IS VANILLA BEND BUT DON'T BREAK BOB CAPABLE ?

[Bretsky]

No secret on where I stand on this, but curious to hear others views as well.

I watched the Giants last night; IMO they have one of the top DC's in the league. They took Westbrook out of the game.

BB's Patriots often come up with very effective schemes that do the same thing as the Giants


THEY CHOOSE ONE THING TO TAKE AWAY AND SUCCEED

They make something else beat them.

I'm not sure the Patriots really have that much more talent on the defensive side than we do. The Giants lost Strahan but are still more talented.

But we can't design a dam scheme to stop the run.
Not for the life of us.
And that's with two STUD CB's and an excelling safety.

We let a player dominate us and kick the crap out of us yesterday time after time after time.

And then he put a dagger in us when the whole world knew he was coming.

I don't see the creative schemes
I don't see the creaitve blitzes on the run and/or pass
I don't see the halftime adjustments
I don't see the job getting done


THOUGHTS ??

[Rastak]

Halftime adjustments is a good point. The Vikings tried to spread their recievers out which forced the safeties to play off the line a bit.

Forced is too strong a word. Given Frerotte's obvious off game perhaps they should have tried to make the Vikings throw.

The last four weeks they've been able to put a decent downfield attack on tape so they might have exploited it but who knows.

[Bretsky]

Halftime adjustments is a good point. The Vikings tried to spread their recievers out which forced the safeties to play off the line a bit.

Forced is too strong a word. Given Frerotte's obvious off game perhaps they should have tried to make the Vikings throw.
The last four weeks they've been able to put a decent downfield attack on tape so they might have exploited it but who knows.


What a noble idea; seeing how our CB's are the strength of our team........
Berrian has been wonderful for them but as a DC All Day Peterson puts 100X as much fear into me as a Ferrotte to Berrian connection.

[Gunakor]

No secret on where I stand on this, but curious to hear others views as well.

I watched the Giants last night; IMO they have one of the top DC's in the league. They took Westbrook out of the game.

BB's Patriots often come up with very effective schemes that do the same thing as the Giants


THEY CHOOSE ONE THING TO TAKE AWAY AND SUCCEED

They make something else beat them.

I'm not sure the Patriots really have that much more talent on the defensive side than we do. The Giants lost Strahan but are still more talented.

But we can't design a dam scheme to stop the run.
Not for the life of us.
And that's with two STUD CB's and an excelling safety.

We let a player dominate us and kick the crap out of us yesterday time after time after time.

And then he put a dagger in us when the whole world knew he was coming.

I don't see the creative schemes
I don't see the creaitve blitzes on the run and/or pass
I don't see the halftime adjustments
I don't see the job getting done


THOUGHTS ??

Remember when they effectively took LaDanian Tomlinson out of the game last season? They almost got beat by Antonio Gates, but they won and Sanders deserves a large share of the credit for the job he did on LT. The same can be said of Clinton Portis in the Washington game, when Chris Cooley almost beat us.

I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is that he can't take one opposing player out of the game without opening up another player for a career day.

He needs to figure out how to better attack the LOS without putting Bigby in the box all the time. Our bump and run coverage scheme only works if we have the safeties over the top in cover 2. Our front 4 has to be more physical at the line, and our LB's have to react quicker. They have no problem getting sideline to sideline, but they don't react to the ball carrier very well. AJ Hawk got abused a couple times by Peterson because he got turned around while Peterson ran by him. Bishop got burned for a long TD because of the same thing. Sanders shares some of the blame for technique, but I think the majority of the blame for that falls on the position coach, not the coordinator. I don't know if the scheme was wrong yesterday, because the front 7 weren't executing at all.

[Zool]

I hate to call upon grumpy smurf, but Wist is right on with his feelings about this D. Its frustrating to watch. They play well for 3.5 quarters against the Titans and then play prevent while Collins walks down the field on them twice in 2 drives. They play to not lose instead of playing to win.

[Bretsky]

I hate to call upon grumpy smurf, but Wist is right on with his feelings about this D. Its frustrating to watch. They play well for 3.5 quarters against the Titans and then play prevent while Collins walks down the field on them twice in 2 drives. They play to not lose instead of playing to win.


Yes, and Wist just states things much better than I do. It's not a system that will lead them to excel against good competition.

[Guiness]

As a general rule, I don't like the 'take one thing away' philosophy - because as much as some guys are better than others, and we bemoan how much some of the players suck at times... they're all NFL caliber players. The top 1% of 1% in the sport. And if you let any of them do their thing, they'll slay you.

HOWEVER our secondary had Ferotte's number. I do think the situation called for us to stack things out there. Bigby should've been at the line. Popp should never have left the game. Etc.

[Partial]

I hate to call upon grumpy smurf, but Wist is right on with his feelings about this D. Its frustrating to watch. They play well for 3.5 quarters against the Titans and then play prevent while Collins walks down the field on them twice in 2 drives. They play to not lose instead of playing to win.

Play well for 3.5 quarters? They played ok, but were gashed on the run. Until we can hold good running teams to below 100 yards a game consistently we will never win in the playoffs.

