A hidden valley in Colorado

[HowardRoark]

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

[mraynrand]

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?


Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.

Probably the most powerful images from Atlas Shrugged are the people on the train in the collapsing tunnel reviewing how none of it is their fault, and the scene near the end where they are trying to torture Galt to give up the secret of his zero point energy engine, and he has to help them work the electrodes, because they don't know how.

[hoosier]

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

[HowardRoark]

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

For what it’s worth, I don’t watch much if any TV……and I don’t watch FOX. Your little catch phrase on regurgitation is regurgitation. But I am used to that from you.

I am not saying “take their marbles” and leave. I am saying that they no longer find it worth their while to take incremental risk to make more income. It is easier to just buy a bunch of Muni Bonds and go sit in the woods. Why take risk that can produce a whole lot of jobs if they just pay tax on the rewards of that risk?

As far as Docs, I am not a Doc, but members of my family are. They tell me that this is indeed something that they worry about. If you would ever read posts, you would realize that I don’t think the current system is good…..I just don’t think moving to a Universal Model is the answer.

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.

[Cheesehead Craig]

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.
That would be me!

But hey, I've decided we need to Free Tibet and that Fur is Murder, I've also been imagining whirrled peas, and how my Karma ran over my Dogma. Add in that pot should be legalized and that all religions should just coexist and I'm good.

[hoosier]

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

For what it’s worth, I don’t watch much if any TV……and I don’t watch FOX. Your little catch phrase on regurgitation is regurgitation. But I am used to that from you.

I am not saying “take their marbles” and leave. I am saying that they no longer find it worth their while to take incremental risk to make more income. It is easier to just buy a bunch of Muni Bonds and go sit in the woods. Why take risk that can produce a whole lot of jobs if they just pay tax on the rewards of that risk?

As far as Docs, I am not a Doc, but members of my family are. They tell me that this is indeed something that they worry about. If you would ever read posts, you would realize that I don’t think the current system is good…..I just don’t think moving to a Universal Model is the answer.

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.

You still haven't provided any kind of credible evidence that either of the scenarios you describe are real or potential problems. If you can't do so, it suggests to me that you're just making up--or repeating--stories to scare the children with.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Hidden Valley? Goes good with Buffalo Wings.

http://www.lclark.edu/~soan221/99wlc/ranch%20dressing.jpg

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?


Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.



Please supply some evidence that doctors are fleeing the country or leaving the profession. That is categorically not true.

Doctors are leaving certain areas of the profession, they are leaving certain states (reimbursements aren't the same in every state), but they are most certainly not leaving the country...and we need overseas doctors to replace those leaving.

More to the point..if they want to leave...let them. That is the nature of capitalism. I would be more than happy to have qualified doctors that will work for less. And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

xxx

[SkinBasket]

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.

[mraynrand]

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?


Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.



Please supply some evidence that doctors are fleeing the country or leaving the profession. That is categorically not true.

Doctors are leaving certain areas of the profession, they are leaving certain states (reimbursements aren't the same in every state), but they are most certainly not leaving the country...and we need overseas doctors to replace those leaving.

More to the point..if they want to leave...let them. That is the nature of capitalism. I would be more than happy to have qualified doctors that will work for less. And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.


No they are not leaving the country - at least not is droves. They are leaving (fleeing) the profession (early retirement) or choosing not to enter. Specifically in certain disciplines. And in many of these disciplines, foreigners are being recruited, often resulting in reduction in quality of services. And, if you're happy to go to foreign countries for medical care, all I can say is, the sooner the better. Cuba is waiting for your return.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?


Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.



Please supply some evidence that doctors are fleeing the country or leaving the profession. That is categorically not true.

Doctors are leaving certain areas of the profession, they are leaving certain states (reimbursements aren't the same in every state), but they are most certainly not leaving the country...and we need overseas doctors to replace those leaving.

More to the point..if they want to leave...let them. That is the nature of capitalism. I would be more than happy to have qualified doctors that will work for less. And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.


No they are not leaving the country - at least not is droves. They are leaving (fleeing) the profession (early retirement) or choosing not to enter. Specifically in certain disciplines. And in many of these disciplines, foreigners are being recruited, often resulting in reduction in quality of services. And, if you're happy to go to foreign countries for medical care, all I can say is, the sooner the better. Cuba is waiting for your return.

So, now you are basing your argument on early retirement? LOL

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

And, specific fields. That has always been the case. That isn't news. Wow, what a surprise that a growing number of docs don't want to be internists. Wow, what a surprise that a docs dont' gravitate to ob/gyn in small rural towns. Shocking!

Reduction in quality: Again, some stats. This is more bs on your part. And, quality of care in certain countries like Thailand is better than here for surgery. A much better patient to nurse ratio.

Overseas: Proving once again your complete lack of knowledge on this subject.

www.healthcareitnews.com/story.cms?id=9175

http://managedhealthcareexecutive.modernmedicine.com/mhe/Visionaries/Overseas-options-Jonathan-Edelheit-helps-prepare-U/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/489465?contextCategoryId=1045

www.ihf-fih.org/pdf/28-30%20medical%20tourism.pdf

[HowardRoark]

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

For what it’s worth, I don’t watch much if any TV……and I don’t watch FOX. Your little catch phrase on regurgitation is regurgitation. But I am used to that from you.

I am not saying “take their marbles” and leave. I am saying that they no longer find it worth their while to take incremental risk to make more income. It is easier to just buy a bunch of Muni Bonds and go sit in the woods. Why take risk that can produce a whole lot of jobs if they just pay tax on the rewards of that risk?

As far as Docs, I am not a Doc, but members of my family are. They tell me that this is indeed something that they worry about. If you would ever read posts, you would realize that I don’t think the current system is good…..I just don’t think moving to a Universal Model is the answer.

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.

You still haven't provided any kind of credible evidence that either of the scenarios you describe are real or potential problems. If you can't do so, it suggests to me that you're just making up--or repeating--stories to scare the children with.

I am not advocating shutting down the IRS. For some reason I am under the impression you are able to understand academic, esoteric ideas. Maybe I am mistaken. I have nothing personal against you, Ty, or any other Liberal……I am just trying to have a discussion. Frankly, the thing that strikes the most fear in me about my country is the lack of honest discussions about ideas that now permeates the air.

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

1. Here we go….Regan’s classic example (excuse my lack of specifics footnotes, I’m tired). He was an actor in the 1960s when the top marginal rate was around 90% (we’ll get those rich people!). Sometime later in the year, he would have a choice as to whether or not to make another movie. He knew that he would take home ten cents on the dollar to make another movie, so he stayed home. By staying home, he also ensured that all the other people needed to make the film (not so rich) did not make an income. This obviously hurt the little guy more than it hurt the rich actor. I know marginal rates are not at 90% now, remember, this is an academic discussion.

2. As far as Doctors, back in 2002 (I think, OregonPackFan can verify), Oregon had a referendum on the ballot for State Universal healthcare. It failed. I know/knew Docs in Portland at that time. The older ones, within a few years of retirement, warned their nursing staffs that they would retire early if it passed. Younger Docs, who were not tied down by family, etc, were ready to move to a different state. This goes to Ty’s point actually. He stated that Docs move between states depending on state involvement.

3. Lastly, and this might be somewhat of a digression, but GM today is an example of how the so called “bogeyman” of math catches up with things. For every 100 employees at GM, they work to cover around 330 retired GM workers. You could make a pretty good argument that GM is nothing more than an under funded pension account that tries to sell cars to meet their obligations. It is about to go bankrupt under this weight. This is the same that will happen to our country.

I have a pretty strong feeling that the next few years will be very difficult for the “rich” in our country. But our system needs the “rich.” Every Monday morning the sun rises and the system BEGS for a new person to step up to the plate and become rich. Our county will fail without the risk takers who are rewarded for these risks. That’s the point I am trying to make.

I know nothing about you, but let’s say you are worth $10 million, and are very good at starting software companies. These companies typically employ anywhere from 10-80 people. The question I have is what is a good marginal tax rate to keep guys like you in the game?

One last thing....I don't consider my fellow countrymen and women "children."

[hoosier]

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

1. Here we go….Regan’s classic example (excuse my lack of specifics footnotes, I’m tired). He was an actor in the 1960s when the top marginal rate was around 90% (we’ll get those rich people!). Sometime later in the year, he would have a choice as to whether or not to make another movie. He knew that he would take home ten cents on the dollar to make another movie, so he stayed home. By staying home, he also ensured that all the other people needed to make the film (not so rich) did not make an income. This obviously hurt the little guy more than it hurt the rich actor. I know marginal rates are not at 90% now, remember, this is an academic discussion.

Let me get this straight. The top marginal rate in 1960 was indeed 90% (actually it was 91%), but it was applied for income over $400,000. Do you REALLY think Reagan was taking in over 400K a year as an actor? :lol: :lol: And do you really think that if Reagan decided not to act in a film that his decision would affect whether or not a film got produced??? :lol: :lol: :lol: Howie, it looks like you are grossly overestimating Reagan's worth and influence as an actor. Where did you pull this stuff from? It's great stuff; I'd love to read more!


2. As far as Doctors, back in 2002 (I think, OregonPackFan can verify), Oregon had a referendum on the ballot for State Universal healthcare. It failed. I know/knew Docs in Portland at that time. The older ones, within a few years of retirement, warned their nursing staffs that they would retire early if it passed. Younger Docs, who were not tied down by family, etc, were ready to move to a different state. This goes to Ty’s point actually. He stated that Docs move between states depending on state involvement.

This is anecdotal. I know doctors who are thinking about getting out because they're sick and tired of dealing with BCBS. So should we abolish private insurance companies or go back to a system with high degree of government regulation just because I know a few doctors who hate the current system? If we're going to discuss this seriously we need to move away from "Howie knows some doctors in Oregon who think universal health care is a bad idea" and "Retail Guy hired some people who don't like to work."


3. Lastly, and this might be somewhat of a digression, but GM today is an example of how the so called “bogeyman” of math catches up with things. For every 100 employees at GM, they work to cover around 330 retired GM workers. You could make a pretty good argument that GM is nothing more than an under funded pension account that tries to sell cars to meet their obligations. It is about to go bankrupt under this weight. This is the same that will happen to our country.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. When did we start talking about pensions?



I have a pretty strong feeling that the next few years will be very difficult for the “rich” in our country. But our system needs the “rich.” Every Monday morning the sun rises and the system BEGS for a new person to step up to the plate and become rich. Our county will fail without the risk takers who are rewarded for these risks. That’s the point I am trying to make.

I know nothing about you, but let’s say you are worth $10 million, and are very good at starting software companies. These companies typically employ anywhere from 10-80 people. The question I have is what is a good marginal tax rate to keep guys like you in the game?

The top marginal rate now in the US is what, 35% now? And Obama wants, what, to bump it up to 39% How can you possibly sit there and write that the next few years are giong to be "very difficult" for the rich? Look at where income distribution has been going in this country over the past few decades: the rich are getting richer and the divide between rich and poor is getting larger and larger. We can argue later about why that's the case and whether or not it's something that needs to change, but for now I just want to point out that your claim that the rich are facing hard times is not supported by the facts. On the contrary, the facts show exactly the opposite.

[mraynrand]

And, quality of care in certain countries like Thailand is better than here for surgery. A much better patient to nurse ratio.

Overseas: Proving once again your complete lack of knowledge on this subject.



Then head to Thailand and get your lobotomy revised. With those extra nurses, I'm sure they can soak up the drool a little better.

[hoosier]

I have nothing personal against you, Ty, or any other Liberal……I am just trying to have a discussion. Frankly, the thing that strikes the most fear in me about my country is the lack of honest discussions about ideas that now permeates the air.

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

I'm not dismissing your argument because it involves Reagan, I'm questioning your logic because, frankly, it strikes me as illogical. You say you are concerned about the lack of sincere discussion between the opposing ends of the political spectrum in this country. I agree. But I would suggest that the chances for real dialogue are diminished, not increased, when we make claims that are based on poorly thought out examples or examples that appeal to the emotions. The Left is undoubtedly guilty of this as well the Right. The claim that doctors will start quitting in droves if we implement universal health care is one example of such an appeal to emotion; the story about the rich taking their marbles and going home (whether this means moving to Costa Rica or just pulling out of the market) is another such example. If you can provide real evidence that these are in fact significant trends or real possibilties, I will rethink my position. Until then I can only see these scenarios as bogeymen.

[mraynrand]

Look at where income distribution has been going in this country over the past few decades: the rich are getting richer and the divide between rich and poor is getting larger and larger.

A few points:

'Rich getting richer' - The ranks of millionaires (which has grown rapidly - can't recall the exact number, but I think it it 1-3 million in the U.S.), is made up of people who, to the large part (about 70%) come from no money. That is, they are self made.

Rich and Poor: How are they defined? Doesn't the definition matter critically? I typically see factors like wages and total income. I don't see factors like services available factored in. In our society taxation flows strongly in one direction with taxes from 'the rich' going to social programs for 'the poor.' Who are the poor? Where do they live? How do they live? What opportunities do they have to get our of being poor.

Classes (mostly age). For 10 years of my life, I was 'the poor' - making less than 18K/year. Some of those years were in school and some were working in a low-paying job. I now make more, but personally am not 'the rich' (making 250K or more). People overwhelmingly do not stay in the same income group over the course of their lives. Many of 'the poor' become 'the rich.' - and at least 60-80% become much better off. Defining 'the poor' and 'the rich' by income completely ignores changing situations for individuals. By defining the poor by income, the poor will always be poor and the rich always rich. And since the country (at least up til now) kept getting richer, if you keep the definition of the poor the same, the rich will appear to be getting richer.

Rich getting richer: What does this mean? Using the water bucket analogy, Does it mean that the rich can pull their water from the poor side of the bucket, and leave it empty or the water level lower? Do the rich hide their money under the mattress? Maybe they buy some gold, but 'the rich' purchase and invest. Who benefits from their purchases and investments?

'Rich having a hard time with higher taxes' - Maybe not - especially the rich who have no new job income that can be taxed. But in terms of the economy, the rich having a 'hard time' means nothing except relative to what they contribute to job and job creation. If you make it harder for businesses to start businesses - drive down investment, tax productivity, that's a negative for everyone. For example, Obama's tax increase on 200-250K earners will hit small businesses (the businesses from 10-500 workers who really are the growth sector of the nation) very hard. These 'rich' businessmen/women will have to make hard choices about employment and expansion. Some of the larger ones may even move operations overseas where the tax rates are lower - perhaps even open a lobotomy clinic in Thailand.

