Dallas O-line, Packer O-line

[Patler]

I apologize for starting yet another Packer/Cowboy thread. The offensive lines are being referred to in several threads, and I thought it would be interesting to focus on them.

The Cowboy line is almost a collection of misfits. it was only a few years ago that they were not very good. One of the reasons that Jones gave for bringing in Rivera was to have a player who could show the other lineman how the game should be played. (This is all Rivera's fault! :lol:)

Flozzell Adams - sort of an up-and-down career. The Cowboys seemed to have gone from loving him, to hating him, to loving him. 33 years old.

Leonard Davis - started out good in Arizona but seemed to be spiraling downward after six years. In fairness to him, he was moved all over the line. However, most reporters thought Jones had lost his mind offering such a huge guaranteed contract to what seemed to be an underachiever. Most who follow the Cowboys thought it would be a waste of money. Turned 30 this month.

Marc Columbo - almost the definition of an underachiever with the Bears, wh o gave up on him after four seasons and only a handful of starts. Turns 30 early next month.

Kyle Kosier - drafted by San Francisco and signed by the Lions to a one-year contract as a restricted free agent. San Francisco declined to match the Lions one-year offer, accepting a seventh round draft choice instead. Signed by Dallas as a free agent the following season. Turns 30 in November.

Gurode - has been a decent player. 30 years old.


I think the success of the Dallas line demonstrates that you need to find the right combination of players with significant experience as players individually for a line to come together. Players who look unimpressive in some situations, with others around them, can develop into a cohesive and productive unit. The middle of Green Bay's line could start to come together yet. The problem may be in that the tackles are significantly older, and may not be around to be a part of it for very long.

[The Gunshooter]

I saw Moll get bitch slapped and thrown aside like a sack of shit. How is he going to ever be more than a weakling?

[Patler]

I saw Moll get bitch slapped and thrown aside like a sack of shit. How is he going to ever be more than a weakling?

I don't consider Moll to be a starter. He is a backup at best at this point. We'll see what happens if Wells and Sitton are ready to play.


But that is also part of the point I was making. Columbo looked like a wasted draft pick in Chicago, probably as inconsistent as Moll, and dominated just as badly on some plays. He had injuries that slowed his development. Moll was injured a big part of last season. Moll played tackle just one year in college. He had been a TE before that. He is still learning how to play in the line, and may never be the right one in the mix. Or, like Columbo, he could emerge in another year or two.

[CaliforniaCheez]

The difference in the two Offensive Lines lead to everything else in the game. Experience is a big key. That and the ability to add muscle as male body ages. The Cowboy's line is simply better.


If you are an optimist, you consider Colledge the guy to take over for Clifton. If you have blind faith, Giacomini is the guy to take over for Tauscher. A realist will draft an OT.

I've seen a lot of criticism of the zone blocking scheme following the game. Maybe I'm old school but if you have good enough players they can play in any system.

The Packer DT's and KGB were pretty well handled. DT is another priority for next year's draft.

I sure hope the Jets win tonight and the win helps them to the playoffs.
Having 2 2nd round picks will be nice as the Packers need to draft a quality DT, a quality OT, and a quality CB in the first two rounds.

This is a solid playoff team but not a championship one.

[pbmax]

He got beat once, badly, for a sack. Can you please provide other details?

I saw Moll get bitch slapped and thrown aside like a sack of shit. How is he going to ever be more than a weakling?

[Noodle]

Whoever knocked on FOX for crap camera angles of downfield coverage should add another knock for crap angles of the o-line play.

We all saw Cool Hand sprinting out of the pocket and hardly ever stepping in to the pocket.

What I wanted to know was whether there was any inside pocket to step in to. That is, did the interior guys give him any space to step foward, as Romo did time after time? Or did the kid just get spooked?

Moll and the inside boys may not have given up a ton of sacks, but if they failed to hold the inside of the pocket, then that's damn near as damnable.

