Time to scrap the ZBS

[th87]

This whole experiment with the ZBS and leaner lineman isn't working. We're out of sync on the ZBS (which purportedly takes years to master, and our master is at Boston College). The small linemen are getting thrown back in Rodgers' face, and we can't convert 3rd and 1s.

This wasn't a great idea. Remember our unstoppable running game under Sherman? That was a more power-oriented scheme, also using the athletes to pull on sweeps and such. Now, even if we want to go to that, we can't, because these linemen aren't built for that.

We could also follow the Cowboys model. They drafted and acquired huge linemen until it finally clicked. Adams and Gurode were second rounders, and Colombo and Davis were free agent cast-offs. Look at the result. Romo has 5 seconds to throw, and Barber is able to crawl through giant holes. If Rodgers had this kind of time, we'd be talking MVP.

[Zool]

I'm not inclined to disagree, but prolly should wait for the offseason. Spitz could be the C, Cliffy and Taush have proved they are good in a power gap scheme. Something just isnt right. It seems the last 3 seasons, the line starts out shit, and finishes up well. For once I'd like to see them start and finish well.

[KYPack]

The big plays in the ZBS are the backside counters in general. To make those plays go, you must be sucessful running the front side plays, We've done that very sporadically. Our guys hit mutual slumps and all misfire together. When this offense fails, it comes to a stop.

Our interior lineman are all tweeners. Big for ZBS guys, smallish for power trap players. I'd like to see us run some power trap and some zone. That might be a recipe for disaster. Shit, what do we do?

What is our bread and butter play. There is no series that we can make the defense adjust to stop us. Vanilla Dline line play will grind our offense to a halt. Other team's defense will stymie us, let alone special schemes. We must get going. Are we the class of the NFCN, or the just ahead of Detroit ?

[Carolina_Packer]

The big plays in the ZBS are the backside counters in general. To make those plays go, you must be sucessful running the front side plays, We've done that very sporadically. Our guys hit mutual slumps and all misfire together. When this offense fails, it comes to a stop.

Our interior lineman are all tweeners. Big for ZBS guys, smallish for power trap players. I'd like to see us run some power trap and some zone. That might be a recipe for disaster. Shit, what do we do?

What is our bread and butter play. There is no series that we can make the defense adjust to stop us. Vanilla Dline line play will grind our offense to a halt. Other team's defense will stymie us, let alone special schemes. We must get going. Are we the class of the NFCN, or the just ahead of Detroit ?

When we were going well last year in the running game, what was the big difference between then and right now? I've heard MM and some of you more X's and O's guys say we run a hybrid ZBS/Power scheme. We did appreciably improve when Grant was in there last year. Was it Grant's ability to see the cutback lanes (and lack thereof this year)? Was it the O-lines better overall execution to create lanes last year for Grant vs. anyone before him? I'm sure there's always a combo of blame/credit to share whether the scheme is working or not.

Hypothetically, if the O-line does it's job to create cut back lanes consistently and Grant, and Co. keep missing them and getting stoned or for little gain, then we just don't have the right personnel. If the O-line can't create cutback lanes and regularly get stoned so that the backs have nowhere to run, then it's the personnel on the O-line (or their ability to run the ZBS). My guess is that both the line and backs have to be in sync (like when things were going well in the running game last year), and that is not happening right now.

[mmmdk]

According to McCarthy; ZBS is just part of the playbook.

Fact is: the OL sucks!

Grant is up in the air...is he Sam Gado part II or potentially a solid RB? Solid is his limit.

[Packers4Ever]

This whole experiment with the ZBS and leaner lineman isn't working. We're out of sync on the ZBS (which purportedly takes years to master, and our master is at Boston College). The small linemen are getting thrown back in Rodgers' face, and we can't convert 3rd and 1s.

This wasn't a great idea. Remember our unstoppable running game under Sherman? That was a more power-oriented scheme, also using the athletes to pull on sweeps and such. Now, even if we want to go to that, we can't, because these linemen aren't built for that.

We could also follow the Cowboys model. They drafted and acquired huge linemen until it finally clicked. Adams and Gurode were second rounders, and Colombo and Davis were free agent cast-offs. Look at the result. Romo has 5 seconds to throw, and Barber is able to crawl through giant holes. If Rodgers had this kind of time, we'd be talking MVP.

And Rodgers has how long to throw ???

[The Leaper]

Remember our unstoppable running game under Sherman?

I seem to remember having a damn good all-purpose RB in Ahman Green as well. He was significantly better than anyone currently at RB on our roster.

However, I do prefer a non-ZBS running scheme at this point. Our short yardage stats in the last few years are horrifying. I have little confidence that things are going to change anytime soon though.

[pbmax]

Goose and Moose pointed out a couple of plays that the backside cut was available and Grant failed to take it. The first was right before a commercial break and they never went to the replay. It was one of our first short yardage plays, but not the successful fourth down on the first drive.

So Grant and Wells being rusty might have something to do with it.

McCarthy told McGinn they run both ZBS and hybrid stuff. This was most apparent in the second Viking game last year.

But Grant's best games (minus that Vike game) were in ZBS plays, both straight and cutback.

It will be interesting to see what McGinn and Eric say about Wells, but based on a superficial look, it would seem like Wells return and Spitz's move to RG were a disaster. But its hard to say without film. And Clifton is having trouble in pass blocking he usually doesn't have.

[bobblehead]

I'm not inclined to disagree, but prolly should wait for the offseason. Spitz could be the C, Cliffy and Taush have proved they are good in a power gap scheme. Something just isnt right. It seems the last 3 seasons, the line starts out shit, and finishes up well. For once I'd like to see them start and finish well.