[SkinBasket]

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.


What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

[SkinBasket]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

[mraynrand]

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.


What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

Never fear: The 'Doctors without Borders' delegation from Thailand is on it's way to treat the downtrodden folks in American who just cannot get decent care. They are bringing extra nurses and the curative leaves of the Hoan Ngoc tree.

[HowardRoark]

I have nothing personal against you, Ty, or any other Liberal……I am just trying to have a discussion. Frankly, the thing that strikes the most fear in me about my country is the lack of honest discussions about ideas that now permeates the air.

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

I'm not dismissing your argument because it involves Reagan, I'm questioning your logic because, frankly, it strikes me as illogical. You say you are concerned about the lack of sincere discussion between the opposing ends of the political spectrum in this country. I agree. But I would suggest that the chances for real dialogue are diminished, not increased, when we make claims that are based on poorly thought out examples or examples that appeal to the emotions. The Left is undoubtedly guilty of this as well the Right. The claim that doctors will start quitting in droves if we implement universal health care is one example of such an appeal to emotion; the story about the rich taking their marbles and going home (whether this means moving to Costa Rica or just pulling out of the market) is another such example. If you can provide real evidence that these are in fact significant trends or real possibilties, I will rethink my position. Until then I can only see these scenarios as bogeymen.

Forget about it Bobby, it's just a thought experiment. Something we used to do in our country.

At what marginal tax rate do people with capital not put that capital at risk anymore because it's not worth it anymore?

I'm not going to take the time to see how much Reagan made, that's not the point.....plug the richest actor in 1965 into the question, make up a theoretical actor!

[Scott Campbell]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.


What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

Are you slow. This isn't private costs. This is covered by anyone with a plan..united, bcbs, etc.

That is the future. Get ready.

[hoosier]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.

[HowardRoark]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.

Daj mi slobodu ili mi dajte smrt. Kad dečki trebaju nam pomoći izbrisati Vaše magarce, potražite nas u Hrvatskoj. Samo ne pitajte nas za pivo. Sretno.

[hoosier]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.

Daj mi slobodu ili mi dajte smrt. Kad dečki trebaju nam pomoći izbrisati Vaše magarce, potražite nas u Hrvatskoj. Samo ne pitajte nas za pivo. Sretno.

No slobodu for you today, Howie. You'll get nothing and like it!

[HowardRoark]

You'll get nothing and like it!

Barem imaš ovaj dio desno. Želim ništa.

[SkinBasket]

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.


What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

Are you slow. This isn't private costs. This is covered by anyone with a plan..united, bcbs, etc.

That is the future. Get ready.

Oh, so how is this plan to ship everyone to Taiwan funded? Or are the airlines carrying people for free? Since we're talking about the future, perhaps Scotty will just beam people there, saving the 2-4K in costs?

[SkinBasket]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

Well thank goodness you've made your point that med schools don't have empty seats, but instead have "good applicants" (versus those nasty bad applicants) filling each and every one. For a second there, I thought maybe your point had nothing to do with your argument.

[Scott Campbell]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.


Costa Rica baby.

[MJZiggy]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.


Costa Rica baby.

Quiero ir.

[mraynrand]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.


Costa Rica baby.

Quiero ir.\
Vamanos ahora.

[MJZiggy]

Hay problema. No soy rica. Yo no soy la que es importante aqui. Mierda. Querida ir pero necesito trabajar por survivir como gente normal.

[Partial]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

[Scott Campbell]

....smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.



Typical.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.


What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

Are you slow. This isn't private costs. This is covered by anyone with a plan..united, bcbs, etc.

That is the future. Get ready.

Oh, so how is this plan to ship everyone to Taiwan funded? Or are the airlines carrying people for free? Since we're talking about the future, perhaps Scotty will just beam people there, saving the 2-4K in costs?

Are you that slow? Do i have to spell it ou for you.

Look, if an operation costs 50K here, and 25K there....the flight isn't a problem. I posted links...read them.

The insurers are already doing this. They are also offering you, the consumer the option..stay in the states and have the work done here...or go overseas and they will give you part of the savings.

[Partial]

source?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.


Well thank goodness you've made your point that med schools don't have empty seats, but instead have "good applicants" (versus those nasty bad applicants) filling each and every one. For a second there, I thought maybe your point had nothing to do with your argument.

Doesn't change the truth, which is that rand is wrong.

The rest is just your lame attempt at a pyrhic victory.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

source?

Google it. Isn't that what you told me to do. :oops:

[Partial]

source?

Google it. Isn't that what you told me to do. :oops:

The situations are hardly similiar. :oops:

You're saying I'm wrong on something, disagreeing with the quote I've provided.

You're refusing to provide a quote, source, or anything.

You must not roll with many doctors.


:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :roll:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

1. Good candidates...right. Please show some proof of that. Otherwise it is just more of your bullshit.

2. Med schools easier. Right. PA programs may have more applicants..again some proof please.

3. People choosing PA over doctor. Right. Sure they are. This is ludicrous. To compare the roll and salary of a PA to a physician is hilarious.

4. Skin. Man, you can't even follow along. I never said he wasn't classy enough to roll with applicants...clearly he is...as he stated he knew many. Try and follow along...the folks he knows may be classy, but not smart enough or have the grades.

5. Punch me. LOL. Wow. you are showing your class. And, i would be glad to let you punch me...as there would be nothing more hilarious than watching you go jail on an assualt and battery charge. I'm sure your future employers will love that when they run a background check and discover you are a new felon. Good times.

Not to mention the time, money and aggravation it will cost you since it is also a tort, which means I can sue you for damages.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

source?

Google it. Isn't that what you told me to do. :oops:

The situations are hardly similiar. :oops:

You're saying I'm wrong on something, disagreeing with the quote I've provided.

You're refusing to provide a quote, source, or anything.

You must not roll with many doctors.


:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :roll:

Yes, they are..as i provided 3 links. If you want specifics..go ahead and look for yourself.

Drs: Right. I only have 3 in my immediate family. I've only been discussing or listening to healthcare issues for a solid 25 years.

[Partial]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

1. Good candidates...right. Please show some proof of that. Otherwise it is just more of your bullshit.

2. Med schools easier. Right. PA programs may have more applicants..again some proof please.

3. People choosing PA over doctor. Right. Sure they are. This is ludicrous. To compare the roll and salary of a PA to a physician is hilarious.

4. Skin. Man, you can't even follow along. I never said he wasn't classy enough to roll with applicants...clearly he is...as he stated he knew many. Try and follow along...the folks he knows may be classy, but not smart enough or have the grades.

5. Punch me. LOL. Wow. you are showing your class. And, i would be glad to let you punch me...as there would be nothing more hilarious than watching you go jail on an assualt and battery charge. I'm sure your future employers will love that when they run a background check and discover you are a new felon. Good times.

Not to mention the time, money and aggravation it will cost you since it is also a tort, which means I can sue you for damages.

1) I'm disputing your claim which you provided zero sources?

2) There are a lot more doctors than PAs. Also, a lot more medical programs than PA programs. Look it up. I have very good knowledge of the subject as my girlfriend is in a top 15 PA program and also applied and was accepted to many medical schools. Maybe for the very top level of medical schools yes, but for most... no way is it even comparable. You don't need very good grades at all to get into medical school. Good luck getting into a PA program without first rate grades.

3) That's funny because all of the ladies' friends all chose to be PAs over doctors. Clearly doctors appreciate them or the job wouldn't exist. Also, would it be money magazines #1 field to go into if it weren't popular and important? Sure, salary isn't as high because the doctor is always the boss. Go to a hospital and see what kind of income the docs make.. Not as much as you'd think. Private practice is where the $ is. Again though, since they essentially are a doctor (they can write perscriptions, etc, most people go to see a PA for checkups, PAs can do a large amount of surgeries, etc), I don't really think your statement holds any water. The role is very, very similiar except the PAs actually take care of the patients. No one compared the salary except yourself...

4. You said smart doctors don't roll with his type. Are you calling him dumb? How many doctors do you roll with? Please son... Just because both of your parents were doctors doesn't mean you're smart enough to be one or you would be. Your shit stinks as much as anybodies.

5. Ok big guy. That's really manly of you. I bet back in whitefish bay when you were clocked in the dome during high school you went and cried to your doc folks as well.

:oops: :roll:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

1. Good candidates...right. Please show some proof of that. Otherwise it is just more of your bullshit.

2. Med schools easier. Right. PA programs may have more applicants..again some proof please.

3. People choosing PA over doctor. Right. Sure they are. This is ludicrous. To compare the roll and salary of a PA to a physician is hilarious.

4. Skin. Man, you can't even follow along. I never said he wasn't classy enough to roll with applicants...clearly he is...as he stated he knew many. Try and follow along...the folks he knows may be classy, but not smart enough or have the grades.

5. Punch me. LOL. Wow. you are showing your class. And, i would be glad to let you punch me...as there would be nothing more hilarious than watching you go jail on an assualt and battery charge. I'm sure your future employers will love that when they run a background check and discover you are a new felon. Good times.

Not to mention the time, money and aggravation it will cost you since it is also a tort, which means I can sue you for damages.

1) I'm disputing your claim which you provided zero sources?

2) There are a lot more doctors than PAs. Also, a lot more medical programs than PA programs. Look it up. I have very good knowledge of the subject as my girlfriend is in a top 15 PA program and also applied and was accepted to many medical schools. Maybe for the very top level of medical schools yes, but for most... no way is it even comparable. You don't need very good grades at all to get into medical school. Good luck getting into a PA program without first rate grades.

3) That's funny because all of the ladies' friends all chose to be PAs over doctors. Clearly doctors appreciate them or the job wouldn't exist. Also, would it be money magazines #1 field to go into if it weren't popular and important? Sure, salary isn't as high because the doctor is always the boss. Go to a hospital and see what kind of income the docs make.. Not as much as you'd think. Private practice is where the $ is. Again though, since they essentially are a doctor (they can write perscriptions, etc, most people go to see a PA for checkups, PAs can do a large amount of surgeries, etc), I don't really think your statement holds any water. The role is very, very similiar except the PAs actually take care of the patients. No one compared the salary except yourself...

4. You said smart doctors don't roll with his type. Are you calling him dumb? How many doctors do you roll with? Please son... Just because both of your parents were doctors doesn't mean you're smart enough to be one or you would be. Your shit stinks as much as anybodies.

5. Ok big guy. That's really manly of you. I bet back in whitefish bay when you were clocked in the dome during high school you went and cried to your doc folks as well.

:oops: :roll:

You have lost. Face it.

1. Zero sources. Wrong. I provided 3 right away. It isn't my fault that you jump in midway. That is pretty typical of you.

So, that is point one that you are wrong.

2. med vs. pa programs. Who was arguing the #. As for Money magazine...that isn't what you are saying. They choose by need, etc. No one is disputing the need for PAs or nurses..or doctors.

You dont' need good grades to get into med school. Right. Then, maybe you should explain to Skin's friends that couldn't get in that they must be complete losers.

That is just so ludicrous that it makes you even appear more stupid..which i thought wasn't possible.

PA programs..like which ones. Grad or just the ones that require 2 years of schooling. LOL

There are currently about 140 plus med schools...and, about 90 PA programs offering masters level.

Salary: Dude. Don't make me laugh. The worst doctors make at least 50% more than a PA..taking out ambulatory from the equation. Most PAs top out in the 90s. Most doctors aren't in the low paying fields like internal medicine or pediatrics.which max out over 200K. The lowest average max out is ambulatory at 150K.

You really shouldn't talk about things you know very little. I can list 50 physicians that i know personally..from ages 35-70.

Role: No one goes to see a PA for primary care. They go to a doctor who has a PA on staff. No PA can work on their own. The role is similar to a hygenist and dentist.

Surgey: LOL. No pa can perform surgery. They assist in surgery and they do pre and post op care.

Scripts: LOL No pa can write a prescription.

You just have proven how little you know about the field.

3: Ladies? What does that prove or mean. Women choose careers for many reasons. However, there are equal amounts of women in med school now. And, who knows why some would choose PA or Nurse instead..if grades arent' the issue. Perhaps they like the less school and less hours so they can be home with their family.

4. Skin. Wow, now you get the joke. More importantly...why are you defending him? Is he incapable of doing it for himself?

5. Docs...as noted...prolly at least 50 that i can immediately count. From plastic surgeons, radiologists, shrinks, urologists, etc. Pretty much the gamut.

6. Smart enough. You would be wrong. My test scores prove otherwise. As would recs from those docs who know me. More importantly, i never had any interest in the field..nor did my parents ever want their children to enter that field.

7. Manly. Well, that just shows your maturity level and your concepts of manhood.

P.S. I didn't grow up in Whitefolks Bay. Second, i didn't get into fights. I was too smart and centered to get into fights. My god, only idiots are fighting in high school. And, those that are in college that are doing so..or thinking about it...morons.

[hoosier]

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.


Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.


Costa Rica baby.

Buen viaje entonces. Hasta nunca, vendepatria.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

They keep talking about leaving....stop teasing us. Just go.

[Partial]

CAPS....









Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

1. Good candidates...right. Please show some proof of that. Otherwise it is just more of your bullshit.

2. Med schools easier. Right. PA programs may have more applicants..again some proof please.

3. People choosing PA over doctor. Right. Sure they are. This is ludicrous. To compare the roll and salary of a PA to a physician is hilarious.

4. Skin. Man, you can't even follow along. I never said he wasn't classy enough to roll with applicants...clearly he is...as he stated he knew many. Try and follow along...the folks he knows may be classy, but not smart enough or have the grades.

5. Punch me. LOL. Wow. you are showing your class. And, i would be glad to let you punch me...as there would be nothing more hilarious than watching you go jail on an assualt and battery charge. I'm sure your future employers will love that when they run a background check and discover you are a new felon. Good times.

Not to mention the time, money and aggravation it will cost you since it is also a tort, which means I can sue you for damages.

1) I'm disputing your claim which you provided zero sources?

2) There are a lot more doctors than PAs. Also, a lot more medical programs than PA programs. Look it up. I have very good knowledge of the subject as my girlfriend is in a top 15 PA program and also applied and was accepted to many medical schools. Maybe for the very top level of medical schools yes, but for most... no way is it even comparable. You don't need very good grades at all to get into medical school. Good luck getting into a PA program without first rate grades.