[pbmax]

The Cowboys O Line can be had and the Giants and Patriots demonstrated it last year. Large does not mean successful in all situations. Holding them to 27 when you had little support from your offense wasn't a calamity. As Patler aptly describes them, these misfits are not a collection of All Pros.

The Packers found a pass rush in the second half although they still failed to get home enough. The question I have would be whether they changed the scheme to get that pressure or was it the same personnel attacking? If they changed the scheme, my question is did that open up the 3rd WR for those two bombs?

The most depressing event was watching Kampman get handled by Columbo. That and Pickett give ground to the double team. It wasn't exciting to see Jolly have the best game.

[Patler]

The most depressing event was watching Kampman get handled by Columbo. That and Pickett give ground to the double team. It wasn't exciting to see Jolly have the best game.

If you can, watch replays. For some reason early in the game I started to focus on the Columbo/Kampman matchup whenever it could be seen in a replay. From what I saw early, I made it a point to concentrate on it.

While there weren't a lot of replays, I can't tell you how many times in pass protection Columbo had a hand on Kampman's facemask. It seemed like every one that was shown. Sometimes he would just give a quick shove, but other times he would grab and give a quick tug and then let go. He never had it long, and never was called for anything. It happened so often that it had to be intentional.

[Deputy Nutz]

He got beat once, badly, for a sack. Can you please provide other details?

I saw Moll get bitch slapped and thrown aside like a sack of shit. How is he going to ever be more than a weakling?


Moll was consistently walked back into Rodgers. This is no good especially when the Cowboys bring fast speed rushers off the edge. Rodgers had no chance to step up in the pocket because Moll was jammed up in Rodgers' grill all night long.

[KYPack]

Moll is a useful back-up. He basically got handled, but he is a average "human tool" at two positions. You need him around, but the bench is his home.

Colledge held his own, which surprised me. I've been scared of that boy ever since last years Dallas game. DC DID get tossed like a sack of dung in that game and got his ass benched for it. He didn't have a stellar game, but he held his own and I think there is a light at the end of his tunnel instead of an oncoming train.

There is another problem that will be fixed. Yesterday was the third straight game that there was a botched center snap Between ARod & Spitz. Spitz is short snapping. Sometimes he snaps the ball a tiny fraction early to try and get an advantage on the DT. That's a veteran center trick, but Jason doesn't know how to do it, evidently. Wells will get his gig back, if and when he's healthy.

[bobblehead]

The difference in the two Offensive Lines lead to everything else in the game. Experience is a big key. That and the ability to add muscle as male body ages. The Cowboy's line is simply better.



And Older.. this is one of the simplist truest posts I have ever read. The OL is a position that is hard to excel at when you are 21-25.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He got beat once, badly, for a sack. Can you please provide other details?

I saw Moll get bitch slapped and thrown aside like a sack of shit. How is he going to ever be more than a weakling?

The breakdowns occured from all areas of the offensive line. I didn't notice that Moll was particularly bad. And I thought the offensive line played reasonably well, it wasn't like they were getting rattled and overwhelmed.

[bobblehead]

The most depressing event was watching Kampman get handled by Columbo. That and Pickett give ground to the double team. It wasn't exciting to see Jolly have the best game.

If you can, watch replays. For some reason early in the game I started to focus on the Columbo/Kampman matchup whenever it could be seen in a replay. From what I saw early, I made it a point to concentrate on it.

While there weren't a lot of replays, I can't tell you how many times in pass protection Columbo had a hand on Kampman's facemask. It seemed like every one that was shown. Sometimes he would just give a quick shove, but other times he would grab and give a quick tug and then let go. He never had it long, and never was called for anything. It happened so often that it had to be intentional.

Early I thought Kamp held in there, but the boys made a point of running right at him to wear him down. That hand to the mask punch or twist move is a trademark of the cowboys going back before they did it to reggie. Back in the day a martial arts instructor showed jerry jones how pushing a guys chin and misaligning his neck took all his power away and the cowboys have been getting away with it every since (although they are more subtle nowdays). what bothers me is that back in the day ESPN did a piece on it...you would think the league would crack down on it, but nope, the boys are a good TV draw.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Harlan,

You can defend this OL all you want (because you don't want Wells back starting), but the fact is: Jay Ratliff was the most impressive front seven player for Dallas last night, and he primarily went up against Spitz and Moll.

