McGinn, what a nut, huh???

[wist43]

Oh, the insanity... Gimme those midget Offensive Linemen anyday... love to watch wimp ball :)

JSO copyrighted content removed

[th87]

Seems like he's spot on.

The ZBS requires too many things to be perfect for it to work, and with the injuries, lack of practice time, and inability to actually cut-block in practice, the scheme just doesn't seem very practical.

The power scheme requires a better running back, but relies more on physicality than a "symphony" of movements. The linemen required would also be bigger, thereby giving Rodgers a nice wall. Therefore, it would be ideal for this particular situation.

[mraynrand]

Boy, that Mike Sherman really sucked. Hey, he could be available to be the new line coach. Did A&M fire him yet?

[Pacopete4]

Boy, that Mike Sherman really sucked. Hey, he could be available to be the new line coach. Did A&M fire him yet?



couldnt agree more... with MM's knowledge of a passing game and MS being able to put together a great run game... wow that'd be a combo



but we'd still have a man names Sanders... and he fuckin blows

[Patler]

Boy, that Mike Sherman really sucked. Hey, he could be available to be the new line coach. Did A&M fire him yet?

couldnt agree more... with MM's knowledge of a passing game and MS being able to put together a great run game... wow that'd be a combo



But do you really want to see 340 pound tackles at TE 10-15 plays each game?? :lol: :lol:

[Pacopete4]

Boy, that Mike Sherman really sucked. Hey, he could be available to be the new line coach. Did A&M fire him yet?

couldnt agree more... with MM's knowledge of a passing game and MS being able to put together a great run game... wow that'd be a combo



But do you really want to see 340 pound tackles at TE 10-15 plays each game?? :lol: :lol: haha ur probably right but it might be amusing for awhile

[bobblehead]

Just checking....you guys realize that the system you are knocking is the one that ran all over our defense sunday right? And its the same system that kicked our asses in the superbowl right? And pretty much every team that sticks with the system turns out a really strong running game eventually right? Lets just say that clifton is a lot of the problem with our running game....that and college playing out of position.

[mraynrand]

I was being ironical.

[AtlPackFan]

Just checking....you guys realize that the system you are knocking is the one that ran all over our defense sunday right? And its the same system that kicked our asses in the superbowl right? And pretty much every team that sticks with the system turns out a really strong running game eventually right? Lets just say that clifton is a lot of the problem with our running game....that and college playing out of position.

McGinn stated in his article that Atlanta switched back to a power running scheme last year. Just an FYI...

[Patler]

Just checking....you guys realize that the system you are knocking is the one that ran all over our defense sunday right? And its the same system that kicked our asses in the superbowl right? And pretty much every team that sticks with the system turns out a really strong running game eventually right? Lets just say that clifton is a lot of the problem with our running game....that and college playing out of position.

Did they run the "U-71"?? I guess I missed it!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Besides...Who is knocking a system?
For the most part systems don't beat you, players beat you. The Packers have also lost some big games to teams playing the system the Packers now play, while the Packers were playing the system that beat them on Sunday.

[pbmax]

I think McGinn has gone loopy over the scheme. McCarthy tells him point blank that they are running a hybrid yet he is still on the ZBS hobby horse. McCarthy was clearly trying to upsize in the preseason but injuries and Colledge derailed the plans. Then Clifton and Tauscher start the year like their wheels have fallen off.

I still think the run blocking has improved compared to the beginning of last year. I think it was better with Spitz at center, so there is a point about size, but scheme isn't the issue here. Production was hampered by Grant's injury.

Sherman, for 3 to 4 years could run over teams yet somehow he always failed in the playoffs. Perhaps too much is made of scheme and not enough about gameday coaching and execution.

[KYPack]

I think McGinn has gone loopy over the scheme. McCarthy tells him point blank that they are running a hybrid yet he is still on the ZBS hobby horse. McCarthy was clearly trying to upsize in the preseason but injuries and Colledge derailed the plans. Then Clifton and Tauscher start the year like their wheels have fallen off.

I still think the run blocking has improved compared to the beginning of last year. I think it was better with Spitz at center, so there is a point about size, but scheme isn't the issue here. Production was hampered by Grant's injury.

Sherman, for 3 to 4 years could run over teams yet somehow he always failed in the playoffs. Perhaps too much is made of scheme and not enough about gameday coaching and execution.

You got it, PB

For awhile there, I thought McGinn didn't understand the differences between the Gibbs ZBS, the hybrid, and a standard power gap. Now, thanks to the article, I see he understands the different schemes, but his ire is misplaced.

