going to lose, and keep losing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation

you are making wild logical leaps. I'm not making any coment on our strategy for fighting terrorism.

[Scott Campbell]

You said: "I don't blame the terrorists." That just pisses me right the fuck off.



I don't blame them for being successful on 911. I do blame them for hating us enough to want to kill us in the first place.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And then HH goes and makes a stupid, brain dead post like the last one that makes one want to regurgitate one's lunch.

it was just a joke, not making any serious comment about mexicans or immigration.

[Scott Campbell]

.. it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation.......



My mindset is that terrorists will continue to exist until we get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation.

But until then, shame on us for forgetting to lock the door.

[Tarlam!]

it was just a joke, not making any serious comment about mexicans or immigration.

Look, I like your humor, I really do. But, that was stupid - the subject and especially, thread. Just stupid. Consider yourself chastised, young man.

[Harlan Huckleby]

actually, it was pretty damn funny! my working definition of funny is what I think is funny. I am in the business of pleasuring myself.

[Scott Campbell]

I am in the business of pleasuring myself.



........leaving us with a worldwide grand total of...........one of you.

[Tarlam!]

My mindset is that terrorists will continue to exist until we get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation.

But until then, shame on us for forgetting to lock the door.

Don't you see, though, that by taking my sperm sample at your airports the terrorists won?

I don't look forward to a repeat of 9/11, but the security at your place has had me cancel half a dozen trips, at least. I was strip search at Milwaukee on my way to Toronto because the 'puter threw out 3 X's on my boarding card!!

I am not Harlan, I hate that shit!!!

[mraynrand]

it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation

you are making wild logical leaps. I'm not making any coment on our strategy for fighting terrorism.

Yes, to an extent. But I think it follows from the mindset of thinking about our prevention aspect first and thinking about our security failures first. Calling 9/11 a 'tragedy' and comparing it to Chernobyl is a much different stance that calling it an attack and a call to arms, for example. Those two different viewpoints are not entirely mutually exclusive, but the viewpoint you choose to focus on initially will ultimately lead to a different viewpoint in combating terrorism.

[Scott Campbell]

Sorry for your inconvenience Tarlam. But its the lesser of 2 evils. My kids don't like having to lock their bikes up either. But it beats having them stolen. It's too bad, but Mayberry doesn't exist anymore.

[Tarlam!]

Sorry for your inconvenience Tarlam.

Y'know mate, if it were only my inconvenience, I wouldn't really worry. But have you seen the lines at security since 9/11? You must have. The terrorists have changed the way we travel. They won a huge victory, becuse they forced a change in our daily lives.

I think that sucks.

[Scott Campbell]

Sorry for your inconvenience Tarlam.

Y'know mate, if it were only my inconvenience, I wouldn't really worry. But have you seen the lines at security since 9/11? You must have. The terrorists have changed the way we travel. They won a huge victory, becuse they forced a change in our daily lives.

I think that sucks.


I've flown most every week for the last 16 years. Though rarely internationally. I know airport security. It does suck, but lines seem to be getting shorter. I have the drill down.

And security is not even my biggest gripe when traveling anymore. The ineptitude of the airlines is far more inconvenient. Come to think of it, I'd like to label some of those companies and their employees as enemy combatants.

[HowardRoark]

To nobody in particular:

a) whose fault was Pearl Harbor?

b) do you think our country would have allowed the counter measures needed prior to 9/11?

There is a tremendous amount of push back to counter measures now, even after 9/11.

[bobblehead]

I learned a new word. MASTABATORY. cool. I already knew several along that line:



Ty will help you learn to spell it: masturbatory. :wink:

thank you, I should have known better than to trust HH's spelling, but mine isn't that great either so I just ran with it.

[texaspackerbacker]

The bottom line is that seven years after 9/11, we have NOT had a repeat of 9/11.

And we didn't have a terrorist attack of that magnitude before the Bush presidency. Does that mean that every preceding president defended America 100% OK? No. One could say that Clinton's lack of attention to stop the rise of terrorism was a big factor in 9/11.

You can't blame 9/11 on one administration and you can't praise one administration for there not being another 9/11.

I have always been loath to blame Clinton's people all that much for 9/11, but the fact is, THERE WAS A PATTERN--A CRESCENDO OF TERRORIST EVENTS all through the Clinton years leading up to 9/11.

More significantly, there was the closest thing we have to ONE INDIVIDUAL TO BLAME for 9/11-the JAMIE GORELICK WALL--the POLICY of the Clinton Administration, incredibly, that communications between our intelligence agencies was a BIGGER THREAT than that of our enemies--IS THAT A PROTOTYPE LEFTIST CONCEPT OR WHAT?

Somebody said INCOMPETENTS caused 9/11. An emphatic No to that! 9/11 was caused by terrorists--HIGHLY COMPETENT TERRORISTS. And it took a higher level of competence on the part of the Bush Administration to prevent it from happening again.

Security at home was a large part of that, but an interventionist foreign policy and bringing American values and dominance to the middle east--an unfinished task--were the main factors. And whether you're talking about the security aspect or the assertion of American power aspect, the same assholes of the left--Obama at the top of the list--opposed BOTH every step of the way. Call it ignorance; Call it informed America-hate; Either way, Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Murtha, Durban, and a whole host of others set themselves up as AGAINST THE SIDE OF AMERICA on the MOST IMPORTANCE ISSUE of our time.

[Kiwon]

I have always been loath to blame Clinton's people all that much for 9/11, but the fact is, THERE WAS A PATTERN--A CRESCENDO OF TERRORIST EVENTS all through the Clinton years leading up to 9/11.