[Harlan Huckleby]

My opinion about Wells is that Sitton may improve the O-line more than him.

I don't see how this opinion relates to your comment. Obviously Moll is the temp who will soon lose a starting job.

My point on the O-line from last night is that they did not get overwhelmed. They need to get better, but they aren't a lost cause.

[Patler]

The running game was mediocre at best.
The Cowboys generated significant pressure rushing only 4 or 5, even when the Packers kept two in the backfield to block.

I can't see anyway of looking at that except that the O-line did not play well.

[mraynrand]

One interesting aspect to your original post, Patler, is that the O-line might be a good spot to improve via free agency. TT tried it the bargain basement way in his first year, and it failed miserably. But it seems possible that at least one position could be solidified by free agency. If Tauscher and Clifton really are in a downward spiral, and Wells is chronically hurt and/or too small, it's going to be hard to replace three positions all at the same time with draft picks. The chances of getting another draft with rookies like Clifton and Tauscher who can play right away seems slim, given TT's success at drafting linemen so far.

[Harlan Huckleby]

the O-line might be a good spot to improve via free agency. TT tried it the bargain basement way in his first year, and it failed miserably.


I think linemen on both sides of the ball are worth going after in FA. It is too hard to predict future winners through the draft at those positions.

[Patler]

One interesting aspect to your original post, Patler, is that the O-line might be a good spot to improve via free agency. TT tried it the bargain basement way in his first year, and it failed miserably. But it seems possible that at least one position could be solidified by free agency. If Tauscher and Clifton really are in a downward spiral, and Wells is chronically hurt and/or too small, it's going to be hard to replace three positions all at the same time with draft picks. The chances of getting another draft with rookies like Clifton and Tauscher who can play right away seems slim, given TT's success at drafting linemen so far.

Well, sort of.

Colombo was released by Chicago (as I recall) and appears to have been a minimum wage signing by the Cowboys. He was there for two years before getting much more than minimum salaries.

Kosier wasn't a big signing, in view of the much higher salary cap. More than Klemm, but not a big deal. Two teams essentially became disinterested in keeping him.

The big one was Leonard Davis. The best article I saw about that was a Cowboy writer who said when Davis got the contract he did, linemen everywhere rejoiced, stopped their off-season conditioning programs and changed their diets to everything they loved as kids. Never again would they have to concentrate on football!

Those three guys just seemed to fit together with what the Cowboys already had. The Cowboys also made a mistake with Rivera that could have really hurt them, but sort of washed away when the salary cap leaped ahead.

Kosier's signing was sort of like the Packer's signing of Pickett; and Davis was sort of like Woodson. The Cowboys made it work in the O-line, the Packers did on defense

[texaspackerbacker]

There's not an awful lot to quarrel with in any of those posts.

There's really two separate questions being intermingled here: One is the picture a year or two or whatever down the road when Clifton and Tauscher get replaced; The other is the best combination right now. I'll stick with the first question.

One thing you sorta left out of your excellent analysis, Patler, is that the Cowboys line is BIG--much bigger than the Packers, and bigger than almost all others in the NFL. Consequently, for better or worse, they don't do a lot of pulling or other finesse stuff. Also, big as they are, they don't do substantially better--maybe not as well--in pass blocking.

It's kind of a value judgment a team has to make as to what kind of an O Line it wants to have--it's practically impossilbe to have everything in even one or two players, much less across the line.

I have said, also, that playing together is the key to success. We're just getting to that point with the Packers, and as you said, we're getting close to the time the tackles will need to be replaced.

Somebody said a "realist" would draft an OT. Yes, but not likely #1. There would seem to be a pretty high rate of failure of supposedly top quality O Tackles coming out of college. While Giacomini and Sitton are worthy of consideration, I think Colledge has finally found his niche at Guard, and should be left alone.

