Backup QB: TT's bluff gets called.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Arod went down with the game in a difficult spot, but still winnable.

The first pass that master Flynn throws is a short slant that sailed a full 3 yards behind the receiver. Obviously nerves from a player throwing his first NFL pass.

The team brings ARod back into the game, even though he really shouldn't be out there.

The idea that the team will "be OK" with unimpressive rookies as backups is fiction. TT's strategy of only adding players of good value to the squad blew up in his face this time. And taking two QBs in the same draft was a dubious move. TT should have been in hot pursuit of a veteran backup as soon as Favre retired.

[Pacopete4]

Arod went down with the game in a difficult spot, but still winnable.

The first pass that master Flynn throws is a short slant that sailed a full 3 yards behind the receiver. Obviously nerves from a player throwing his first NFL pass.

The team brings ARod back into the game, even though he really shouldn't be out there.

The idea that the team will "be OK" with unimpressive rookies as backups is fiction. TT's strategy of only adding players of good value to the squad blew up in his face this time. And taking two QBs in the same draft was a dubious move. Should have been in hot pursuit of a veteran backup as soon as Favre retired.


I think its to early to say it was called... our backup hasnt even really had a chance to prove anyone wrong/right yet.. unless ur going to count his one possesion today

[Harlan Huckleby]

the coaches throwing Rodgers back out there with a limp throwing arm was an admission of failure. They don't trust Flynn to do the job he is penciled-in to do. That's on the GM.

[Pacopete4]

the coaches throwing Rodgers back out there with a limp throwing arm was an admission of failure. They don't trust Flynn to do the job he is penciled-in to do. That's on the GM.



that makes zero sense... the starting QB wanted to go out and try to get us a lead so that makes the backup a failure?.... pure stupidity

[Scott Campbell]

I agree. Joey Harrington gives us a chance. Flynn didn't.

Though I'm not sure Peyton Manning could have pulled it out the way our running game and OL were playing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If my mammary serves me, the PAckers were actually ahead by 1 point when Rodgers got hurt.

Tampa was kickin butt, that's true, the Packers were fortunate to collect those Griese balls. But this is a situation custom-made for a backup - get in there and move the sticks a couple times.

[Pacopete4]

he threw one pass.... and ur judging him


if anything bitch at MM for not allowing the kid to do his job and get first downs, instead he was a pussy and ran the ball even on 3rd down thinking our D could hold a one point lead

[Harlan Huckleby]

he threw one pass.... and ur judging him

the coaches judged him, they got him the hell out of there.

[Pacopete4]

he threw one pass.... and ur judging him

the coaches judged him, they got him the hell out of there.



judged him on one slant pass? and then he was taken out because Arod wanted to play and what did he do? oh, missed a wide open DD and got picked...


the backups may suck, which is the most likely thing... but u CANNOT say they do because we have not seen them get a chance in games... therefore, u cannot start telling me TT failed there...

[Scott Campbell]

therefore, u cannot start telling me TT failed there...




Too late. He already did.

[Joemailman]

Flynn was put in a tough situation. Before he got to run a play, a penalty was called. Packers couldn't run the ball and the TB defense knew it. If he has to start a game, he'll be better prepared than he was in that situation. If the Pack can't find a RB who can do better than 15 carries for 20 yards, it might not matter who the QB is.

[Pacopete4]

Flynn was put in a tough situation. Before he got to run a play, a penalty was called. Packers couldn't run the ball and the TB defense knew it. If he has to start a game, he'll be better prepared than he was in that situation. If the Pack can't find a RB who can do better than 15 carries for 20 yards, it might not matter who the QB is.



we could try to find a QB that can still win games with a RB that gets 20 yrds on 15 carries... i think i might know where one is playing

[cpk1994]

If my mammary serves me, the PAckers were actually ahead by 1 point when Rodgers got hurt.

Tampa was kickin butt, that's true, the Packers were fortunate to collect those Griese balls. But this is a situation custom-made for a backup - get in there and move the sticks a couple times.You think with your breasts? :shock:

[Harlan Huckleby]

the backups may suck, which is the most likely thing... but u CANNOT say they do because we have not seen them get a chance in games... therefore, u cannot start telling me TT failed there...

The idea of having TWO rookie QBs on the roster is problematic. You can't count on a rookie to be a backup.

Today is only one incident, but it clearly demonstrated what a fix the Packers are in when Rodgers gets an owy. My opinion stands regardless of today's drama.

[Scott Campbell]

If he has to start a game, he'll be better prepared than he was in that situation.



Backups need to be prepared. 2 rookie QB's is risky.

[cpk1994]

the backups may suck, which is the most likely thing... but u CANNOT say they do because we have not seen them get a chance in games... therefore, u cannot start telling me TT failed there...

The idea of having TWO rookie QBs on the roster is problematic. You can't count on a rookie to be a backup.
Today is only one incident, but it clearly demonstrated what a fix the Packers are in when Rodgers gets an owy. My opinion stands regardless of today's drama.Tom Brady kindly disagrees.