More significantly, there was the closest thing we have to ONE INDIVIDUAL TO BLAME for 9/11-the JAMIE GORELICK WALL--the POLICY of the Clinton Administration, incredibly, that communications between our intelligence agencies was a BIGGER THREAT than that of our enemies--IS THAT A PROTOTYPE LEFTIST CONCEPT OR WHAT?

Somebody said INCOMPETENTS caused 9/11. An emphatic No to that! 9/11 was caused by terrorists--HIGHLY COMPETENT TERRORISTS. And it took a higher level of competence on the part of the Bush Administration to prevent it from happening again.

I'm really surprised that this debate is continuing.

Has anyone else read, The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOjsXcHQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

While the roots of Al-Qaeda run deep, Tex is exactly right in regards to the immediate run up to 9/11.

Besides the silliness of the Russian psychology and Chernobyl comment, my problem with HH's comment is his assertion that patriotism is a bad thing.

Like press spokesmen several has been giving nuanced interpretations and defenses of HH's comments when he can simply speak for himself.

I'd like to have him answer the earlier question I posed to him. -
Why in your "world view" isn't there room for patriotism along with an "innovative, positive, engaged, optimistic" populace?

Why do the two have to be juxtaposed?

Explaining your personal definition of what patriotism is would be illuminating.

[BallHawk]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

[Scott Campbell]

Explaining your personal definition of what patriotism is would be illuminating.



I am in the business of pleasuring myself.

[falco]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

Patriotism is a good thing - I have several family members whose service to the country I am extremely proud of - and I have great pride for the troops who serve us today. Noble causes inspire patriotism. However, in the general sense of the word, I despise nationalism - I consider myself a human being before an American. All of us across the globe are human beings and are bound by this commonality. I don't put a higher value on the life of those who died on 9/11 or those innocent bystanders who died from the civil unrest in Iraq.

Now those who are responsible for those deaths? ? ? not so much...

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kiwon,

Rather than discuss patriotism, lets talk more generically about love.

I think anybody alive eventually figures out that love can be hazhardous to your health and well being.

I'm not going to talk about the negative possibilites of love, patriotism, apple pie, or puppy dogs, because you will miss the subtlety and announce that I am opposed to them.

[falco]

I haven't read this whole thread (because it would probably make my head explode) but I personally look at 9/11 the same as I do Pearl Harbor - a wistful time to remember the lives lost - to me, anything more would be disrespectful to their memories. Other people I'm sure have their own views on this and I respect that - especially those who were closer to each situation than others may have been.

[mraynrand]

I'm not going to talk about the negative possibilites of love, patriotism, apple pie, or puppy dogs, because you will miss the subtlety and announce that I am opposed to them.



http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/UGC/TODAY%20Puppies/TODAY_CutestPups_UGC_080324/Gray_Brian/080413_120654_puppy_ug.vlarge.jpg

[texaspackerbacker]

Harlan, could you possibly be trying to divert the discussion away from serious talk about blame for 9/11, credit for no repeats, and the absolutely devastating potential results of repeats of 9/11 or worse which make THAT the MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE currently on the agenda?

[Kiwon]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

Yes, and there is chauvinism and then there's patriotism.

What I'm gathering is that many younger Americans think they are the same.

It's somehow chauvinistic to put your hand over your heart and sing the national anthem, to say the "Pledge of Allegiance," to root for the USA during the Olympics, etc.

To some their identity as an American citizen is something that needs to be hidden or conflated with all the other nationalities on earth.

Days like 9/11 present a problem for them because it highlights their distinctiveness.

Radical groups targeted us (the USA and its citizens) for attack because they hate the values we represent to them. The "anti-chauvinistic" citizen hurries to say, "I'm not like those other guys you say you hate" and even goes on to say that America deserved to be humbled and get a black eye (Ward Churchill, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, for example).

Most others, however, aren't ashamed of their heritage or citizenship. They recognize that there are no perfect societies on earth, but there sure are some better than others. Only the most naive among us would argue otherwise.

The patriotic reaction to 9/11 is to remember those innocents who lost their lives, to honor individual acts of bravery, and to take offense that our country and its citizens were targeted. None of that begins to equal chauvinism.

This cynicism that being proud of your heritage and waving a flag is equal to masturbation (HH's analogy) is so inanely stupid. It's the sentiment of a confused person possessing very few core values.

[Scott Campbell]

Excellent post Kiwon.

[BallHawk]

Yup, the terrorist hate us because we love apple pie and baseball.

[texaspackerbacker]

A definition is in order here. In recent decades, chauvinism has mostly been equated to sexism--"male chauvinist pig", etc.

The REAL meaning of the word is more like ethnocentricty--in the case of Americans, AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

Is there a difference between chauvinism and patriotism? Not a substantial one--only in the minds of leftists who PRETEND to be patriotic, while they CAN'T STAND the thought of chauvinism. But they're nothing but scummy haters of America anyway, so who cares what they think.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The patriotic reaction to 9/11 is to remember those innocents who lost their lives, to honor individual acts of bravery, and to take offense that our country and its citizens were targeted. None of that begins to equal chauvinism.

I'm not sure who you are delivering this speech to, but I never questioned these activities. My comment was about degrees of emphasis.
An analogy: there is nothing wrong with grieving, but to spend the rest of your life in mourning over a loss is not productive.


This cynicism that being proud of your heritage and waving a flag is equal to masturbation (HH's analogy) is so inanely stupid. It's the sentiment of a confused person possessing very few core values.

I never denigrated pride in heritatge or patriotism per se. Like AynRand, your style is to mistate the other person's position, then attack character based on the mistatement. In your case, I think you simply can't understand other viewpoints, all subtlety is lost on you; AynRand is disingenuous.