I've said, and still say even after the loss, the current O Line is NOT under-performing based on their talent level and based on comparison to all other O Lines--not just great ones like the Cowboys. They are what they are: relatively small and mobile, but not very physical ZBS type O Linemen. I seriously doubt, regardless of what some in this forum might want, that Thompson/McCarthy will junk that whole concept and bring in a Cowboy size less mobile/more physical bunch. Would it help to acquire--draft or free agency--ONE huge stud lineman as the future Left Tackle? Maybe. I don't think that would require much departure from the ZBS or other current strategies. I very much doubt, though, that Thompson/McCarthy go that route.

And it's hard to argue with whatever they do, given the success the team has had with generally average quality guys in the O Line.

[Patler]

Tex
I don't think we disagree at all. What I was pointing out is that with O-linemen sometimes you have to have patience. The Cowboys decided to go big, real big, and got together an experienced group that seemed to work together. They are all 30 years old and older. None was a real star 3 years ago.

I haven't given up on any of the current group, including Moll. I just wish he wasn't starting right now. Rivera and Wahle took three and four years before they were consistent contributers. Both were bad when they became starters, and neither started as a rookie. Both turned out just fine.

Between Barbre, Colledge, Spitz, Sitton and Moll I have hopes that in 2-3 years the Packers will have two very, very good starters, and maybe more if one moves. I wouldn't be surprised to see Barbre get some exposure at LT to see if he can play it. He is amazingly athletic for his size. Sitton could "grow" into a right tackle, and the coaches have always said Moll is more of a tackle than a guard. It is conceivable 3 or 4 very good starters could develop out of that group.

[texaspackerbacker]

I agree, and I think that's what Thompson/McCarthy have in mind too--maybe draft a mid and a late rounder each of the next couple of years to add to the mix in hope of putting a good long term O Line together.

[mraynrand]

Kosier's signing was sort of like the Packer's signing of Pickett; and Davis was sort of like Woodson. The Cowboys made it work in the O-line, the Packers did on defense

That's an interesting observation. The Packers could have (and still can) make moves for O-linemen, but they have to fit the 'system.' Could the difficulty be in finding guy(s) that fit in, given the Packers are one of few teams running their system?

[mraynrand]

I agree, and I think that's what Thompson/McCarthy have in mind too--maybe draft a mid and a late rounder each of the next couple of years to add to the mix in hope of putting a good long term O Line together.

That might not be fast enough. Patler suggest three starters, and it's certainly in the realm of possibilities, but that still leaves a gap or two, depending on how soon Wells, Clifton, and Tauscher disintigrate.

[pbmax]

Ratliff had one sack and 3 tackles/assists and I remember him once beyond the sack. I certainly could have missed him and I don't have tape, but he wasn't the front seven player that worried me. I was worried about Ware. His constant pressure kept Rodgers from rolling in the favored right direction. And when he did roll right, he had to retreat deep and Tauscher could not stay locked up with Ware.

One thing about the passing that rings true with inside pressure though. Rodgers did not step up into the pocket much at all. I thought this was due to LB pressure from the inside, but in truth I didn't see much of this action on TV. It could have been Ratliff.

It's possible that the line's failings were just bad enough to unsettle a rookie starter. Facing a 3-4 and a good defense to boot, he was not making decisions as quickly as he had in other games. The O Line was a part of that.

And I think Spitz at center has given us a better run game. It seems more consistent than early last year. The hammy has kept Grant from breaking runs into longer ones. One measure might be the improved play of Jackson, but how much of that is his offseason versus Spitz is debatable. It could be the Derek Loville effect. Team just don't care about Jackson and don't focus on him.


Harlan,

You can defend this OL all you want (because you don't want Wells back starting), but the fact is: Jay Ratliff was the most impressive front seven player for Dallas last night, and he primarily went up against Spitz and Moll.