[Harlan Huckleby]

not sure what you are getting at - was Brady a backup as a rookie?

Obviously there are exceptions, hell, Manning was effective as a starter as a rookie. I'm just talking about percentages.

Matt Cassel is not a rookie, if that is what you are getting at.

[MadtownPacker]

Flynn was put in a tough situation. Before he got to run a play, a penalty was called. Packers couldn't run the ball and the TB defense knew it. If he has to start a game, he'll be better prepared than he was in that situation. If the Pack can't find a RB who can do better than 15 carries for 20 yards, it might not matter who the QB is.Great post, I agree with the whole damn thing. The guy was dropped into a pressure packed situation with the game on the line. At least give him a few pass attempts before calling him garbage.

[MadtownPacker]

Tom Brady kindly disagrees.He was in his 2nd year.

[Tarlam!]

We were very conservative with our play calling when A-Rod was playing. When Flynn got in, when looked like a Pop Warner team.

We can't run. We can't block. We can't tackle.

Right now, we have about 11 decent players spread on three phases, not injured. This season is vorbei.

[mmmdk]

We were very conservative with our play calling when A-Rod was playing. When Flynn got in, when looked like a Pop Warner team.

We can't run. We can't block. We can't tackle.

Right now, we have about 11 decent players spread on three phases, not injured. This season is vorbei.

The horror OL, the horror OL. TT has been spoiled with Hasselbeck then BF; I have a feeling TT thinks he can patch an O-line on the fly and let your QB bail'em out. Rodgers is, at least, Hasselbeck good. I'm with LeRoy Butler; we've got a QB in Rodgers - so help him out TT. Our is currently OL is bottom 5 in the NFL. Nuff said. :evil:

[packerbacker1234]

My biggest concern is this:

Say next week Rodgers can't go (looks all but certain he wont. You don't just go out an play a week later after a dislocated shoulder on the throwing arm. It needs rest, and lots of it. Just hoping that is the worst of it.) and Flynn gets the nod.

What happens in packer nation, say, if Flynn goes out, gets us a win, and looks damn impressive. Is there suddenly a QB competition? Management wont let that happen, but you h ave to wonder - do the packers seriously have to remain commited to AR if some comes in when he is hurt and can get the job done?


Still, this is future guessing. Just curious how we would react. It doesn't change the fact that, especially this last game, we would of had a better chance the one series without Rodgers if the qb in had experience at an NFL level. Thats almost undeniable.

[sheepshead]

Dear Mr. Thompson,

Please sign a veteran back-up quarterback.

Signed,

Greg Jennings

[MOBB DEEP]

Dear Mr. Thompson,

Please sign a veteran back-up quarterback.

Signed,

Greg Jennings



he he

[Harlan Huckleby]

What happens in packer nation, say, if Flynn goes out, gets us a win, and looks damn impressive. Is there suddenly a QB competition?

That is a problem like winning the lottery and not knowing what to do with the money.

I wasn't being crtitical of Flynn because of a couple plays. It is obvious that the coaches don't really trust him, or they would have not tried to go with Rodgers after he strained his shoulder. The GM didn't give the coaches a realistic backup at QB. Its a wing and a prayer strategy.

[sharpe1027]

That is a problem like winning the lottery and not knowing what to do with the money.

I wasn't being crtitical of Flynn because of a couple plays. It is obvious that the coaches don't really trust him, or they would have not tried to go with Rodgers after he strained his shoulder. The GM didn't give the coaches a realistic backup at QB. Its a wing and a prayer strategy.

Personally, I think your jumping to conclusions. Rodgers was throwing on the sidelines before he came back in. It seems likely that that Rodgers said he was able to throw and they believed him. I mean, he throw a 30Yd strike to Jennings AFTER he was hurt. Why wouldn't they think he might be good to go. How many times did Favre limp off the sidelines only to be let back in the game back when we the likes of Hasselback as a backup? Obviously it must have been because they didn't have faith in their backups....the same backups who looked great in the preseason and ended up as starters?

Maybe your theory is correct, but it doesn't seem as obvious as you seem to think.

[Scott Campbell]

That is a problem like winning the lottery and not knowing what to do with the money.

I wasn't being crtitical of Flynn because of a couple plays. It is obvious that the coaches don't really trust him, or they would have not tried to go with Rodgers after he strained his shoulder. The GM didn't give the coaches a realistic backup at QB. Its a wing and a prayer strategy.

Personally, I think your jumping to conclusions. Rodgers was throwing on the sidelines before he came back in. It seems likely that that Rodgers said he was able to throw and they believed him. I mean, he throw a 30Yd strike to Jennings AFTER he was hurt. Why wouldn't they think he might be good to go. How many times did Favre limp off the sidelines only to be let back in the game back when we the likes of Hasselback as a backup? Obviously it must have been because they didn't have faith in their backups....the same backups who looked great in the preseason and ended up as starters?

Maybe your theory is correct, but it doesn't seem as obvious as you seem to think.