Bretsky, for the amount of talent we have on the D, the play has to be dissapointing. Kampman is one of the best ends in the league, Pickett and Jolly are both solid. We always get out muscled by physical teams ( Dallas last year, NY last year in the playoffs, Tenneessee last week, Minne this week, I predict Chicago and Jax in the weeks to come ). We need to change the type of players we draft/sign, as well as change schemes and philosophies.

Imagine if we were top 5 in stopping the run with that secondary in pass defense... my god... heaven on the football field!!!!

[Zool]

I hate to call upon grumpy smurf, but Wist is right on with his feelings about this D. Its frustrating to watch. They play well for 3.5 quarters against the Titans and then play prevent while Collins walks down the field on them twice in 2 drives. They play to not lose instead of playing to win.

Play well for 3.5 quarters? They played ok, but were gashed on the run. Until we can hold good running teams to below 100 yards a game consistently we will never win in the playoffs.

Do you even watch the games? Seriously. Just go here and look.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=281102010

[Partial]

I hate to call upon grumpy smurf, but Wist is right on with his feelings about this D. Its frustrating to watch. They play well for 3.5 quarters against the Titans and then play prevent while Collins walks down the field on them twice in 2 drives. They play to not lose instead of playing to win.

Play well for 3.5 quarters? They played ok, but were gashed on the run. Until we can hold good running teams to below 100 yards a game consistently we will never win in the playoffs.

Do you even watch the games? Seriously. Just go here and look.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=281102010

Bend but don't break? The point is we were getting beaten up big time on those drives and thats what leads to the end of the game breakdown.

[Zool]

I hate to call upon grumpy smurf, but Wist is right on with his feelings about this D. Its frustrating to watch. They play well for 3.5 quarters against the Titans and then play prevent while Collins walks down the field on them twice in 2 drives. They play to not lose instead of playing to win.

Play well for 3.5 quarters? They played ok, but were gashed on the run. Until we can hold good running teams to below 100 yards a game consistently we will never win in the playoffs.

Do you even watch the games? Seriously. Just go here and look.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=281102010

Bend but don't break? The point is we were getting beaten up big time on those drives and thats what leads to the end of the game breakdown.

220 yards for the game before the last 2 drives. I'd take that every week.

[gbgary]

the Packer offense is the Packer defense's worst enemy. the inability to sustain drives catches up to you in the third and forth quarters. now playing soft, in the end, against tenn pissed me off and they backed away from minn and let peterson free, a time or two, and that's on the coaches.

[mraynrand]

I hate to call upon grumpy smurf, but Wist is right on with his feelings about this D. Its frustrating to watch. They play well for 3.5 quarters against the Titans and then play prevent while Collins walks down the field on them twice in 2 drives. They play to not lose instead of playing to win.

Play well for 3.5 quarters? They played ok, but were gashed on the run. Until we can hold good running teams to below 100 yards a game consistently we will never win in the playoffs.

Do you even watch the games? Seriously. Just go here and look.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=281102010

Bend but don't break? The point is we were getting beaten up big time on those drives and thats what leads to the end of the game breakdown.

220 yards for the game before the last 2 drives. I'd take that every week.

The D was responsible for 13 points last week in regulation and was responsible for giving up 24 against the Vikings - not to mention scoring and keeping the Pack in a game in which the awfense was abysmal. Why anyone wants to focus on the defense at this point - after 3 very good weeks of play - is beyond me. The offense needs to pull their collective head out of their ass and score some damn points.

P.S. The place kicker had a chance to win the game with a very makeable kick and he screwed it up.

Bend don't break is fine with an aggressive, point generating defense, but they aren't - and never will be in their current form - a dominant defense. This is supposed to be a team that protects it's defense with good offense, just as much if not more than the reverse.

[red]

IS VANILLA BEND BUT DON'T BREAK BOB CAPABLE ?

NO

[Brohm]

Emphatic no.

Our defense has never played up to the talent level it has under Sanders. Should be replaced.

[Bretsky]

IS VANILLA BEND BUT DON'T BREAK BOB CAPABLE ?

NO



IS THAT YOUR FINAL ANSWER ?

[red]

YES

[Freak Out]

Brees was right. He is better than our best.

[]{ilr]3]

Brees is great, but its really that O-line that should get the credit.

Average sacs per drop back in the league is 1 for every 16. Saints are 1 for every 50.

The packers O-line must be 1 for every 3 or 4 and some of those our own defensive line forgets what side there on and sacs him too.

[Redbelly]

I never cared for the Bates scheme or the continuation of it with Sanders - but I wanted to hold judgement. Well I am ready to judge - get rid of BS

If Andy Reid gets fired after the season (which looks like a real possibility) maybe Jim Johnson would be available. I've always liked the way the Eagles play defense

While I am throwing darts at our defense - how about the linebackers - as much as I wanted to see Brady P. be successful - I am sick and tired of watching him miss tackles and slide off of ball carriers. Hawk's best year in terms of tackles was his rookie year - since then he's regressed in this system

Our best and most aggressive linebacker is the new guy - Chillar. I just hope he can continue to overcome his coaching

Yup - I am all for seeing a change at the DC position - no more contain and hold the point - let's play downhill and de-cleat somebody

[prsnfoto]

I never cared for the Bates scheme or the continuation of it with Sanders - but I wanted to hold judgement. Well I am ready to judge - get rid of BS

If Andy Reid gets fired after the season (which looks like a real possibility) maybe Jim Johnson would be available. I've always liked the way the Eagles play defense

While I am throwing darts at our defense - how about the linebackers - as much as I wanted to see Brady P. be successful - I am sick and tired of watching him miss tackles and slide off of ball carriers. Hawk's best year in terms of tackles was his rookie year - since then he's regressed in this system

Our best and most aggressive linebacker is the new guy - Chillar. I just hope he can continue to overcome his coaching

Yup - I am all for seeing a change at the DC position - no more contain and hold the point - let's play downhill and de-cleat somebody





I agree with you but there is one problem besides Kampman and Jenkins when healthy there is no talent in the front 7 to play aggressive with coaches have to scheme with the players they are dealt they have had two GM's in a row who can't deal.

[Redbelly]

Good point - we'd need some new personnel - but I believe the two you mention plus Hawk and Chillar could play downhill if they were coached to do so - I still hold out hope for Hawk

The rest would have to be replaced - because like you said - the players aren't there to play an attack scheme. But I'd really like to see a new DC and lets draft and lets buy some players. As much as TT relies on the draft - couldn't it be said that 3 of our 4 best performers on defense were FA aquisitions - Woodson, Harris, Chillar - Collins being a draft pick

PS - Say what you want about Shotty as a coach - but his group is the silver lining on this cloud - and they play very aggressive

[Freak Out]

If Andy Reid gets fired after the season (which looks like a real possibility) maybe Jim Johnson would be available. I've always liked the way the Eagles play defense.


I was thinking the same thing earlier...if the situation in Philly melts down we should make a run at Johnson if possible.

[wist43]

I've said all along how much I hate this scheme...

To be effective, you have to have pro bowl calibur defensive linemen across the board... very difficult to assemble that much DL talent.

Beyond that, wrt to the LB's... all this scheme asks them to do is chase and tackle, which in and if itself breeds passivity in terms of blitzing.

All in all, this is a very predictable scheme, and against quality offensive opponents will be picked apart with regularity.

[Bretsky]

I've been a long advocate of finding an upgrade to Vanilla Bob

My views originated in 2006. In 2006 our defense gave up the following points in the first 12 games

26, 34, 24, 31, 23, 24, 14, 27, 17, 35, 34, 38

It was apparent IMO that Vanilla Bob was not the guy
The media lit him up; it was impossible to ignore the results.

And I commented that I almost hoped the stretch of the next four games against pathetic offenses would not cause the Packer brass to ignore what happened through the rest of the season.

In the last four games, Green Bay played four terrible offenses and 3 of them were in cold and bad weather. They gave up 19 points to San Francisco on the road, then Nine Points to a pathetic Detroit team at home, then 7 points to a Vikings team on a terrible weather day, and then 7 points at Chicago against a poor Bear offense.

I could see the same thing happening this year.

We play Houston in bad weather today, then a struggling Jacksonville team, and then the Lions and Bears in cold weather.

I can see the Packers playing better and ending up 9-7; I can see
2006 happening again.

[Bretsky]

Is it time for me to start a Club yet ?

Shall we form a political party on this :lol:

[arcilite]

Is it time for me to start a Club yet ?

Shall we form a political party on this :lol:

I think we should picket outside the stadium

[Partial]

Vanilla Bob has gotta go!

[cpk1994]

I've been a long advocate of finding an upgrade to Vanilla Bob

My views originated in 2006. In 2006 our defense gave up the following points in the first 12 games

26, 34, 24, 31, 23, 24, 14, 27, 17, 35, 34, 38

It was apparent IMO that Vanilla Bob was not the guy
The media lit him up; it was impossible to ignore the results.

And I commented that I almost hoped the stretch of the next four games against pathetic offenses would not cause the Packer brass to ignore what happened through the rest of the season.

In the last four games, Green Bay played four terrible offenses and 3 of them were in cold and bad weather. They gave up 19 points to San Francisco on the road, then Nine Points to a pathetic Detroit team at home, then 7 points to a Vikings team on a terrible weather day, and then 7 points at Chicago against a poor Bear offense.

I could see the same thing happening this year.

We play Houston in bad weather today, then a struggling Jacksonville team, and then the Lions and Bears in cold weather.

I can see the Packers playing better and ending up 9-7; I can see
2006 happening again.My god, I am agreeing with you again? I must be getting sent to hell :D

[wist43]

There's no room within the scheme to adjust in terms of generating pressure, should the DL stagnate.

The LB's aren't blitzers, and they seem determined to use Rouse as more of CB than a downhill S. Rouse could be a weapon IMO, but they have him playing out of a backpedal almost exclusively.

The scheme is junk w/o a DL that is playing lights out... as I said, in this salary cap era, tough to assemble that much DL talent.