3) That's funny because all of the ladies' friends all chose to be PAs over doctors. Clearly doctors appreciate them or the job wouldn't exist. Also, would it be money magazines #1 field to go into if it weren't popular and important? Sure, salary isn't as high because the doctor is always the boss. Go to a hospital and see what kind of income the docs make.. Not as much as you'd think. Private practice is where the $ is. Again though, since they essentially are a doctor (they can write perscriptions, etc, most people go to see a PA for checkups, PAs can do a large amount of surgeries, etc), I don't really think your statement holds any water. The role is very, very similiar except the PAs actually take care of the patients. No one compared the salary except yourself...

4. You said smart doctors don't roll with his type. Are you calling him dumb? How many doctors do you roll with? Please son... Just because both of your parents were doctors doesn't mean you're smart enough to be one or you would be. Your shit stinks as much as anybodies.

5. Ok big guy. That's really manly of you. I bet back in whitefish bay when you were clocked in the dome during high school you went and cried to your doc folks as well.

:oops: :roll:

You have lost. Face it.

1. Zero sources. Wrong. I provided 3 right away. It isn't my fault that you jump in midway. That is pretty typical of you.

So, that is point one that you are wrong.

2. med vs. pa programs. Who was arguing the #. As for Money magazine...that isn't what you are saying. They choose by need, etc. No one is disputing the need for PAs or nurses..or doctors.

RIGHT. I'M SAYING PLENTY OF QUALIFIED PEOPLE WITH BRAINS CHOOSE BEING A PA OVER A DOCTOR BECAUSE THEY'RE MORE CONCERNED WITH HELPING PEOPLE THAN MAKING THE BIG BUCKS. MY GF IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

You dont' need good grades to get into med school. Right. Then, maybe you should explain to Skin's friends that couldn't get in that they must be complete losers.

MAYBE THE FLUNKED OUT OR CHANGED THEIR MINDS? I HAVE NO IDEA. FACTS ARE FACTS. THERE ARE FAR MORE MEDICAL PROGRAMS THAN PA PROGRAMS, SO BY VIRTUE OF LIMITED SPOTS, IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO GET INTO A SCHOOL. TO GET INTO A REALLY HIGH END TOP 15 MEDICAL SCHOOL IS PROBABLY HARDER, THOUGH.


That is just so ludicrous that it makes you even appear more stupid..which i thought wasn't possible.

REALLY? DO THE HOMEWORK... HAVE YOU APPLIED TO ANY MEDICAL SCHOOLS LATELY? HOW ABOUT PA SCHOOLS? I'VE GONE THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS WITH MY GIRLFRIEND. TYPICAL LIBERAL SPEAKING OF WICH HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE.

PA programs..like which ones. Grad or just the ones that require 2 years of schooling. LOL

UHHH... OTHER THAN MADISON WHAT PA PROGRAMS DON'T GIVE YOU A MASTERS? PA IS AN UNDERGRAD IN TYPICALLY BIOLOGY/CHEM/PREMED THAN TWO YEARS OF THE SAME CLASSES DOCTORS TAKE.

FUNNY STORY ACTUALLY. AT ROSALIND FRANKLIN, A TOP 20 MEDICAL AND PA SCHOOL IN GENERAL MEDICINE, THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE ALL COCKY DOUCHES. IRONICALLY, THE TOP 10% ON THE LAST EXAM WAS ALL PA STUDENTS. THE TEACHER, A PA, POINTED IT OUT BECAUSE THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE DOUCHES.


There are currently about 140 plus med schools...and, about 90 PA programs offering masters level.



Salary: Dude. Don't make me laugh. The worst doctors make at least 50% more than a PA..taking out ambulatory from the equation. Most PAs top out in the 90s. Most doctors aren't in the low paying fields like internal medicine or pediatrics.which max out over 200K. The lowest average max out is ambulatory at 150K.

NO SHIT. WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SALARY? ONLY YOU. I SAID ITS NOT COMPARABLE. I ALSO SAID A DOCTOR IN A HOSPITAL ISN'T EARNING AS MUCH AS YOU THINK. AND THE 200K IN AVERAGE DEBT AT 8% (TODAY, WAIT UNTIL ITS 15% 5 YEARS FROM NOW WITH THE WAY CREDIT IS) COMPOUNDS AWFULLY QUICKLY.

BTW, PAS DON'T HAVE MALPRACTICE INSURANCE EITHER. THEY'RE COVERED BY THEIR DOCTORS. THAT IS A GOOD CHUNK OF THE DOCTORS EARNINGS AS WELL.

GOOD PA'S START AT 90S DEPENDING WHAT THEY'RE IN AND WHERE THEY WENT TO SCHOOL, HOW OLD THEY ARE, ETC. MY GIRLFRIEND HAS TALKED WITH CONSOLERS AND MY STEP MOM IS AN ADMIN AT A MILWAUKEE HOSPITAL, AND THEY BOTH AGREE SHE CAN GET ABOUT 80 IN GENERAL MEDICINE STARTING. SHE WANTS TO DO SURGERY, WHERE SHE CAN GET 150K WITH EXPERIENCE. PRIVATE PRACTICE PAS THAT SPECIALIZE IN SOMETHING CAN EASILY BILL OUT 75-100 BUCKS AN HOUR. DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON TRAVELING PAS AND THE 300 THEY CAN BILL AN HOUR.

You really shouldn't talk about things you know very little. I can list 50 physicians that i know personally..from ages 35-70.

WELL, THATS GOOD, BUT YOU JUST SERVED ABOVE.

Role: No one goes to see a PA for primary care. They go to a doctor who has a PA on staff. No PA can work on their own. The role is similar to a hygenist and dentist.

ITS NOT AT ALL SIMILIAR TO A HYGENIST. YOU'RE SUCH A DUMBASS IF YOU THINK THATS TRUE. GO TO ANY AURURA FACILITY WITH A COLD... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A DERMATOLOGIST IN MILWAUKEE... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A PODIATRIST... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. SHUT THE FUCK UP MAN, THAT IS BEYOND RETARDED.

Surgey: LOL. No pa can perform surgery. They assist in surgery and they do pre and post op care.

SURGICAL ASSISTANTS ARE COMPLETELY TRAINED TO COMPLETE SURGERIES. WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? PA != NURSE. PA IS A STRIPPED DOWN DOCTOR.

Scripts: LOL No pa can write a prescription.

THATS FUNNY. ITS MY UNDERSTANDING PA'S IN SOME STATES AND FIELDS CAN WRITE ALL OF THEIR PERSCRIPTIONS, AND MUST A VERY SMALL FRACTION OF THEM SIGNED OFF BY A DOCTOR AT THE END OF A PERIOD OF TIME (LIKE A MONTH)

DO YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR ARE YOU JUST MAKING THIS UP?!?! IT'S A LOAD OF BULL... EVERY PA WITH A MASTERS DEGREE CAN WRITE PERSCRIPTIONS AS FAR AS I KNOW. THERE MAY BE SOME RARE EXCEPTIONS, BUT THAT IS NOT USUALLY THE CASE.

You just have proven how little you know about the field.

SEE ABOVE. YOU'RE SO WRONG ITS LAUGHABLE BROHAM.

3: Ladies? What does that prove or mean. Women choose careers for many reasons. However, there are equal amounts of women in med school now. And, who knows why some would choose PA or Nurse instead..if grades arent' the issue. Perhaps they like the less school and less hours so they can be home with their family.

I WAS REFERENCING ALL OF MY GIRLFRIENDS FRIENDS AT RFUMS. MANY ARE MEN AS WELL. PA IS A VERY POPULAR CHOICE NOW. VERY HIGH IN DEMAND..



4. Skin. Wow, now you get the joke. More importantly...why are you defending him? Is he incapable of doing it for himself?




5. Docs...as noted...prolly at least 50 that i can immediately count. From plastic surgeons, radiologists, shrinks, urologists, etc. Pretty much the gamut.


THATS GOOD. I KNOW ABOUT 20 PEOPLE WHO WILL BE PAS NEXT YEAR, SO I FEEL QUITE QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ON THE SUBJECT.

6. Smart enough. You would be wrong. My test scores prove otherwise. As would recs from those docs who know me. More importantly, i never had any interest in the field..nor did my parents ever want their children to enter that field.

7. Manly. Well, that just shows your maturity level and your concepts of manhood.

P.S. I didn't grow up in Whitefolks Bay. Second, i didn't get into fights. I was too smart and centered to get into fights. My god, only idiots are fighting in high school. And, those that are in college that are doing so..or thinking about it...morons.

TY, TY, TY... IF YOU ACTED HALF AS COCKY IN REAL LIFE AS YOU DO ON THESE BOARDS, YOU'D GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE DAILY. FACTS ARE FACTS DUDE.

[Scott Campbell]

They keep talking about leaving....stop teasing us. Just go.


Like she did?

[bobblehead]

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?


Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.



Please supply some evidence that doctors are fleeing the country or leaving the profession. That is categorically not true.

Doctors are leaving certain areas of the profession, they are leaving certain states (reimbursements aren't the same in every state), but they are most certainly not leaving the country...and we need overseas doctors to replace those leaving.

More to the point..if they want to leave...let them. That is the nature of capitalism. I would be more than happy to have qualified doctors that will work for less. And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.


No they are not leaving the country - at least not is droves. They are leaving (fleeing) the profession (early retirement) or choosing not to enter. Specifically in certain disciplines. And in many of these disciplines, foreigners are being recruited, often resulting in reduction in quality of services. And, if you're happy to go to foreign countries for medical care, all I can say is, the sooner the better. Cuba is waiting for your return.

So, now you are basing your argument on early retirement? LOL

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

And, specific fields. That has always been the case. That isn't news. Wow, what a surprise that a growing number of docs don't want to be internists. Wow, what a surprise that a docs dont' gravitate to ob/gyn in small rural towns. Shocking!

Reduction in quality: Again, some stats. This is more bs on your part. And, quality of care in certain countries like Thailand is better than here for surgery. A much better patient to nurse ratio.

Overseas: Proving once again your complete lack of knowledge on this subject.

www.healthcareitnews.com/story.cms?id=9175

http://managedhealthcareexecutive.modernmedicine.com/mhe/Visionaries/Overseas-options-Jonathan-Edelheit-helps-prepare-U/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/489465?contextCategoryId=1045

www.ihf-fih.org/pdf/28-30%20medical%20tourism.pdf

I'm not going to waste much time blogging while I sit here in thailand, but I am going to make this post.....there is exaxtly ONE hospital here that I would consider going to for treatment. I enjoy myself here, but using it as a model or example in any arguement automatically diminishes the entire arguement in my eyes.

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

[bobblehead]

the story about the rich taking their marbles and going home (whether this means moving to Costa Rica or just pulling out of the market) is another such example. If you can provide real evidence that these are in fact significant trends or real possibilties, I will rethink my position. Until then I can only see these scenarios as bogeymen.

I can...but I'll just settle for pointing out that the manufacturing jobs (read marbles) have already been taken overseas.

[SkinBasket]

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1377/1273759828_952ce6ed47.jpg
PatPong?

[MJZiggy]

I'm just still pissed I don't get to go to Costa Rica.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm just still pissed I don't get to go to Costa Rica.


I'd take ya, but 9's a crowd.

[hoosier]

I'm not going to waste much time blogging while I sit here in thailand, but I am going to make this post.....there is exaxtly ONE hospital here that I would consider going to for treatment. I enjoy myself here, but using it as a model or example in any arguement automatically diminishes the entire arguement in my eyes.

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

I take it Thailand doesn't figure among the places you'd move to if you decide you're fed up with tax rates in the US? :lol:

[Scott Campbell]

Wouldn't that be nice. All the economic underachievers would finally get a fair chance to show the world what they really got.

[HowardRoark]

Look, if an operation costs 50K here, and 25K there.....

Why the price disparity?

And as a follow up, you seem to be a very eager proponent of free markets in medicine….go to Thailand!!! It’s cheaper!!! Why do we hear over and over nowadays that going AWAY from free markets is the answer?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

They keep talking about leaving....stop teasing us. Just go.


Like she did?

Yes.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

CAPS....









Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

1. Good candidates...right. Please show some proof of that. Otherwise it is just more of your bullshit.

2. Med schools easier. Right. PA programs may have more applicants..again some proof please.

3. People choosing PA over doctor. Right. Sure they are. This is ludicrous. To compare the roll and salary of a PA to a physician is hilarious.

4. Skin. Man, you can't even follow along. I never said he wasn't classy enough to roll with applicants...clearly he is...as he stated he knew many. Try and follow along...the folks he knows may be classy, but not smart enough or have the grades.

5. Punch me. LOL. Wow. you are showing your class. And, i would be glad to let you punch me...as there would be nothing more hilarious than watching you go jail on an assualt and battery charge. I'm sure your future employers will love that when they run a background check and discover you are a new felon. Good times.

Not to mention the time, money and aggravation it will cost you since it is also a tort, which means I can sue you for damages.

1) I'm disputing your claim which you provided zero sources?

2) There are a lot more doctors than PAs. Also, a lot more medical programs than PA programs. Look it up. I have very good knowledge of the subject as my girlfriend is in a top 15 PA program and also applied and was accepted to many medical schools. Maybe for the very top level of medical schools yes, but for most... no way is it even comparable. You don't need very good grades at all to get into medical school. Good luck getting into a PA program without first rate grades.

3) That's funny because all of the ladies' friends all chose to be PAs over doctors. Clearly doctors appreciate them or the job wouldn't exist. Also, would it be money magazines #1 field to go into if it weren't popular and important? Sure, salary isn't as high because the doctor is always the boss. Go to a hospital and see what kind of income the docs make.. Not as much as you'd think. Private practice is where the $ is. Again though, since they essentially are a doctor (they can write perscriptions, etc, most people go to see a PA for checkups, PAs can do a large amount of surgeries, etc), I don't really think your statement holds any water. The role is very, very similiar except the PAs actually take care of the patients. No one compared the salary except yourself...

4. You said smart doctors don't roll with his type. Are you calling him dumb? How many doctors do you roll with? Please son... Just because both of your parents were doctors doesn't mean you're smart enough to be one or you would be. Your shit stinks as much as anybodies.

5. Ok big guy. That's really manly of you. I bet back in whitefish bay when you were clocked in the dome during high school you went and cried to your doc folks as well.

