What is it that makes you whatever you are?

[Maxie the Taxi]

All of us fancy ourselves as fair-minded and objective. I certainly do. Yet, I react to political ads, news and commentary with an undeniable "body English." That is, when confronted with a new piece of information, I feel myself twisting, wanting that news item to conform to my currently held point of view. When it does, I feel satisfied and smug. When it doesn't, I want to reject the news item as fabricated or the source as unreliable or I want to rationalize the new information as irrelevant to my point of view. I assume we all do this. The question is WHY?

What is that fundamental, core belief that causes you to hold one political point of view rather than another? That causes you to be a "liberal" rather than a "conservative" or vice versa? That causes you to "lean" with your body English toward Obama rather than McCain or vice versa?

I say "political" point of view, because I don't necessarily want to start philosophical arguments here. Politics and elections have to do with how we conduct ourselves in society, how we feel we should live and interact together with one another, not how we should live our own lives as individuals according to some lofty philosophical or religious truth.

I think the fundamental, core belief that causes me to lean toward the conservative or libertarian point of view in social matters is my more or less pragmatic belief that a firm concept of private property will facilitate a more or less conflict-free social climate. It seems to me that if a society is based on the pretty black and white principle that what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours, then that society will have more peace and less conflict. If the line between what is mine and what is yours is fuzzy or up for grabs, then I think that society will be doomed to conflict and contentiousness.

Unfortunately, there are very few politicians who hold my view. In an election I'm forced to choose the one who will draw that private property line as sharply as possible. This means I generally am sympathetic to and vote for Republicans (or Libertarians) rather than Democrats. It means I get very passionate against a particular Democrat who defines private property in such a fuzzy way that he thinks my wealth, my private property, should be taken from me and given to someone else who is, supposedly, more deserving of it than I am. It explains my body English when I'm reading a story about a politician I like (Sarah Palin, for example) that implies this politician might not be all I want her to be with regard to her stance on strict private property rights.

Obviously, all voters are not motivated by a fundamental belief that society would work better if rights of private property were strictly enforced and adhered to. So I'm curious. What fundamental political belief causes a person to lean toward Obama or the Democrats or the "liberal" position?

Is it a belief that society will run much more smoothly if it is based on the principle that "I am my brother's keeper?" Is it a belief that a society will be more peaceful if it is based on some specifically defined idea of fairness? Or justice? Or even religious principle?

I really don't know and would really like to know. Any thoughts?

[HowardRoark]

Anecdotally, and I don’t want to speak for the Left (in fact, this is a great question…it gets to the crux of the matter; why do you think the way you do?), but a lot of intelligent people I know, who when pressed, think Conservative or Libertarian, would never be caught dead hanging with the “uncool kids’……………Conservatives.

Also, it’s not only Private “property”……but also Private “thinking.” As a Conservative, I don’t want to be told what to do. I think the Left needs the “elite” to tell them how to think. Thus they will NEVER see what you are talking about in your other tread.

[HarveyWallbangers]

More than anything, it's the fact that I think government should be small and limited. A government that entrusts in the individual. It's up to the individual to be responsible with this enormous gift. That doesn't mean ignoring those that truly can't help for themselves, but too many people take advantage of more socialistic government. It just doesn't work. What you get is an inefficient, overbearing government that creates citizens that are lazy and are less motivated to invent and produce.

[Freak Out]

Anecdotally, and I don’t want to speak for the Left (in fact, this is a great question…it gets to the crux of the matter; why do you think the way you do?), but a lot of intelligent people I know, who when pressed, think Conservative or Libertarian, would never be caught dead hanging with the “uncool kids’……………Conservatives.

Also, it’s not only Private “property”……but also Private “thinking.” As a Conservative, I don’t want to be told what to do. I think the Left needs the “elite” to tell them how to think. Thus they will NEVER see what you are talking about in your other tread.

What BS....the "left" needs the elite to tell them what to do? I'm as left as they come on most issues and I'll tell the "Elite" to fuck themselves...whether its Hussein, Mac, Bush or Palin for that matter...she's acting pretty "Elite" now as far as I'm concerned.

[HowardRoark]

Anecdotally, and I don’t want to speak for the Left (in fact, this is a great question…it gets to the crux of the matter; why do you think the way you do?), but a lot of intelligent people I know, who when pressed, think Conservative or Libertarian, would never be caught dead hanging with the “uncool kids’……………Conservatives.