There a bunch of different problems and issues with our line. Last year, it was the great bookend tackles paired with different combos of kids in the interior, taking turns screwing up.

This season, both tackles are having their problems. With Cliffy, the ax has fallen. He has been a physical wreck since the Sapp incident. In fact, he never really healed up. The coaches babied him in order to get him on the field. He is hurtin' and he can't get it done run blocking and has lost the quicks that made him such a great pass blocker. This may just be the end of the line for the Tennessee boy. Taush also has had problems, which I think are of a physical nature. Years of playing OT in the NFL will do that to you. Either way, neither of the bookends have played up to par.

On the inside, Wells injury has hurt us. I don't agree that Spitz's play was that great at C. The guy had 3 games in a row with a fucked-up exchange with ARod, producing a fumble (we recovered all 3). It's only one play in a game, but how many other times did ARod rescue a funky snap?. He blocks OK at C, but not better than a healthy Wells. Which we don't have. Scott's back is still problematical. When healthy, he is our best option at center. For those posters who routinely write that they are sick of seeing Wells getting rag-dolled at center, I've got some advice for ya. The problem must be in your TV. You are watching the wrong game or something. Wells doesn't get rag dolled repeatedly. He may lose a physical match-up here or there, but for several years now, he has actually been our best blocking interior lineman. The only times I've seen him really out-matched is against the Vikes. Join the club. Those fat boys whale on everybody. I've seen Olin Kruetz get hammered by those two land mammals. Wells is as good as anybody at blocking in the interior and he is head and shoulders above Spitz at executing the center snap.

The guards? Oy-vey!? I dunno. They are all developing, but not at the pace we need. The best guard is Spitz. He's average. Colledge has made a great of progress, so now he is a little below average, as opposed to flat out shitty like the last two years. Barbre looks like he will play LG now, & I'm encouraged by that. Barbre is very strong, but a clumsy bugger who is evidently a bit thick in the head. Coston is down near Beloit, hitch hiking down 41. Sitton? I hope he can come back and play effectively. He's another strong clumsy guy, but he did show promise in Pre-Season. Play Sitton, get Wells healthy, Colledge probably has to play LT. Let Barbre and Spitz shoot it out for the LG spot. Figure out a 5 player OLine, suit 'em up and get it on.

As far as McGinn & his beef with the "ZBS", I don't think the scheme is the problem. The Pack runs a little power gap & this bunch don't block that up any better than the hybred zone stuff. It ain't the X's and the O's, it's the Jim's and the Joes, Mr. McGinn. When we get our boys engaging, sustaining, and finishing blocks, our offense will hum. If they flounder around at the present rate, we are screwed, ZBS or no ZBS.

So put that in your column and lump it, BOB.

[Patler]

KY;

For the most part, I agree with you; but I'm not as enamored with Wells as you are. He darn near launched a shotgun snap over Rodgers' head, and screwed that snap with some regularity last year. He has his faults too, and he has been a center throughout college and the pros, except for the Packers misplaced idea of playing him at guard 3 years ago for half a season. Spitz is relatively new as a center. He played his entire college career as a guard. I don't recall him having exchange problems with Favre, and now this year his learning is complicated by having a new QB. He has had only a handful of starts at center in his life, and all as a pro. I think he and Rodgers can clean up the exchange problems, all of which may not be entirely his fault.

The coaches themselves offered the clearest indictment against Wells when they admitted this summer that they would have to alter some preferred blocking designs on some plays simply because Wells is too small to handle what they have asked him to do the last couple years. They specifically mentioned his size. The roster lists him at 303, but having seen him with other 300 lb lineman I don't believe he is anywhere close to that weight. He doesn't even look like a big linebacker.

He has experience that favors him over Spitz, and is said to be rock solid in line calls. But in physical performance, I would take Spitz. To put the best 5 out there right now probably requires Wells at center and Spitz at guard, but if Barbre or Sitton come on as guards, Wells could be replaced by Spitz, in my opinion.

[KYPack]

Yeah, I know what ya mean.

Wells might be all played out, too. Back problems don't just vanish for an NFL Center. If he's done, I'd have no big issue with Spitz at C. I didn't see Spitz scattering 'em like bowling pins, either, so i can't say Spitz is the magic answer in the middle. He has to work on snapping, both short and long.

We might have Colldege at LT, Barbre at LG, Spitz C and Sitton by the end of the year.

I really don't care as long as we can find a unit that can gel. This present bunch is a cluster.

[Patler]

Yeah, I know what ya mean.

Wells might be all played out, too. Back problems don't just vanish for an NFL Center. If he's done, I'd have no big issue with Spitz at C. I didn't see Spitz scattering 'em like bowling pins, either, so i can't say Spitz is the magic answer in the middle. He has to work on snapping, both short and long.