:oops: :roll:

You have lost. Face it.

1. Zero sources. Wrong. I provided 3 right away. It isn't my fault that you jump in midway. That is pretty typical of you.

So, that is point one that you are wrong.

2. med vs. pa programs. Who was arguing the #. As for Money magazine...that isn't what you are saying. They choose by need, etc. No one is disputing the need for PAs or nurses..or doctors.

RIGHT. I'M SAYING PLENTY OF QUALIFIED PEOPLE WITH BRAINS CHOOSE BEING A PA OVER A DOCTOR BECAUSE THEY'RE MORE CONCERNED WITH HELPING PEOPLE THAN MAKING THE BIG BUCKS. MY GF IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

You dont' need good grades to get into med school. Right. Then, maybe you should explain to Skin's friends that couldn't get in that they must be complete losers.

MAYBE THE FLUNKED OUT OR CHANGED THEIR MINDS? I HAVE NO IDEA. FACTS ARE FACTS. THERE ARE FAR MORE MEDICAL PROGRAMS THAN PA PROGRAMS, SO BY VIRTUE OF LIMITED SPOTS, IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO GET INTO A SCHOOL. TO GET INTO A REALLY HIGH END TOP 15 MEDICAL SCHOOL IS PROBABLY HARDER, THOUGH.


That is just so ludicrous that it makes you even appear more stupid..which i thought wasn't possible.

REALLY? DO THE HOMEWORK... HAVE YOU APPLIED TO ANY MEDICAL SCHOOLS LATELY? HOW ABOUT PA SCHOOLS? I'VE GONE THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS WITH MY GIRLFRIEND. TYPICAL LIBERAL SPEAKING OF WICH HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE.

PA programs..like which ones. Grad or just the ones that require 2 years of schooling. LOL

UHHH... OTHER THAN MADISON WHAT PA PROGRAMS DON'T GIVE YOU A MASTERS? PA IS AN UNDERGRAD IN TYPICALLY BIOLOGY/CHEM/PREMED THAN TWO YEARS OF THE SAME CLASSES DOCTORS TAKE.

FUNNY STORY ACTUALLY. AT ROSALIND FRANKLIN, A TOP 20 MEDICAL AND PA SCHOOL IN GENERAL MEDICINE, THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE ALL COCKY DOUCHES. IRONICALLY, THE TOP 10% ON THE LAST EXAM WAS ALL PA STUDENTS. THE TEACHER, A PA, POINTED IT OUT BECAUSE THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE DOUCHES.


There are currently about 140 plus med schools...and, about 90 PA programs offering masters level.



Salary: Dude. Don't make me laugh. The worst doctors make at least 50% more than a PA..taking out ambulatory from the equation. Most PAs top out in the 90s. Most doctors aren't in the low paying fields like internal medicine or pediatrics.which max out over 200K. The lowest average max out is ambulatory at 150K.

NO SHIT. WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SALARY? ONLY YOU. I SAID ITS NOT COMPARABLE. I ALSO SAID A DOCTOR IN A HOSPITAL ISN'T EARNING AS MUCH AS YOU THINK. AND THE 200K IN AVERAGE DEBT AT 8% (TODAY, WAIT UNTIL ITS 15% 5 YEARS FROM NOW WITH THE WAY CREDIT IS) COMPOUNDS AWFULLY QUICKLY.

BTW, PAS DON'T HAVE MALPRACTICE INSURANCE EITHER. THEY'RE COVERED BY THEIR DOCTORS. THAT IS A GOOD CHUNK OF THE DOCTORS EARNINGS AS WELL.

GOOD PA'S START AT 90S DEPENDING WHAT THEY'RE IN AND WHERE THEY WENT TO SCHOOL, HOW OLD THEY ARE, ETC. MY GIRLFRIEND HAS TALKED WITH CONSOLERS AND MY STEP MOM IS AN ADMIN AT A MILWAUKEE HOSPITAL, AND THEY BOTH AGREE SHE CAN GET ABOUT 80 IN GENERAL MEDICINE STARTING. SHE WANTS TO DO SURGERY, WHERE SHE CAN GET 150K WITH EXPERIENCE. PRIVATE PRACTICE PAS THAT SPECIALIZE IN SOMETHING CAN EASILY BILL OUT 75-100 BUCKS AN HOUR. DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON TRAVELING PAS AND THE 300 THEY CAN BILL AN HOUR.

You really shouldn't talk about things you know very little. I can list 50 physicians that i know personally..from ages 35-70.

WELL, THATS GOOD, BUT YOU JUST SERVED ABOVE.

Role: No one goes to see a PA for primary care. They go to a doctor who has a PA on staff. No PA can work on their own. The role is similar to a hygenist and dentist.

ITS NOT AT ALL SIMILIAR TO A HYGENIST. YOU'RE SUCH A DUMBASS IF YOU THINK THATS TRUE. GO TO ANY AURURA FACILITY WITH A COLD... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A DERMATOLOGIST IN MILWAUKEE... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A PODIATRIST... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. SHUT THE FUCK UP MAN, THAT IS BEYOND RETARDED.

Surgey: LOL. No pa can perform surgery. They assist in surgery and they do pre and post op care.

SURGICAL ASSISTANTS ARE COMPLETELY TRAINED TO COMPLETE SURGERIES. WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? PA != NURSE. PA IS A STRIPPED DOWN DOCTOR.

Scripts: LOL No pa can write a prescription.

THATS FUNNY. ITS MY UNDERSTANDING PA'S IN SOME STATES AND FIELDS CAN WRITE ALL OF THEIR PERSCRIPTIONS, AND MUST A VERY SMALL FRACTION OF THEM SIGNED OFF BY A DOCTOR AT THE END OF A PERIOD OF TIME (LIKE A MONTH)

DO YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR ARE YOU JUST MAKING THIS UP?!?! IT'S A LOAD OF BULL... EVERY PA WITH A MASTERS DEGREE CAN WRITE PERSCRIPTIONS AS FAR AS I KNOW. THERE MAY BE SOME RARE EXCEPTIONS, BUT THAT IS NOT USUALLY THE CASE.

You just have proven how little you know about the field.

SEE ABOVE. YOU'RE SO WRONG ITS LAUGHABLE BROHAM.

3: Ladies? What does that prove or mean. Women choose careers for many reasons. However, there are equal amounts of women in med school now. And, who knows why some would choose PA or Nurse instead..if grades arent' the issue. Perhaps they like the less school and less hours so they can be home with their family.

I WAS REFERENCING ALL OF MY GIRLFRIENDS FRIENDS AT RFUMS. MANY ARE MEN AS WELL. PA IS A VERY POPULAR CHOICE NOW. VERY HIGH IN DEMAND..



4. Skin. Wow, now you get the joke. More importantly...why are you defending him? Is he incapable of doing it for himself?




5. Docs...as noted...prolly at least 50 that i can immediately count. From plastic surgeons, radiologists, shrinks, urologists, etc. Pretty much the gamut.


THATS GOOD. I KNOW ABOUT 20 PEOPLE WHO WILL BE PAS NEXT YEAR, SO I FEEL QUITE QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ON THE SUBJECT.

6. Smart enough. You would be wrong. My test scores prove otherwise. As would recs from those docs who know me. More importantly, i never had any interest in the field..nor did my parents ever want their children to enter that field.

7. Manly. Well, that just shows your maturity level and your concepts of manhood.

P.S. I didn't grow up in Whitefolks Bay. Second, i didn't get into fights. I was too smart and centered to get into fights. My god, only idiots are fighting in high school. And, those that are in college that are doing so..or thinking about it...morons.

TY, TY, TY... IF YOU ACTED HALF AS COCKY IN REAL LIFE AS YOU DO ON THESE BOARDS, YOU'D GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE DAILY. FACTS ARE FACTS DUDE.


1. Schools. Until you show the number of applicants for each type..your argument is bs.

2. Schools. There are 90 offering grad programs. There are around 135 total...that means there are programs that are offering PA that don't offer masters. Buhbye.

3. helping people. OH, i get it. YOu get to determine what exaclty is helping people. :roll:

4. Salary. It is relevant regarding the choice. As for salary. Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. I gave you averages. Go look at the Bureau of Labor Stats. I don't think you have any clue what docs are making. After 7-10 years most are making well into the 400-700K range.

And, you are such an idiot. Who the fuck works for a hospital. Practically none. Hospitals don't staff anymore. They outsource the work to physician groups. You really have no idea how it works.

As for your 90k starting. Not according the the Bureau of Labor.

Sure it is popular..just like Nursing and being a doctor. There is demand for anyone in the healthcare field..we have an aging society. Is this news to you.

5. PAs you know. Right, the limited time you've been in florida with them qualifies you. :oops:

6. Franklin. LOL That is a bottom tiered med school. :oops:

7. Malpractice. Wrong. A doc in primary may cover a PA..ooh, 600 a year for basic 100-300k coverage. But, very few docs are coving PAs in high risk fields.

I'm not going to continue because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. No PA can write scripts without doctor oversite..be it in person, telecom or regular consultation and no PA performs surgery...unless you are counting minor surgery performed under local.

[Partial]

CAPS...



CAPS....









Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

1. Good candidates...right. Please show some proof of that. Otherwise it is just more of your bullshit.

2. Med schools easier. Right. PA programs may have more applicants..again some proof please.

3. People choosing PA over doctor. Right. Sure they are. This is ludicrous. To compare the roll and salary of a PA to a physician is hilarious.

4. Skin. Man, you can't even follow along. I never said he wasn't classy enough to roll with applicants...clearly he is...as he stated he knew many. Try and follow along...the folks he knows may be classy, but not smart enough or have the grades.

5. Punch me. LOL. Wow. you are showing your class. And, i would be glad to let you punch me...as there would be nothing more hilarious than watching you go jail on an assualt and battery charge. I'm sure your future employers will love that when they run a background check and discover you are a new felon. Good times.

Not to mention the time, money and aggravation it will cost you since it is also a tort, which means I can sue you for damages.

1) I'm disputing your claim which you provided zero sources?

2) There are a lot more doctors than PAs. Also, a lot more medical programs than PA programs. Look it up. I have very good knowledge of the subject as my girlfriend is in a top 15 PA program and also applied and was accepted to many medical schools. Maybe for the very top level of medical schools yes, but for most... no way is it even comparable. You don't need very good grades at all to get into medical school. Good luck getting into a PA program without first rate grades.

3) That's funny because all of the ladies' friends all chose to be PAs over doctors. Clearly doctors appreciate them or the job wouldn't exist. Also, would it be money magazines #1 field to go into if it weren't popular and important? Sure, salary isn't as high because the doctor is always the boss. Go to a hospital and see what kind of income the docs make.. Not as much as you'd think. Private practice is where the $ is. Again though, since they essentially are a doctor (they can write perscriptions, etc, most people go to see a PA for checkups, PAs can do a large amount of surgeries, etc), I don't really think your statement holds any water. The role is very, very similiar except the PAs actually take care of the patients. No one compared the salary except yourself...

4. You said smart doctors don't roll with his type. Are you calling him dumb? How many doctors do you roll with? Please son... Just because both of your parents were doctors doesn't mean you're smart enough to be one or you would be. Your shit stinks as much as anybodies.

5. Ok big guy. That's really manly of you. I bet back in whitefish bay when you were clocked in the dome during high school you went and cried to your doc folks as well.

:oops: :roll:

You have lost. Face it.

1. Zero sources. Wrong. I provided 3 right away. It isn't my fault that you jump in midway. That is pretty typical of you.

So, that is point one that you are wrong.

2. med vs. pa programs. Who was arguing the #. As for Money magazine...that isn't what you are saying. They choose by need, etc. No one is disputing the need for PAs or nurses..or doctors.

RIGHT. I'M SAYING PLENTY OF QUALIFIED PEOPLE WITH BRAINS CHOOSE BEING A PA OVER A DOCTOR BECAUSE THEY'RE MORE CONCERNED WITH HELPING PEOPLE THAN MAKING THE BIG BUCKS. MY GF IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

You dont' need good grades to get into med school. Right. Then, maybe you should explain to Skin's friends that couldn't get in that they must be complete losers.

MAYBE THE FLUNKED OUT OR CHANGED THEIR MINDS? I HAVE NO IDEA. FACTS ARE FACTS. THERE ARE FAR MORE MEDICAL PROGRAMS THAN PA PROGRAMS, SO BY VIRTUE OF LIMITED SPOTS, IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO GET INTO A SCHOOL. TO GET INTO A REALLY HIGH END TOP 15 MEDICAL SCHOOL IS PROBABLY HARDER, THOUGH.


That is just so ludicrous that it makes you even appear more stupid..which i thought wasn't possible.

REALLY? DO THE HOMEWORK... HAVE YOU APPLIED TO ANY MEDICAL SCHOOLS LATELY? HOW ABOUT PA SCHOOLS? I'VE GONE THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS WITH MY GIRLFRIEND. TYPICAL LIBERAL SPEAKING OF WICH HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE.

PA programs..like which ones. Grad or just the ones that require 2 years of schooling. LOL

UHHH... OTHER THAN MADISON WHAT PA PROGRAMS DON'T GIVE YOU A MASTERS? PA IS AN UNDERGRAD IN TYPICALLY BIOLOGY/CHEM/PREMED THAN TWO YEARS OF THE SAME CLASSES DOCTORS TAKE.

FUNNY STORY ACTUALLY. AT ROSALIND FRANKLIN, A TOP 20 MEDICAL AND PA SCHOOL IN GENERAL MEDICINE, THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE ALL COCKY DOUCHES. IRONICALLY, THE TOP 10% ON THE LAST EXAM WAS ALL PA STUDENTS. THE TEACHER, A PA, POINTED IT OUT BECAUSE THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE DOUCHES.


There are currently about 140 plus med schools...and, about 90 PA programs offering masters level.



Salary: Dude. Don't make me laugh. The worst doctors make at least 50% more than a PA..taking out ambulatory from the equation. Most PAs top out in the 90s. Most doctors aren't in the low paying fields like internal medicine or pediatrics.which max out over 200K. The lowest average max out is ambulatory at 150K.

NO SHIT. WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SALARY? ONLY YOU. I SAID ITS NOT COMPARABLE. I ALSO SAID A DOCTOR IN A HOSPITAL ISN'T EARNING AS MUCH AS YOU THINK. AND THE 200K IN AVERAGE DEBT AT 8% (TODAY, WAIT UNTIL ITS 15% 5 YEARS FROM NOW WITH THE WAY CREDIT IS) COMPOUNDS AWFULLY QUICKLY.