[Partial]

I was in public speaking when I heard it happened. 2nd hour. 10th grade.

[BallHawk]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

[Zool]

I was in public speaking when I heard it happened. 2nd hour. 10th grade.

I was in MKE when it happened. I was there for a Brewers/Cardinals series. I woke up in the hotel, showered and turned the TV on to watch some news just in time to see the second plane hit. It didnt even seem real.

[mraynrand]

AynRand is disingenuous.

I went after your absurd analogy, comparing 9/11 and Chernobyl. Nothing disingenuous about it.

[mraynrand]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

[BallHawk]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

[HowardRoark]

equal distribution of wealth

or something..........

http://asianbadger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/2stalin.GIF

[BallHawk]

Roark is gonna have an ice axe in his skull in the near future....

[mraynrand]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

I noticed that liberating countries, individual liberties, policing international trade routes, propping up the entire globe with commerce, providing defense for most of the free world, highest GDP, were strangely missing. Ballhawk, we have better healthcare and infrastructure than any country on the globe, except perhaps a few tiny countries here and there, or countries we both protect and/or have liberated.

You're right about equal distribution of wealth. There are a lot of countries out there where virtually everyone is dirt poor. Just ask George Obama.

[Partial]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

Healthcare? Go to Europe and get treatment for cancer when you're 70...

Crime prevention. Perhaps. I honestly don't know.

Standard of living is good because its almost like socialism.

Equal division of wealth is BS if there is not equal division of work hours, difficulty, etc. If i'm going to school for 8 years, I don't expect a high school graduate to earn the same income.

Don't know what you mean by infrastructure.

[BallHawk]

I noticed that liberating countries, individual liberties, policing international trade routes, propping up the entire globe with commerce, providing defense for most of the free world, highest GDP, were strangely missing. Ballhawk, we have better healthcare and infrastructure than any country on the globe, except perhaps a few tiny countries here and there, or countries we both protect and/or have liberated.

Liberating countries? When did this become the measure of a successful country. A successful country provides its citizens protection and opportunity to accomplish whatever their goals may be. The US does that. The US is a great country. The US does a lot of things better than the rest of the world. However, we don't do everything 100% right all the time. You can't argue that. There are some areas where we fall short.

[HowardRoark]

If i'm going to school for 8 years, I don't expect a high school graduate to earn the same income.

Why not? They could end up being your boss.

Every Monday morning, Capitalism announces it needs a few millionaires. Rarely does it get enough people to step forward (I don't). The system is dependent on people getting rich. Those who step forward and take the risks, MIGHT be rewarded. With that reward come many employed people who:

feed their children

educated their children

take vacations

feel a sense of security (while the rich risk taker lies in bed at night and worries).

Fund their retirements

etc.

etc.

etc.

[Partial]

Fine, if I'm a doctor, I don't expect a janitor without the need for college to earn the same income.

[texaspackerbacker]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

I think what he meant when he said "such as?" was "name one". You can't can you?

Who in the whole damn world is better than America and Americans when the criteria are freedom, prosperity, compassion, courage, responsibility, any rational value you can name?

Where would the world be without us--that's U.S.--standing in the way of undisputed evil doing its damnedest to tyrannize all mankind and destroy all that is good and decent in the world. WE--the United States of America defeated Nazism, defeated Communism, and are well on the way to defeating radical Islam. I ask again, where would the ungrateful and undeserving wretches of the world be if not for America--more specifically, if not for American interventionist foreign policy?

So, Freakout, or any other leftist or any namby pamby whatever who's afraid to shout it from the roof tops, WHO do you see as on a par with America and Americans in any way that counts--even the lame excuses for criteria that YOU cited?

Apologies to Freakout. It's Ballhawk whose wrongheadedness I was countering. Somehow, I often get those two mixed up.

[HowardRoark]

Roark is gonna have an ice axe in his skull in the near future....

I hope they hit the dead spot.

[mraynrand]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

Out of curiosity, could you tell me the 2 or 3 (or more) most influential sources (people, newspapers, magazines, TV programs, etc.) in your life that brought you to the above point of view?

[mraynrand]

http://www.capveterans.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/another_country_saved2.jpg

[BallHawk]

Out of curiosity, could you tell me the 2 or 3 (or more) most influential sources (people, newspapers, magazines, TV programs, etc.) in your life that brought you to the above point of view?

Wikipedia and CNN. :|

Actually, I can't say there are specific sources I rely on for POV's. If you put too much stock in one source you end up with a slanted POV. I just read around: Economist, FP, Foreign Affairs, just various books here and there. You can't pin POV on simply what your sources are. If somebody said "I'm thinking of opening up a business in [insert dangerous country here] do you think it's a good idea?" you would say no. But why? Do you get this directly from one media outlet? No, you know it because somewhere along the line you heard/read/observed it and connected the dots and realize it made sense. That's probably a bad example, but I hope you get my point. We don't make decisions solely from other media outlets.

[mraynrand]

I noticed that liberating countries, individual liberties, policing international trade routes, propping up the entire globe with commerce, providing defense for most of the free world, highest GDP, were strangely missing. Ballhawk, we have better healthcare and infrastructure than any country on the globe, except perhaps a few tiny countries here and there, or countries we both protect and/or have liberated.

Liberating countries? When did this become the measure of a successful country. A successful country provides its citizens protection and opportunity to accomplish whatever their goals may be. The US does that. The US is a great country. The US does a lot of things better than the rest of the world. However, we don't do everything 100% right all the time. You can't argue that. There are some areas where we fall short.