[RashanGary]

If I had to grade the lineman right now using the 3 games, I'd say:

Colledge (I've been impressed with him for the first time. He's a lot stronger and more consistent. He can really do a lot of things well with the movement as well as being OK at traditional power blocking)

Power run game - C
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Spitz (would grade him slightly lower if he were at RG because I don't think he's quite as strong as you like but mroe than strong enough at center and much stronger than Wells)

Power run game - B
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B


Moll (Last year when he filled in for Tausch I thought he did better. He's a true RT IMO)

Power run game - D+
Finesse run game - C
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliability - D+
Overall - D+

Clifton

Power run game - C+
Finesse run game - D+
Pass protection - A
Consistency/Reliablity - B+
Overall - B


Tauscher

Power run game - B+
Finess run game - B
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Wells

If Wells comes back I think he'll be a C+ across the board and a B+ in consistency so he's a nice step up from having Moll in there for this year. I don't see him as a long term solution, but right now he's one of our best 5 because of his experience.


Overall I think they're doing OK but they are the weak link of the offense right now becuase they can't be counted on to run the ball with Clifton being a weak run blocker on the left and Moll being a weak run blocker on the right. It equals two weak sides. Because the can't be counted on to run, Rodgers sees a lot of pass heavy defenses and pressures that make it tough to beat a great team like Dallas.



Next season with Sitton I could see them being a stronger run team. Spitz a good, strong center and still getting better. Colledge is now strong enough, consistant and still getting better. I think Sitton will be a good, strong RG and Tausch is a good, strong RT. Even if Tauch leaves I think Moll is a much better RT and while he is a weak guard, I think he's a good, strong RT. NO matter what, I think next years OL is going ot be much more solid in the run game. When teams, like Dallas, want to bring heavy pass rush or play cover 2, we should be able to take advantage of the weak fronts with a more consistent run game.

I do see LT as a logn term problem right now. LT is a very hard position to fill and I do not believe Colledge is a LT. He's a young guy that people were expecting to have man power before he was ready. Now he's ready adn he's a true, well rounded LG that can do a lot of things well. Barbre seems to get set quicker and have a little more length. Maybe he becomes the next LT, but I'm not counting on that. The bottom line is that it would be nice to bring in a uber talented heir apparent to groom for a year or two behind Clifton. Other than that, I like the direction of this line. I think the offense will start peaking next season as a well rounded, dominate offense much like Dallas this year.

[The Gunshooter]

He got beat once, badly, for a sack. Can you please provide other details?

I saw Moll get bitch slapped and thrown aside like a sack of shit. How is he going to ever be more than a weakling?

How about 84 yards rushing and having to max protect because he can't block his way out of paper bag?

[HarveyWallbangers]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080922/PKR01/80922196/1058


Wells’ return would mean that Spitz would move back to right guard, relegating the inconsistent Moll to a backup role again.

Moll struggled with Cowboys nose tackle Jay Ratliff, who had one of the five sacks plus a tackle for a loss. Ratliff beat Moll for a sack of Aaron Rodgers in the third quarter. That came after Ratliff beat him with a power move and had Rodgers in his grasp in the first quarter, but Rodgers managed to slip away. Ratliff got away from Moll twice more in the fourth quarter – once when he got a free shot on Rodgers, whose feet were being held by another defensive player, and again on the second-to-last play of the game when Ratliff got his hands on Rodgers, who managed to escape.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Wells is the obvious and likely player to return as starter.

But I think we should all be pleased and hopeful if Sitton comes off the bench instead of Wells. It means a chance to step forward instead of sideways. (I suppose backwards is always an option too. :D )

[mraynrand]

If I had to grade the lineman right now using the 3 games, I'd say:

Colledge (I've been impressed with him for the first time. He's a lot stronger and more consistent. He can really do a lot of things well with the movement as well as being OK at traditional power blocking)

Power run game - C
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Spitz (would grade him slightly lower if he were at RG because I don't think he's quite as strong as you like but mroe than strong enough at center and much stronger than Wells)

Power run game - B
Finesse run game - B
Pass protection - B
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B


Moll (Last year when he filled in for Tausch I thought he did better. He's a true RT IMO)

Power run game - D+
Finesse run game - C
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliability - D+
Overall - D+

Clifton

Power run game - C+
Finesse run game - D+
Pass protection - A
Consistency/Reliablity - B+
Overall - B


Tauscher

Power run game - B+
Finess run game - B
Pass protection - D+
Consistency/Reliablity - B
Overall - B-


Wells

If Wells comes back I think he'll be a C+ across the board and a B+ in consistency so he's a nice step up from having Moll in there for this year. I don't see him as a long term solution, but right now he's one of our best 5 because of his experience.