That's plausible too.

[Dabaddestbear]

the coaches throwing Rodgers back out there with a limp throwing arm was an admission of failure. They don't trust Flynn to do the job he is penciled-in to do. That's on the GM.
I was watching that game and thinking the same thing. I mean I always want you guys to lose but dammit, at least make sense of it. Why would you put your injured franchise QB back out there is beyond me when you have drafted two QB's (one in the 2nd round) to jump in just in case something like this happened. But as a Bear fan I just smiled and thought of how happy Brett was when he saw this game on his tivo when he got home...lol.
Boy it sucks to not have the Iron Man back there doesnt it?
:twisted:

Oh boy agreeing with a Packer fan...YUCK! :roll:

[MOBB DEEP]

the coaches throwing Rodgers back out there with a limp throwing arm was an admission of failure. They don't trust Flynn to do the job he is penciled-in to do. That's on the GM.
I was watching that game and thinking the same thing. I mean I always want you guys to lose but dammit, at least make sense of it. Why would you put your injured franchise QB back out there is beyond me when you have drafted two QB's (one in the 2nd round) to jump in just in case something like this happened. But as a Bear fan I just smiled and thought of how happy Brett was when he saw this game on his tivo when he got home...lol.
Boy it sucks to not have the Iron Man back there doesnt it?
:twisted:

Oh boy agreeing with a Packer fan...YUCK! :roll:

yes; but some of us are happy brett has a fresh start. plus we STILL hav a better QB than yal flatlanders...

[Dabaddestbear]

the coaches throwing Rodgers back out there with a limp throwing arm was an admission of failure. They don't trust Flynn to do the job he is penciled-in to do. That's on the GM.
I was watching that game and thinking the same thing. I mean I always want you guys to lose but dammit, at least make sense of it. Why would you put your injured franchise QB back out there is beyond me when you have drafted two QB's (one in the 2nd round) to jump in just in case something like this happened. But as a Bear fan I just smiled and thought of how happy Brett was when he saw this game on his tivo when he got home...lol.
Boy it sucks to not have the Iron Man back there doesnt it?
:twisted:

Oh boy agreeing with a Packer fan...YUCK! :roll:

yes; but some of us are happy brett has a fresh start. plus we STILL hav a better QB than yal flatlanders...
Uh, you guys have a injured QB. Who majority of his yards are always to the same WR. We have a QB that is still standing and threw 3 TD's after playing the stingiest defense in the NFL. I dont think Rodgers will ever complete an entire season without getting hurt. Say hello to your very own Bonafide Packers version of Rex Grossman! :wink:

[cpk1994]

the coaches throwing Rodgers back out there with a limp throwing arm was an admission of failure. They don't trust Flynn to do the job he is penciled-in to do. That's on the GM.
I was watching that game and thinking the same thing. I mean I always want you guys to lose but dammit, at least make sense of it. Why would you put your injured franchise QB back out there is beyond me when you have drafted two QB's (one in the 2nd round) to jump in just in case something like this happened. But as a Bear fan I just smiled and thought of how happy Brett was when he saw this game on his tivo when he got home...lol.
Boy it sucks to not have the Iron Man back there doesnt it?
:twisted:

Oh boy agreeing with a Packer fan...YUCK! :roll:

yes; but some of us are happy brett has a fresh start. plus we STILL hav a better QB than yal flatlanders...
Uh, you guys have a injured QB. Who majority of his yards are always to the same WR. We have a QB that is still standing and threw 3 TD's after playing the stingiest defense in the NFL. I dont think Rodgers will ever complete an entire season without getting hurt. Say hello to your very own Bonafide Packers version of Rex Grossman! :wink:You must have been in a coma last week when the cowboys hung 41 on that "stingy" D.

[rbaloha1]

Matt Flynn and Brian Brohm are unready to play at a acceptable level.

TT's "gamble" is too risky. Just sign a veteran qb!

[MadtownPacker]

Honestly with all the injuries on the team I am down with riding the season out with what is on the roster.

[The Leaper]

What happens in packer nation, say, if Flynn goes out, gets us a win, and looks damn impressive.

LOL

Yeah right...and Clay Aiken isn't gay.

[The Leaper]

TT should have been in hot pursuit of a veteran backup as soon as Favre retired.

I think he was...but most decent veterans are interested in STARTING, not being a backup. At least they want a CHANCE to win the job as a starter, but clearly Green Bay was giving Rodgers the job.

Green Bay was stupid to immediately declare Rodgers the starter after Favre's retirement. One of the dumbest moves I have ever seen. It reduced Thompson's ability to attract a veteran QB to the roster.

Face it...when Thompson and McCarthy decided that Favre was finished in Green Bay, their hands were tied and it was Rodgers or bust. If we finish 4-12 as a result, it is on them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Packers were up by 1 point late in the game, 3rd and 13, Flynn at the helm.

They ran into the line, punted the ball away, and Tampa came back with a winning field goal.