For the U.S. it was about the time of the revolutionary war, when we liberated our first country - us! And yes, liberating countries is a great measure of success - because in every case, we defeated evil and/or corrupt liberty-crushing countries to do so. I can't imagine a better measure of success for a country than one that has the ethical high ground and the dedication to higher ideals as well as the economic and technological wherewithal to project power in the interest of liberation (without occupation - a truly novel aspect of a superpower never before seen on this globe). If you don't agree that's not a measure of the most successful country this planet has ever seen, I think perhaps your bar is set too high.

[mraynrand]

Out of curiosity, could you tell me the 2 or 3 (or more) most influential sources (people, newspapers, magazines, TV programs, etc.) in your life that brought you to the above point of view?

Wikipedia and CNN. :|

Actually, I can't say there are specific sources I rely on for POV's. If you put too much stock in one source you end up with a slanted POV. I just read around: Economist, FP, Foreign Affairs, just various books here and there. You can't pin POV on simply what your sources are. If somebody said "I'm thinking of opening up a business in [insert dangerous country here] do you think it's a good idea?" you would say no. But why? Do you get this directly from one media outlet? No, you know it because somewhere along the line you heard/read/observed it and connected the dots and realize it made sense. That's probably a bad example, but I hope you get my point. We don't make decisions solely from other media outlets.


You seem like a genuinely bright, interested and earnest guy. I hope you always keep searching for answers and examining new POVs.

Well, that's it for me. I have to get up early for more training to be the AMERICAN TALIBAN (I 'm going to church).

[Harlan Huckleby]

AynRand is disingenuous.

I went after your absurd analogy, comparing 9/11 and Chernobyl. Nothing disingenuous about it.

9/11 & Chernobyl are both disasters that should be dealt with, but should not be allowed to dominate psyches or policy. That is the parallel.

In an argument about terrorism, you accuse others of the "monstrous" act of absolving terrorist of responsibility, entirely blaming the gatekeepers. You know perfectly well nobody (here at least) believes such a thing, you created a strawman to rightously condemn, which is disingenuous posturing.

I argued that turning 911 into a permanent patriotic holiday and rallying cry is unwise. Kiwon announces I oppose patriotism, lack any core values. I don't think Kiwon is being disingenuous, I know from past experience that he sees the world in very simple black and white terms, he reduces all arguments to crude simplifications. He thinks in crayon.

[Kiwon]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

BallHawk, I would agree with you that it doesn't have to be either/or. It should be both/and.

However, there really are several, not a few, areas where the American people, their traditional values and their system of government has enabled them to distinguish themselves among the other nations of the world.

Just as we shouldn't deny deficiencies and iniquities within society we should not ignore the fields in which we excel.

Korean students are #2 in the world in math and science (I think Finland is tops). I wish American kids were #2, but they aren't. Give credit to the Korean kids that actually study. Koreans are always amazed when I mention the dropout rate among Blacks in America is 50%. Why? Because most would love to study in the USA and would do nearly anything to have the opportunity. And that's what being in America means to so many foreigners - having the opportunity on a level playing field to maximize your potential as a person.

I watched the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics with interest. There had been so much negative press about East - West issues (Tibet, Smog, Oppression, Unfair trade practices, etc) and I was wondering what kind of reception the US team would get.

To my surprise they were greeted with a huge uproar. Only the China team got a bigger reception. In fact, several of the Western countries, including Australia, got sustained applause.

Amazingly, Kobe Bryant was the popular athlete there. He was more popular than Yao Ming.

No one likes a chauvinist and fortunately Americans are not like that. The American people are the most generous on earth and do more practical good for others than any other single country.

That's exceptionalism and only one reason America is admired by both critics and fans.

We can’t overlook that there is a hard left in America that sees it only as either/or. National pride equals arrogance and chauvinism to them. A global village approach is more to their liking because equity is their goal. But the world will never be perfectly equal. Certain societies are simply more productive than others.

The more balanced approach is the correct one - strongly critiquing deficiencies within American society while not dismissing the overwhelmingly positive contributions that our 300 million citizens are making that distinguish us from other groups.

Again, I agree with you. It should be both/and, not either/or.

[Kiwon]

He thinks in crayon.

But it's so pretty. :wink:

HH, state your opinion, defend it, take your lumps and move on.

Usually you have some good points. But you are all over the map on this one. No, you have not explained yourself very well at all.

Either do it or stop vying for the "Most Misunderstood Rat" moniker and holding everyone else responsible to explain what you meant.

A third choice is to forget about it. It's gameday.

Let's enjoy seeing A-Rod shred the Lions today. See ya' in the gameday thread.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kiwon, you "argue" with crude insults, then complain about the response.

the peacemaker stance is a little rich

[Scott Campbell]

Koreans are always amazed when I mention the dropout rate among Blacks in America is 50%. Why? Because most would love to study in the USA and would do nearly anything to have the opportunity.


I had the opportunity to talk with Rick Marjerus once - at the time head coach of the U. of U. basketball team. He said he was amazed at the difference among his players and their approach towards their education opportunity. His non-US players uniformly valued the opportunity to go to class, while he or his staff had to really keep tabs on the US kids. This was from a guy that had some of the highest graduation rates in the country.

Kids take education for granted here. I think its because of 2 reasons. 1 - it's free, and 2 - we tolerate mediocrity with concepts like "no student left behind". In other scocieties, if you're getting lousy grades, the government gets you out of school and into a trade. Kids get one shot at living a better life - school. If they screw up, that's it. You better like plumbing. And its amazing how much more appreciative these kids are towards their education opportunity.

[Scott Campbell]

Kiwon, you "argue" with crude insults, then complain about the response.

the peacemaker stance is a little rich



I think Harlan needs a hug.

