Who is a christian and what does that mean

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Our good buddy Howard has informed me that the United Church of Christ aren't christians.

That begs the question of what is a christian and who gets to determine it.

Please identify your branch of christianity so Howard can let me know if you count as christians.

And, if you aren't christians by Howard's defintion/determination will you be open to conversion?

[BallHawk]

One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

[HowardRoark]

Our good buddy Howard has informed me that the United Church of Christ aren't christians.

Sorry. I thought you were talking about Unitarians. Ballhawk stated it. Pithy, but a lot behind it.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Our good buddy Howard has informed me that the United Church of Christ aren't christians.

Sorry. I thought you were talking about Unitarians. Ballhawk stated it. Pithy, but a lot behind it.

Sure you did. I stated UCC and then wrote it out.

So, Unitarians, Pentecostals,etc. aren't christians? Why aren't they..they follow jesus according to what ballhawk stated. I don't see anything about the trinity in his description.

Are Catholics...they pray to saints you know.

[HowardRoark]

So, Unitarians, Pentecostals,etc. aren't christians? Why aren't they..they follow jesus according to what ballhawk stated. I don't see anything about the trinity in his description.

Ty, you don't give a shit about any of this, so I don't even know why I respond. The teachings of Christ are in the Bible, read John 1:1, it talks about Jesus being God. There are plenty of verses talking about the Holy Spirit too. If you don't believe Jesus was God, you aren't believing the teachings of Jesus. He wasn't (or didn't claim to be) some "good guy" moral teacher or prophet. He claimed to be God. He either was or he wasn't. There either is a God or there isn't. Your little throw away lines show your intellectual laziness.

Unitarians don't believe Jesus was God.

Again, you really don't give a rat's ass, but that is accounted for too:


Psalm 14

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

[mraynrand]

I thought the Bush theocracy was overthrown. Peace and serenity have returned.

[MadScientist]

So, Unitarians, Pentecostals,etc. aren't christians? Why aren't they..they follow jesus according to what ballhawk stated. I don't see anything about the trinity in his description.
A lot of Unitarians are humanists who don't believe in a god. Definitely not a Christian denomination.

As far Christianity goes, the fact that there are such diverse sects that claim to be Christian, strongly suggests that Christianity is in many ways a reflection on the believers rather than a guide.

[Freak Out]

I thought the Bush theocracy was overthrown. Peace and serenity have returned.

We have a couple of months to go yet........but who's counting.

[Patler]

Are Catholics...they pray to saints you know.

Catholics "pray to" saints not as one prays to God, but believing in an afterlife the Catholics pry to saints asking for their intervention with God with whom the saints are present. The saints are asked to intercede on the mortals behalf. There is only one God for a Catholic, but there are saints and angels who might lend a helping hand!

[texaspackerbacker]

One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

Pretty close.

I would just modify it by inserting the word DIVINITY between "belief in" and "Jesus as Christ", and by changing the "or" to "and".

If you want more controversy or diversity of answers, Tyrone, you should as what are those teachings?

[Iron Mike]

Are Catholics...they pray to saints you know.

Catholics "pray to" saints not as one prays to God, but believing in an afterlife the Catholics pry to saints asking for their intervention with God with whom the saints are present. The saints are asked to intercede on the mortals behalf. There is only one God for a Catholic, but there are saints and angels who might lend a helping hand!

Hmmm......and what does God say in John 14:6?

[mraynrand]

Are Catholics...they pray to saints you know.

Some of them play bingo too.

[mraynrand]

What does God say in Ecclesiastes 6:2?

[HarveyWallbangers]

One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

Actually, it's one who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. There aren't "many roads" that lead to heaven. Just living your life according to the teachings of Jesus does not make you a Christian.

[mraynrand]

One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

Actually, it's one who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. There aren't "many roads" that lead to heaven. Just living your life according to the teachings of Jesus does not make you a Christian.


NOW he tells me - and after I gave away all my possessions.

[arcilite]

I hate religion

[sheepshead]

I hate religion

If you had some you would learn not to hate.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I hate religion

Arcilite, I hope you "see the light." It's a lot easier going through this life, with its many ups and downs, knowing that He is guiding us. At least, for me it is. I didn't grow up in a religious family. I considered myself agnostic through much of my younger years, but now I don't know what I'd do without knowing He is with me. God, family, and then the Green Bay Packers. I'm with Vince on that one.

[Zool]

He might have been joking guys. Just a hunch.

[MadScientist]

I hate religion

If you had some you would learn not to hate.
Yea, highly religious people never hate. :roll:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Yea, highly religious people never hate. :roll:

I'm guessing a lot of them aren't true Christians. BTW, Christians aren't infallible. All people sin in some way. That's why Jesus died on the cross for us.

[sheepshead]

I hate religion

If you had some you would learn not to hate.



Yea, highly religious people never hate. :roll:


I said "learn", what one does with the lesson is another matter.

[Cheesehead Craig]

One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

Actually, it's one who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. There aren't "many roads" that lead to heaven. Just living your life according to the teachings of Jesus does not make you a Christian.