IF the coaches don't trust Flynn to throw a pass in a critical situation, he is not up to the job of backup QB.

I am not criticizing Flynn for not being ready to play, or giving up on him. But the whole point of a backup QB is that they can come into a situation like at Tampa and be competent. There is no such thing as a developmental backup QB, they don't have to be good, but they have to be competent NOW.

TT is directly responsibile for the loss at Tampa, he didn't do his job and got caught.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Green Bay was stupid to immediately declare Rodgers the starter after Favre's retirement. One of the dumbest moves I have ever seen. It reduced Thompson's ability to attract a veteran QB to the roster.

I see your point, maybe there would be some advantage in pretending that a starting job was available. But 80% of NFL teams have clear starters at QB, and they generally are able to attract backups. I think your point is valid but minor.

[Pacopete4]

I know craig nall isnt the best, but at least he knows our system and a lot of our players.. im surprised we havent brought him back

[Carolina_Packer]

I know craig nall isnt the best, but at least he knows our system and a lot of our players.. im surprised we havent brought him back

I think what complicated the situation is that Flynn performed to a level nobody expected, giving the braintrust hope that he was talented enough to stick and contribute in time. Problem is, he and Brohm are nowhere near ready to take the reigns and be a significant factor now. It's one thing if you have a great running game and you can manage the offense, but if you have to water down the passing game when you're already struggling to run the ball, what bullet do you have left in the chamber?

If they had just drafted Brohm and signed a sensible free agent backup, then there would be nobody to try and stash on the practice squad. But, then they lose out on a potential talent like Brohm. It was just a risky move, like TT was saying, "we are willing to take a chance that Rodgers gets hurt and that our offense will struggle and therefore the team", so that we can have these guys for the longer term." The problem with that thinking is, they were 14-4 including playoffs last year, so why risk anything? Of course now that the injury bug has come, things may be in doubt anyway, BUT, it's not like TT knew that when he was making the calculated risk at the QB postion.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I know craig nall isnt the best, but at least he knows our system and a lot of our players.. im surprised we havent brought him back

1. There is a reason he isn't in the league.

2. He hardly knows our system. He left when MM took over. He came back as backup in December of 07. Unless you think he suddenly learned our sysem in a month. :oops:

[mraynrand]

I know craig nall isnt the best, but at least he knows our system and a lot of our players.. im surprised we havent brought him back

http://www.soberfree.com/images/vomit06.jpg

[sharpe1027]

The Packers were up by 1 point late in the game, 3rd and 13, Flynn at the helm.

They ran into the line, punted the ball away, and Tampa came back with a winning field goal.

IF the coaches don't trust Flynn to throw a pass in a critical situation, he is not up to the job of backup QB.

I am not criticizing Flynn for not being ready to play, or giving up on him. But the whole point of a backup QB is that they can come into a situation like at Tampa and be competent. There is no such thing as a developmental backup QB, they don't have to be good, but they have to be competent NOW.

TT is directly responsibile for the loss at Tampa, he didn't do his job and got caught.

I can't recall the specific game, but I'm almost positive that I've seen MM make almost the same call with Favre at the helm. By your logic that must mean they didn't trust Favre...that might have been true.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't think so. That was a critical first down to try and achieve. Third and thirteen is not impossible. The QB has to understand the situation: throw the ball away if nothing open. Too much to gain to just punt the ball away.

With any competent QB, you don't give the ball away with a 1 point game and time running out. That was not a conservative call by MM, it was foolish - unless he thought the QB was hopeless.

[sharpe1027]

I don't think so. That was a critical first down to try and achieve. Third and thirteen is not impossible. The QB has to understand the situation: throw the ball away if nothing open. Too much to gain to just punt the ball away.

With any competent QB, you don't give the ball away with a 1 point game and time running out. That was not a conservative call by MM, it was foolish - unless he thought the QB was hopeless.

There was 9:40 left in the game and they were ahead. It wasn't exactly a desperation point where time was "running out." I don't necessarily like the call, but I've seen much more conservative calls than that. I really can't agree that single play justifies a conclusion that they think the QB is "hopeless."

I'm not saying that they have a lot of confidence in the kid, but might it be that you are looking for things to support your conclusion rather than trying to objectively look at the facts? Obviously, I can't say that's what is going on for sure, but it seems to fit... :wink:

[bobblehead]

I don't think so. That was a critical first down to try and achieve. Third and thirteen is not impossible. The QB has to understand the situation: throw the ball away if nothing open. Too much to gain to just punt the ball away.

With any competent QB, you don't give the ball away with a 1 point game and time running out. That was not a conservative call by MM, it was foolish - unless he thought the QB was hopeless.

There was 9:40 left in the game and they were ahead. It wasn't exactly a desperation point where time was "running out." I don't necessarily like the call, but I've seen much more conservative calls than that. I really can't agree that single play justifies a conclusion that they think the QB is "hopeless."