Also, it’s not only Private “property”……but also Private “thinking.” As a Conservative, I don’t want to be told what to do. I think the Left needs the “elite” to tell them how to think. Thus they will NEVER see what you are talking about in your other tread.

What BS....the "left" needs the elite to tell them what to do? I'm as left as they come on most issues and I'll tell the "Elite" to fuck themselves...whether its Hussein, Mac, Bush or Palin for that matter...she's acting pretty "Elite" now as far as I'm concerned.

You have always come across as a Libertarian to me. I could be wrong.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'd say my 10" shlong is at the core of my identity.

[mraynrand]

e pluribus unum

liberty

In God we trust

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think the fundamental, core belief that causes me to lean toward the conservative or libertarian point of view in social matters is my more or less pragmatic belief that a firm concept of private property will facilitate a more or less conflict-free social climate. It seems to me that if a society is based on the pretty black and white principle that what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours, then that society will have more peace and less conflict.

I don't think history supports your theory. Greed leads to too much injustice and inequality, not stability. We tried your method in the 19th century, and the gilded age.

I'd say the core value that makes me a liberal is pretty much the opposite of your view. I am all for freedom and property rights, but a totally free market leads to hellish conditions for most of the population. Like back in the days of lords and serfs.

But I'm not really all that liberal. I'm comfortable with McCain. And I am pro-business.

[Freak Out]

In God we trust

Most Gods have proven to be pretty untrustworthy over the ages.

[mraynrand]

In God we trust

Most Gods have proven to be pretty untrustworthy over the ages.

Really? On what do you base your claim? Is it possibly that the people who believe in certain gods have been the ones in the wrong. Also, if there is but one God, perhaps it is people believing in false gods who have been untrustworthy.

[mraynrand]

I am all for freedom and property rights, but a totally free market leads to hellish conditions for most of the population. Like back in the days of lords and serfs.

That was a free market?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I am all for freedom and property rights, but a totally free market leads to hellish conditions for most of the population. Like back in the days of lords and serfs.

That was a free market?


There weren't a lot of protections for the workers, they were at the mercy of the property owners.

[mraynrand]

I am all for freedom and property rights, but a totally free market leads to hellish conditions for most of the population. Like back in the days of lords and serfs.

That was a free market?


There weren't a lot of protections for the workers, they were at the mercy of the property owners.

in other words, they weren't free, were they? So it wasn't really a free market for everyone was it?

[texaspackerbacker]

Good thought provoking post, Maxie. I, too, really doubt that you're gonna get any/many serious responses from forum leftists--just as I didn't long ago when I tried to draw them out about positions and views. In their hearts, they KNOW how wrong and out of tune they are, and they run and hide accordingly, occasionally coming out from under their rocks only for brief bursts of sarcasm and/or hate.

As for the ELITISM thing, I think it is less accurate to say they want the Elite to tell them what to do as to say they ARE the Elite, and they want to tell others what to do--especially looking down on those of us who practice traditional American, Christian, and free enterprise views and values. A lot of those who VOTE for their side may want to be told how to live by the Elites, but the leaders and ranters of their side ARE the Elites--especially in their own minds.

Now to answer the original question:

The heart and soul of everything I think/feel/say is AMERICA--AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM--call it what it is, AMERICAN SUPERIORITY.

I just think it is slam-dunk obvious that this is the greatest country in the history of the world by any rational standard you can name.

Different Americans might have different ideas as to the order of importance of these, but ALL are indisputably true: We are the FREEST most PROSPEROUS most POWERFUL most COMPASSIONATE nation in the world--nation being definable as either the country in general or the PEOPLE of that country.

Any THREAT to that status and position of America, therefore, becomes THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE. And, of course, the TOP TWO of those are: Terrorism against America--which could potentially CHANGE everything--there's that ugly word again--CHANGE, and the Economy--which rises and falls in inverse proportion to taxes.

So many people dwell on LESSER issues, which ultimately do NOT affect our lives and lifestyles one iota.

[Maxie the Taxi]

texas,

I appreciate your point of view. In the end it's not a whole lot different than mine.

I hope you're wrong about getting responses from forum membes with different points of view. As to "elitism", I refuse to speculate on what motivates people. I'd rather they'd just tell me so I can understand and figure out a way to live together without this constant political vitriol.

[texaspackerbacker]

That was what led to my referring to the leftists as "gonadally challenged" among other things.