[falco]

Koreans are always amazed when I mention the dropout rate among Blacks in America is 50%. Why? Because most would love to study in the USA and would do nearly anything to have the opportunity.


I had the opportunity to talk with Rick Marjerus once - at the time head coach of the U. of U. basketball team. He said he was amazed at the difference among his players and their approach towards their education opportunity. His non-US players uniformly valued the opportunity to go to class, while he or his staff had to really keep tabs on the US kids. This was from a guy that had some of the highest graduation rates in the country.

Kids take education for granted here. I think its because of 2 reasons. 1 - it's free, and 2 - we tolerate mediocrity with concepts like "no student left behind". In other scocieties, if you're getting lousy grades, the government gets you out of school and into a trade. Kids get one shot at living a better life - school. If they screw up, that's it. You better like plumbing. And its amazing how much more appreciative these kids are towards their education opportunity.

good post Scott - take a look at any graduate program in the US, particularly quantitative fields (finance, economics, math, physics, etc). Most programs have a majority of foreign students.

Its too bad blacks had to be singled out in the conversation - even though they may have a 50% graduation rate, whites similarly only have a 75% graduation rate - much better, but still indicative of a major problem.

[Scott Campbell]

equal distribution of wealth

or something..........

http://asianbadger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/2stalin.GIF


Or this.........


http://www.moonbattery.com/starving_african_child.jpg

[falco]

i think rather than "equal distribution of wealth," ballhawk probably meant "income disparity" - a subtle but significant difference.

economists study the Gini coefficient, which measures the percentage of wealth held by different percentiles of the population. it is generally considered that the lower it is (the more evenly wealth is distributed), the better it is for society (lower poverty rates, lower crime rates, etc). however, any decent economist would say that that accomplishing this via transfer payments or redistribution of wealth is economically inefficient

[Iron Mike]

It really doesn't seem like 7 years ago.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!


Why would God want to bless America when America is doing all it can to vote God off of the island??? :roll:

[falco]

It really doesn't seem like 7 years ago.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!


Why would God want to bless America when America is doing all it can to vote God off of the island??? :roll:

:roll: :roll:

[Iron Mike]

AMISH GRACE

They may look all the same to outsiders--with quaint old-world practices brought over from Europe in the 1700s, and a distinctive way of life drawn from their reading of the Bible. But close to two years ago we learned from the Amish something profound about a people who refuse to be defined by the evil that assaults them.

The Amish often read the words of an old German hymn when they bury their dead.

In the small community of Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, this time two years ago they had need of words that comfort and mourn...

Five little girls had been buried in their simple white dresses...

Five others were in critical condition, their survival uncertain...

Among people bound by strong ties of family, faith, and tradition, whose children do not watch violent movies, video games, or television, ordinary life had been upended by wrenching horror...

On a cloudless October morning. Under a blue sky that reminded some people there of 9/11. The school bell called the children in from play.

Their teacher, Emma, read from the Bible, the children stood and recited the Lord's Prayer in German, then sang hymns in German and in English.

'Death often comes quickly,' said one of the hymns…. . 'He who today is vigorous and ruddy, may tomorrow, or sooner, have passed away.'

At around 10:15, a local milk truck driver named Charles Roberts IV, entered the school house bearing a small arsenal and a grudge against God.

After ordering the girls to lie face down on the floor, he called his wife on the phone and told her he was angry at God for the death of their firstborn daughter, Elise, nine years earlier. In execution style, Roberts began firing his semi-automatic pistol into the little girls lying on the floor. As police crashed into the school, he shot himself dead.

The media descended on Nickel Mines and the story circled the globe. As the Amish mourned and buried their children they were showered with messages and gifts from all over the world.

But what proved most helpful, we learned, was something hard to describe - 'a common painful thread' that drew the families together. The authors of Amish grace say the community had been prepared by thick habits of 'mutual aid', rooted in the New Testament commandment 'to bear one another's burdens'"

Then, 'with a swiftness that startled the world,' the stricken Amish did something remarkable — they forgave the killer, Charles Roberts, and reached out to his widow and children.

Three Amish men showed up one evening, to express their sorrow. Another called on the killer's father and for an hour held him in his arms. When Roberts himself was buried, next to his daughter, more than half the mourners at the cemetery were Amish. It was, one of them said, simply the right thing to do.

ANNOUNCER: "Have you already forgiven?"

AMISH GRANDFATHER: "In my heart, yes."

ANNOUNCER: "How is that possible?"

AMISH GRANDFATHER: "Through God's help."

TV COVERAGE: The Amish have forgiven the shooter...

But Amish grace is not cheap grace. The people and their ways may appear simple but they defy simplistic judgments. Their faith was born in suffering centuries ago, when their forebears called for a voluntary church free and separate from government and were martyred by the thousands at the hands of Protestants and Catholics alike. Grief is no stranger to the Amish, and healing has never been easy.


But one of the grieving fathers said, as they had released the killer, they had released themselves from anger and from bitterness. But not from pain.

A year after the killings in Pennsylvania, the old school has been torn down and replaced with one named 'New Hope'.

Three of the surviving five girls are back in class with the same teacher. On October 2 the school was closed and silent for the day, in remembrance.

On the anniversary of their loss, the community once again spoke to the larger world, in a statement saying that 'forgiveness is a journey...you need help from your community of faith and from God, and sometimes even from counselors, to make and hold on to a decision to not become a hostage to hostility.' Hostility, they said, 'destroys community.'


Maybe Harlan's right........Maybe we do need to move on.....

[bobblehead]

911 was caused by incompetents.


I agree with this. We had an invitingly soft underbelly exposed to an enemy we should have known would take advantage of it. It could have been anticipated. It should have been anticipated. And part of the good that came from all the suffering was that there were lessons learned.

Do you give the opposing team credit for attacking Jarret Bush in our secondary. No. Our team is accountable for fielding a better CB. So I don't blame the terrorists for 911. They were just taking what the defense gave them. I blame Kurt Schottenheimer.

Good God - I agree with Harlan on something. I need a shower.

So, if I murder you in your sleep its cool cuz you should have had a better alarm system?

[bobblehead]

40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018

Ayn did make valid point about how much of a problem the Islamists are in Europe. It made me realize how warm and fuzzy our Mexicans are, they're positively adorable in comparison. Time for people to stop bitchin, wake up and smell the MExicans.

I don't have rands skills for finding pictures...but insert a jerry mcguirre:

"I LOVE THE BROWN MAN!!!!"

[bobblehead]

Sorry for your inconvenience Tarlam. But its the lesser of 2 evils. My kids don't like having to lock their bikes up either. But it beats having them stolen. It's too bad, but Mayberry doesn't exist anymore.

Let me show you gov't at work.

9/11 occurs...simple solution. Lock off the cockpit from the cabin and make it policy to land any hijacked plane at the nearest terminal. Planes can never be used for a weapon again.

Gov't solution: random strip searches of 70 year old white grandmas. Fingernail files getting broken at security points. You can't carry water past security point. Billions of dollars are spent on new administrative positions and manual checking stations. Millions of travelers are extremely inconvenienced. Security toy soldier renta cops think they are dirty harry.

[Scott Campbell]

Maybe Harlan's right........Maybe we do need to move on.....



I think moving on becomes much more possible if the perp is in jail or dead. Our perps are still out there, and they still want to kill us.

[Scott Campbell]

Gov't solution: random strip searches of 70 year old white grandmas. Fingernail files getting broken at security points. You can't carry water past security point. Billions of dollars are spent on new administrative positions and manual checking stations. Millions of travelers are extremely inconvenienced. Security toy soldier renta cops think they are dirty harry.


I agree. Much of that is for the appearance of safety, rather than real meaningful safety policy.

[texaspackerbacker]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

[Scott Campbell]

911 was caused by incompetents.


I agree with this. We had an invitingly soft underbelly exposed to an enemy we should have known would take advantage of it. It could have been anticipated. It should have been anticipated. And part of the good that came from all the suffering was that there were lessons learned.

Do you give the opposing team credit for attacking Jarret Bush in our secondary. No. Our team is accountable for fielding a better CB. So I don't blame the terrorists for 911. They were just taking what the defense gave them. I blame Kurt Schottenheimer.

Good God - I agree with Harlan on something. I need a shower.

So, if I murder you in your sleep its cool cuz you should have had a better alarm system?


HAHAHAHA!

Good luck getting past my dog. Or my wives.

[Scott Campbell]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.



Iceland has more hot chicks per capita.

[BallHawk]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

[texaspackerbacker]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

Countries only a socialist could love! Which one are you gonna move too--since you prefer them to the U.S.?

And what will become of them when your boy, Obama, gets in and takes away the American umbrella of protection for them? If you like Euro-style socialism, you'll probably LOVE jihadist-style Sharia Law.

Congrats on responding, though. That puts you a cut above most of the truly No-Ball leftists in the forum.

[falco]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

Countries only a socialist could love! Which one are you gonna move too--since you prefer them to the U.S.?

And what will become of them when your boy, Obama, gets in and takes away the American umbrella of protection for them? If you like Euro-style socialism, you'll probably LOVE jihadist-style Sharia Law.

Congrats on responding, though. That puts you a cut above most of the truly No-Ball leftists in the forum.

Congrats on waiting until he posted to lambast him! Especially since you would have done so regardless of what he would have listed...

[bobblehead]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

Countries only a socialist could love! Which one are you gonna move too--since you prefer them to the U.S.?

And what will become of them when your boy, Obama, gets in and takes away the American umbrella of protection for them? If you like Euro-style socialism, you'll probably LOVE jihadist-style Sharia Law.

Congrats on responding, though. That puts you a cut above most of the truly No-Ball leftists in the forum.

Ireland is much more capitalist than the USA at this point, we should be copying them....and I can't move their, they don't let people in very easily....unlike us where you can simply sneak across the border.

[BallHawk]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

Countries only a socialist could love! Which one are you gonna move too--since you prefer them to the U.S.?

And what will become of them when your boy, Obama, gets in and takes away the American umbrella of protection for them? If you like Euro-style socialism, you'll probably LOVE jihadist-style Sharia Law.

Congrats on responding, though. That puts you a cut above most of the truly No-Ball leftists in the forum.

Ireland is much more capitalist than the USA at this point, we should be copying them....and I can't move their, they don't let people in very easily....unlike us where you can simply sneak across the border.

Rigorous immigration policy based on proper usage of: there, their, and they're. :wink:

[BallHawk]

Rigorous immigration policy based on proper usage of: there, their, and they're. :wink:

In that case, I don't foresee many people on this forum buying property in Dublin in the near future.

[Scott Campbell]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.


Northern Hemisphere?

[BallHawk]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.


Northern Hemisphere?

All except for Australia.

But, no, that ain't it.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Rigorous immigration policy based on proper usage of: there, their, and they're. :wink:

In that case, I don't foresee many people on this forum buying property in Dublin in the near future.

Fuck the Irish, luring Ty to the Emerald isle with craic!

[swede]

:lol:

[texaspackerbacker]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

Countries only a socialist could love! Which one are you gonna move too--since you prefer them to the U.S.?