I'm not saying that they have a lot of confidence in the kid, but might it be that you are looking for things to support your conclusion rather than trying to objectively look at the facts? Obviously, I can't say that's what is going on for sure, but it seems to fit... :wink:

I don't know what to think...after all mike holmgren trusted TJ Rubly enough to let him call an audible late in a game.....

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't necessarily like the call, but I've seen much more conservative calls than that. I really can't agree that single play justifies a conclusion that they think the QB is "hopeless."

There were several indications of Flynn's lack of experience, and the coach's lack of confidence in him, starting with his wild first pass.

Again, I'm not blaming Flynn, he's simply not ready, but people making excuses for this situation are whistling past the graveyard. TT didn't cover his bases at QB. ("bases" being another word for "ass");

[sharpe1027]

There were several indications of Flynn's lack of experience, and the coach's lack of confidence in him, starting with his wild first pass.

Again, I'm not blaming Flynn, he's simply not ready, but people making excuses for this situation are whistling past the graveyard. TT didn't cover his bases at QB. ("bases" being another word for "ass");

A rookie, no strike that, a backup that's not "ready" to start in the NFL...shocking. :shock:

I said MM calling one run play doesn't prove they think Flynn is hopeless. That's a little different than making excuses for this situation or saying he's "ready," whatever you think "ready" means. Judging him on his first NFL pass is poor analysis of how he will do, just ask Favre. Admittedly, it didn't give me much confidence, but I'm not ready to give up on him and assume that he can't step in right now.

Is he going to struggle if he has to play? It is likely. Personally, I don't expect our backup to carry the team.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I said MM calling one run play doesn't prove they think Flynn is hopeless.

Let me spell it for you again: NOBODY SAID FLYNN IS HOPELESS. Your straw man arguments grow tiresome.

And there are several factors indicating that Flynn in unready and the coaches know it, not just the one run when a first down pass was critical.

Obviously some here want to believe that the team is fine with Flynn, and they are going to dismiss any evidence to the contrary. Fine, you are entitled to be a faith-based fan. But TT got burned for being a faith-based GM, and that's no good.

[sharpe1027]

I said MM calling one run play doesn't prove they think Flynn is hopeless.

Let me spell it for you again: NOBODY SAID FLYNN IS HOPELESS. Your straw man arguments grow tiresome.

And there are several factors indicating that Flynn in unready and the coaches know it, not just the one run when a first down pass was critical.

Obviously some here want to believe that the team is fine with Flynn, and they are going to dismiss any evidence to the contrary. Fine, you are entitled to be a faith-based fan. But TT got burned for being a faith-based GM, and that's no good.

1st, read what you quoted from me...to paraphrase it says MM and staff think Flynn is hopeless. That statement was directly taken from you.

2nd, I never said the team is "fine" with Flynn.

Let me spell it out for you again: You jumped to conclusions about MM having no confidence in Flynn and thinking that he was hopeless. I disagree that one play call and one errant pass proves your point.

Now you are jumping to conclusions about what I think of our chances with Flynn starting. Read my posts...I clearly indicated otherwise.

You are the one making straw man arguments by mistating my position. Point to a single place that I mistated your position before you dismiss my arugments as straw man arugments.

[Harlan Huckleby]

1st, read what you quoted from me...to paraphrase it says MM and staff think Flynn is hopeless. That statement was directly taken from you.

Flynn was hopeless to serve as a backup in that particular game, as the coaches obviously agreed: he's not ready yet. You took that out of context, stated it as a general condemnation.


You jumped to conclusions about MM having no confidence in Flynn and thinking that he was hopeless. I disagree that one play call and one errant pass proves your point.

Now you are ingoring the most damning evidence: they put Rodgers back in the game when he was injured. And it wasn't just an errant pass, it was a bizarrely wild throw indicating Flynn's head and nerves were not ready to play.

The primary job of a backup QB is to step-in to a bad situation and be calm and competent. Its not a developmental job, no do-overs. Obviously Flynn can't do the job.

I guess I don't understand your position. Is it that Flynn might be able to do the job of backup QB someday if we are patient? I reject that thinking.

I accept that you watched went on in that game, and thought the coaches were cool with Flynn as a backup QB. I think you are nuts, that's where we disagree. :lol:

[MadtownPacker]

Flynn should play in this game no way Rodgers is better yet. Besides, this way we get to see what he gots. The shitty situation and plays he got in Tampa dont mean nothing.

And if he sucks, put in Brohm at halftime. Why the hell not? Injuries are mounting weekly and if some #2 guys dont step up the season is jacked. This is a chance to find out who can play and play now.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ya, I agree, as that great Field General, Donald Rumsfeld said, "you go to war with the army you have, not the one you wish you had."

I'm mad that TT went into the season with a 7th round draftee as the backup, but now the best option is to give him some playing time and hope he grows into the job.

[sharpe1027]

1st, read what you quoted from me...to paraphrase it says MM and staff think Flynn is hopeless. That statement was directly taken from you.

Flynn was hopeless to serve as a backup in that particular game, as the coaches obviously agreed: he's not ready yet. You took that out of context, stated it as a general condemnation.