Yep, belief is the key. Not by works but by faith alone.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Yep, belief is the key. Not by works but by faith alone.

Evangelicals think this way. But other Christians, especially Catholics, believe that your acts here on earth very much count. They divide sin into categories: mortal sins, venial sins, plus one other category that escapes me. Confession takes care of any priors, so you have a better argument to make before St. Peter when your case goes to trial.

I don't mean to make fun of either way of thinking, just pointing out that there is no agreement among Christians about getting into heaven, Cheesehead's view is held by just a portion of all Christians.

[GoPackGo]

One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

Actually, it's one who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. There aren't "many roads" that lead to heaven. Just living your life according to the teachings of Jesus does not make you a Christian.

Yep, belief is the key. Not by works but by faith alone.

I'm an Evangelical Christian and I agree with all of this. I don't go to church much though. I don't believe going to church is neccessary or required to get to Heaven.

[arcilite]

I hate religion

Arcilite, I hope you "see the light." It's a lot easier going through this life, with its many ups and downs, knowing that He is guiding us. At least, for me it is. I didn't grow up in a religious family. I considered myself agnostic through much of my younger years, but now I don't know what I'd do without knowing He is with me. God, family, and then the Green Bay Packers. I'm with Vince on that one.

going through life thinking im following some invisible guy in the clouds? no thanks

ill live my life by my own code

[mraynrand]

One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus

Actually, it's one who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. There aren't "many roads" that lead to heaven. Just living your life according to the teachings of Jesus does not make you a Christian.

Yep, belief is the key. Not by works but by faith alone.

I'm an Evangelical Christian and I agree with all of this. I don't go to church much though. I don't believe going to church is neccessary or required to get to Heaven.

How do you feel about the Theocracy coming to an end?

[BallHawk]

Question posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other man is, more or less, a bum. He is really only concerned about himself and how his life is going. He could care less about other peoples' lives. He goes to church every Sunday and strongly identifies Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Which man is more deserving of a place in heaven?

[retailguy]

Question posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other man is, more or less, a bum. He is really only concerned about himself and how his life is going. He could care less about other peoples' lives. He goes to church every Sunday and strongly identifies Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Which man is more deserving of a place in heaven?

neither. That's not what it is about. It is a free gift that NEITHER man can earn.

[mraynrand]

Question posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other man is, more or less, a bum. He is really only concerned about himself and how his life is going. He could care less about other peoples' lives. He goes to church every Sunday and strongly identifies Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Which man is more deserving of a place in heaven?

What do YOU think?


The answer depends on what you believe to be true about heaven and salvation.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Question posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other man is, more or less, a bum. He is really only concerned about himself and how his life is going. He could care less about other peoples' lives. He goes to church every Sunday and strongly identifies Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Which man is more deserving of a place in heaven?

Strongly identifies? Does that mean truly believes in his heart? I'd argue that if he truly believed it, he wouldn't live his life without care for others.


Ephesians 4:31-32

Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior.

Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.


Proverbs 21:13

Those who shut their ears to the cries of the poor will be ignored in their own time of need.

[HowardRoark]

Which man is more deserving of a place in heaven?

Neither. Nobody deserves heaven.

[BallHawk]

Question #2 posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other also donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He is a true believer that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior.

Is one man more deserving of a place in heaven than the other?

[HowardRoark]

Is one man more deserving of a place in heaven than the other?

No.

[MadScientist]

I hate religion

If you had some you would learn not to hate.



Yea, highly religious people never hate. :roll:


I said "learn", what one does with the lesson is another matter.
It depends on which lessons they learn.
"If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" [Luke xiv. 26.]

"Think not that I am come to send peace bn earth; I came not to send peace, but a, sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's foes they shall be of his own household." [Matthew x. 34-36.]

"Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my sake, shall receive an hundred fold, and shall inherit everlasting life." [Matthew xix. 29.]

“But these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them before me.” (Luke 19:27)

And this does not even touch the old testament (God Hates Fags anyone?). Which can't be tossed, since it is foundation for the New Testament.

You can make a case for just about anything in the Bible, which is a strong case for not believing in the god it describes.

[BallHawk]

What do YOU think?

The answer depends on what you believe to be true about heaven and salvation.

Well, my personal belief is that heaven is not based on what religion you adhere to or what deity you call your lord, it is about your acts on earth that decide what the afterlife holds for you.

What I don't understand is any religion saying that if you don't accept their supreme god as the one and only than you will not achieve the same afterlife as somebody that does believe, no matter how those people have lived their life.

[arcilite]

You can make a case for just about anything in the Bible, which is a strong case for not believing in the god it describes.

This.

[retailguy]

Question #2 posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other also donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He is a true believer that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior.

Is one man more deserving of a place in heaven than the other?

Still the same answer as #1. Salvation is a gift that you cannot earn. You are missing the point. Your analogies are good, provided, that you hold the ability to "earn" something. But you don't. That is the purpose of grace. Analogies such as yours are something that mainstream Christianity still struggles with.

[retailguy]

You can make a case for just about anything in the Bible, which is a strong case for not believing in the god it describes.

This.

If you continually take things out of context and don't understand the meaning of Jewish society in the time of Jesus, then, yes, you can arrive at this conclusion.

However, if you follow the most recognized theological interpretations that take these things into account, you will not arrive at these conclusions.

Quite honestly, there isn't another book on the face of the earth that has been scrutinized more than the Bible. There are literally thousands of scholars that have spent their lives interpreting and analyzing what the Bible says. The majority have come to a consensus on "most" issues.

[MadScientist]

I hate religion

Arcilite, I hope you "see the light." It's a lot easier going through this life, with its many ups and downs, knowing that He is guiding us. At least, for me it is. I didn't grow up in a religious family. I considered myself agnostic through much of my younger years, but now I don't know what I'd do without knowing He is with me. God, family, and then the Green Bay Packers. I'm with Vince on that one.

going through life thinking im following some invisible guy in the clouds? no thanks

ill live my life by my own code
There's always the unified church of Lambeau. It has weekly services 20+ times a year (usually on Sunday), all believers hope and try to make a pilgrimage to the holy shrine, and during most of the services, a million people will scream "Jesus Crist!" at least once or twice.

[sheepshead]

Ohhh yeah dats a beautiful ting alright.

[GoPackGo]

:repost:

[GoPackGo]

I'm an Evangelical Christian and I agree with all of this. I don't go to church much though. I don't believe going to church is neccessary or required to get to Heaven.

How do you feel about the Theocracy coming to an end?

Depends on what you mean by theocracy coming to an end.

The Media would lead you to believe it, but despite the Catholic church's highly publicized mistakes, organized religion isn't going anywhere.

or

I think separation of church and state is everything and I hope the church's part in government does come to an end in my lifetime.

[Harlan Huckleby]

why would God give a flying fuck if you believed in him?

and in particular, why would God make non-believers burn in hell for eternity. That seems awfully small of Him.

[MadScientist]

You can make a case for just about anything in the Bible, which is a strong case for not believing in the god it describes.

This.

If you continually take things out of context and don't understand the meaning of Jewish society in the time of Jesus, then, yes, you can arrive at this conclusion.

However, if you follow the most recognized theological interpretations that take these things into account, you will not arrive at these conclusions.

Quite honestly, there isn't another book on the face of the earth that has been scrutinized more than the Bible. There are literally thousands of scholars that have spent their lives interpreting and analyzing what the Bible says. The majority have come to a consensus on "most" issues.

If all the scholars agree so much, then why are there so many different Christian denominations, preaching different things, all of which they defend using the bible?

[retailguy]

You can make a case for just about anything in the Bible, which is a strong case for not believing in the god it describes.

This.

If you continually take things out of context and don't understand the meaning of Jewish society in the time of Jesus, then, yes, you can arrive at this conclusion.

However, if you follow the most recognized theological interpretations that take these things into account, you will not arrive at these conclusions.

Quite honestly, there isn't another book on the face of the earth that has been scrutinized more than the Bible. There are literally thousands of scholars that have spent their lives interpreting and analyzing what the Bible says. The majority have come to a consensus on "most" issues.

If all the scholars agree so much, then why are there so many different Christian denominations, preaching different things, all of which they defend using the bible?

If I had a dollar for every questionable defense of the Bible I've heard I'd be Bill Gates weathly and I'm nowhere near a scholar.

Scholar's disagree about things. There is little doubt about that. But truthfully, when you look at the differences between denominations they are frequently "minor". Christian denominations don't typically disagree on the "big stuff". They do on the "little stuff". Baptism is a perfect example. Christian denominations typically don't disagree about the "need" for baptism, however, they do disagree about "when" that baptism should occur.

When I talked about scholarly agreement, I was refering to larger issues, such as those that athiests and agnostics point towards to question the very existence of God.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Question posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other man is, more or less, a bum. He is really only concerned about himself and how his life is going. He could care less about other peoples' lives. He goes to church every Sunday and strongly identifies Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Which man is more deserving of a place in heaven?

Heaven is a place on earth. That's what i learned from Belinda Carlisle.

[MJZiggy]

This made me think of something I saw recently... (not language for work)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o&feature=related

[hoosier]

why would God give a flying fuck if you believed in him?

and in particular, why would God make non-believers burn in hell for eternity. That seems awfully small of Him.


I'll answer this one: because God's a jealous god.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Yep, belief is the key. Not by works but by faith alone.

Evangelicals think this way. But other Christians, especially Catholics, believe that your acts here on earth very much count. They divide sin into categories: mortal sins, venial sins, plus one other category that escapes me. Confession takes care of any priors, so you have a better argument to make before St. Peter when your case goes to trial.

I don't mean to make fun of either way of thinking, just pointing out that there is no agreement among Christians about getting into heaven, Cheesehead's view is held by just a portion of all Christians.
No offense taken Harlan. I was pointing out my beliefs and my agreement with Harvey.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Question #2 posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other also donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He is a true believer that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior.

Is one man more deserving of a place in heaven than the other?
I'll go with my earlier statement. You have to believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ and that he has saved you from your sins. Just being a definition of a good person through human terms is not enough. That said, it's not my call who gets into Heaven.

[MJZiggy]

Those poor Japanese, Chinese, Africans, Persians, Jewish and Indians....All those billions of people with little opportunity to be saved.

[HowardRoark]

Those poor Japanese, Chinese, Africans, Persians, Jewish and Indians....All those billions of people with little opportunity to be saved.

The hardest place to be a Christian these days is the U.S.A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country

I know in the echo chamber it sounds good to talk about color of skin for everything, but it really doesn't matter. Carry on.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I know in the echo chamber it sounds good to talk about color of skin for everything, but it really doesn't matter. Carry on.

78% of Kenyans. The same as the USA. I have a lot of Kenyan friends. Kind of funny to find out their real names... years after meeting them. They take Christian names as youngsters. Most use that name when they come over to the USA.

[retailguy]

Those poor Japanese, Chinese, Africans, Persians, Jewish and Indians....All those billions of people with little opportunity to be saved.


I used to wonder the same thing. Definitively I guess we won't find out until "judgment day". But the scholars that I've read tend to believe that they'll be judged differently than those that knew and rejected God.

I found this paragraph that summed it up fairly well (at least from my perspective). You can draw your own conclusions.


Summary

Only God knows how individuals will fare on the day of Judgment. Such matters are no proper concern of ours. 'Vengeance is mine, ' says the Lord, 'I will repay' (Rom 12:19). Yet we have every reason to believe that God will do what is right. Everyone has enough knowledge of God in order to seek after him but the general situation is that men do not, even though their consciences condemn them. Hence we are called to proclaim the Gospel and urge that men and women be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20). Certainly, those who have heard the Gospel and rejected God's offer of forgiveness will be judged on a totally different basis from those who while remaining in substantial darkness earnestly seek the truth, confess their sins and cast themselves on the mercy of God.

You can read the rest of the article here if you have any interest:

http://www.cmf.org.uk/outreach/content.asp?context=article&id=1302

[Iron Mike]

why would God give a flying fuck if you believed in him?

and in particular, why would God make non-believers burn in hell for eternity. That seems awfully small of Him.


I'll answer this one: because God's a jealous god.

Exodus 34:14 God's name is Jealous.

[Iron Mike]

What does God say in Ecclesiastes 6:2?

Solomon is speaking is Ecclesiastes.

[mraynrand]

What does God say in Ecclesiastes 6:2?

Solomon is speaking is Ecclesiastes.

It was a trick question. You win the prize.

[Iron Mike]

What does God say in Ecclesiastes 6:2?

Solomon is speaking is Ecclesiastes.

It was a trick question. You win the prize.

Can I have my screen name changed to "bible-thumping rat?" 8-)

[mraynrand]

dp

[mraynrand]

What does God say in Ecclesiastes 6:2?

Solomon is speaking is Ecclesiastes.

It was a trick question. You win the prize.

Can I have my screen name changed to "bible-thumping rat?" 8-)

New avatar?

http://bp2.blogger.com/_11-nzoYFuQU/RxS15sAKzeI/AAAAAAAABVU/CQKlSOTo6ow/s1600-h/Fire+and+Brimstone.bmp

[Harlan Huckleby]

The hardest place to be a Christian these days is the U.S.A.

Maybe some day a Christian will be elected president, that could help change things.

[mraynrand]

The hardest place to be a Christian these days is the U.S.A.

Maybe some day a Christian will be elected president, that could help change things.

Please. The days of despotic Theocratic rule are almost over. The sweet, sweet smell of secular freedom is in the air.

[Cy]

Question posed to the panel.

There are two men.

One donates heavily to charity, is involved in his community, always helps others, and lives a good and moral life. He does not identify Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

The other man is, more or less, a bum. He is really only concerned about himself and how his life is going. He could care less about other peoples' lives. He goes to church every Sunday and strongly identifies Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Which man is more deserving of a place in heaven?'

Cy: Ask the thief on the cross.

[Tarlam!]

Nothing to do with Christianity, but, a great opportunity to share my favourite prayer with you. This really gives me nourishment for my soul.


Psalm 91

1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

2 I will say of God, “He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.”

3 For He will deliver you from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with His feathers. Under His wings you will take refuge. His faithfulness is your shield and rampart.

5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day;

6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that wastes at noonday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it will not come near you.

8 You will only look with your eyes, And see the recompense of the wicked.

9 Because you have made God your refuge, And the Most High your dwelling place,

10 No evil shall happen to you, Neither shall any plague come near your dwelling.

11 For He will give his angels charge over you, To guard you in all your ways.

12 They will bear you up in their hands, So that you won’t dash your foot against a stone.

13 You will tread on the lion and cobra. You will trample the young lion and the serpent underfoot.

14 “Because he has set his love on Me, therefore I will deliver him. I will set him on high, because he has known My name.

15 He will call on Me, and I will answer him. I will be with him in trouble. I will deliver him, and honor him.

16 I will satisfy him with long life, And show him My salvation.”

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://orangecow.org/pythonet/pics/dvd/briandvdpic2.jpg

"He has given us a sign, he has given us a shoe!"

[arcilite]

I follow the church of the FSM.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[LL2]

Nothing to do with Christianity, but, a great opportunity to share my favourite prayer with you. This really gives me nourishment for my soul.


Psalm 91

1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

2 I will say of God, “He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust.”

3 For He will deliver you from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with His feathers. Under His wings you will take refuge. His faithfulness is your shield and rampart.

5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day;

6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that wastes at noonday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it will not come near you.

8 You will only look with your eyes, And see the recompense of the wicked.

9 Because you have made God your refuge, And the Most High your dwelling place,

10 No evil shall happen to you, Neither shall any plague come near your dwelling.

11 For He will give his angels charge over you, To guard you in all your ways.

12 They will bear you up in their hands, So that you won’t dash your foot against a stone.

13 You will tread on the lion and cobra. You will trample the young lion and the serpent underfoot.

14 “Because he has set his love on Me, therefore I will deliver him. I will set him on high, because he has known My name.

15 He will call on Me, and I will answer him. I will be with him in trouble. I will deliver him, and honor him.

16 I will satisfy him with long life, And show him My salvation.”

I think this passage is often quoted. I consider myself a Christian, and even graduated from a Christian High School. My family goes to church weekly. I am far, far from perfect. I agree with most of what Retail and Harvey have been saying.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I follow the church of the FSM.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Behold his awesome noodley appendage!!

[GK]

Those poor Japanese, Chinese, Africans, Persians, Jewish and Indians....All those billions of people with little opportunity to be saved.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that were doing the whole "snarky, postmodern, ironic smart aleck" bit, which is, near as I can tell, the only "argument" against Christianity in the 21st century. We Christians know that stuff goes over well with your guys, but for those of us who are sincere and think seriously and deeply about what is right and what is wrong, well, we find it tedious.

Because I am sure you don't really think there are no Christians in Japan, China, Africa, Iran, India, or amongst Jewish people.

So given that ethnicity is not a barrier to Christian belief (Holy cow, I cannot believe that I am having this first grade level argument with someone. Again, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were being a smart aleck.), what exactly is it that you are saying? Perhaps you are making the rather old argument that there are a lot of people who lived in different times and different places, and would have no idea what Christianity is all about, and thus it is cruel to assume they could not have access to the eternal happiness that our Christianity promises. Is that the heart of your argument? I think it is.

I hate to break it to you, but your argument is not new. It has been confronted over and over again by serious Christians for about, oh, a thousand years. Sorry.

On the bright side, you (and Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris) have added the new twist of saying it with a smart aleck, "I'm better than all this" attitude. Kudos to you. We're all impressed.

So I could walk you through the Church's thousand year old belief about your complaint, which, as far as I am concerned, is well thought out and completely rational. But I am not going to waste my time if the ground rules of this debate are, "You ridicule me, then I ridicule you."

I find ridicule to be much easier than well thought out philosophical inquiry. The Church leaders have chosen the latter, which is what they always do. You and your buddies Hitchens and Harris have chosen the former, which is the realm of the intellectually lazy and morally arrogant. I am happy to join you, because the Church's way is difficult, and I am tired.

So, my response to you is, "The Christian Church is thriving in other nations, and is particularly thriving on the African continent. Christianity tends to thrive in areas where the dangers of life are apparent. Atheism is thriving among spoiled, pampered beneficiaries of the fruits of Western civilization. It is easy to be an atheist as you listen to your iPod in a loft condominium, while you sip a nice 1997 California Cabernet and watch a Bourne movie on Blu-ray. The new atheism is nothing more than an intellectually and morally slothful reaction to the plush luxuries of a civilization built by people much greater than the shortsighted and thankless current generation."

[MadScientist]

So, my response to you is, "The Christian Church is thriving in other nations, and is particularly thriving on the African continent. Christianity tends to thrive in areas where the dangers of life are apparent. Atheism is thriving among spoiled, pampered beneficiaries of the fruits of Western civilization. "
So religion thrives where people are desperate. (I used religion as it's not just Christianity that thrives in these conditions). It doesn't doesn't add any truth to it. Desperate cancer patients often turn to quack treatments. That doesn't make the quack treatments work. All the belief in the world won't change reality. You could get all the Packer fans in the world to believe that the Packers won SB32 over Denver, but that will not make it so.

[hoosier]

So, my response to you is, "The Christian Church is thriving in other nations, and is particularly thriving on the African continent. Christianity tends to thrive in areas where the dangers of life are apparent. Atheism is thriving among spoiled, pampered beneficiaries of the fruits of Western civilization. "
So religion thrives where people are desperate. (I used religion as it's not just Christianity that thrives in these conditions). It doesn't doesn't add any truth to it. Desperate cancer patients often turn to quack treatments. That doesn't make the quack treatments work. All the belief in the world won't change reality. You could get all the Packer fans in the world to believe that the Packers won SB32 over Denver, but that will not make it so.

To be fair it should be pointed out that belief and faith have been shown to make a real difference for people in desperate situations. Scientific studies have shown that cancer patients who profess a strong belief that some higher power is looking out for them tend to have better outcomes than those who feel only hopelessness. At an intuitive level, it makes perfect sense that the same logic would hold for healthy people living in dismal conditions: those for whom faith plays an important role in their lives tend to have more positive outlooks and tend to do better. This isn't an argument for Christianity, just pointing out that faith in something (not necessarily the Christian God) can have real effects in the world.

And I say having never practiced any religion and having no belief in any higher power.

[HarveyWallbangers]

And I say having never practiced any religion and having no belief in any higher power.

That's something that my agnostic or atheist friends will acknowledge. I have an agnostic friend who said that his formerly alcoholic father-in-law accepted Jesus Christ as his savior several years ago and hasn't had a drop of alcohol since. I'm not saying that's the only way to beat it, but it seems to be one of the better remedies. Josh Hamilton is a well-known example of what you are talking about.

[Freak Out]

And I say having never practiced any religion and having no belief in any higher power.

That's something that my agnostic or atheist friends will acknowledge. I have an agnostic friend who said that his formerly alcoholic father-in-law accepted Jesus Christ as his savior several years ago and hasn't had a drop of alcohol since. I'm not saying that's the only way to beat it, but it seems to be one of the better remedies. Josh Hamilton is a well-known example of what you are talking about.

I quit smoking years ago by going to a quack hypnotist......I sat through an hour of this guys BS thinking I had just been robbed of $50....of course I left and never lit up again.

[GK]

So, my response to you is, "The Christian Church is thriving in other nations, and is particularly thriving on the African continent. Christianity tends to thrive in areas where the dangers of life are apparent. Atheism is thriving among spoiled, pampered beneficiaries of the fruits of Western civilization. "
So religion thrives where people are desperate. (I used religion as it's not just Christianity that thrives in these conditions). It doesn't doesn't add any truth to it. Desperate cancer patients often turn to quack treatments. That doesn't make the quack treatments work. All the belief in the world won't change reality. You could get all the Packer fans in the world to believe that the Packers won SB32 over Denver, but that will not make it so.

"So religion thrives where people are desperate."

Yes! Thank you for stating Christian doctrine to a "T."

Christianity does in fact thrive where people are desperate. It always has, and it always will. In fact, that is the heart of the Christian message. The Christian message, aka The Gospel, aka The Good News, is as follows:

1) Mankind is created by and loved by God
2) Man has been given the gift of free will, and he has the right to choose to do either good or evil
3) Mankind has a propensity to choose evil, because everyone is inherently selfish
4) God forgives this sin, inherent in everyone, and has created a route (pathway, doorway, etc.) that can help us all overcome it
5) All we have to do is be humble and acknowledge our faults, and God will make us better

That's it. And yes, it appeals to the desperate. The question then is: Who is living in a fantasy world? Is it the humble alcoholic who sees himself as a flawed creature and hands his wretched being over to his Creator, or is it the 28 year old web designer in San Diego, CA, living in a beautiful home overlooking the ocean, and sipping fine wine while choosing which new pair of shoes to buy? Which of these people is living in an unreal fantasy?

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.

Or better yet, think about the last time you flew on a commercial flight. Let's say you flew first class. You're sitting there, the flight attendant brings you a glass of wine, you're watching a movie on your laptop, and occasionally chatting with the pleasant businessman sitting next to you. You are thinking about the week of skiing at Whistler that awaits you. Suddenly you hit turbulence, and some alarms sound on the airplane. The plane quickly drops 5,000 feet, and the flight attendants look scared.

One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?

[texaspackerbacker]

Those poor Japanese, Chinese, Africans, Persians, Jewish and Indians....All those billions of people with little opportunity to be saved.

This, like so much negativity about Biblical teachings, is rooted in falsehood. And the great majority of that falsehood is perpetuated by the mainstream Christian denominations.

As to this particular supposed inequity, Revelations Chapter 20 describes two separate resurrections: One at the time of the return of Christ--this one Christians only--those who believe in Christ, are baptized, and repent of their sins--to be co-rulers with Jesus in the Millenial Kingdom, and the other one--the so-called Day of Judgment--a thousand years later. In this Day of Judgment resurrection, everybody will be raised up--don't give me any crap about the logistics of that, and everyone will be judged according to their works, presumably giving all those good-hearted pagans a fighting chance at the prize.

And as for Tyrone's little bit of sarcasm about heaven being a place on earth--I thought that was in a New Kids on the Block song, but whatever, heaven i.e. the Kingdom of Heaven--which is the eternal reward promised both Christians and those judged worthy on the Day of Judgment--indeed, WILL BE ON EARTH. See Revelations Chapter 21--where it states that God the Father will dwell on Earth.

[MadScientist]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.
And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.


One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?
Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

[GK]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.
And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.


One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?
Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I have hunch that GK's logic is going to turn madscientist into a believer. will see in the next post.

[MadScientist]

I have hunch that GK's logic is going to turn madscientist into a believer. will see in the next post.
GK has logic? He should try to use it sometime.

[arcilite]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.
And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.


One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?
Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

[MadScientist]

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.
We're even in our opinions of each other.


Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself.
What is undeniably delusional is your ideas of what I think. I can speak for myself just fine.If you just want a discussion between yourself and this straw man that you pretend is me, why bother posting here. (Of course that's the only way you have a chance).

Point of fact, I stopped believing in god when I realized that these ancient gods were created by primitive people to explain things they couldn't understand, or to try to control things that were beyond their ability to control. All evidence I have come across since then simply reaffirms my position. If the evidence had led otherwise, I would have followed it.

You say you believe in the Christian god, but why that one and not Ra, Zues, Vishnu, or that wacky shit the Scientologists believe in. And if you think that Scientology is wacky shit, why is it any wackier than what is in the bible (talking snakes, animal and human sacrifice, Jonah surviving after being swallowed by a giant fish, the holy ghost debauching a virgin babe, etc).


Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag.
Which one (no murder, no adultry, or "6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end." (Exodus 34). Silly Christians, can't even get their commandments straight.

[GK]

I have hunch that GK's logic is going to turn madscientist into a believer. will see in the next post.
GK has logic? He should try to use it sometime.

Ah, I see the "snarky ad hominem attack" approach continues to be the only retort of the atheist. I am not surprised.

As I have said before, there are two ways to approach this:

1) Thoughtful, rational inquiry (see Anthony Flew and C.S. Lewis), or
2) Smart aleck insults

Christians and Christian authors focus on the former - rational inquiry. Atheists, near as I can tell, focus on the latter. This dichotomy does not surprise me, because Christians can make a rational argument for their beliefs, and atheists cannot.

So far on this thread, you have proven my point. You are unable to make a rational defense of your belief (delusion) that there is no God. I am still waiting for you to move beyond smart aleck insults.

So, if the rules are that we exchange smart aleck insults, I am happy to comply. When I discuss philosophical concepts with my Christian colleagues, we general keep it at a very high level. Exchanging insults with atheists is much easier, and less taxing.

So, with that in mind, my response to you is: "MadScientist should try using logic sometime."

[GK]

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.
We're even in our opinions of each other.


Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself.
What is undeniably delusional is your ideas of what I think. I can speak for myself just fine.If you just want a discussion between yourself and this straw man that you pretend is me, why bother posting here. (Of course that's the only way you have a chance).

Point of fact, I stopped believing in god when I realized that these ancient gods were created by primitive people to explain things they couldn't understand, or to try to control things that were beyond their ability to control. All evidence I have come across since then simply reaffirms my position. If the evidence had led otherwise, I would have followed it.

You say you believe in the Christian god, but why that one and not Ra, Zues, Vishnu, or that wacky shit the Scientologists believe in. And if you think that Scientology is wacky shit, why is it any wackier than what is in the bible (talking snakes, animal and human sacrifice, Jonah surviving after being swallowed by a giant fish, the holy ghost debauching a virgin babe, etc).


Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag.
Which one (no murder, no adultry, or "6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end." (Exodus 34). Silly Christians, can't even get their commandments straight.

See my previous post. The ad hominem attacks continue. That is fine. If you would like, I can help you make some arguments against Christianity. Would you like me to do that?

Nah, I'm too tired. If you cannot come up with an argument, I am not going to help you. So I'll just continue in the "insult" mode with you.

You think Ra and Zeus have the same theological underpinnings as Christianity? Are you a moron? Do you even know anything about the beliefs regarding any of them? Obviously you do not, because if you did, you would not have made such a foolish statement.

Your comments about specific aspects of the Bible? Do you know anything about them? Of course you don't, or wouldn't have said something so ignorant.

I'll start with a very simple concept, and hopefully you can follow it. I have a lot of books in my library that refer to "The Emerald Isle" that can be found in the North Atlantic. These books go on about this emerald island that is surrounded by beautiful crystal waters. Now, if I were MadScientist I would throw these books away and laugh at any fool who would try to go to this fantasy place called "Ireland," which is described as an "emerald island" surrounded by "crystal water."

But wait. Uh oh. Do you mean that the writing was metaphorical? Noooooooo! That is not possible. There is no such thing as metaphorical writing. If Fodor's calls Ireland an "Emerald Isle" that means that everything written by Fodor's is false, and anybody who tries to go to Ireland is an idiot.

Sorry, I tried to engage in "non insult" mode. I know that is not what we are doing here. I'll try to stick with insults.

[GK]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.
And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.


One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?
Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

Yes. People who do not believe in God believe in a fantasy.

There is a wonderful fantasy that satisfies every one of man's desires - no rules, no reason to sacrifice, no need to be courageous, and no need to be patient. And most importantly, no judgement. No judgement whatsoever. We are alone, and we are the product of nothing. For the seventy or so years we are here, just live it up as much as you can, and then call it a day.

Now, it doesn't matter that the math doesn't add up (the statistical probability of us being here by chance during the time the universe has been in existence - 14 billion years- is for all practical purposes, zero).

It doesn't matter that such a world cannot defend morality without destroying the whole paradigm.

It doesn't matter that when these ideas have been applied in full force in the real world, the result has been tens of millions of murdered corpses.

It doesn't matter that the man (the secular prophet) who brought forth these ideas, Darwin, did so in the biological Dark Ages.

It doesn't matter that many of the other secular prophets of this new religious movement, like Stanley Miller, have been proven to be frauds.

And it definitely doesn't matter that your average defender of these beliefs is completely incapable of bringing forth an argument in favor of them. The defenders of this belief system rely entirely on insults.

So anyway, yeah, it's a fantasy.

[arcilite]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.
And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.


One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?
Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

Yes. People who do not believe in God believe in a fantasy.

There is a wonderful fantasy that satisfies every one of man's desires - no rules, no reason to sacrifice, no need to be courageous, and no need to be patient. And most importantly, no judgement. No judgement whatsoever. We are alone, and we are the product of nothing. For the seventy or so years we are here, just live it up as much as you can, and then call it a day.

Now, it doesn't matter that the math doesn't add up (the statistical probability of us being here by chance during the time the universe has been in existence - 14 billion years- is for all practical purposes, zero).

It doesn't matter that such a world cannot defend morality without destroying the whole paradigm.

It doesn't matter that when these ideas have been applied in full force in the real world, the result has been tens of millions of murdered corpses.

It doesn't matter that the man (the secular prophet) who brought forth these ideas, Darwin, did so in the biological Dark Ages.

It doesn't matter that many of the other secular prophets of this new religious movement, like Stanley Miller, have been proven to be frauds.

And it definitely doesn't matter that your average defender of these beliefs is completely incapable of bringing forth an argument in favor of them. The defenders of this belief system rely entirely on insults.

So anyway, yeah, it's a fantasy.

So people who believe in God(s)...they don't believe in a fantasy?

You are a confusing fellow.

[MJZiggy]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.
And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.


One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?
Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

Yes. People who do not believe in God believe in a fantasy.

There is a wonderful fantasy that satisfies every one of man's desires - no rules, no reason to sacrifice, no need to be courageous, and no need to be patient. And most importantly, no judgement. No judgement whatsoever. We are alone, and we are the product of nothing. For the seventy or so years we are here, just live it up as much as you can, and then call it a day.

Now, it doesn't matter that the math doesn't add up (the statistical probability of us being here by chance during the time the universe has been in existence - 14 billion years- is for all practical purposes, zero).

It doesn't matter that such a world cannot defend morality without destroying the whole paradigm.

It doesn't matter that when these ideas have been applied in full force in the real world, the result has been tens of millions of murdered corpses.

It doesn't matter that the man (the secular prophet) who brought forth these ideas, Darwin, did so in the biological Dark Ages.

It doesn't matter that many of the other secular prophets of this new religious movement, like Stanley Miller, have been proven to be frauds.

And it definitely doesn't matter that your average defender of these beliefs is completely incapable of bringing forth an argument in favor of them. The defenders of this belief system rely entirely on insults.

So anyway, yeah, it's a fantasy.

Don't discount ethics. There have been studies about ethics in the religious vs. nonreligious. I'm not going to look them up now (because I loaned that book to a friend) but I don't think you'd like what they say.

And you cannot say that only nonreligious people kill one another. More people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason--Catholic vs. Protestant, Christian vs. Muslim, Muslim vs. Jew, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

[HowardRoark]

So people who believe in God(s)...they don't believe in a fantasy?

You are a confusing fellow.

Well, if nothing else, at least you are starting to get the point.

[MadScientist]

See my previous post. The ad hominem attacks continue.
Since you only stop the ad hominem attacks to throw out strawmen, your whines hold no weight.


Your comments about specific aspects of the Bible? Do you know anything about them?
Animal sacrifice was of great importance in the OT, and I rather thought the whole virgin birth/ son of god thing was considered as something other than a metaphor. If this has changed, then you're making progress. I did throw in the talking snakes and Jonah as window dressing, but there are no shortage in blind faith believers who take it as 'gospel truth'.


I have a lot of books in my library that refer to "The Emerald Isle" that can be found in the North Atlantic.
You treat the existence of Ireland as proof of the existence of leprechauns.

[MadScientist]

Christians and Christian authors focus on the former - rational inquiry. Atheists, near as I can tell, focus on the latter. This dichotomy does not surprise me, because Christians can make a rational argument for their beliefs, and atheists cannot.
Let's see, you started in on this thread that with a line of reasoning because Christianity thrives where people are desperate, that makes it real. When pointed out that this makes no sense, you call me and others delusional and living in a fantasy. (Real high level there).

My position is simply this, there is no evidence for the existence of a god, much less the existence of the Christian god, therefore there is no reason to believe in such a god.

Let's see your evidence.

[MadScientist]

Now, it doesn't matter that the math doesn't add up (the statistical probability of us being here by chance during the time the universe has been in existence - 14 billion years- is for all practical purposes, zero).
You should know that this is the probability of a human genome popping out of random slime in 14 billion years. Since it totally discards the effects of evolution, that argument is meaningless.