And what will become of them when your boy, Obama, gets in and takes away the American umbrella of protection for them? If you like Euro-style socialism, you'll probably LOVE jihadist-style Sharia Law.

Congrats on responding, though. That puts you a cut above most of the truly No-Ball leftists in the forum.

Congrats on waiting until he posted to lambast him! Especially since you would have done so regardless of what he would have listed...

I didn't think he'd list ANY--because in reality, there are NONE--nations superior to this country and the people in it by any comprehensive objective standard.

Is it lambasting to gently point out how wrongheaded somebody is? The ones I lambast are the genitalia-impaired leftists of the forum who never saw an issue they didn't run away from--and with good reason, because they are so wrong and out of tune with the views and values of normal America-loving Americans.

You can forward your prize to me, Ballhawk. The most obvious thing all those countries have in common is that they are dependent on America for protection against the world's evil forces--yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

[falco]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

Countries only a socialist could love! Which one are you gonna move too--since you prefer them to the U.S.?

And what will become of them when your boy, Obama, gets in and takes away the American umbrella of protection for them? If you like Euro-style socialism, you'll probably LOVE jihadist-style Sharia Law.

Congrats on responding, though. That puts you a cut above most of the truly No-Ball leftists in the forum.

Congrats on waiting until he posted to lambast him! Especially since you would have done so regardless of what he would have listed...

I didn't think he'd list ANY--because in reality, there are NONE--nations superior to this country and the people in it by any comprehensive objective standard.

Is it lambasting to gently point out how wrongheaded somebody is? The ones I lambast are the genitalia-impaired leftists of the forum who never saw an issue they didn't run away from--and with good reason, because they are so wrong and out of tune with the views and values of normal America-loving Americans.

You can forward your prize to me, Ballhawk. The most obvious thing all those countries have in common is that they are dependent on America for protection against the world's evil forces--yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

http://www1.ecxmall.com/stores/familyestore/catalog/Patriotic%20knuckle%20sandwich%20small.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.


Northern Hemisphere?

All except for Australia.

But, no, that ain't it.



When you'd sneak the Aussies in there? :?:

[HowardRoark]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.

The Governmnet has taken over healthcare in all these countries.

[Scott Campbell]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.

The Governmnet has taken over healthcare in all these countries.


Then why not Great Britain?

[HowardRoark]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.

The Governmnet has taken over healthcare in all these countries.


Then why not Great Britain?

Evidently Ballhawk doesn't prefer bangers and mash.

[BallHawk]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.

The Governmnet has taken over healthcare in all these countries.


Then why not Great Britain?

Evidently Ballhawk doesn't prefer bangers and mash.

As much as I like my home country of the UK (and bangers and mash), the country is going to shit. Gordon Brown is incompetent, too much immigration, and the healthcare in that country is god awful. The problem there isn't NHS it's how it's executed.

And nobody's got it, yet. Keep on thinking.

[HowardRoark]

The problem there isn't NHS it's how it's executed.

That’s the same problem the perpetual motion machine has……..execution.

[retailguy]

All the countries I listed have something in common. First one to realize what it is gets a prize.

The Governmnet has taken over healthcare in all these countries.


Then why not Great Britain?

Evidently Ballhawk doesn't prefer bangers and mash.

As much as I like my home country of the UK (and bangers and mash), the country is going to shit. Gordon Brown is incompetent, too much immigration, and the healthcare in that country is god awful. The problem there isn't NHS it's how it's executed.

And nobody's got it, yet. Keep on thinking.

A good liberal like you would defer to the wisdom of the United Nations.

That would be the top 11 of the "human development index", I believe. You probably should inform the rest of the forum that our good buddies in the UN ranked us 12th.... Of course, we'd probably shoot up the list if we paid our dues, though, wouldn't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

[BallHawk]

A good liberal like you would defer to the wisdom of the United Nations.

That would be the top 11 of the "human development index", I believe. You probably should inform the rest of the forum that our good buddies in the UN ranked us 12th.... Of course, we'd probably shoot up the list if we paid our dues, though, wouldn't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Our good buddies probably don't know what the HDI is. :oops:

Do you have any proof that the HDI is biased or slanted in any way? :?:

[retailguy]

A good liberal like you would defer to the wisdom of the United Nations.

That would be the top 11 of the "human development index", I believe. You probably should inform the rest of the forum that our good buddies in the UN ranked us 12th.... Of course, we'd probably shoot up the list if we paid our dues, though, wouldn't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Our good buddies probably don't know what the HDI is. :oops:

Do you have any proof that the HDI is biased or slanted in any way? :?:

You know, I don't have any "evidence", not that I'd be in a position to gather any. I have a general distrust of the UN and what it does. I personally believe, that the UN has a bias towards making the US look bad, to minimize it's importance. Because to be honest, what stands in the way of a more powerful UN is the US. Without the US, the UN would have a lot more clout and power.

I do believe that "achievements" by the US are minimized in importance and that we are singled out by anyone when we're less than perfect.

[BallHawk]

I will agree that the UN is a crock of bullshit in its current state. It needs to be COMPLETELY restructured. Its current alignment guarantees nothing important gets done and locks out countries that need to have greater influence. WWII was 60 years ago let's mess around with the Security Council. Brazil, Germany, Japan, etc. are locked out under the current structure.

[texaspackerbacker]

The whole CONCEPT of a United Nations is a crock of shit.

The ONLY way it would have any value whatsoever would be if the U.S. had 51% voting rights for ANY question or issue brought up.

Sure, leftists snicker at such an idea, but what would be the result?