You never said "that particular" game, and I never said "hopeless forever." I meant it in the context of what you said...your conclusions of MM's thoughts about Flynn were not as obvious as you made them out to be. I'm never said your conclusions were wrong (I can't prove what MM thinks anymore than you can), just that you overstated your position.




You jumped to conclusions about MM having no confidence in Flynn and thinking that he was hopeless. I disagree that one play call and one errant pass proves your point.

Now you are ingoring the most damning evidence: they put Rodgers back in the game when he was injured. And it wasn't just an errant pass, it was a bizarrely wild throw indicating Flynn's head and nerves were not ready to play.

This was already addressed and since you still have not responded to my post on this subject, I figure I have a valid point.



The primary job of a backup QB is to step-in to a bad situation and be calm and competent. Its not a developmental job, no do-overs. Obviously Flynn can't do the job.

So you get on my case about making generalization (which I did not do) and then come back with clear-generalizations overstating any valid position you might have. Flynn can't do the job...To save from being rerprimanded for mistating your position, I suppose you intended to say "Flynn couldn't do the job in last weeks game, in the fourth quarter, ahead by one point, with 9:40 on the clock, on a third and long situation"?



I guess I don't understand your position. Is it that Flynn might be able to do the job of backup QB someday if we are patient? I reject that thinking.

I accept that you watched went on in that game, and thought the coaches were cool with Flynn as a backup QB. I think you are nuts, that's where we disagree. :lol:

My position is simple and I'll repeat it again for you: the actions of the coaches were not so out of the ordinary that the only reasonable conclusion is that they think that Flynn is hopeless/incapable.

Anything more than that is just wrong inferences and/or your incorrect conclusions about my position.

Look, I never meant to say that MM would be happy to start Flynn. But, the same play calling and putting a gimpy starter back in could have happened the exact same way last year when Rodgers was the backup to Favre. Clearly, you want your best guy in there and don't feel as confident with the second guy. That doesn't mean the backup situation is hopeless or that you should assume that the general manager is worthless (that's really what this is about isn't it?).

[texaspackerbacker]

All this panic and idiocy was predictable, I suppose.

To automatically conclude that the losers who have not been able to cut it with other teams could do better than Flynn or Brohm is just plain stupid. Thankfully, it is only forum flunkies and maybe some media dumbasses pushing that point of view, NOT Ted Thompson himself.

If Rodgers or one of the other QBs goes down for the season, yeah, then it's time to sign somebody. If Rodgers got hurt to the extent that he would be missing even 4 or 6 games, though, I would oppose going after some retread QB.

Starting a game or games with preparation, Flynn or Brohm would do fine. Coming in at the height of a bad situation like last week, NOBODY is likely to do well there--certainly nobody who is out there to be signed or, heaven forbid, traded for. And I'd bet money Thompson won't go that route.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That doesn't mean the backup situation is hopeless

pulled the strawman out again.

Flynn was hopelessly incompetent the first time he was needed, and the coaches confirmed that with their actions. This does not mean the backup situation is forever condemned to be hopeless.


or that you should assume that the general manager is worthless (that's really what this is about isn't it?).

hey, you found a new strawman. "TT is worthless."

you're a straw man generating machine, you should go into business.

[Harlan Huckleby]

To automatically conclude that the losers who have not been able to cut it with other teams could do better than Flynn or Brohm is just plain stupid.

I know you are but what am I? Thinking that a 7th round rookie could be an effective backup was just plain stupid, and we saw the fruits of that foolish decision last sunday.


Starting a game or games with preparation, Flynn or Brohm would do fine.

Based on what? Oh ya, faith & hope. How did those gents look in preseason?

[sharpe1027]

That doesn't mean the backup situation is hopeless

pulled the strawman out again.

Flynn was hopelessly incompetent the first time he was needed, and the coaches confirmed that with their actions. This does not mean the backup situation is forever condemned to be hopeless.


or that you should assume that the general manager is worthless (that's really what this is about isn't it?).

hey, you found a new strawman. "TT is worthless."

you're a straw man generating machine, you should go into business.

Congratuations, you are able to pull statements out of context while ignoring the point of the post...I guess you showed me. :lol:

I fail to see the significance of the lines you quoted to the point of my post. Maybe you can explain? Or even better, how about you just acknowledge that the playcalling wasn't so out of the ordinary that the only reasonable conclusion is that MM thought Flynn was hopeless.

Besides, you clearly stated that you think TT screwed up. We can all read between the lines, you are taking a shot at TT. :wink:

[Harlan Huckleby]

Or even better, how about you just acknowledge that the playcalling wasn't so out of the ordinary that the only reasonable conclusion is that MM thought Flynn was hopeless.

there you go again, another strawman. the play calling was not the only evidence.

All the factors combined would lead a reasonable person to conclude that MM thought Flynn was a hopeless option in the Tampa game.


We can all read between the lines, you are taking a shot at TT. :wink:

Between the lines? Just read the lines. I am critical of TT for not having a realistic backup QB on the roster.
You introduced the strawman who called TT "worthless."

