Be TT for a day. Do you do the C. Williams trade NOW?

[SnakeLH2006]

When I say be TT for a day, I'm not talking about catching trout with fine young men in the basement, so hear me out. :cry: :shock: :lol:

It looks as if our D-Line rotation is in shambles. I liked C-Will yet I wasn't sad to seem him go nor were many posters when that trade for a 2nd round pick went down. I thought he had very good pass rush ability yet seemed vulnerable to the run.

Looking back it's easy to say we shouldn't have made the trade, as I don't care much for Brohm now or in the future with Iron Man Aaron leading the charge (who's done well), yet maybe we could have drafted a deece DT with that pick?

Here's how I'm looking at it. Did/do we want to tie up a massive contract with C-Will? I definitely didn't and have softened as our D-Line has too, yet I still wouldn't want his HUGE contract for a seemingly unmotivated player who flashes brilliance, and average play most of the time. Seems pretty lazy and happy to have a fat contract. Yet, he's better than what we have currently, so it's kinda moot point.

I don't think he would have made much of a difference this year. We'd be better but really, could C-Will have been the difference in our Run D this year or a sack or 3 thus far? My blame is on our D scheme (so where's that LB blitz package Bob?) and the lackluster play from Jolly and even Pickett thus far. Is C. Cole the answer? Didn't think so. Why'd we keep that tard?

I doubt one player like C-WIll (as I made this thread with a few peeps thinking he'd be the ANSWER on other threads lately, lol, and still support the trade for the 2nd (just not Brohm as it looked good at the time..not so much now).

My vote is do the trade TT! Just don't pick Brohm again!

[Harlan Huckleby]

they didn't have to pay a massive contract. They could have stuck him with a franchise tag, kept him around for one more year as an insurance policy until JH proved himself.

[Scott Campbell]

Since the trade, Harrell got hurt, Jenkins went on IR, and I think Jolly got arrested after the trade too. No, I do not make that trade today. It's a completely different set of circumstances.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Would I trade a 2nd round pick and give up a huge long-term contract to get Corey Williams back? I wouldn't. It would be nice to have him on the team, but he's not worth that.

[SnakeLH2006]

they didn't have to pay a massive contract. They could have stuck him with a franchise tag, kept him around for one more year as an insurance policy until JH proved himself.

Well it would have been 7 million as a transition player and 9 million for a franchise player for 1 year. Peanuts I guess this year, but how many teams really do this? What I mean is how many teams tie up a huge 1 year deal with no chance to resign or want that player? Most try to resign that player cuz he's one of the best at their position. I doubt C-Will is one of the best 32 DT's right now. Why pay him as such?

Don't hold your breath on JH dude.

[SnakeLH2006]

I guess I'm right. Right now at 6-0 get that 2nd for C-Will. I think he's ok, but good to see we see more of prob. with the scheme or don't pay that lazy mofo C-Will crazy money.

[Partial]

Would I trade a 2nd round pick and give up a huge long-term contract to get Corey Williams back? I wouldn't. It would be nice to have him on the team, but he's not worth that.

Right on the money.

[SnakeLH2006]

Would I trade a 2nd round pick and give up a huge long-term contract to get Corey Williams back? I wouldn't. It would be nice to have him on the team, but he's not worth that.

Right on the money.

Once again........but where are all those C-WIll lovers? He's OK but the fuck if I'd give him 7 million plus a year to keep him here. This thread was a diss to those who thought we'd be better off with C-WIll....regardless of Brohm...I'd still take that 2nd anyday....Does NE1 have C-Will's stats tho thus far?

[SnakeLH2006]

ok..8-0...i agreee as do we all...why does our DL suck so bad?

[Pacopete4]

Would I trade a 2nd round pick and give up a huge long-term contract to get Corey Williams back? I wouldn't. It would be nice to have him on the team, but he's not worth that.

Right on the money.

Once again........but where are all those C-WIll lovers? He's OK but the fuck if I'd give him 7 million plus a year to keep him here. This thread was a diss to those who thought we'd be better off with C-WIll....regardless of Brohm...I'd still take that 2nd anyday....Does NE1 have C-Will's stats tho thus far?



well where are the Arod lovers then?... cuz we don't need Brohm if Arod is the real deal right?


If Arod is supposed the real deal, then ya... of course I want Williams instead of Brohm... but of course those Arod backers wont show their face and put their nuts on the line for that cause

oh and they'll probably give some excuse of...

"we need a very good backup QB" blah, blah, blah....

[cpk1994]

Would I trade a 2nd round pick and give up a huge long-term contract to get Corey Williams back? I wouldn't. It would be nice to have him on the team, but he's not worth that.

Right on the money.

Once again........but where are all those C-WIll lovers? He's OK but the fuck if I'd give him 7 million plus a year to keep him here. This thread was a diss to those who thought we'd be better off with C-WIll....regardless of Brohm...I'd still take that 2nd anyday....Does NE1 have C-Will's stats tho thus far?



well where are the Arod lovers then?... cuz we don't need Brohm if Arod is the real deal right?


If Arod is supposed the real deal, then ya... of course I want Williams instead of Brohm... but of course those Arod backers wont show their face and put their nuts on the line for that cause

oh and they'll probably give some excuse of...

"we need a very good backup QB" blah, blah, blah....Oh really? Williams is not worth the money no matter the outcome. Secondly, I still take Brohm becuase while I believe ARod is the real deal, thats not 100% set in stone. By drafting Brohm, I increase my odds that if by chance, ARod does fall on his face, I still have another QB to work with and groom. Its called planning for worst case scenario.

[Patler]

well where are the Arod lovers then?... cuz we don't need Brohm if Arod is the real deal right?

If Arod is supposed the real deal, then ya... of course I want Williams instead of Brohm... but of course those Arod backers wont show their face and put their nuts on the line for that cause

oh and they'll probably give some excuse of...

"we need a very good backup QB" blah, blah, blah....

You always need a backup. As Wolf often mentioned, QBs are investments. You can draft them, use them and trade them, often for more than you paid to get them.

If Favre was the real deal, why did Wolf draft a QB almost every year? He traded Vince Workman, the starting HB, leading rusher and 4th leading receiver from the year before, and drafted Mark Brunnell with the pick he got for him. He also drafted Detmer, Barker, Wachholtz, McAda, Hasselbeck and Brooks. Many were drafted with compensatory picks, about the same as trading players for the picks used to draft the QBs, since the picks were available only because players were lost in free agency.

[Patler]

Last year, people complained and questioned TT's competence for keeping so many D-lineman. They questioned his sanity for having drafted a DT in the first round. When Williams was traded, all the others from 2007 were still on the roster, and everyone was healthy. If they had too many in 2007, what's wrong with trading one for a 2nd round pick?

Some are now complaining that TT has not done enough to rebuild/replenish the D-line. How many of those same people complained when he drafted a defensive tackle in the first round? After all, it was the Packers' area of surplus.

This year, some of those same people complained about the Jordy Nelson pick. Again the area of Packer surplus. I'm glad he's here, with as much as Martin and Jones have been out. Nelson has more receptions than Martin and Jones combined.

[SnakeLH2006]

8-0...and entertaining ho's...Good rhyme....better times. :D

[cpk1994]

well where are the Arod lovers then?... cuz we don't need Brohm if Arod is the real deal right?

If Arod is supposed the real deal, then ya... of course I want Williams instead of Brohm... but of course those Arod backers wont show their face and put their nuts on the line for that cause

oh and they'll probably give some excuse of...

"we need a very good backup QB" blah, blah, blah....

You always need a backup. As Wolf often mentioned, QBs are investments. You can draft them, use them and trade them, often for more than you paid to get them.

If Favre was the real deal, why did Wolf draft a QB almost every year? He traded Vince Workman, the starting HB, leading rusher and 4th leading receiver from the year before, and drafted Mark Brunnell with the pick he got for him. He also drafted Detmer, Barker, Wachholtz, McAda, Hasselbeck and Brooks. Many were drafted with compensatory picks, about the same as trading players for the picks used to draft the QBs, since the picks were available only because players were lost in free agency.
Excellent point. I forgot about Wolf's QB drafting. OF those 1/2 of those became starters somewhere. .500 isn't a bad average in that regard.

[Joemailman]

Knowing that Harrell is hurt, Muir is a bust, Jenkins is hurt, and Jolly may still have to stand trial, I would not make the trade.

[Bretsky]

Last year, people complained and questioned TT's competence for keeping so many D-lineman. They questioned his sanity for having drafted a DT in the first round. When Williams was traded, all the others from 2007 were still on the roster, and everyone was healthy. If they had too many in 2007, what's wrong with trading one for a 2nd round pick?

Some are now complaining that TT has not done enough to rebuild/replenish the D-line. How many of those same people complained when he drafted a defensive tackle in the first round? After all, it was the Packers' area of surplus.

This year, some of those same people complained about the Jordy Nelson pick. Again the area of Packer surplus. I'm glad he's here, with as much as Martin and Jones have been out. Nelson has more receptions than Martin and Jones combined.

It's a fact based business Patler. I didn't like the Harrell Pick. I hope to be proven wrong, but so far I have not been. Keeping Montgomery, Cole, Hunter, and drafting Thompson....those are all decisions that TT gets credit for or is held accountable for.

I'm not saying TT has destroyed the DL; but I don't completely agree with your point in paragraph one. You are talking about quantity and some are looking at quality he's brought in. A surplus serves no good if you lack quality.

I'm OK with Jordy Nelson; I'd have rather had two WR's drafted behind him but time will tell. He does seem like a good attitude TT guy.

[Bretsky]

We might lose KGB's contract next year; I'm torn on this. Williams is not worth that amount of money. But our cup is clearly more dry than I thought it would be.

Can we just re draft our 2nd round pick so this poll is easier :lol: :?:

[falco]

its probably still too early to evaluate brohm

IMHO, if brohm continues to suck, than yes it would be nice to have c-will for one more year as a franchise player (we have the cap space) he'd still be playing for a new contract

but if brohm shows anything as a QB, and we can get draft picks for him later, then its probably still not a terrible move

[Bretsky]

its probably still too early to evaluate brohm

IMHO, if brohm continues to suck, than yes it would be nice to have c-will for one more year as a franchise player (we have the cap space) he'd still be playing for a new contract

but if brohm shows anything as a QB, and we can get draft picks for him later, then its probably still not a terrible move

You are right

In retrospect AROD looked absolutely horrible as a true rookie; ESPN was reporting via radio that "some within the organization" didn't think he could develop into an effective QB.

I remember listening to all the junk.

Reality is AROD has developed fine and looks better than most of us thought he would; hopefully the same occurs with Brohm.

[falco]

its probably still too early to evaluate brohm

IMHO, if brohm continues to suck, than yes it would be nice to have c-will for one more year as a franchise player (we have the cap space) he'd still be playing for a new contract

but if brohm shows anything as a QB, and we can get draft picks for him later, then its probably still not a terrible move

You are right

In retrospect AROD looked absolutely horrible as a true rookie; ESPN was reporting via radio that "some within the organization" didn't think he could develop into an effective QB.

I remember listening to all the junk.

Reality is AROD has developed fine and looks better than most of us thought he would; hopefully the same occurs with Brohm.

i was thinking the same thing bretsky ... rodgers looked horrible - of course, back then we didn't have to worry about him ever starting a game

part of me says TT was playing with fire when he went into the season with only 3 DT ... had they stayed healthy, I think we would have been okay, especially with harrell showing up after game 6

of course, the other part of me says TT didn't see things going this way (maybe thought some of those scrub players like malone would step up) and is simply making the best of a bad situation

[Guiness]

I'm one of those who was stunned at the money, but thought he was at least borderline worth it.

With the benefit of hindsight, I don't make the trade now...not because he wouldn't help (I think he would) but because of the way he's behaved since he 'got paid'. Including running his mouth off before this w/e's game with the Giants.

What I would do though is franchise him, force him to play (he won't be happy, but he will play) and let him walk next year.

[Patler]

It's a fact based business Patler. I didn't like the Harrell Pick. I hope to be proven wrong, but so far I have not been. Keeping Montgomery, Cole, Hunter, and drafting Thompson....those are all decisions that TT gets credit for or is held accountable for.

I'm not saying TT has destroyed the DL; but I don't completely agree with your point in paragraph one. You are talking about quantity and some are looking at quality he's brought in. A surplus serves no good if you lack quality.
.

If you look back at the time of the draft, for many who complained about the Harrell pick it had nothing to do with quality. They complained because they felt the Packers didn't need a tackle, period. Not any tackle. There were positions of greater need in their opinions. Now of course they claim to be geniuses because Harrell has not contributed. Now it is because of quality. At the time the complaint was quantity, not quality.

It is always easy to look smart 12 months after the decision.

[GBRulz]

Yeah, but Harrell came with a history of being injured. I think that had a great deal to do with people being upset about the pick, too.

[RashanGary]

Charles Woodson had a long recent history of injury and he paned out.


There are some things that are projectable. If you watch a lot of Big 10 footall, watch a lot of NFL football and have a lot of experience of watching players transition between college and the NFL as well as a general feel for their drive and work ehtic, I think you can make some reasonable conclusions.

Example: AJ Hawk playing linebacker at OSU. You watched him play and he looked like an NFL player. He had NFL size. He tackled well against other NFL quality players. He had a work ethic and drive to succeed that was well documented. Injury can always happen, but I think with him there was enough reason to believe he would be good to have a strong, opinionated stance on what to expect in the NFL. At the very worst I think he was going to be good.

Injuries are so unpredictable and play of a lot of these college players is so unknown by us that it's hard to predict. Throw into it that we don't really know how hard they are going to work or how bad they want to be good and you have a bunch of lucky stabs and unlucky misses.

I'm not going to give credit to the Harrell haters becuase mmost of the hate was because our DL was already strong enough and that is not the problem. The problem right now is a combintation of him not being a good, hardworking pro and his back injury that was unpredictable. A couple posters said he was lazy. Those posters saw something I didn't and maybe they were right. The rest, as Patler said, are just sort of twisting it into an I told you so. I'll take the Favre "I told you so's". I think my dislike of the pressure he put on TT clouded my judgement, but the Harrell "I told you so's" I won't acknolwedge.

[Scott Campbell]

The reason JH dropped to 16 was his injury history. So Ted took more than the usual chance on JH, and so far it hasn't panned out.

[Fritz]

Would I trade a 2nd round pick and give up a huge long-term contract to get Corey Williams back? I wouldn't. It would be nice to have him on the team, but he's not worth that.

Right on the money.

Once again........but where are all those C-WIll lovers? He's OK but the fuck if I'd give him 7 million plus a year to keep him here. This thread was a diss to those who thought we'd be better off with C-WIll....regardless of Brohm...I'd still take that 2nd anyday....Does NE1 have C-Will's stats tho thus far?

Even with Brett Favre in his prime, Ron Wolf drafted gusy like Matt Hasselback and Aaron Brooks.

I think the problem with Williams was essentially money - he wanted to get paid like a guy he's not. And I'm not sure how bitter or unproductive he'd have been if he'd been slapped with a franchise. Besides, then you'd get nothing for him at the end of the year.

He's got one sack in what, five games so far for Cleveland? That'll add up to about 4 sacks for the year. Mmm...gues I'd still make that trade, though I can see the other side of it as well.


well where are the Arod lovers then?... cuz we don't need Brohm if Arod is the real deal right?


If Arod is supposed the real deal, then ya... of course I want Williams instead of Brohm... but of course those Arod backers wont show their face and put their nuts on the line for that cause

oh and they'll probably give some excuse of...

"we need a very good backup QB" blah, blah, blah....

[Fritz]

Sorry I didn't post the above response correctly, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what thought is mine and what words are Paco's.

[Bretsky]

The reason JH dropped to 16 was his injury history.


That was the company line at least

[Scott Campbell]

The reason JH dropped to 16 was his injury history.


That was the company line at least



Company line? There seemed to be quite a bit of conventional thinking aligned with him going higher if healthy.

[falco]

The reason JH dropped to 16 was his injury history.


That was the company line at least



Company line? There seemed to be quite a bit of conventional thinking aligned with him going higher if healthy.

supposedly denver was going to take him at 18

[Pugger]

I'm one of those who was stunned at the money, but thought he was at least borderline worth it.

With the benefit of hindsight, I don't make the trade now...not because he wouldn't help (I think he would) but because of the way he's behaved since he 'got paid'. Including running his mouth off before this w/e's game with the Giants.

What I would do though is franchise him, force him to play (he won't be happy, but he will play) and let him walk next year.

Why let him just walk? I think it was smart of TT to get something for him. And it is still WAY to early to write off Brohm as a bust. 98% of all rookie QBs suck when they first get started. Heck, even BF struggled like mad when he began to play regularly.

[Bretsky]

The reason JH dropped to 16 was his injury history.


That was the company line at least



Company line? There seemed to be quite a bit of conventional thinking aligned with him going higher if healthy.


Only spot I ever heard that top ten jargon was from was our own. If you have other sources feel free to provide them. I'm pretty draft fanatical; most publications had JH going in the second half of round one. I'm not sure he warranted a top ten selection based on his college credentials.

[Tony Oday]

I just remember all the decent QBs that cycled through the Packers when Favre was here: Hasslebeck, Warner, Brooks, Brunell, Detmer, Pederson to name a few. These guys may not have all been world beaters however they were all good enough to start.

[Scott Campbell]

The reason JH dropped to 16 was his injury history.


That was the company line at least



Company line? There seemed to be quite a bit of conventional thinking aligned with him going higher if healthy.


Only spot I ever heard that top ten jargon was from was our own. If you have other sources feel free to provide them.


The top 10 jargon was only if he didn't have the injury history.


http://www.nflminute.com/2007/04/28/a-complete-recap-the-first-round-of-the-2007-nfl-draft/

16. Green Bay Packers — Justin Harrell; defensive tackle, Tennessee

* Grade: B+
* Great defensive tackle who missed much of 2006 because of a torn bicep; big (6′5 300), strong, and athletic man in the middle; could have been top 10 had he played all of 2006