There would be an automatic mechanism for promoting goodness and compassion worldwide, There would be an automatic force available to deal with any evil that could arise--American forces would not be the ones to police the world, merely to assume command and control, and provide sophisticated weapn support as needed.

There would no longer be the supremely valid reasons that exist now for Americans to hate and disrespect the UN, as it would be strictly OUR tool--the means by which we engineered a freer, more peaceful, healthier, better educated world--at far less expense, monetarily and otherwise, to American taxpayers than now.

Hell Yeah, I know it will never happen, but if you think about it, the only thing really standing in the way is the attitudes of the American left. Most of us would have no qualms about just telling the world, "this is the way it's gonna be, You're either with us or you're on the outside looking in".

[Harlan Huckleby]

I will agree that the UN is a crock of bullshit in its current state. It needs to be COMPLETELY restructured. Its current alignment guarantees nothing important gets done and locks out countries that need to have greater influence. WWII was 60 years ago let's mess around with the Security Council. Brazil, Germany, Japan, etc. are locked out under the current structure.

not having Brazil or India on the security council is ridiculous. And Europe should have one representative, not two.

I think the U.N. does some significant nuts-and-bolts work - surpervising elections, promoting health, aiding refugees. They are useless in issues that involve power struggles.

[bobblehead]

Yup, the terrorist hate us because we love apple pie and baseball.

And jerkin the gherkin!

[bobblehead]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

I have to admit, Iran kills homosexuals better than we do. There are other examples, but this one I'm rock solid on.

[bobblehead]

(No)Ballhawk, I'm still waiting to here what nations you think are equal to or better than America/Americans--by any rational criteria including the lame things you cited.

Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland

Countries only a socialist could love! Which one are you gonna move too--since you prefer them to the U.S.?

And what will become of them when your boy, Obama, gets in and takes away the American umbrella of protection for them? If you like Euro-style socialism, you'll probably LOVE jihadist-style Sharia Law.

Congrats on responding, though. That puts you a cut above most of the truly No-Ball leftists in the forum.

Ireland is much more capitalist than the USA at this point, we should be copying them....and I can't move their, they don't let people in very easily....unlike us where you can simply sneak across the border.

Rigorous immigration policy based on proper usage of: there, their, and they're. :wink:

Yea, like i said, I can't get in they're because their two tough with there immigration policies, can't you reed? If you are gonna bother proofreading my posts you have a full time job on you're hands cuz I am concentrating on a point of view, not proficiency. (and yes your write, i used the wrong you're on purpose.)

[bobblehead]

A good liberal like you would defer to the wisdom of the United Nations.

That would be the top 11 of the "human development index", I believe. You probably should inform the rest of the forum that our good buddies in the UN ranked us 12th.... Of course, we'd probably shoot up the list if we paid our dues, though, wouldn't we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Our good buddies probably don't know what the HDI is. :oops:

Do you have any proof that the HDI is biased or slanted in any way? :?:

Let me get this straight...while they were sneaking oil out of iraq behind everyones back and wasting money on condo renovations they were making a list on HDI and ranking us 12th. Well, that settles it then, we suck, they said so.

Incidently I would like to see national healthcare in other countries if they were disallowed from using any drugs created in the good old USA.

[BallHawk]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

I have to admit, Iran kills homosexuals better than we do. There are other examples, but this one I'm rock solid on.

What are you talking about? There aren't any homosexuals in Iran, HE says so.

[Freak Out]

Incidently I would like to see national healthcare in other countries if they were disallowed from using any drugs created in the good old USA.

It's not like they get them for free.

[bobblehead]

Incidently I would like to see national healthcare in other countries if they were disallowed from using any drugs created in the good old USA.

It's not like they get them for free.

No, they just get them CREATED for free.

[texaspackerbacker]

Incidently I would like to see national healthcare in other countries if they were disallowed from using any drugs created in the good old USA.

It's not like they get them for free.

I think you're missing the point, Freakout.

OUR magnificent health care system--which leftists malign and whine that they favor socialized medicine instead of--has produced virtually ALL of the technological advances--pharmaceutical and otherwise in the last century or so.

Where would these countries be without those advances--which arguably would not have occurred in a non-free enterprise setting like theirs?

Likewise, where would these countries be if not for the protection they enjoy under the American military umbrella from little insignificant forces like Nazism, Communism, and radical Islam?

In a world of shit, that's where--in both cases.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Incidently I would like to see national healthcare in other countries if they were disallowed from using any drugs created in the good old USA.

It's not like they get them for free.

No, they just get them CREATED for free.

How so? Do they not buy products..which then gives pharm the profits to explore new products?

[bobblehead]

Incidently I would like to see national healthcare in other countries if they were disallowed from using any drugs created in the good old USA.

It's not like they get them for free.

No, they just get them CREATED for free.

How so? Do they not buy products..which then gives pharm the profits to explore new products?

They pay reduced/negotiated, non free market prices. they pay prices that wouldn't get the drug created. they pay a price subsidized by the american people paying a higher price....yay nationalized medicine...it will slow down the march of progress.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Incidently I would like to see national healthcare in other countries if they were disallowed from using any drugs created in the good old USA.

It's not like they get them for free.

No, they just get them CREATED for free.

How so? Do they not buy products..which then gives pharm the profits to explore new products?

They pay reduced/negotiated, non free market prices. they pay prices that wouldn't get the drug created. they pay a price subsidized by the american people paying a higher price....yay nationalized medicine...it will slow down the march of progress.

But, they still pay....so, let's not overstate things.

Again, we disagree. We see plenty of innovation and the best military in the world..yet, the don't get to make obscene profits (i know, obscene is a liberal concept..just ignore it).