[sharpe1027]

Or even better, how about you just acknowledge that the playcalling wasn't so out of the ordinary that the only reasonable conclusion is that MM thought Flynn was hopeless.

there you go again, another strawman. the play calling was not the only evidence.

All the factors combined would lead a reasonable person to conclude that MM thought Flynn was a hopeless option in the Tampa game.


We can all read between the lines, you are taking a shot at TT. :wink:

Between the lines? Just read the lines. I am critical of TT for not having a realistic backup QB on the roster.
You introduced the strawman who called TT "worthless."

Wow. You are getting really techinical. I guess I need use your exact words? This gets stupid fast when you refuse to use any context and refuse to afford any common sense intrepretation of the other poster.

My apologies for for saying worthless, but if we are going to parse words, I only said those two statements in a hypothetical sense...so techincally it was not a straw man argument because I never explictly said it was your position...

I also never said that playcalling was the "only" reason, again you refuse to apply common sense and context to what I say. I discussed each reason you presented and showed that there were other plausible reasons for those decisions. I would hope that I don't need to copy and paste the entire argument for you each time I say something.

[Gunakor]

ya, I agree, as that great Field General, Donald Rumsfeld said, "you go to war with the army you have, not the one you wish you had."

I'm mad that TT went into the season with a 7th round draftee as the backup, but now the best option is to give him some playing time and hope he grows into the job.


Actually, TT went into the season with a 2nd round draftee as a backup. A 7th round draftee beat him out for the backup job in preseason. Now you can look at that 2 ways. One, that the 2nd rounder is a bust and that the 7th rounder is doing what a 7th rounder does, or two, that the 7th rounder is actually BETTER than 7th round talent - a day 2 draft suprise.

Here's how I look at it. Flynn showed alot of poise and confidence when leading our offense during the preseason. He has been in for a grand total of THREE offensive snaps since the regular season began, and those 3 snaps he took were against a VERY formidable defense coached by perhaps the greatest defensive mind in the business. I take nothing away from those 3 snaps, good or bad. I judge a QB by the way he handles the ebb and flow of a game, making his own mental adjustments depending on what he sees and making decisions accordingly. Flynn did not have a chance to do that against Tampa. He might not be the best option against Atlanta, but 3 plays against Tampa are not enough to show me that he can't get the job done.

[Scott Campbell]

Overall I agree with Gunakor. Flynn won the backup job because he flashed a few times during the preseason. Brohm didn't, and won his roster spot purely on draft status. No coaching staff wants to be forced into playing their backup QB, so I wouldn't read too much into MM plugging Rodgers back in after he rubbed some dirt on his shoulder. I'm sure Belechik isn't to keen about starting Matt Cassel either, but they've won some games with him anyway. We can win some games with Flynn if we have to.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I judge a QB by the way he handles the ebb and flow of a game, making his own mental adjustments depending on what he sees and making decisions accordingly.

In the long run, that's how I would judge a QB. But backups are not there for the long run, their first job is the ability to step into a tough game and deliver a minimum level of poise and competence. Flynn didn't cut the mustard.


3 plays against Tampa are not enough to show me that he can't get the job done.

Agreed, he may develop, and I am in favor of giving him a shot as starter this weekend. But there are only 16 games, the backup has to be ready on day 1. Flynn wasn't, and the coaches acknowledged that with their decisions.

TT holds a large share of the blame for the loss at Tampa. If they had a QB capable of getting a first down, or at least trying to get a first down, in the situation that young master Flynn was thrust into, the team had a good chance of winning.

[Gunakor]

Agreed to a certain extent HH. I guess my point was that there's no way of knowing what adjustments Flynn may or may not have made because Rodgers came back into the game in the next series. I'm allowing for the possibility that Flynn, had he come back out for a second series, could have made an adjustment or two and moved this offense for a winning score. Likewise, I'm hoping that if he's needed in Atlanta that he'll be in for more than a series so he can get into the flow of the game. My feeling is that he'll get hot as the game goes on, even if he doesn't come out on fire right at kickoff.

[sharpe1027]

Agreed, he may develop, and I am in favor of giving him a shot as starter this weekend. But there are only 16 games, the backup has to be ready on day 1. Flynn wasn't, and the coaches acknowledged that with their decisions.

TT holds a large share of the blame for the loss at Tampa. If they had a QB capable of getting a first down, or at least trying to get a first down, in the situation that young master Flynn was thrust into, the team had a good chance of winning.

Harlan, maybe this is the better way to express what I've been saying.
Here is the 1st situation:
1) backup QB
2) just coming off the bench
3) facing a 3rd and long
4) in the 4th quarter
5) with the lead
I'm sorry, but you will see a lot of coaches run a conservative play and expect to punt. It really doesn't scream that Flynn was considered inadequate by MM. In fact, it wouldn't have been that crazy for them to run a conservative play had Rodgers still been playing.