BTW, PAS DON'T HAVE MALPRACTICE INSURANCE EITHER. THEY'RE COVERED BY THEIR DOCTORS. THAT IS A GOOD CHUNK OF THE DOCTORS EARNINGS AS WELL.

GOOD PA'S START AT 90S DEPENDING WHAT THEY'RE IN AND WHERE THEY WENT TO SCHOOL, HOW OLD THEY ARE, ETC. MY GIRLFRIEND HAS TALKED WITH CONSOLERS AND MY STEP MOM IS AN ADMIN AT A MILWAUKEE HOSPITAL, AND THEY BOTH AGREE SHE CAN GET ABOUT 80 IN GENERAL MEDICINE STARTING. SHE WANTS TO DO SURGERY, WHERE SHE CAN GET 150K WITH EXPERIENCE. PRIVATE PRACTICE PAS THAT SPECIALIZE IN SOMETHING CAN EASILY BILL OUT 75-100 BUCKS AN HOUR. DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON TRAVELING PAS AND THE 300 THEY CAN BILL AN HOUR.

You really shouldn't talk about things you know very little. I can list 50 physicians that i know personally..from ages 35-70.

WELL, THATS GOOD, BUT YOU JUST SERVED ABOVE.

Role: No one goes to see a PA for primary care. They go to a doctor who has a PA on staff. No PA can work on their own. The role is similar to a hygenist and dentist.

ITS NOT AT ALL SIMILIAR TO A HYGENIST. YOU'RE SUCH A DUMBASS IF YOU THINK THATS TRUE. GO TO ANY AURURA FACILITY WITH A COLD... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A DERMATOLOGIST IN MILWAUKEE... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A PODIATRIST... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. SHUT THE FUCK UP MAN, THAT IS BEYOND RETARDED.

Surgey: LOL. No pa can perform surgery. They assist in surgery and they do pre and post op care.

SURGICAL ASSISTANTS ARE COMPLETELY TRAINED TO COMPLETE SURGERIES. WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? PA != NURSE. PA IS A STRIPPED DOWN DOCTOR.

Scripts: LOL No pa can write a prescription.

THATS FUNNY. ITS MY UNDERSTANDING PA'S IN SOME STATES AND FIELDS CAN WRITE ALL OF THEIR PERSCRIPTIONS, AND MUST A VERY SMALL FRACTION OF THEM SIGNED OFF BY A DOCTOR AT THE END OF A PERIOD OF TIME (LIKE A MONTH)

DO YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR ARE YOU JUST MAKING THIS UP?!?! IT'S A LOAD OF BULL... EVERY PA WITH A MASTERS DEGREE CAN WRITE PERSCRIPTIONS AS FAR AS I KNOW. THERE MAY BE SOME RARE EXCEPTIONS, BUT THAT IS NOT USUALLY THE CASE.

You just have proven how little you know about the field.

SEE ABOVE. YOU'RE SO WRONG ITS LAUGHABLE BROHAM.

3: Ladies? What does that prove or mean. Women choose careers for many reasons. However, there are equal amounts of women in med school now. And, who knows why some would choose PA or Nurse instead..if grades arent' the issue. Perhaps they like the less school and less hours so they can be home with their family.

I WAS REFERENCING ALL OF MY GIRLFRIENDS FRIENDS AT RFUMS. MANY ARE MEN AS WELL. PA IS A VERY POPULAR CHOICE NOW. VERY HIGH IN DEMAND..



4. Skin. Wow, now you get the joke. More importantly...why are you defending him? Is he incapable of doing it for himself?




5. Docs...as noted...prolly at least 50 that i can immediately count. From plastic surgeons, radiologists, shrinks, urologists, etc. Pretty much the gamut.


THATS GOOD. I KNOW ABOUT 20 PEOPLE WHO WILL BE PAS NEXT YEAR, SO I FEEL QUITE QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ON THE SUBJECT.

6. Smart enough. You would be wrong. My test scores prove otherwise. As would recs from those docs who know me. More importantly, i never had any interest in the field..nor did my parents ever want their children to enter that field.

7. Manly. Well, that just shows your maturity level and your concepts of manhood.

P.S. I didn't grow up in Whitefolks Bay. Second, i didn't get into fights. I was too smart and centered to get into fights. My god, only idiots are fighting in high school. And, those that are in college that are doing so..or thinking about it...morons.

TY, TY, TY... IF YOU ACTED HALF AS COCKY IN REAL LIFE AS YOU DO ON THESE BOARDS, YOU'D GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE DAILY. FACTS ARE FACTS DUDE.


1. Schools. Until you show the number of applicants for each type..your argument is bs.


2. Schools. There are 90 offering grad programs. There are around 135 total...that means there are programs that are offering PA that don't offer masters. Buhbye.

YOU MAY NOT GET A MASTERS, BUT THEY ALL REQUIRE MORE THAN 4 YEARS OF EDUCATION, AND 2 YEARS IS NEARLY IDENTICAL TO THAT OF A DOCTOR. BUH BYE YOURSELF.


3. helping people. OH, i get it. YOu get to determine what exaclty is helping people. :roll:

????


4. Salary. It is relevant regarding the choice. As for salary. Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. I gave you averages. Go look at the Bureau of Labor Stats. I don't think you have any clue what docs are making. After 7-10 years most are making well into the 400-700K range.


400 K ISN'T THAT MUCH WHEN YOU'RE PAYING 200 GRAND + EASILY IN INSURANCE COSTS

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0843/is_2_28/ai_84236557



And, you are such an idiot. Who the fuck works for a hospital. Practically none. Hospitals don't staff anymore. They outsource the work to physician groups. You really have no idea how it works.

As for your 90k starting. Not according the the Bureau of Labor.


AGAIN, IT DEPENDS ON MANY SITUATIONS. NO ONE SAID THEY AVERAGE THAT. IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THEY GO INTO AND WHERE.

I KNOW A CHIEF OF MEDICINE PERSONALLY AT A HOSPITAL THAT PAYS PAS 80 AN HOUR. THAT IS 160 A YEAR. ALMOST AS MUCH AS A DOCTOR AFTER YOU TAKE OUT THE 200K IN INSURANCE COSTS!!!


Sure it is popular..just like Nursing and being a doctor. There is demand for anyone in the healthcare field..we have an aging society. Is this news to you.



5. PAs you know. Right, the limited time you've been in florida with them qualifies you. :oops:

IN FLORIDA? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?


6. Franklin. LOL That is a bottom tiered med school. :oops:

IT THE #14 PA SCHOOL, THOUGH. IT'S MIDDLE OF THE PACK OF MEDICAL SCHOOLS. AGAIN, DON'T GET YOUR POINT. THERE ARE WAY MORE MEDICAL SCHOOLS THAN PA SCHOOLS. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

7. Malpractice. Wrong. A doc in primary may cover a PA..ooh, 600 a year for basic 100-300k coverage. But, very few docs are coving PAs in high risk fields.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0843/is_2_28/ai_84236557

THAT IS BASIC COVERAGE. I'VE HEARD OF PEOPLE PAYING FOR MORE FOR INSURANCE. BUH BYE

I'm not going to continue because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. No PA can write scripts without doctor oversite..be it in person, telecom or regular consultation and no PA performs surgery...unless you are counting minor surgery performed under local. :oops: :roll:


YOU CHANGE YOUR STORY AGAIN. BEFORE, NO PA COULD WRITE THEM PERIOD. NOW, THEY REQUIRE DOCTOR OVERSITE. NO SHIT. THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. THEY NEED A CERTAIN AMOUNT APPROVED PER MONTH.

MINOR SURGERY IS STILL SURGERY. AGAIN, CHANGING YOUR STORY. YOU GOT SERVED.

DOES IT HURT TO BE SO WRONG? YOU CHANGE YOUR STORY ALL THE TIME. YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT.

[Scott Campbell]

I think that's why she left.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

CAPS...



CAPS....









Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

The flaw in your logic is that the good candidates may be leaving to go elsewhere perhaps, and the candidates applying are not as strong. Most medical schools are far easier to get in then PA programs (other than the very elite ones), and many good doctor candidates are becoming PAs because you get to actually help people and do what a doctor does essentially without the overhead of actually running the business.

That's a very cocky statement to make about Skin. He is not classy enough to roll with people who apply to medical school? I'd love to meet you and punch you in the face for being such a pompous douche.

1. Good candidates...right. Please show some proof of that. Otherwise it is just more of your bullshit.

2. Med schools easier. Right. PA programs may have more applicants..again some proof please.

3. People choosing PA over doctor. Right. Sure they are. This is ludicrous. To compare the roll and salary of a PA to a physician is hilarious.

4. Skin. Man, you can't even follow along. I never said he wasn't classy enough to roll with applicants...clearly he is...as he stated he knew many. Try and follow along...the folks he knows may be classy, but not smart enough or have the grades.

5. Punch me. LOL. Wow. you are showing your class. And, i would be glad to let you punch me...as there would be nothing more hilarious than watching you go jail on an assualt and battery charge. I'm sure your future employers will love that when they run a background check and discover you are a new felon. Good times.

Not to mention the time, money and aggravation it will cost you since it is also a tort, which means I can sue you for damages.

1) I'm disputing your claim which you provided zero sources?

2) There are a lot more doctors than PAs. Also, a lot more medical programs than PA programs. Look it up. I have very good knowledge of the subject as my girlfriend is in a top 15 PA program and also applied and was accepted to many medical schools. Maybe for the very top level of medical schools yes, but for most... no way is it even comparable. You don't need very good grades at all to get into medical school. Good luck getting into a PA program without first rate grades.

3) That's funny because all of the ladies' friends all chose to be PAs over doctors. Clearly doctors appreciate them or the job wouldn't exist. Also, would it be money magazines #1 field to go into if it weren't popular and important? Sure, salary isn't as high because the doctor is always the boss. Go to a hospital and see what kind of income the docs make.. Not as much as you'd think. Private practice is where the $ is. Again though, since they essentially are a doctor (they can write perscriptions, etc, most people go to see a PA for checkups, PAs can do a large amount of surgeries, etc), I don't really think your statement holds any water. The role is very, very similiar except the PAs actually take care of the patients. No one compared the salary except yourself...

4. You said smart doctors don't roll with his type. Are you calling him dumb? How many doctors do you roll with? Please son... Just because both of your parents were doctors doesn't mean you're smart enough to be one or you would be. Your shit stinks as much as anybodies.

5. Ok big guy. That's really manly of you. I bet back in whitefish bay when you were clocked in the dome during high school you went and cried to your doc folks as well.

:oops: :roll:

You have lost. Face it.

1. Zero sources. Wrong. I provided 3 right away. It isn't my fault that you jump in midway. That is pretty typical of you.

So, that is point one that you are wrong.

2. med vs. pa programs. Who was arguing the #. As for Money magazine...that isn't what you are saying. They choose by need, etc. No one is disputing the need for PAs or nurses..or doctors.

RIGHT. I'M SAYING PLENTY OF QUALIFIED PEOPLE WITH BRAINS CHOOSE BEING A PA OVER A DOCTOR BECAUSE THEY'RE MORE CONCERNED WITH HELPING PEOPLE THAN MAKING THE BIG BUCKS. MY GF IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

You dont' need good grades to get into med school. Right. Then, maybe you should explain to Skin's friends that couldn't get in that they must be complete losers.

MAYBE THE FLUNKED OUT OR CHANGED THEIR MINDS? I HAVE NO IDEA. FACTS ARE FACTS. THERE ARE FAR MORE MEDICAL PROGRAMS THAN PA PROGRAMS, SO BY VIRTUE OF LIMITED SPOTS, IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO GET INTO A SCHOOL. TO GET INTO A REALLY HIGH END TOP 15 MEDICAL SCHOOL IS PROBABLY HARDER, THOUGH.


That is just so ludicrous that it makes you even appear more stupid..which i thought wasn't possible.

REALLY? DO THE HOMEWORK... HAVE YOU APPLIED TO ANY MEDICAL SCHOOLS LATELY? HOW ABOUT PA SCHOOLS? I'VE GONE THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS WITH MY GIRLFRIEND. TYPICAL LIBERAL SPEAKING OF WICH HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE.

PA programs..like which ones. Grad or just the ones that require 2 years of schooling. LOL

UHHH... OTHER THAN MADISON WHAT PA PROGRAMS DON'T GIVE YOU A MASTERS? PA IS AN UNDERGRAD IN TYPICALLY BIOLOGY/CHEM/PREMED THAN TWO YEARS OF THE SAME CLASSES DOCTORS TAKE.

FUNNY STORY ACTUALLY. AT ROSALIND FRANKLIN, A TOP 20 MEDICAL AND PA SCHOOL IN GENERAL MEDICINE, THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE ALL COCKY DOUCHES. IRONICALLY, THE TOP 10% ON THE LAST EXAM WAS ALL PA STUDENTS. THE TEACHER, A PA, POINTED IT OUT BECAUSE THE MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE DOUCHES.


There are currently about 140 plus med schools...and, about 90 PA programs offering masters level.



Salary: Dude. Don't make me laugh. The worst doctors make at least 50% more than a PA..taking out ambulatory from the equation. Most PAs top out in the 90s. Most doctors aren't in the low paying fields like internal medicine or pediatrics.which max out over 200K. The lowest average max out is ambulatory at 150K.

NO SHIT. WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SALARY? ONLY YOU. I SAID ITS NOT COMPARABLE. I ALSO SAID A DOCTOR IN A HOSPITAL ISN'T EARNING AS MUCH AS YOU THINK. AND THE 200K IN AVERAGE DEBT AT 8% (TODAY, WAIT UNTIL ITS 15% 5 YEARS FROM NOW WITH THE WAY CREDIT IS) COMPOUNDS AWFULLY QUICKLY.

BTW, PAS DON'T HAVE MALPRACTICE INSURANCE EITHER. THEY'RE COVERED BY THEIR DOCTORS. THAT IS A GOOD CHUNK OF THE DOCTORS EARNINGS AS WELL.

GOOD PA'S START AT 90S DEPENDING WHAT THEY'RE IN AND WHERE THEY WENT TO SCHOOL, HOW OLD THEY ARE, ETC. MY GIRLFRIEND HAS TALKED WITH CONSOLERS AND MY STEP MOM IS AN ADMIN AT A MILWAUKEE HOSPITAL, AND THEY BOTH AGREE SHE CAN GET ABOUT 80 IN GENERAL MEDICINE STARTING. SHE WANTS TO DO SURGERY, WHERE SHE CAN GET 150K WITH EXPERIENCE. PRIVATE PRACTICE PAS THAT SPECIALIZE IN SOMETHING CAN EASILY BILL OUT 75-100 BUCKS AN HOUR. DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON TRAVELING PAS AND THE 300 THEY CAN BILL AN HOUR.

You really shouldn't talk about things you know very little. I can list 50 physicians that i know personally..from ages 35-70.

WELL, THATS GOOD, BUT YOU JUST SERVED ABOVE.

Role: No one goes to see a PA for primary care. They go to a doctor who has a PA on staff. No PA can work on their own. The role is similar to a hygenist and dentist.

ITS NOT AT ALL SIMILIAR TO A HYGENIST. YOU'RE SUCH A DUMBASS IF YOU THINK THATS TRUE. GO TO ANY AURURA FACILITY WITH A COLD... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A DERMATOLOGIST IN MILWAUKEE... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. GO TO A PODIATRIST... YOU'RE SEEING A PA. SHUT THE FUCK UP MAN, THAT IS BEYOND RETARDED.

Surgey: LOL. No pa can perform surgery. They assist in surgery and they do pre and post op care.

SURGICAL ASSISTANTS ARE COMPLETELY TRAINED TO COMPLETE SURGERIES. WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? PA != NURSE. PA IS A STRIPPED DOWN DOCTOR.

Scripts: LOL No pa can write a prescription.

THATS FUNNY. ITS MY UNDERSTANDING PA'S IN SOME STATES AND FIELDS CAN WRITE ALL OF THEIR PERSCRIPTIONS, AND MUST A VERY SMALL FRACTION OF THEM SIGNED OFF BY A DOCTOR AT THE END OF A PERIOD OF TIME (LIKE A MONTH)

DO YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR ARE YOU JUST MAKING THIS UP?!?! IT'S A LOAD OF BULL... EVERY PA WITH A MASTERS DEGREE CAN WRITE PERSCRIPTIONS AS FAR AS I KNOW. THERE MAY BE SOME RARE EXCEPTIONS, BUT THAT IS NOT USUALLY THE CASE.

You just have proven how little you know about the field.

SEE ABOVE. YOU'RE SO WRONG ITS LAUGHABLE BROHAM.

3: Ladies? What does that prove or mean. Women choose careers for many reasons. However, there are equal amounts of women in med school now. And, who knows why some would choose PA or Nurse instead..if grades arent' the issue. Perhaps they like the less school and less hours so they can be home with their family.

I WAS REFERENCING ALL OF MY GIRLFRIENDS FRIENDS AT RFUMS. MANY ARE MEN AS WELL. PA IS A VERY POPULAR CHOICE NOW. VERY HIGH IN DEMAND..



4. Skin. Wow, now you get the joke. More importantly...why are you defending him? Is he incapable of doing it for himself?




5. Docs...as noted...prolly at least 50 that i can immediately count. From plastic surgeons, radiologists, shrinks, urologists, etc. Pretty much the gamut.


THATS GOOD. I KNOW ABOUT 20 PEOPLE WHO WILL BE PAS NEXT YEAR, SO I FEEL QUITE QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ON THE SUBJECT.

6. Smart enough. You would be wrong. My test scores prove otherwise. As would recs from those docs who know me. More importantly, i never had any interest in the field..nor did my parents ever want their children to enter that field.

7. Manly. Well, that just shows your maturity level and your concepts of manhood.

P.S. I didn't grow up in Whitefolks Bay. Second, i didn't get into fights. I was too smart and centered to get into fights. My god, only idiots are fighting in high school. And, those that are in college that are doing so..or thinking about it...morons.

TY, TY, TY... IF YOU ACTED HALF AS COCKY IN REAL LIFE AS YOU DO ON THESE BOARDS, YOU'D GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE DAILY. FACTS ARE FACTS DUDE.


1. Schools. Until you show the number of applicants for each type..your argument is bs.


2. Schools. There are 90 offering grad programs. There are around 135 total...that means there are programs that are offering PA that don't offer masters. Buhbye.

YOU MAY NOT GET A MASTERS, BUT THEY ALL REQUIRE MORE THAN 4 YEARS OF EDUCATION, AND 2 YEARS IS NEARLY IDENTICAL TO THAT OF A DOCTOR. BUH BYE YOURSELF.


3. helping people. OH, i get it. YOu get to determine what exaclty is helping people. :roll:

????


4. Salary. It is relevant regarding the choice. As for salary. Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. I gave you averages. Go look at the Bureau of Labor Stats. I don't think you have any clue what docs are making. After 7-10 years most are making well into the 400-700K range.


400 K ISN'T THAT MUCH WHEN YOU'RE PAYING 200 GRAND + EASILY IN INSURANCE COSTS

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0843/is_2_28/ai_84236557



And, you are such an idiot. Who the fuck works for a hospital. Practically none. Hospitals don't staff anymore. They outsource the work to physician groups. You really have no idea how it works.

As for your 90k starting. Not according the the Bureau of Labor.


AGAIN, IT DEPENDS ON MANY SITUATIONS. NO ONE SAID THEY AVERAGE THAT. IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THEY GO INTO AND WHERE.

I KNOW A CHIEF OF MEDICINE PERSONALLY AT A HOSPITAL THAT PAYS PAS 80 AN HOUR. THAT IS 160 A YEAR. ALMOST AS MUCH AS A DOCTOR AFTER YOU TAKE OUT THE 200K IN INSURANCE COSTS!!!


Sure it is popular..just like Nursing and being a doctor. There is demand for anyone in the healthcare field..we have an aging society. Is this news to you.



5. PAs you know. Right, the limited time you've been in florida with them qualifies you. :oops:

IN FLORIDA? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?


6. Franklin. LOL That is a bottom tiered med school. :oops:

IT THE #14 PA SCHOOL, THOUGH. IT'S MIDDLE OF THE PACK OF MEDICAL SCHOOLS. AGAIN, DON'T GET YOUR POINT. THERE ARE WAY MORE MEDICAL SCHOOLS THAN PA SCHOOLS. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

7. Malpractice. Wrong. A doc in primary may cover a PA..ooh, 600 a year for basic 100-300k coverage. But, very few docs are coving PAs in high risk fields.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0843/is_2_28/ai_84236557

THAT IS BASIC COVERAGE. I'VE HEARD OF PEOPLE PAYING FOR MORE FOR INSURANCE. BUH BYE

I'm not going to continue because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. No PA can write scripts without doctor oversite..be it in person, telecom or regular consultation and no PA performs surgery...unless you are counting minor surgery performed under local. :oops: :roll:


YOU CHANGE YOUR STORY AGAIN. BEFORE, NO PA COULD WRITE THEM PERIOD. NOW, THEY REQUIRE DOCTOR OVERSITE. NO SHIT. THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. THEY NEED A CERTAIN AMOUNT APPROVED PER MONTH.

MINOR SURGERY IS STILL SURGERY. AGAIN, CHANGING YOUR STORY. YOU GOT SERVED.

DOES IT HURT TO BE SO WRONG? YOU CHANGE YOUR STORY ALL THE TIME. YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT.

NO, you suggested they could just open up a clinic and write scripts.

Surgery: Sorry, but when somebody says surgery and doesnt' clearly state minor then most people are gonna think real surgery..not removing a mole.

Wrong: You mean like your med school app bs, your RM med school being top 20, your salary survey, etc.? :oops:

[Partial]

TY, show me where I said they can open their own clinics. Your inability to read is not my problem.

Surgery is surgery. I said they can perform some surgeries. Again, not my problem you interpreted open heart surgery. Learn to read. Assuming makes an ass out of you.

Salary? You said they can make as little as 400k with experience. Fine. Now subtract 200 grand in insurance. That's 200 grand.

I see ads on craigslist all the time for PAs billing at 90-120 an hour.

That is actually MORE money when all is said and done :lol:

I'm not saying thats common. I'm saying PAs is a sweet deal. That is why plenty of people are opting to do that, instead of going to medical school.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

TY, show me where I said they can open their own clinics. Your inability to read is not my problem.

Surgery is surgery. I said they can perform some surgeries. Again, not my problem you interpreted open heart surgery. Learn to read. Assuming makes an ass out of you.

Salary? You said they can make as little as 400k with experience. Fine. Now subtract 200 grand in insurance. That's 200 grand.

I see ads on craigslist all the time for PAs billing at 90-120 an hour.

That is actually MORE money when all is said and done :lol:

I'm not saying thats common. I'm saying PAs is a sweet deal. That is why plenty of people are opting to do that, instead of going to medical school.

Clinics: you implied it by saying that if you go to Aurora you are seeing PAs..as if there are no doctors.

Surgery: you stated they can do a
large amount of surgeries. That is laughable. Now it is some surgeries.

Salary: Most doctors arent' paying half into insurance. Get serious.

Craigslist: Hmm, that tells me that someone isn't employed. LOL Charging an hourly rate on craigslist is hardly something for you to use. People who arent' fully employed always try to charge a high hourly rate. Guess those people arent' getting all the work they need as they are on craigslist.

Also, now they are running their own business..something you touted they wouldn't be doing. That means they have to bill, they have to advertise, they have to pay their own malpractice, and pay TAXES like any other business, have to keep track of business expenses, etc. :oops:

Furthermore PAs and NPs are seeing their malpractice/liability costs go up as well.

Finally, only a fool would think that PAs are making more than doctors.

[Partial]

Dumbass its recruiters on craigslist.

There are plenty of small surgeries. Tons and tons. I'd argue there are far more minor surgeries than major.

I posted an article of the amount doctors are paying in. Where is your evidence other than get real? If an OBGYN is paying that, imagine how much a surgeon, etc is paying. You get real my friend.

[bobblehead]

I'm not going to waste much time blogging while I sit here in thailand, but I am going to make this post.....there is exaxtly ONE hospital here that I would consider going to for treatment. I enjoy myself here, but using it as a model or example in any arguement automatically diminishes the entire arguement in my eyes.

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

I take it Thailand doesn't figure among the places you'd move to if you decide you're fed up with tax rates in the US? :lol:

not gonna fix the quote boxes cuz i'm on a laptop, but I can go to that one hospital, so yes i could move here, i'm simply saying using foreign healthcare as an arguement is bad...I'm in a little town on the makhong river and good luck with healthcare worth a shit.

[bobblehead]

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1377/1273759828_952ce6ed47.jpg
PatPong?

that qualifies as vacationing.

[bobblehead]

Look, if an operation costs 50K here, and 25K there.....

Why the price disparity?

And as a follow up, you seem to be a very eager proponent of free markets in medicine….go to Thailand!!! It’s cheaper!!! Why do we hear over and over nowadays that going AWAY from free markets is the answer?

ty is right on this, but he is missing the point. the price desparity has to do with taking advantage of cheap labor and the US over regulating health care in every way. Propping up HMO's so they could artificially gain market share....I've been over all this before and I don't feel like typing on this laptop keyboard, but companies are going to fly you to that one hospital in thailand to save 20k, and offer you 5k to do it, they already are.

[bobblehead]

I have nothing personal against you, Ty, or any other Liberal……I am just trying to have a discussion. Frankly, the thing that strikes the most fear in me about my country is the lack of honest discussions about ideas that now permeates the air.

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

I'm not dismissing your argument because it involves Reagan, I'm questioning your logic because, frankly, it strikes me as illogical. You say you are concerned about the lack of sincere discussion between the opposing ends of the political spectrum in this country. I agree. But I would suggest that the chances for real dialogue are diminished, not increased, when we make claims that are based on poorly thought out examples or examples that appeal to the emotions. The Left is undoubtedly guilty of this as well the Right. The claim that doctors will start quitting in droves if we implement universal health care is one example of such an appeal to emotion; the story about the rich taking their marbles and going home (whether this means moving to Costa Rica or just pulling out of the market) is another such example. If you can provide real evidence that these are in fact significant trends or real possibilties, I will rethink my position. Until then I can only see these scenarios as bogeymen.

Forget about it Bobby, it's just a thought experiment. Something we used to do in our country.

At what marginal tax rate do people with capital not put that capital at risk anymore because it's not worth it anymore?

I'm not going to take the time to see how much Reagan made, that's not the point.....plug the richest actor in 1965 into the question, make up a theoretical actor!

its simply math...do i want 5.3% on a gov't no tax/no risk bond or 10% on a taxable risk investment...how much tax and risk?? do the math you have an answer.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Dumbass its recruiters on craigslist.

There are plenty of small surgeries. Tons and tons. I'd argue there are far more minor surgeries than major.

I posted an article of the amount doctors are paying in. Where is your evidence other than get real? If an OBGYN is paying that, imagine how much a surgeon, etc is paying. You get real my friend.

Dumbass? You stated the PAs were billing..that implies they are doing the billing. That isn't recruiters.

As for billing..a quick perusal on miltown craigs..shows a 60 per hour. I searched under PA and Physi Asst. Nice try. :oops:

Small surgeries? Like what? Your pediatrician doesn't perform them. Derms do a bit. What minor surgeries are there besides moles, cysts, warts, eartubes, removal of thorns, injections, etc.

You have officially lost your mind.

Malpractice: First, dipshit...that was from 02. But, let's just use your article.


West Virginia obstetricians paid an average of $75,155 in 2001, while their colleagues next door in Kentucky were charged only $41,661.

Wow. You couldn't be selectively using info could you. The 200k was for South Florida...and the article stated.


Obstetricians, neurosurgeons, emergency physicians and other high-risk specialists have absorbed the brunt of the blow.

Florida is not average..it is way more costly there. But, nice try.

Now, how about my source..how about for anesthesia specialists? Oops, premiums dropping...average in 07 was 23,500.

http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2007/10/average-malpractice-premiums-for.html

How about for Arizona?

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&subsectionID=114&articleID=54788


For family practice doctors, who were paying $18,241 annually, the rate reduction means they'll be paying $16,898 for an annual policy that buys them $1 million of liability insurance per year with a cap of three $1 million losses a year, Carland explained.

Game. Set. Match.

[HowardRoark]

Look, if an operation costs 50K here, and 25K there.....

Why the price disparity?

And as a follow up, you seem to be a very eager proponent of free markets in medicine….go to Thailand!!! It’s cheaper!!! Why do we hear over and over nowadays that going AWAY from free markets is the answer?

ty is right on this, but he is missing the point. the price desparity has to do with taking advantage of cheap labor and the US over regulating health care in every way. Propping up HMO's so they could artificially gain market share....I've been over all this before and I don't feel like typing on this laptop keyboard, but companies are going to fly you to that one hospital in thailand to save 20k, and offer you 5k to do it, they already are.

That was the point I was trying to get out of Ty. You get all the feel good Lefty talk going, but the free market keeps chugging along all over the world. Before you know it, poof!....an industry is gone. Don’t feel so good anymore….just ask all those pensioners at GM and Ford. But I’m sure it felt good to demand all that stuff from the evil oppressors back in the day though.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Look, if an operation costs 50K here, and 25K there.....

Why the price disparity?

And as a follow up, you seem to be a very eager proponent of free markets in medicine….go to Thailand!!! It’s cheaper!!! Why do we hear over and over nowadays that going AWAY from free markets is the answer?

ty is right on this, but he is missing the point. the price desparity has to do with taking advantage of cheap labor and the US over regulating health care in every way. Propping up HMO's so they could artificially gain market share....I've been over all this before and I don't feel like typing on this laptop keyboard, but companies are going to fly you to that one hospital in thailand to save 20k, and offer you 5k to do it, they already are.

That was the point I was trying to get out of Ty. You get all the feel good Lefty talk going, but the free market keeps chugging along all over the world. Before you know it, poof!....an industry is gone. Don’t feel so good anymore….just ask all those pensioners at GM and Ford. But I’m sure it felt good to demand all that stuff from the evil oppressors back in the day though.

The industry isn't gone. It is changed. Do you think that we will all be flying there for initial consultations? Do you think we will be flying there for 10k operations.

The point you miss is that there will still be doctors here..making a good living. They may not make as much, they may have to change what they do, but there won't be a loss of them.

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.

The fact is that currently, 25% of all doctors in this country weren't educated here. I see no problem with that. That is the free market. Why are you now complaining.


As for pensions: It is clear that you never took a history class. Pensions weren't solely the demand of the worker..it was started by the companies themselves in concert with the workers.

In 1949, management and the United Auto Workers were battling over the terms of their next contract. Times were good and we were all buying autos in the postwar boom, so GM management was eager to avoid a strike. Meanwhile, autoworkers lacked pensions and feared correctly that the country was still far away from adopting universal health care. These circumstances created an opportunity for a seemingly perfect bargain that came to be known as the "Treaty of Detroit."

GM jumped at a UAW proposal that, in lieu of large wage increases, would set up a pension plan and offer half-price health insurance. The short-term costs would be minimal because, as the UAW pointed out, the average GM worker then had only seven years of experience and a mere fifth were over 50. Left unconsidered was the inevitability that these workers would age, and that if GM did not put aside sufficient funds to pay for their future benefits, the next generation of GM managers and workers would be saddled with an impossible encumbrance.

ANd, leave it to you..a company apologist to blame the workers when the companies have not set aside the money to make good on their promises.

Both struck a deal. The workers fulfilled their obligation..but, let's blame them for forcing GM to make the deal.

Must be a hoot to enter a contract with you.

[HowardRoark]

[quote=Tyrone Bigguns]Look, if an operation costs 50K here, and 25K there.....

Why the price disparity?

And as a follow up, you seem to be a very eager proponent of free markets in medicine….go to Thailand!!! It’s cheaper!!! Why do we hear over and over nowadays that going AWAY from free markets is the answer?

ty is right on this, but he is missing the point. the price desparity has to do with taking advantage of cheap labor and the US over regulating health care in every way. Propping up HMO's so they could artificially gain market share....I've been over all this before and I don't feel like typing on this laptop keyboard, but companies are going to fly you to that one hospital in thailand to save 20k, and offer you 5k to do it, they already are.

That was the point I was trying to get out of Ty. You get all the feel good Lefty talk going, but the free market keeps chugging along all over the world. Before you know it, poof!....an industry is gone. Don’t feel so good anymore….just ask all those pensioners at GM and Ford. But I’m sure it felt good to demand all that stuff from the evil oppressors back in the day though.

The industry isn't gone. It is changed. Do you think that we will all be flying there for initial consultations? Do you think we will be flying there for 10k operations.

The point you miss is that there will still be doctors here..making a good living. They may not make as much, they may have to change what they do, but there won't be a loss of them.

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.

The fact is that currently, 25% of all doctors in this country weren't educated here. I see no problem with that. That is the free market. Why are you now complaining.


As for pensions: It is clear that you never took a history class. Pensions weren't solely the demand of the worker..it was started by the companies themselves in concert with the workers.

In 1949, management and the United Auto Workers were battling over the terms of their next contract. Times were good and we were all buying autos in the postwar boom, so GM management was eager to avoid a strike. Meanwhile, autoworkers lacked pensions and feared correctly that the country was still far away from adopting universal health care. These circumstances created an opportunity for a seemingly perfect bargain that came to be known as the "Treaty of Detroit."

GM jumped at a UAW proposal that, in lieu of large wage increases, would set up a pension plan and offer half-price health insurance. The short-term costs would be minimal because, as the UAW pointed out, the average GM worker then had only seven years of experience and a mere fifth were over 50. Left unconsidered was the inevitability that these workers would age, and that if GM did not put aside sufficient funds to pay for their future benefits, the next generation of GM managers and workers would be saddled with an impossible encumbrance.

ANd, leave it to you..a company apologist to blame the workers when the companies have not set aside the money to make good on their promises.

Both struck a deal. The workers fulfilled their obligation..but, let's blame them for forcing GM to make the deal.

I will let Philip flesh out your ideas in context:


Book Review

Bankrupt Nation

A Financial Journalist Explains Why All Our Debts Are Coming Due.
By Phillip Longman, New America Foundation

The Washington Post | June 15, 2008 The over-confidence in their financial futures, combined with a pattern of half-conscious decisions to avoid tough choices at the expense of tomorrow, helped ruin GM, the NYC subway and the City of San Diego.


For a married couple, talking about money can be hard. But the cost of using a credit card to put off the conversation is almost always worse. So it is with a company, a city or a country. In While America Aged, financial journalist Roger Lowenstein uses the stories of three deeply encumbered institutions -- General Motors, the New York City subway system and the City of San Diego -- as examples not only of the way most individual Americans conduct their personal finances, but also of how the country as a whole has long lived beyond its means. What these institutions have in common is a sad history of over-confidence in their financial futures, combined with a pattern of half-conscious decisions by all involved -- labor and management, politicians and voters -- to avoid tough choices at the expense of tomorrow. And, as it happens, that tomorrow is now.


Lowenstein's account of how pension debt undid General Motors is particularly telling. In 1949, management and the United Auto Workers were battling over the terms of their next contract. Times were flush as Americans flocked to buy autos in the postwar boom, so GM management was eager to avoid a strike. Meanwhile, autoworkers lacked pensions and feared correctly that the country was still far away from adopting universal health care. These circumstances created an opportunity for a seemingly perfect bargain that came to be known as the "Treaty of Detroit."


GM jumped at a UAW proposal that, in lieu of large wage increases, would set up a pension plan and offer half-price health insurance. The short-term costs would be minimal because, as the UAW pointed out, the average GM worker then had only seven years of experience and a mere fifth were over 50. Left unconsidered was the inevitability that these workers would age, and that if GM did not put aside sufficient funds to pay for their future benefits, the next generation of GM managers and workers would be saddled with an impossible encumbrance.


And that's what happened. Time and again, management and labor struck deals for more generous future benefits without taking into account the resulting liability. As actuaries warned of a long-term buildup of pension debt, GM made the debt disappear on paper by using sunny assumptions about the company's growth prospects -- assumptions that ignored the competition GM would face from foreign automakers that did not have to build huge pension and retiree health care costs into the prices of their cars. By the mid-1990s, GM was compelled to pour so much into its pension fund to make up its deficit that, with the same money, it could have acquired half of Toyota or funded the development of market-dominating, high-efficiency cars to better compete.


This pattern recurred throughout American industry during the second half of the 20th century, and it accounts for much of the decline in the country's industrial competitiveness as well as for myriad market distortions. Railroads, for example, have always been far more energy efficient than trucks and in recent years have made spectacular gains in labor efficiency. Yet among the freight railroads carry is a huge legacy of pension debt under the industry's government-administered and historically underfunded pension plan, which now costs 16 percent of payroll. Most truckers, by contrast, don't even have pensions, let alone have to carry the burden of paying for drivers long since retired. That difference in legacy cost is enough to keep a lot of freight barreling down crowded highways on energy-guzzling trucks instead of going by rail.


The federal government's pension bailout agency, the Pension Benefits Guarantee Corporation, itself faces a liability of more than $14 billion as it pays off the benefits of more than 1.3 million people whose plans have failed. Many other businesses, from Sears to IBM, have frozen their pension funds and shifted workers into defined contribution, or 401(k) plans, which require workers to bear the full risk if their investments lose value. As Teresa Ghilarducci points out in When I'm Sixty-Four, another new book on America's crumbling pension system, these trends leave the next generation of retirees in sorry shape. According to Ghilarducci, the average balance in the 401(k) plans of people approaching retirement age is just $59,000. At today's interest rates, that buys an annuity yielding less than $500 a month, with no adjustment for inflation. A report released last Thursday by the McKinsey Global Institute finds that 69 percent of Americans approaching retirement age lack sufficient funds to avoid a significant decline in their standard of living.


Lowenstein also chronicles the enormous debts now coming due for state and local pension plans. Ever wondered why it costs $2 to ride the New York City subway? Lowenstein will show you that much of the fare goes to cover rides taken in the 1960s and '70s -- that is, for unfunded pension debt. San Diego's municipal pension fund was $1.7 billion in the hole by 2005, a debt equivalent to $6,000 for every family of four in the city.


Having struggled for years to make my own writing on pension issues interesting enough for anyone to want to read, I particularly appreciate Lowenstein's use of real people to illustrate the deeper financial issues involved. Even if they sometimes contain too much detail, there is a kind of gripping, slow-motion train wreck quality to the long, sad stories Lowenstein tells about people and institutions in deep denial. And those stories certainly have a clear moral. Boiling it down to its essence on the book's final page, he concludes, "The most effective remedy -- in pensions, health care, and even in Social Security -- is to banish the credit card. Benefits should not be charged to a future generation; they should be paid for now." Sadly, though, even if we can refrain from borrowing more from our children, we will still bear the dead weight of past borrowing that now falls to us.


And who was it that pushed the envelope?

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/sept/26/1970strike.jpg

And now, who will bail out this mess?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Again, who forced gm to sign the contract? Nobody.

They made their deals, they got fat and happy when times were good. They made or didnt' make calculations based on the future.

It is so great for you to ignore the massive profits they were able to make..and reward shareholders based on the denial or present day wages to their employees.

As for striking workers for pensions..should they ask for increased wages. GM so likes to do that.

Like i said. I would hate to enter into a contract with you. Your mistakes or windfalls should invalidate any contract you sign. :oops:

[Partial]

Dumbass its recruiters on craigslist.

There are plenty of small surgeries. Tons and tons. I'd argue there are far more minor surgeries than major.

I posted an article of the amount doctors are paying in. Where is your evidence other than get real? If an OBGYN is paying that, imagine how much a surgeon, etc is paying. You get real my friend.

Dumbass? You stated the PAs were billing..that implies they are doing the billing. That isn't recruiters.

As for billing..a quick perusal on miltown craigs..shows a 60 per hour. I searched under PA and Physi Asst. Nice try. :oops:

Small surgeries? Like what? Your pediatrician doesn't perform them. Derms do a bit. What minor surgeries are there besides moles, cysts, warts, eartubes, removal of thorns, injections, etc.

You have officially lost your mind.

Malpractice: First, dipshit...that was from 02. But, let's just use your article.


West Virginia obstetricians paid an average of $75,155 in 2001, while their colleagues next door in Kentucky were charged only $41,661.

Wow. You couldn't be selectively using info could you. The 200k was for South Florida...and the article stated.


Obstetricians, neurosurgeons, emergency physicians and other high-risk specialists have absorbed the brunt of the blow.

Florida is not average..it is way more costly there. But, nice try.

Now, how about my source..how about for anesthesia specialists? Oops, premiums dropping...average in 07 was 23,500.

http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2007/10/average-malpractice-premiums-for.html

How about for Arizona?

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&subsectionID=114&articleID=54788


For family practice doctors, who were paying $18,241 annually, the rate reduction means they'll be paying $16,898 for an annual policy that buys them $1 million of liability insurance per year with a cap of three $1 million losses a year, Carland explained.

Game. Set. Match.

That's really shitty coverage.. 1 million? 3x a year? Your parents would be broke by now with that crappy coverage. :lol:

Sorry Ty. Why is Florida and my data selectively bad, yet yours, which is ridiculously low and shitty not the same?

[bobblehead]

The fact is that currently, 25% of all doctors in this country weren't educated here. I see no problem with that. That is the free market. Why are you now complaining.



ignoring the rest of the post I'll say it again...when teddy kennedy decided that HMO's would be allowed to gain a market advantage (his words not mine) due to the large startup costs he changed things...it was no longer a free market. If we were to return to the free market I would have no problem with letting it play out...within 5 years everyone would have a cheap high deductible policy and a health care savings account.

[mraynrand]

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.



You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Dumbass its recruiters on craigslist.

There are plenty of small surgeries. Tons and tons. I'd argue there are far more minor surgeries than major.

I posted an article of the amount doctors are paying in. Where is your evidence other than get real? If an OBGYN is paying that, imagine how much a surgeon, etc is paying. You get real my friend.

Dumbass? You stated the PAs were billing..that implies they are doing the billing. That isn't recruiters.

As for billing..a quick perusal on miltown craigs..shows a 60 per hour. I searched under PA and Physi Asst. Nice try. :oops:

Small surgeries? Like what? Your pediatrician doesn't perform them. Derms do a bit. What minor surgeries are there besides moles, cysts, warts, eartubes, removal of thorns, injections, etc.

You have officially lost your mind.

Malpractice: First, dipshit...that was from 02. But, let's just use your article.


West Virginia obstetricians paid an average of $75,155 in 2001, while their colleagues next door in Kentucky were charged only $41,661.

Wow. You couldn't be selectively using info could you. The 200k was for South Florida...and the article stated.


Obstetricians, neurosurgeons, emergency physicians and other high-risk specialists have absorbed the brunt of the blow.

Florida is not average..it is way more costly there. But, nice try.

Now, how about my source..how about for anesthesia specialists? Oops, premiums dropping...average in 07 was 23,500.

http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2007/10/average-malpractice-premiums-for.html

How about for Arizona?

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&subsectionID=114&articleID=54788


For family practice doctors, who were paying $18,241 annually, the rate reduction means they'll be paying $16,898 for an annual policy that buys them $1 million of liability insurance per year with a cap of three $1 million losses a year, Carland explained.

Game. Set. Match.

That's really shitty coverage.. 1 million? 3x a year? Your parents would be broke by now with that crappy coverage. :lol:

Sorry Ty. Why is Florida and my data selectively bad, yet yours, which is ridiculously low and shitty not the same?

Shitty coverage: Says who? You? Are you now an expert on malpractice insurance as well. Is this one of your 7? LOL

Parents: Again you know nothing, My mother was NEVER sued. My dad was sued once and won. That is over 70 plus years combined.

Florida: Because the data was old, Florida is hardly like the rest of the country, etc.

Keep trying. I clearly posted figures that show that doctors for the most part arent' paying .5 of their salary to insurance.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.



You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

Poor supply doesnt' mean there are none. Just means there are less than in a big city. But, that has ALWAYS been the case. And, until you can show some sort of evidence that the problem is getting worse then all you are doing is speculating.

I can also speculate that rural doctors will increase as their pay will go up as there are less of them out there. Which, really isn't speculation as they do make more..in the field of OB/GYN.

You have yet to show one piece of evidence regarding rural doctors leaving or that they are doing so because of pay issues.

And, i'm quite confident that the market will adjust for those areas so that Sanjay will find it acceptable to live in Rhinelander.

[mraynrand]

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.



You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

Poor supply doesnt' mean there are none. Just means there are less than in a big city. But, that has ALWAYS been the case. And, until you can show some sort of evidence that the problem is getting worse then all you are doing is speculating.

I can also speculate that rural doctors will increase as their pay will go up as there are less of them out there. Which, really isn't speculation as they do make more..in the field of OB/GYN.

You have yet to show one piece of evidence regarding rural doctors leaving or that they are doing so because of pay issues.

And, i'm quite confident that the market will adjust for those areas so that Sanjay will find it acceptable to live in Rhinelander.

Ohio is recruiting from overseas to fill vacancies for gps across the state - not just rural, but in Akron and Canton, for example. Psychiatric residencies across the nation are half full and are also recruiting foreign docs. On average, skill and training for foreign docs is not as good as those trained in U.S. But maybe you think Sanjay is capable of diagnosing and treating your narcissistic personality disorder, coming from a completely different culture with possibly 1-2 years in a U.S. residency. Good luck with that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.



You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

Poor supply doesnt' mean there are none. Just means there are less than in a big city. But, that has ALWAYS been the case. And, until you can show some sort of evidence that the problem is getting worse then all you are doing is speculating.

I can also speculate that rural doctors will increase as their pay will go up as there are less of them out there. Which, really isn't speculation as they do make more..in the field of OB/GYN.

You have yet to show one piece of evidence regarding rural doctors leaving or that they are doing so because of pay issues.

And, i'm quite confident that the market will adjust for those areas so that Sanjay will find it acceptable to live in Rhinelander.

Ohio is recruiting from overseas to fill vacancies for gps across the state - not just rural, but in Akron and Canton, for example. Psychiatric residencies across the nation are half full and are also recruiting foreign docs. On average, skill and training for foreign docs is not as good as those trained in U.S. But maybe you think Sanjay is capable of diagnosing and treating your narcissistic personality disorder, coming from a completely different culture with possibly 1-2 years in a U.S. residency. Good luck with that.

I already pointed out the 25% of doctors are foreign born. this isn't a new trend..nor was i suggesting it only affects the rural areas.

Hmm, why are they recruiting GPs? Cause it is a low paying field and most doctors don't want to be in it. Should we artificially raise their salaries to encourage more to enter. Should we do this with internists as well?

Again, what is the point? The free market is working. Workers are free to move to where the jobs are....companies are free to hire whom they want or move to where they feel business is best.

Suddenly, it sounds like you are anti free market.

Somehow, i don't imagine seeing you crying out if well educated Indians were coming over here and teaching in our school system...because of the low pay.

As good: Again some evidence. Foreign born doctors who are educated outside of this country still have to do residencies here and take their boards.

Is it your position that every doctor educated here and practicing is great? C'mon.

Psychiatry: If they are as you say..why is that? There are a multitude of reasons...many people aren't seeing shrinks because they dont' need meds..there are psychologists, mental health counselors, family therapists, etc.

Could it be that there is a decreased need for them? Could it be that they haven't been successful in RECRUITING med school grads?

This article suggests many reasons...


Forced downsizings were almost all due to funding cuts by hospitals, universities, local or state governments, and/or by reductions in patient care income. Elective reductions were motivated by a wide variety of factors, most commonly actual or anticipated decreases in recruitment and the decision to not accept less qualified applicants. Other reductions resulted from more complicated structural departmental reorganizations, which were variably related to economic pressures. Reorganizations included integrating two formerly independent training programs, reorganizing the relationship of an academic department to its affiliates, shifting resources from inpatient services to outpatient sites, and/or closing hospital beds as part of a long-term hospital reconstruction plan.

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/22/2/127

And, here are the results of there survey:

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content-nw/full/22/2/127/T1

Is it your contention that soon you won't be able to lay your troubled head on a couch and rant about the injustices perpetrated by liberals.

Sanjay may not help me with my disorder, but i'm sure he is well qualified to administer shock treatment to you.

[Partial]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

[Tyrone Bigguns]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

Do you know how to read? That is a salary for a generalist. Not a urologist, surgeon, ENT, radiologist, cardiologist, etc.

Laughable is your inability to read. Oh, lord.

Try this one dipshit.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

[Partial]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

Do you know how to read? That is a salary for a generalist. Not a urologist, surgeon, ENT, radiologist, cardiologist, etc.

Laughable is your inability to read. Oh, lord.

Try this one dipshit.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

Outside of a few rare specialists (which really, how many can there be in one city? 1? ), most are not making more than 300 grand. It's the max for a reason big guy. Max != average.

Most of those with the higher income also are in the fields with the 200k+ malpractice insurance.

Again, you lose and you lose and you lose.

[mraynrand]

I already pointed out the 25% of doctors are foreign born. this isn't a new trend..nor was i suggesting it only affects the rural areas.

Hmm, why are they recruiting GPs? Cause it is a low paying field and most doctors don't want to be in it. Should we artificially raise their salaries to encourage more to enter. Should we do this with internists as well?

Again, what is the point? The free market is working. Workers are free to move to where the jobs are....companies are free to hire whom they want or move to where they feel business is best.

Suddenly, it sounds like you are anti free market.

Somehow, i don't imagine seeing you crying out if well educated Indians were coming over here and teaching in our school system...because of the low pay.

As good: Again some evidence. Foreign born doctors who are educated outside of this country still have to do residencies here and take their boards.

Is it your position that every doctor educated here and practicing is great? C'mon.

Psychiatry: If they are as you say..why is that? There are a multitude of reasons...many people aren't seeing shrinks because they dont' need meds..there are psychologists, mental health counselors, family therapists, etc.

Could it be that there is a decreased need for them? Could it be that they haven't been successful in RECRUITING med school grads?

This article suggests many reasons...


Forced downsizings were almost all due to funding cuts by hospitals, universities, local or state governments, and/or by reductions in patient care income. Elective reductions were motivated by a wide variety of factors, most commonly actual or anticipated decreases in recruitment and the decision to not accept less qualified applicants. Other reductions resulted from more complicated structural departmental reorganizations, which were variably related to economic pressures. Reorganizations included integrating two formerly independent training programs, reorganizing the relationship of an academic department to its affiliates, shifting resources from inpatient services to outpatient sites, and/or closing hospital beds as part of a long-term hospital reconstruction plan.

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/22/2/127

And, here are the results of there survey:

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content-nw/full/22/2/127/T1

Is it your contention that soon you won't be able to lay your troubled head on a couch and rant about the injustices perpetrated by liberals.

Sanjay may not help me with my disorder, but i'm sure he is well qualified to administer shock treatment to you.

I missed this response. There are a lot of good things in there. Look, physicians as a standard bearer for the kind of retreat from capitalism described in Atlas Shrugged is absurd (as is the retreat from society of producers described in 'shrugged' as well). People will retreat from certain things if they become less desirable, but they probably won't go to a shielded valley somewhere (they actually tried it in Vermont or New Hampshire and they couldn't get enough people to pledge). People like living in the real world.

But with respect to physicians, most docs go into medicine because they like treating patients, they like the prestige, and they like the money, I think mostly in that order. Docs I know are discouraged by the constant harassment of all the bureaucracy and the rules and regs, as well as the reduced compensation forced on them by negotiated contracts with insurance carriers. My thinking is that with more centralized control and government intrusion, the rates negotiated will get worse. Yes, there will be market adjustments, and I'm not really opposed in principle to having foreign physicians come in and treat patients in this country, but I don't want it to be because the profession becomes less inviting to top talent here and therefore declines in quality. I am concerned that the more government intrusion, the more likely this outcome.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm not going to waste much time blogging while I sit here in thailand, but I am going to make this post.....there is exaxtly ONE hospital here that I would consider going to for treatment. I enjoy myself here, but using it as a model or example in any arguement automatically diminishes the entire arguement in my eyes.

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

I take it Thailand doesn't figure among the places you'd move to if you decide you're fed up with tax rates in the US? :lol:


I suppose you think it'd be easier for you to compete in the marketplace if you eliminate all of societies over achievers. I got news for you. You can get rid of all of us and it won't matter a bit. You'll still continue under perform. Only then, you won't have us around to try and shift the blame to.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

Do you know how to read? That is a salary for a generalist. Not a urologist, surgeon, ENT, radiologist, cardiologist, etc.

Laughable is your inability to read. Oh, lord.

Try this one dipshit.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

Outside of a few rare specialists (which really, how many can there be in one city? 1? ), most are not making more than 300 grand. It's the max for a reason big guy. Max != average.

Most of those with the higher income also are in the fields with the 200k+ malpractice insurance.

Again, you lose and you lose and you lose.

Really? I guess those 150-200 radiologists in the greater phoenix area are a figment of my imagination. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Max: Doctors quickly achieve their max..within 7-10 years. Even if we use average..that is for plus 3 years...you are an idiot if you think that is where they stand after 10.

More to the point, you really don't understand how much doctors make. First, like any business that is incorporated, they pay themselves a salary. However, like businesses that have have profitible quarters they give themselves bonuses. They dont' just pay themselves on what they earn each week.

Secondly, many doctors have two income streams. Your standard radiologic group will have two streams...one, from reading the images, the second from the imaging centers themselves. So, when you talk salary, you aren't considering the business of the imaging center.

200K: Again, i already showed you fields that make more that pay less. You have one source for OB/GYN..and that was from florida.

The higher paying fields often don't have higher premiums. For example, your plastic surgeon performing breast augmentation will make a ton of dough but isn't involved in a field where the risk is high.

Don't bother responding, because you just appear more foolish with each post.

[mraynrand]

I'm not going to waste much time blogging while I sit here in thailand, but I am going to make this post.....there is exaxtly ONE hospital here that I would consider going to for treatment. I enjoy myself here, but using it as a model or example in any arguement automatically diminishes the entire arguement in my eyes.

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

I take it Thailand doesn't figure among the places you'd move to if you decide you're fed up with tax rates in the US? :lol:


I suppose you think it'd be easier for you to compete in the marketplace if you eliminate all of societies over achievers. I got news for you. You can get rid of all of us and it won't matter a bit. You'll still continue under perform. Only then, you won't have us around to try and shift the blame to.

Never end a sentence in a preposition. You know, for an achiever, you don't write too good.

[Partial]

Ty, you have yet to provide an average on income. My sources say otherwise. The max is one person on the extremely high end. That means every single person except for one earns less than the max.

You have showed a poor example.

Why is Florida different besides you saying it is different? What is the reason?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty, you have yet to provide an average on income. My sources say otherwise. The max is one person on the extremely high end. That means every single person except for one earns less than the max.

You have showed a poor example.

Why is Florida different besides you saying it is different? What is the reason?

Sources? What sources have you provided? You gave one regarding a general physician.

I gave you a chart. Now you dont' like it. LOL

And, you arent' even considering surgery centers, imaging centers, RK centers, etc.

Max: One person? You are out of your mind. that isn't what that chart is saying. Every radiologist in a group once they make partner makes the roughly the same salary. That is the deal.

Florida: Why is that my responsibility? And, it wasn't for all physicians..the article specifically was talking about OB/GYN.

Florida is unique in many respects..from the nature of liability to the type of patients they see.

And, florida law regarding liability is also different. Huge settlements are given for "pain and suffering."

The Florida malpractice carriers have the ability to settle a case whether you agree with them or not and whether you did wrong or not.

• You are held personally liable for all monetary judgments over your practice liability limits unless you tell the insurance company to settle the case for the limits whether you did wrong or not. The average Florida case is for over $1 million today.

• The Florida Constitutional limits of $500,000 on non-economic (pain and suffering) damages are unconstitutional per circuit court. This appeal is now before the Florida Supreme Court. KaChing!!!

• The Florida Supreme Court has ruled that an expert witness may testify based on their personal knowledge or experience and not based on the medically accepted norms in the field of their expertise. KaChing!!!

• Florida is the only state in the union to have a "three strikes and you're out" constitutional amendment. This broadly interprets that should a Florida jury or arbitrator find you at fault for a malpractice event, you will be assigned a strike. This is retroactive, and incidents in other states count. After three strikes, your license will be permanently revoked. KaCHING!!!

• The Florida Supreme Court has ruled that all medical expert testimony, whether true or a complete lie is fully protected on the witness stand and granted absolute immunity ... expert perjury, libel, or slander is legal.KaChing!!!

P.S. Since you are such a complete dipshit, i'll clue you in. 2/3rds of all doctors in S. Florida ARE UNINSURED. Oops. That means they aren't paying the 200K you use.

Game. Set. Match.