You can't "practice" cutting your guys and knocking them down...you have to get your reps in during the games. That is why we start out slow. As for the actual blocking...Tony G. pointed out how grant missed a MONSTER hole he could have cut back to on 3rd and 1, woulda ran for 20 yards easy...instead he ran right into clifton. Spitz and Tauscher knocked their guys FLAT..the cutback lane was 3 yards wide...grant didn't cut.

There is nothing wrong with the ZBS and nothing says you HAVE to be smaller to execute it. I would bet that our OL avg. weight is comparable to the sherman years...and I would also say that college, spitz, wells have done more in 3/4 years than Wahle, Rivera, and Flannigan. Wahle was drafted as a left tackle and STUNK up the joint for 2 years, was average for his 3rd and came on in his 4th. Flannigan was hurt for 3 seasons, and rivera I couldn't even tell you what he did in the beginning.

All this being said, I don't like the way the OL is playing, I don't like the way grant is playing, and arod is still a first year starter so given the first 2, I'm not surprised he had a couple bad games.

On a better note, the light flipped on for collins apparently, woodsen is still a stud and hopefully we can stay healthier from here.

[mraynrand]

I wish the O-line hadn't fumbled and had the ball returned for A TD. The O-line needs to review the 'three points of pressure' hold on the ball.

[mraynrand]

I wish the O-line hadn't missed the blocking scheme by the TEs on Rodger's last INT. I also wish the O-line had not thrown late into the middle of the field. I wish the O-line had not called slow developing plays against a quick agile D-line.

[mission]

I wish the O-line hadn't missed the blocking scheme by the TEs on Rodger's last INT. I also wish the O-line had not thrown late into the middle of the field. I wish the O-line had not called slow developing plays against a quick agile D-line.

What else? :lol:

[mraynrand]

I wish the O-line hadn't missed the blocking scheme by the TEs on Rodger's last INT. I also wish the O-line had not thrown late into the middle of the field. I wish the O-line had not called slow developing plays against a quick agile D-line.

What else? :lol:

I wish I hadn't bought those Bears Stearns stocks. But I am glad I bought stock in the Opti-grab eyeglass company - they make the glasses Palin wears. They are all the rage.

[mission]

Im no financial analyst but some easy math puts it at "your wife is leaving you and the repo man is outside taking the cars" ?

Hopefully Palin and Co get elected for your sake.

[th87]

This whole experiment with the ZBS and leaner lineman isn't working. We're out of sync on the ZBS (which purportedly takes years to master, and our master is at Boston College). The small linemen are getting thrown back in Rodgers' face, and we can't convert 3rd and 1s.

This wasn't a great idea. Remember our unstoppable running game under Sherman? That was a more power-oriented scheme, also using the athletes to pull on sweeps and such. Now, even if we want to go to that, we can't, because these linemen aren't built for that.

We could also follow the Cowboys model. They drafted and acquired huge linemen until it finally clicked. Adams and Gurode were second rounders, and Colombo and Davis were free agent cast-offs. Look at the result. Romo has 5 seconds to throw, and Barber is able to crawl through giant holes. If Rodgers had this kind of time, we'd be talking MVP.

And Rodgers has how long to throw ???

Far less than that. And if he does get time, it's because we're in max protect. However, this decreases the number of potential receivers, giving the defense an advantage in coverage.

[th87]

I'm not inclined to disagree, but prolly should wait for the offseason. Spitz could be the C, Cliffy and Taush have proved they are good in a power gap scheme. Something just isnt right. It seems the last 3 seasons, the line starts out shit, and finishes up well. For once I'd like to see them start and finish well.

You can't "practice" cutting your guys and knocking them down...you have to get your reps in during the games. That is why we start out slow. As for the actual blocking...Tony G. pointed out how grant missed a MONSTER hole he could have cut back to on 3rd and 1, woulda ran for 20 yards easy...instead he ran right into clifton. Spitz and Tauscher knocked their guys FLAT..the cutback lane was 3 yards wide...grant didn't cut.

There is nothing wrong with the ZBS and nothing says you HAVE to be smaller to execute it. I would bet that our OL avg. weight is comparable to the sherman years...and I would also say that college, spitz, wells have done more in 3/4 years than Wahle, Rivera, and Flannigan. Wahle was drafted as a left tackle and STUNK up the joint for 2 years, was average for his 3rd and came on in his 4th. Flannigan was hurt for 3 seasons, and rivera I couldn't even tell you what he did in the beginning.

All this being said, I don't like the way the OL is playing, I don't like the way grant is playing, and arod is still a first year starter so given the first 2, I'm not surprised he had a couple bad games.

On a better note, the light flipped on for collins apparently, woodsen is still a stud and hopefully we can stay healthier from here.

True. The ZBS is more like a symphony that requires players to operate in perfect unison to be successful. This takes time and reps to develop, and I agree that this should pick up as the season moves along.

However, is it really worth it? A power gap scheme is far easier to implement, and has historically yielded good results. A bigger offensive line would do wonders for Rodgers' development.

The problem with running hybrid ZBS and power schemes is that the linemen seem to have been drafted with ZBS in mind. If their skillset is more geared towards that, how good can they be running power formations?

[Pugger]

The Tampa game the other day was the first time we had all 5 of our starters from last year, who played so well, together again. O lines need to play together before they jell as a unit. Remember how many games it took them last year before Grant ran wild? And Grant is technically still in TC mode. I'm praying the O line and our running game improve each week (it can't get much worse, can it?).