Here is the 2nd sitaution:
1) Behind by a few points
2) Late in the 4th quarter
3) your starting QB already threw a 30 yard strike after being hurt
4) your starting QB says he's good to go after throwing passes on the sideline
5) there is no trainer saying he can't go
You will see a lot of coaches put the starter back in.

I just don't get how you can call Flynn unprepared. Maybe he wasn't prepared, but truthfully you didn't get to see enough of him to know.

Maybe you're just pissed at TT and trying to find ways to support your anger. I don't know, but I don't see how you can keep pretending that the issue is so clear-cut.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm sorry, but you will see a lot of coaches run a conservative play and expect to punt.

No. Packers had a slight lead, but Tampa had the momentum. No coach concedes a punt there if he has any confidence at all in the QB. Worst case, a ball thrown away is about the same as a run into the line; and a first down completion is huge.


You will see a lot of coaches put the starter back in..

I don't think so. Rodgers had severe pain in his throwing shoulder on that last toss.
I don't accept your description of the situation that Rodgers was good to go.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm allowing for the possibility that Flynn, had he come back out for a second series, could have made an adjustment or two and moved this offense for a winning score.

Sure, and that's not far-fetched.

I am not arguing possibilities, I'm arguing probabilities.

Its true that I am looking at this game situation with a bias - the rookie QBs didn't look good enough to serve as backups in the preseason - so I see the brief evidence of the Tampa game as confirmation of the bigger picture.

[sharpe1027]

I don't accept your description of the situation that Rodgers was good to go.

Straw man.

My description never said Rodgers was good to go. I stuck to the facts.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I suspect the trainers and coaches were concerned about putting Rodgers back in, but felt they had no choice.

There are subjective decisions you ignore, not just clear facts.

[sharpe1027]

No. Packers had a slight lead, but Tampa had the momentum. No coach concedes a punt there if he has any confidence at all in the QB. Worst case, a ball thrown away is about the same as a run into the line; and a first down completion is huge.


Staw man. I never said concede the punt, I said conservative call. Many coaches will make a conservative call with the lead in the 4th quarter when facing a 3rd and long. Mike Holgrem did it and he had one of the greatest QBs ever in Favre.

Worst case is an interception. Second worse is a sack. We had already shown that both were dangers earlier in the game before Flynn stepped on the field. MM knew this.

[sharpe1027]

I suspect the trainers and coaches were concerned about putting Rodgers back in, but felt they had no choice.

There are subjective decisions you ignore, not just clear facts.

You suspect so eh? I guess your subjective decision took into consideration that the same trainers and coaches were letting him throw on the sidelines? MM is not going to make a medical decision. If Rodgers says he can go and the trainers agree, why the hell would MM hold him out?

Your argument gets weaker by the minute. Suddenly, I need to rely heavily upon your admittedly subjective analysis of hypothetical sideline occurrences. That doesn't cut it in my book.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I never said concede the punt, I said conservative call. .

running the ball into the line on 3rd and 13 is conceding a punt. get real.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If Rodgers says he can go and the trainers agree, why the hell would MM hold him out?

There is no proving this issue. If you beleive the decision to play an injured player is a black and white medical decision, game consequences be damned, then your logic is indesputable. I say you're nuts.

Taking a broader view, MM would have held-out a QB with an injured throwing shoulder if he thought he had another option. Rodger's injury was relatively serious.

[mission]

I suspect the trainers and coaches were concerned about putting Rodgers back in, but felt they had no choice.

There are subjective decisions you ignore, not just clear facts.

Anyone that doesn't get this just has never played at a competitive level of football before. You get hurt every single game... really. Judging whether you're hurt or injured -- especially with adrenaline pumping -- is nearly impossible in the heat of the moment.

Lots of stuff hurts the next day that you just had no clue was even hit in the first place.

Either way, I coulda thrown a better slant pass than the one Flynn threw on that first play. :P

[sharpe1027]

If Rodgers says he can go and the trainers agree, why the hell would MM hold him out?

There is no proving this issue. If you beleive the decision to play an injured player is a black and white medical decision, game consequences be damned, then your logic is indesputable. I say you're nuts.

Taking a broader view, MM would have held-out a QB with an injured throwing shoulder if he thought he had another option. Rodger's injury was relatively serious.

You are the one trying to prove that Flynn was unprepared because of it, not me. My entire point is that it is not as black and white as you say. Why is it so hard for you to admit that your subjective opinion, relying on a lot of disputable issues is not the only reasonable opinion?

Taking a broader view, your conclusion is not nearly as obvious as you claim.

[sharpe1027]

I never said concede the punt, I said conservative call. .

running the ball into the line on 3rd and 13 is conceding a punt. get real.

Honestly, I agree, but it was too damn close to your straw man arguments for me to resist:

Saying TT stuck the Packers with a backup QB that was worthless is saying TT is worthless, for at least that position. get real.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Saying TT stuck the Packers with a backup QB that was worthless is saying TT is worthless, for at least that position.

agreed. now who said this? I will help you beat that guy up.