Maybe if you talk nice to them, they will come out of their holes and respond, but I doubt it. Ultimately, they just don't have anything intelligent to say, and they are suitably ashamed about that.

[HowardRoark]

As to "elitism", I refuse to speculate on what motivates people.

I apologize for bringing up the Elitist issue. It was Elitist of me.

[LL2]

Anecdotally, and I don’t want to speak for the Left (in fact, this is a great question…it gets to the crux of the matter; why do you think the way you do?), but a lot of intelligent people I know, who when pressed, think Conservative or Libertarian, would never be caught dead hanging with the “uncool kids’……………Conservatives.

Also, it’s not only Private “property”……but also Private “thinking.” As a Conservative, I don’t want to be told what to do. I think the Left needs the “elite” to tell them how to think. Thus they will NEVER see what you are talking about in your other tread.

What BS....the "left" needs the elite to tell them what to do? I'm as left as they come on most issues and I'll tell the "Elite" to fuck themselves...whether its Hussein, Mac, Bush or Palin for that matter...she's acting pretty "Elite" now as far as I'm concerned.


When I read your statement fast and skip the jibberesh in the middle it becomes an interesting statement.

[Maxie the Taxi]

As to "elitism", I refuse to speculate on what motivates people.

I apologize for bringing up the Elitist issue. It was Elitist of me.

You weren't being elitist. This is being elitist:


http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr125/ciribiribin/liberal_oxymorons.jpg

[hoosier]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

QFT

[texaspackerbacker]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

Sure you were, Hoosier.

Just like you always are so full of liberal insight and rational arguments.

Run and hide like your kind ALWAYS does. Your situation is hopeless anyway. There simply is NO liberal leg to stand on with regard to basically any issue to be discussed.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

My bad. Well, actually, Howard's bad. :oops:

[hoosier]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

Sure you were, Hoosier.

Just like you always are so full of liberal insight and rational arguments.

Run and hide like your kind ALWAYS does. Your situation is hopeless anyway. There simply is NO liberal leg to stand on with regard to basically any issue to be discussed.

After all this time you still don't understand why nobody will debate you. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, seeing how you selectively accept or reject information depending on whether it suits or conflicts with your worldview. Arguing with you is like trying to make whipped cream out of water. But why should your understanding of my and others' refusal to respond to you be any different?

[SkinBasket]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

QFT

Come on fellas. What happened to that legendary sense of humor you liberals possess?

[texaspackerbacker]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

Sure you were, Hoosier.

Just like you always are so full of liberal insight and rational arguments.

Run and hide like your kind ALWAYS does. Your situation is hopeless anyway. There simply is NO liberal leg to stand on with regard to basically any issue to be discussed.

After all this time you still don't understand why nobody will debate you. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, seeing how you selectively accept or reject information depending on whether it suits or conflicts with your worldview. Arguing with you is like trying to make whipped cream out of water. But why should your understanding of my and others' refusal to respond to you be any different?

Hoosier, there are FACTS, and they are all stacked against your kind. There are viewpoints that are normal/decent/in tune with the great majority of America-loving Americans, and they, too, are stacked against your sick kind.

I really don't give a damn if you don't have the balls to attempt a rational argument. There's nothing your kind can say that has any semblance of rationality anyway.

It's just kinda sick that you can live in this country, take up space, soak up the benefits, and not appreciate the greatness of all we have--not to mention supporting the politicians and media types who are actively trying to tear down all the greatness that you don't acknowledge or appreciate anyway.

So now you have two choices: spew your America-hating leftist crap--proving what I just said OR run and hide like you and cowards like you usually do. I really don't give a damn which choice you make.

[mraynrand]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/baby_crying_closeup.jpg

[GrnBay007]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/baby_crying_closeup.jpg

Don't post that stuff. It makes me miss having lil babies around. :P :shock:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I was going to respond that your original post was a good one, seemingly open minded and just interested in an honest intellectual exchange about convictions. But your last post destroyed that sentiment entirely. Oh well.

QFT

Come on fellas. What happened to that legendary sense of humor you liberals possess?

I'm not saying it isn't funny.

But, if you want to get into an honest intellectual exchange...that certainly doesn't seem to be a post that reflects that goal.

[cpk1994]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/baby_crying_closeup.jpg

Don't post that stuff. It makes me miss having lil babies around. :P :shock:Still miss Favre huh? :lol:

[Harlan Huckleby]

:lol: