With Al Harris coming back do we start T-Will till he's 100%

[SnakeLH2006]

Personally great news that Al is coming back after the bye. Do I think Al is the lockdown corner he thinks he is. NOT ANYMORE. I jestfully hung with some buddies this weekend and referred to Al Harris as "Big Game Al" which got some hilarious retributes from hardcore Packer fans. All agreed with the Big Game Al joke.

Al is very good, but on the biggest games we relied on him last year he failed (TO-Dallas, Plaxico-NFC championship game). I'm not dissing Al, but his best games are behind him as seems pretty ego-driven and lacking major speed and now injured and only getting older at an ancient 34 at CB. He was timed at 4.63 at his fastest when he was younger in his 20's and LB's can run faster than him now (well all the Packer starter LB's for that matter).

Granted speed isn't his best attribute (he's a scrapper and good at it) and I DO like Al as a player as he's a tough SOB with attitude but we've done VERY well without him.

T-Will's 4.3 speed has made a difference as has his shadowing ability of opposing WR's and his crazy catch up speed (I remember two plays where others got burnt this year where he appeared out of nowhere to save the TD resulting in FG's).

Al could not do that. Am I saying T-Will is better than AL at this point. Possibly. Are they so close that I would start T-Will until Al proves he's healthy? YES.

Proof? Well here's numbers thus far this year:

51.7 completion %, 186 yards/game, 9 TDs, 13 interceptions, 5.0 yards allowed/pass play


T-Will has shown he's worth a 5 year deal if we are lucky with TT for a reasonable contract. Al's best days are behind him. Keep Al but groom and give T-Will his spot now. 8-)

[mission]

I'm glad you posted this a second time so, you know, I could read it um ... twice... :lol:

[SnakeLH2006]

I'm glad you posted this a second time so, you know, I could read it um ... twice... :lol:

:lol: :lol: Yeah, I could post this one as this seems a topic that many would have a good opinion on. LOL. What's your take Mission? We are both late nite Rats with some opinions? LOL

[bobblehead]

I voted al...it will actually help us with TWill's contract. I know that isn't fair, but that is life. I call them very close right now, I still favor AL (twill doesn't run a 4.3...almost no one on the planet does.) The nickel will be on the field plenty so its barely a reduction in downs for tramon.

In likelyhood next year it will all be williams with al playing corner..what will we do if blackmon or Lee developes? (what a great problem that would be)

[ahaha]

Have Harris play nickel for a game or two, until he gets back into football shape. Then, if he looks alright, make him the starter. T-Will will still be on the field plenty.
Harris was a big disappointment vs. Owens last year. But, I don't think he played that bad in the NFC championship. I've watched that game a few times, and Harris had good coverage most of the time. What stands out is the phenominal play of Manning and Burress. When a QB and WR are playing that well there isn't much a CB can do.

[mraynrand]

I like Al Harris a lot. He's played well for a long time. His injury was a blessing in disguise for the Packers. Teams were game planning for him and exploiting his lack of speed with crossing patterns, and his complete inability to play zone or play in space by motioning receivers. I really don't want to see him on the field except to play dime against the outside receiver, perhaps even only with a safety over the top. At the very least, he should never be put in a situation where he has to play zone. I think he's slipped that far - even before the injury.

[SkinBasket]

I've maintained Harris would be great in the nickel for the past season and a half. I think his INTs would leap covering the 3rd WR and staying short instead of being asked to run deep, which exposes his greatest weakness, would be a good thing.

That being said, a guy doesn't lose his starting spot because he tore his spleen. And while Al might be a great teammate, I don't see him accepting the demotion without some rancor anyway. I've been on board with Williams since he came to town, but a handful of games doesn't tell the story of how good he will be. Deciding he's better than Harris because of the last month seems a little short sighted.

[falco]

I've maintained Harris would be great in the nickel for the past season and a half. I think his INTs would leap covering the 3rd WR and staying short instead of being asked to run deep, which exposes his greatest weakness, would be a good thing.

That being said, a guy doesn't lose his starting spot because he tore his spleen. And while Al might be a great teammate, I don't see him accepting the demotion without some rancor anyway. I've been on board with Williams since he came to town, but a handful of games doesn't tell the story of how good he will be. Deciding he's better than Harris because of the last month seems a little short sighted.

agree 100%

[mraynrand]

I've maintained Harris would be great in the nickel for the past season and a half. I think his INTs would leap covering the 3rd WR and staying short instead of being asked to run deep, which exposes his greatest weakness, would be a good thing.

That being said, a guy doesn't lose his starting spot because he tore his spleen. And while Al might be a great teammate, I don't see him accepting the demotion without some rancor anyway. I've been on board with Williams since he came to town, but a handful of games doesn't tell the story of how good he will be. Deciding he's better than Harris because of the last month seems a little short sighted.

agree 100%

I disagree. The third guy comes in, lines up wide and runs some kind of deep route. Harris doesn't get his hands on him, the guy will be wide open. No safety help - TD. Harris is that slow. If we were looking at tape together, I could show you multiple times he got flat out beat on go routes. And watching him lost in space in zone coverage is downright painful. I think he will be a liability coming back.

[falco]

I've maintained Harris would be great in the nickel for the past season and a half. I think his INTs would leap covering the 3rd WR and staying short instead of being asked to run deep, which exposes his greatest weakness, would be a good thing.

That being said, a guy doesn't lose his starting spot because he tore his spleen. And while Al might be a great teammate, I don't see him accepting the demotion without some rancor anyway. I've been on board with Williams since he came to town, but a handful of games doesn't tell the story of how good he will be. Deciding he's better than Harris because of the last month seems a little short sighted.

agree 100%

I disagree. The third guy comes in, lines up wide and runs some kind of deep route. Harris doesn't get his hands on him, the guy will be wide open. No safety help - TD. Harris is that slow. If we were looking at tape together, I could show you multiple times he got flat out beat on go routes. And watching him lost in space in zone coverage is downright painful. I think he will be a liability coming back.

you may be right - i don't follow it that closely. but it seems to me that harris played fine this year before getting hurt. even if he is a drop off, I think the coaching staff makes him the "nominal" starter for the rest of the year at least

[mraynrand]

I've maintained Harris would be great in the nickel for the past season and a half. I think his INTs would leap covering the 3rd WR and staying short instead of being asked to run deep, which exposes his greatest weakness, would be a good thing.

That being said, a guy doesn't lose his starting spot because he tore his spleen. And while Al might be a great teammate, I don't see him accepting the demotion without some rancor anyway. I've been on board with Williams since he came to town, but a handful of games doesn't tell the story of how good he will be. Deciding he's better than Harris because of the last month seems a little short sighted.

agree 100%

I disagree. The third guy comes in, lines up wide and runs some kind of deep route. Harris doesn't get his hands on him, the guy will be wide open. No safety help - TD. Harris is that slow. If we were looking at tape together, I could show you multiple times he got flat out beat on go routes. And watching him lost in space in zone coverage is downright painful. I think he will be a liability coming back.

you may be right - i don't follow it that closely. but it seems to me that harris played fine this year before getting hurt. even if he is a drop off, I think the coaching staff makes him the "nominal" starter for the rest of the year at least

It will be interesting to see what happens, for sure!

[Zool]

Harris does not play the slot reciever in any package. He's been either locked on the #1 or lined up on the D right. In the nickel, Woodson generally plays the slot reciever 1 on 1 and the 3rd DB covers D left or the #2 with safety help.

The only time he played any against the slot was the disaster in Dallas last season when the Cowboys lined TO up all over the place.

[LL2]

I like Al Harris a lot. He's played well for a long time. His injury was a blessing in disguise for the Packers.

I agree. Looks like the Packers secondary will be ok after Harris and Woodson are done. Although, the way Woodson is playing looks like he has a few years left in him.

[sharpe1027]

When was T-Will asked to shut down an Owens or Plax mostly by himself?

Until he does, I don't think it is fair to compare how Harris faired against those guys to how T-Will has played so far.

That being said, T-Will has done something Harris didn't, he's making interceptions.

It is a good problem to have, and I don't think they can go wrong.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I agree with ahaha, put Al in as the nickel back to get him back up to game speed and get any rust off for a game or two. After that, decide who the better CB is.

Just because Al's healthy is not a reason in and of itself to give him his starting job back. If T-Will continues to show that he should start and plays better than Al, T-Will starts. That's life in the NFL.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I like Al Harris a lot. He's played well for a long time.
you know any post that starts this way is gonna be a burner.


His injury was a blessing in disguise for the Packers.
ouch


I really don't want to see him on the field except to play dime against the outside receiver
:flm: poor Al - burned again.

[Tony Oday]

I think it doesnt matter who the starter is it seems like most teams run a 3 WR set all the time anyway!

[mraynrand]

When was T-Will asked to shut down an Owens or Plax mostly by himself?

Until he does, I don't think it is fair to compare how Harris faired against those guys to how T-Will has played so far.


Oy! First, Al Harris completely failed against TO at least three times - in 2004 at Philly last year and this year against Dallas and we know what happened in last year's NFCCG. He didn't do so well in week two either. The Packers learned their lesson - Woodson will match up man on the other team's best receiver (like Reggie Wayne). Harris will never be asked to do that again, even against a guy he's dominated, like Roy Williams, because teams have figured out how to neutralize Harris. The Packers probably will not Ask Williams to line up against the other team's best receiver either, so it's unlikely that a direct comparison will happen. If it does, I'm confident Williams will fare better.

[boiga]

I think that Al's place in the backfield is going to depend more on matchups than scheme. There are some receivers that Al consistently shut down in a way that is unreal. Bernard Berrian, Roy Williams etc. These guys always had their worst games of the season against Al, so why change what works for you?

Any time we play up against a skinny long legged speedster, we need Harris to be the guy taking him out of the play at the line of scrimmage. He's still the best bump and run corner we have. If he needs safety help to cover a Calvin Johnson, give it to him, but there is still no one better at press coverage.

[GoPackGo]

Have Harris play nickel for a game or two, until he gets back into football shape. Then, if he looks alright, make him the starter. T-Will will still be on the field plenty.

I agree with this

[sheepshead]

coaches game time decision. We dont have enough information.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

I only voted T-will until Al is 100% because I don't think Al needs to come back until he IS 100%.

If he's 100% after the bye against the titans there is no way, absolutely no way, we can not start Al. Not to mention, Al and Atari's physical presence would go a long way against the most physical team in football, the Tennessee Titans.

disclaimer: I am no Titan fan there is only one team for me, I call it how I see it.

[bobblehead]

Rand...you know politics, but you are off your rocker. Al Harris is a big time stud and should have been a multiple pro-bowler. Al is still a shutdown corner.

The only reason he has struggled with TO is the head games....he gets too emotional and tries to hard instead of doing what he does. Burress....ridiculous pass and catch multiple times...al was all over him most of that game. (which is why they didn't double, no one believed they could keep up perfect accuracy and fingertip catches)

[mraynrand]

Rand...you know politics, but you are off your rocker. Al Harris is a big time stud and should have been a multiple pro-bowler. Al is still a shutdown corner.

The only reason he has struggled with TO is the head games....he gets too emotional and tries to hard instead of doing what he does. Burress....ridiculous pass and catch multiple times...al was all over him most of that game. (which is why they didn't double, no one believed they could keep up perfect accuracy and fingertip catches)

I'll stand by my analysis. I think he's on his way out. 1) Teams have him figured out - they can motion him into bad coverage, 2) when he plays zone, he's awful, 3) He has really lost a full step, maybe two. If he doesn't get his hands on the WR, he's finished.

I hope I'm wrong.

[bobblehead]

Rand...you know politics, but you are off your rocker. Al Harris is a big time stud and should have been a multiple pro-bowler. Al is still a shutdown corner.

The only reason he has struggled with TO is the head games....he gets too emotional and tries to hard instead of doing what he does. Burress....ridiculous pass and catch multiple times...al was all over him most of that game. (which is why they didn't double, no one believed they could keep up perfect accuracy and fingertip catches)

I'll stand by my analysis. I think he's on his way out. 1) Teams have him figured out - they can motion him into bad coverage, 2) when he plays zone, he's awful, 3) He has really lost a full step, maybe two. If he doesn't get his hands on the WR, he's finished.

I hope I'm wrong.

well...i have to grant you that he is 34 and has lost a step, but i still believe he is near the top...how long that lasts is another issue. I think for THIS season he is still a stud and teams have not figured him out....unless you mean that they have figured out its a loss of down to pass at him.

[Guiness]

in case anyone hasn't mentioned it yet...

THIS IS A GOOD FUCKING PROBLEM TO HAVE!

:lol:

[mraynrand]

in case anyone hasn't mentioned it yet...

THIS IS A GOOD FUCKING PROBLEM TO HAVE!

:lol:

I don't know about that, but I can tell you a bad fucking problem to have: scabies - at least according to Partial.

[SnakeLH2006]

Rand...you know politics, but you are off your rocker. Al Harris is a big time stud and should have been a multiple pro-bowler. Al is still a shutdown corner.

The only reason he has struggled with TO is the head games....he gets too emotional and tries to hard instead of doing what he does. Burress....ridiculous pass and catch multiple times...al was all over him most of that game. (which is why they didn't double, no one believed they could keep up perfect accuracy and fingertip catches)

I'll stand by my analysis. I think he's on his way out. 1) Teams have him figured out - they can motion him into bad coverage, 2) when he plays zone, he's awful, 3) He has really lost a full step, maybe two. If he doesn't get his hands on the WR, he's finished.

I hope I'm wrong.

I agree it's 13-10 for T-Will...not saying he's better healthy...but AL is old, T-Will has shown he CAN handle playing the CB spot as the 2 option and done very damn well.... Al is slow and doesn't make ANY plays EVER in the INT game ya fucking EVER. At least we found a capable replacement as we have to find "2" guys in the next 2 years or so...At least Wood is playing at an All-Pro level thus far at 31. There's no way I would give Al the greenlight to start until he "proves" he's better than T-Will on many fronts......ain't gonna happen right now. I'm surprised, as are most, but T-Will owns Al and his ego till he's healthy and maybe here on out. IMO Al's done as a starter and even NFL player after 1 more year.

[bobblehead]

All that is true...next year it should be a wide open competition and may the winner make the pro-bowl.

If Al comes back and then struggles as the starter I wouldn't have a problem handing it back to TWill...but if Al shuts guys down, which he always has, I'll take the lack of picks and let him finish this season as the starter. I'll put money on him shutting down Buress if we play the Giants this post-season...that was the best game plax ever played. As my grandma used to say "sometimes you catch the bull on the wrong day"...not sure what that means, but she used it like it would apply to the Harris-Burress day.

[mraynrand]

All that is true...next year it should be a wide open competition and may the winner make the pro-bowl.

If Al comes back and then struggles as the starter I wouldn't have a problem handing it back to TWill...but if Al shuts guys down, which he always has, I'll take the lack of picks and let him finish this season as the starter. I'll put money on him shutting down Buress if we play the Giants this post-season...that was the best game plax ever played. As my grandma used to say "sometimes you catch the bull on the wrong day"...not sure what that means, but she used it like it would apply to the Harris-Burress day.

Worried more about the trend...

[MadtownPacker]

Unless Harris is 100% which I doubt, Tramon should be the starter. There is no reason to put Al in any danger. When he is ready he gets his job back but if he struggles Williams should get his shot. The DBs are flying around making plays. Hate to fix what aint broken.

[th87]

With Williams, you're seeing a more diverse defense. Some zone mixed in.

With Harris, it's straight up man to man, all the time.

Therefore, I think Williams should stay the starter.

[Fritz]

Aww, give Al some love. Give him his job back.

He can be a nickel next year.

[Bretsky]

Aww, give Al some love. Give him his job back.

He can be a nickel next year.


I'd give Al his job back as well; but Williams has shown he has the ability to be an effective starter

A good Defensive Coordinator will find ways to have both on the field and be effective

[Scott Campbell]

Expect to see the worst of me more often.


And here?

[MJZiggy]

Aww, give Al some love. Give him his job back.

He can be a nickel next year.


I'd give Al his job back as well; but Williams has shown he has the ability to be an effective starter

A good Defensive Coordinator will find ways to have both on the field and be effective

I thought Al already said he'd come back as the nickel back or in whatever capacity M3 wanted to use him just to get back on the field and if M3 wanted to ease him back in, that was fine with him.

[KYPack]

Aww, give Al some love. Give him his job back.

He can be a nickel next year.


I'd give Al his job back as well; but Williams has shown he has the ability to be an effective starter

A good Defensive Coordinator will find ways to have both on the field and be effective

Agree with the "Bman".

3 and 4 wides is so prevalent now you almost need 4 corners to be effective on D. There is a politically correct way to have TWill and Al get plenty of time with no loss of face to either guy.

[3irty1]

I don't think its going to be as clear as nickle or not. With three dependable corners I think we'll see more of a rotation than in previous years where our top two guys would play 95% of defensive snaps.