Overall I think they're doing OK but they are the weak link of the offense right now becuase they can't be counted on to run the ball with Clifton being a weak run blocker on the left and Moll being a weak run blocker on the right. It equals two weak sides. Because the can't be counted on to run, Rodgers sees a lot of pass heavy defenses and pressures that make it tough to beat a great team like Dallas.



Next season with Sitton I could see them being a stronger run team. Spitz a good, strong center and still getting better. Colledge is now strong enough, consistant and still getting better. I think Sitton will be a good, strong RG and Tausch is a good, strong RT. Even if Tauch leaves I think Moll is a much better RT and while he is a weak guard, I think he's a good, strong RT. NO matter what, I think next years OL is going ot be much more solid in the run game. When teams, like Dallas, want to bring heavy pass rush or play cover 2, we should be able to take advantage of the weak fronts with a more consistent run game.

I do see LT as a logn term problem right now. LT is a very hard position to fill and I do not believe Colledge is a LT. He's a young guy that people were expecting to have man power before he was ready. Now he's ready adn he's a true, well rounded LG that can do a lot of things well. Barbre seems to get set quicker and have a little more length. Maybe he becomes the next LT, but I'm not counting on that. The bottom line is that it would be nice to bring in a uber talented heir apparent to groom for a year or two behind Clifton. Other than that, I like the direction of this line. I think the offense will start peaking next season as a well rounded, dominate offense much like Dallas this year.


I agree with everything you wrote, except that you got it totally wrong with Moll in the power run game. How you could give him a D+ is beyond me. It was clearly a flat D grade. Outrageous giving him the plus. You've really lost your ability to be objective.

[Harlan Huckleby]

people are always looking or a scape goat. I really doubt that Moll was much worse than, say, Tauscher, in the game.

In the summer of 2007, Atari Bigby was the scapegoat for the struggling secondary, then he made the team - as a starter - and before long he was the local hero.

[RashanGary]

people are always looking or a scape goat. I really doubt that Moll was much worse than, say, Tauscher, in the game.

In the summer of 2007, Atari Bigby was the scapegoat for the struggling secondary, then he made the team - as a starter - and before long he was the local hero.

I like Moll more at tackle. The times I've watched him he seems to do a good job securing the edge and has the power to handle 260-300 lb Dlineman. He gets in trouble inside where he has to take on 300+ pound mamouths. He's servicable at guard, but I think he's going to end up being our starter at RT and I think people are going to be suprised at how well he plays out there. When Tausch went down Moll stepped in and nobody even noticed he was there. He played damn well at tackle and has only gotten stronger and better.

[RashanGary]

Patler has brought up an interesting point. Olineman do seem to take time to really get NFL strong or NFL savvy or whatever it is that lineman need.


Colledge, for example, was very inconsistant and weak. Now he's playing good football. Everyone likes to rate a team on who is brought in, in the offseason but really it should be rated on the number core guys taking steps from young and inexperienced to their prime.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Patler has brought up an interesting point. Olineman do seem to take time to really get NFL strong or NFL savvy or whatever it is that lineman need..

I agree, it takes 3 years to judge a lineman. A lot of them look good as rookies and fizzle, no need to run through the many recent examples. And then there are the third year bloomers.

I like the idea of spending money on free agents on the line. Try the draft first, but patch if needed.

[RashanGary]

Lineman from free agency might work. Some teams might get impatient with a late bloomer and then you can scoop in and take him off their hands.