We might have Colldege at LT, Barbre at LG, Spitz C and Sitton by the end of the year.

I really don't care as long as we can find a unit that can gel. This present bunch is a cluster.

True enough. As I mentioned in another thread, the biggest frustration and disappointment for me has been Clifton and Tauscher seemingly falling off the cliff this year in performance, especially Clifton. I really think the middle is improving, but all of a sudden the tackles are disappearing. I have wondered how long Clifton would last after the Sapp thing. After reading a story detailing the injury, it was kind of amazing that he returned as quickly and as well as he did. One doctor said his goal would have been just to get him to be able to walk and sit normally and comfortably, anything else was gravy. It was a testament to Clifton's hard work that he came back like he did.

It's not unusual for tackles to play well for 10 years and more, into their mid 30's. It's not looking like the packers will get quite that much from either one. The change from last year to the first five games this year has been dramatic.

[Harlan Huckleby]

=We might have Colldege at LT, Barbre at LG, Spitz C and Sitton by the end of the year.

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see it. It would only make sense to make such a drastic move soon so they have time during the season to get their timing down, and its unlikely they would make so much change now. And then you would have two high-paid guys sitting on the bench, Wells & Clifton, which makes the GM look bad.

[Patler]

=We might have Colldege at LT, Barbre at LG, Spitz C and Sitton by the end of the year.

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see it. It would only make sense to make such a drastic move soon so they have time during the season to get their timing down, and its unlikely they would make so much change now. And then you would have two high-paid guys sitting on the bench, Wells & Clifton, which makes the GM look bad.

If its a move they want to make, they have a built in "save-face" excuse. Both have been injured enough to sit them on the bench saying they have been gutting it out for a couple weeks, but the "staff" has decided to give them the bye and a week before and/or after to get back to good health. They sat KGB during the season two years ago in spite of his salary, and moved Bubba to second string in spite of his.

[Patler]

=We might have Colldege at LT, Barbre at LG, Spitz C and Sitton by the end of the year.

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see it. It would only make sense to make such a drastic move soon so they have time during the season to get their timing down, and its unlikely they would make so much change now. And then you would have two high-paid guys sitting on the bench, Wells & Clifton, which makes the GM look bad.

If its a move they want to make, they have a built in "save-face" excuse. Both have been injured enough to sit them on the bench saying they have been gutting it out for a couple weeks, but the "staff" has decided to give them the bye and a week before and/or after to get back to good health. They sat KGB during the season two years ago in spite of his salary, and moved Bubba to second string in spite of his.

Per JSO, MM has talked to Clifton about sitting this week and/or next week going into the bye, to better "heal." His excuse? Recent troubles indicate the line needs to practice together. Clifton isn't able to practice even though he might be able to play. That's not good enough right now.

[Noodle]

I hate to say something that may sound like giving up on the season, as it's way too early for that, BUT

I think it's time to get serious about working up a line for the future. That means no more Cliffy, no more Wells. They've been warriors, but they aren't the future, and we're hampering growth by keeping them playing.

Give Spitz the job at C and Colledge the job at LT. I agree with KY that we should run Barbre at LG and Sitton at RG. Tausch can still go at RT, and I'd keep him there for continuity, even if he's not what he was. We can work on a new RT next offseason.

Then stick with them. Even when they blow. Stick with them and let's see what we've got at the end of the year. These guys have got to get reps together, and the musical chairs game in the interior is not the answer.

[KYPack]

Sounds like some of this is happening. Clifton may well not go Sunday. Colledge goes to LT if that's true. At LG, they are talking about Sitton or Barbre, depending on who seems more ready.

Let Barbre do it. Moving Sitton around could mess him up. Let that kid heal and leave him at RG. He's way too young to get shuffled. Maybe we find our OLine again. We never seem to get 'em going til mid-season under MM.

[SnakeLH2006]

It's pretty damn clear the Zone Blocking mess has not worked out well with our personnel. With so many NFL D schemes going to lighter quicker D-lines and schemes, it's only a natural that the NFL counters and goes back to basics with maulers. Look at the current best lines in the NFL. Most have a mauler. Look at Dallas' O-line. 320 plus across the board.

Bottom line. I dunno what you guys think, but in my mind it's pretty damn clear we need our next 1st rounder to be a bruiser OL with some beef to move peeps. It's back to basics. To counter quick, lighter DL, we need a smashmouth OL preferrably tackle to get us first downs. Small ball ain't cutting it. Draft a good, strong OL and scrap this BS Zone scheme already! :cry: