Does the federal gov't bail out GM?

[digitaldean]

Reports are coming out that GM has only enough cash till the end of the year at best (some are saying 3 to 4 weeks).

Does the gov't bail out GM or let them sink? If some of those estimates are close to correct, something would have to be done before Obama is sworn in.

AIG, FannieMae and FreddieMac, GM....where the hell does it end???

We run the risk of hyperinflation if this keeps up.

Thoughts???

[MJZiggy]

I voted they do it, but I sure don't like it.

[mraynrand]

Businesses fail all the time. The bailout is intended to placate the unions who seek to maintain their absurdly lucrative contracts and obligations. GM is a bloated pension and healthcare firm that can't possibly survive as currently structured. A 'bailout' would waste our monies and prolong the agony.

[Jimx29]

It worked, albeit not long term, for Mopar :?

[HowardRoark]

Businesses fail all the time. The bailout is intended to placate the unions who seek to maintain their absurdly lucrative contracts and obligations. GM is a bloated pension and healthcare firm that can't possibly survive as currently structured. A 'bailout' would waste our monies and prolong the agony.

I agree. The pensions will be one more thing that will be thrown on the heap of things the Federal Government (i.e. our kids….and that fact is really starting to piss me off) will be on the hook for. The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation will implode with these auto companies going under.

[swede]

Glenn Beck absolutely ranted for three hours when they bailed out BearStearns and I thought he was overreacting. He was actually rather prescient. Starting with Bear-Stearns the gummint has been on a bailout roll: smart industries would be wise to overextend and then get in line for free money before it all runs out.

I want a do-over on the 700 billion bailout. It would have been better to give the money to the idiots with bad loans than to let the criminals in the credit industry sit on the money.

And don't get me started on AIG--another 350,000 outing for the execs at a posh resort!

Greedy criminals on one side, irresponsible consumers on the other, and the most incompetent elected officials on the planet throwing monkey wrenches into the machine. Happy holidays!

[Kiwon]

Glenn Beck absolutely ranted for three hours when they bailed out BearStearns and I thought he was overreacting. He was actually rather prescient. Starting with Bear-Stearns the gummint has been on a bailout roll: smart industries would be wise to overextend and then get in line for free money before it all runs out.

I want a do-over on the 700 billion bailout. It would have been better to give the money to the idiots with bad loans than to let the criminals in the credit industry sit on the money.

And don't get me started on AIG--another 350,000 outing for the execs at a posh resort!

Greedy criminals on one side, irresponsible consumers on the other, and the most incompetent elected officials on the planet throwing monkey wrenches into the machine. Happy holidays!

:bclap: 100% agree.

[Harlan Huckleby]

these issues are so far beyond me.

the bailouts seem bad to me mainly because I fear they will prove insufficient. Just throwing good money after bad.

But what the hell do I know? Its all too complicated and depressing and overwhelming. The notion of GM going under is terrifying.

[mraynrand]

The notion of GM going under is terrifying.

It is bad for workers who planned their retirements based on impossible deals worked out by unions. But even if GM goes under, the workers won't disappear and the plants won't go away, much of the infrastructure would still be there. Businesses fail - it's a startling thing, but huge businesses have failed in the U.S in the past. You never know - the car company rising from the ashes of GM might be far better suited to compete in this century.

[Freak Out]

We should be spending this money on infrastructure for the future that will benefit all Americans instead of piling money on these fools. Roads, rail , power, broadband, schools...the list is long. GM should have been smartening up instead of building SUVs for the last 20 years. They fucking deserve to fail. The only way they get money is if we get something in return. Like a nice electric train or something. Why are we buying German light rail instead of American. Oh ya....they have an incentive to do it. Most of these bailouts were another fleece job on Americans that really wont benefit any of us in the long run.

[MJZiggy]

We should be spending this money on infrastructure for the future that will benefit all Americans instead of piling money on these fools. Roads, rail , power, broadband, schools...the list is long. GM should have been smartening up instead of building SUVs for the last 20 years. They fucking deserve to fail. The only way they get money is if we get something in return. Like a nice electric train or something. Why are we buying German light rail instead of American. Oh ya....they have an incentive to do it. Most of these bailouts were another fleece job on Americans that really wont benefit any of us in the long run.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :cry:

[HowardRoark]

And don't get me started on AIG--another 350,000 outing for the execs at a posh resort!

On this subject, I think a little misinformation is out there. These so called “executives” really were/are insurance salesmen/people. You know, the people with VP of something or another on their business card. It is very normal in this business to have incentive trips for the very top tier of people who sell product. From what I understand, these were independent agents. If all the agents out there decide to stop selling AIG products (which is already happening because of the situation), you might as well forget about ever getting that money back from AIG.

As bad as it sounds in quick sound bites on the news, Congress shouldn’t be micro-managing these companies. I do agree that the true executives should not be getting these trips.

[SkinBasket]

Businesses fail all the time. The bailout is intended to placate the unions who seek to maintain their absurdly lucrative contracts and obligations. GM is a bloated pension and healthcare firm that can't possibly survive as currently structured. A 'bailout' would waste our monies and prolong the agony.

Word up. And Ford wants 30 billion to go straight from our pockets to the union pension fund. That is fucked up. The auto unions need to perish. Allowing the host to die may be the only way.

[sheepshead]

If they throw out the unions. Reevaluate every retired employee for need. Rewrite the health life and disability benefits for all retirees. Then and only then, give them tax breaks.

[LL2]

If they throw out the unions. Reevaluate every retired employee for need. Rewrite the health life and disability benefits for all retirees. Then and only then, give them tax breaks.

I agree! Union people are a lot like people on welfare. They feel they are entitled to a raise every year, free healthcare, etc.

I do think they should bail out the big three. If they can bail out all the corrupt bankers on wall street, why not bail out Detroit. If they do not the Big 3 will be the Big 0.

[SkinBasket]

If they do not the Big 3 will be the Big 0.

They already are the Big 0. Paying a company to make a car that I'll then have to buy doesn't make much sense to me.

[Freak Out]

Considering 1 in 10 jobs is tied to the US auto industry we need to do something.....is it just giving them cash to operate like they want..? Hell no. But there are ways we can help where everyone should benefit in some way.

[SkinBasket]

1 in 10 jobs or 1 in 10 pensions?

[Freak Out]

1 in 10 jobs or 1 in 10 pensions?

I thought that all/most of the pension costs and health care costs had been rolled over to Union responsibility during the last negotiations with the UAW? So you believe giving any assistance at all the the US auto industry is just throwing $$$ at the UAW?

[Harlan Huckleby]

We should be spending this money on infrastructure for the future that will benefit all Americans instead of piling money on these fools. Roads, rail , power, broadband, schools...the list is long. GM should have been smartening up instead of building SUVs for the last 20 years. They fucking deserve to fail. The only way they get money is if we get something in return. Like a nice electric train or something. Why are we buying German light rail instead of American. Oh ya....they have an incentive to do it. Most of these bailouts were another fleece job on Americans that really wont benefit any of us in the long run.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :cry:

Freak Out's argument sounds good. But there is such a huge ripple effect of the auto industry, a huge chunk of the economy is related to the automobile beyond GM & Ford.

The Chinese don't let major industries go under during non-competitive periods, they protect and nurture them.

I don't know who's smarter, Freak Out or the Chinese.

I don't trust anybody's opinion on this issue, it's too difficult to predict the consequences of any action, or the consequences of doing nothing. I just close my eyes and hope Barry chooses the right course.

[bobblehead]

The notion of GM going under is terrifying.

It is bad for workers who planned their retirements based on impossible deals worked out by unions. But even if GM goes under, the workers won't disappear and the plants won't go away, much of the infrastructure would still be there. Businesses fail - it's a startling thing, but huge businesses have failed in the U.S in the past. You never know - the car company rising from the ashes of GM might be far better suited to compete in this century.

stop with that logic thing and advocating capitalism. We live in a society of nonfailure and bailouts. competition is ugly and it causes great pain to the inefficient and weak.

[Freak Out]

We should be spending this money on infrastructure for the future that will benefit all Americans instead of piling money on these fools. Roads, rail , power, broadband, schools...the list is long. GM should have been smartening up instead of building SUVs for the last 20 years. They fucking deserve to fail. The only way they get money is if we get something in return. Like a nice electric train or something. Why are we buying German light rail instead of American. Oh ya....they have an incentive to do it. Most of these bailouts were another fleece job on Americans that really wont benefit any of us in the long run.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :cry:

Freak Out's argument sounds good. But there is such a huge ripple effect of the auto industry, a huge chunk of the economy is related to the automobile beyond GM & Ford.

The Chinese don't let major industries go under during non-competitive periods, they protect and nurture them.

I don't know who's smarter, Freak Out or the Chinese.

I don't trust anybody's opinion on this issue, it's too difficult to predict the consequences of any action, or the consequences of doing nothing. I just close my eyes and hope Barry chooses the right course.

The Chinese have me beat hands down. I'm not for letting them fail.....but we need to have a much smarter option then just giving them cash to run like they always have.

[bobblehead]

1 in 10 jobs or 1 in 10 pensions?

I thought that all/most of the pension costs and health care costs had been rolled over to Union responsibility during the last negotiations with the UAW? So you believe giving any assistance at all the the US auto industry is just throwing $$$ at the UAW?

Doesn't matter which...they are both inefficient and got themselves into this mess. There was a very real and pressing reason to loosen up the credit markets (although people have stopped borrowing so it was somewhat pointless...yes read that as I was wrong.)

Markets have a way of weeding out the morons....we need to let them work. I overestimated our ability to avoid paying the piper by bailing out the credit markets...we are suffering the damage anyway. We might as well have saved the 700 billion. If we let this model fail a more efficient better model will be developed. Its the natural selection of economics. We know how you liberals love natural selection. (ok me too)

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty like AMEX is counting on the Feds declaring me a bank...then i'll scoop up some of that bailout money.

[SkinBasket]

1 in 10 jobs or 1 in 10 pensions?

I thought that all/most of the pension costs and health care costs had been rolled over to Union responsibility during the last negotiations with the UAW? So you believe giving any assistance at all the the US auto industry is just throwing $$$ at the UAW?

I don't know about GM, but Ford owes $20 or $30 billion payment to the UAW as as part of that transferal of pension responsibility. Of course they don't have it, and it's what they need the government money for, to essentially pass along to the pension fund.

[Jimx29]

What about those who have a 'pro hole" agenda?

Should The Government Stop Dumping Money Into A Giant Hole? (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/in_the_know_should_the_government)

[HowardRoark]

So, I was talking to a guy I know today, a retired professor from Harvard no less, about the economy. He was all a twitter because the new leadership coming in was going to do “big things.” He thought it would be a great idea if the government would bail out GM and then force them to build all kinds of alternative fuel vehicles. I asked a very simple, polite question that left him speechless and dumfounded.

“What if nobody buys these cars?”

[Freak Out]

So, I was talking to a guy I know today, a retired professor from Harvard no less, about the economy. He was all a twitter because the new leadership coming in was going to do “big things.” He thought it would be a great idea if the government would bail out GM and then force them to build all kinds of alternative fuel vehicles. I asked a very simple, polite question that left him speechless and dumfounded.

“What if nobody buys these cars?”

I'm not sure what cars sales are at right now but I know it's down. Very few large "private" vehicles are moving off the lot but smaller cars are moving.....which is a reversal of trends in AK. Commercial vehicles sales are gloomy to say the least. If nobody has money to buy food they sure as hell are not going to buy a new car..even if it is green. Unless you are living big on government handouts and can afford to buy a Cadillac like the brothers can.

[bobblehead]

So, I was talking to a guy I know today, a retired professor from Harvard no less, about the economy. He was all a twitter because the new leadership coming in was going to do “big things.” He thought it would be a great idea if the government would bail out GM and then force them to build all kinds of alternative fuel vehicles. I asked a very simple, polite question that left him speechless and dumfounded.

“What if nobody buys these cars?”

You mean he didn't say that barry would mandate that those would be the only cars for sale?? surprising.

Bottom line is that we need to let the failures fail and someone else will begin making cars we want to buy....and doing it better.

[Bossman641]

So, I was talking to a guy I know today, a retired professor from Harvard no less, about the economy. He was all a twitter because the new leadership coming in was going to do “big things.” He thought it would be a great idea if the government would bail out GM and then force them to build all kinds of alternative fuel vehicles. I asked a very simple, polite question that left him speechless and dumfounded.

“What if nobody buys these cars?”

You mean he didn't say that barry would mandate that those would be the only cars for sale?? surprising.

Bottom line is that we need to let the failures fail and someone else will begin making cars we want to buy....and doing it better.

I agree. At some point you have to let the businesses who have made bad deals or bad decisions fail. It's how the market is meant to work. Sure, it will be much worse off in the short run, but unless there are going to be SERIOUS changes all this is is throwing money at a problem that would just arise again further down the road.

[Fosco33]

A small news item - but shows what's to come.

AmEx recently got in line for the gov't handout - altering themselves to be a bank... sure they have a tiny bank operation but give me a f-ing break.

[bobblehead]

I agree. At some point you have to let the businesses who have made bad deals or bad decisions fail. It's how the market is meant to work. Sure, it will be much worse off in the short run, but unless there are going to be SERIOUS changes all this is is throwing money at a problem that would just arise again further down the road.

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

patient: "Doctor, there is a bullet in me, take it out."

doctor pulls out scalpal. patient: "What are you going to do with that"

Doc: "cut through some tissue to get the bullet out"

Patient: "oh, well if you have to cut through some tissue and cause pain nevermind, leave it there"

[Harlan Huckleby]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

[SkinBasket]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

We don't have an auto industry. We have a union welfare industry that makes cars on the side.

[Freak Out]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

We don't have an auto industry. We have a union welfare industry that makes cars on the side.

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

[SkinBasket]

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

The auto industry will never recover until they're rid of the parasitic union. I have a couple of family members living off UAW union pensions. Ridiculous pensions.

I don't feel I'm exaggerating at all when I say it's a welfare industry that happens to make cars when they can. It simply is not a maintainable business model and we've been paying higher prices on lower quality US autos as a result. So yes, I'm against funding the UAW pension program with taxpayer dollars.

You can say what you will about how slow the automakers have been to respond to demand for hybrids and the like, but don't forget it was the same fickle customer base that was thundering for more tank-like SUVs less than a decade ago, so of course they focused on those models - to make money. It takes some time to R&D, develop, re-gear plants, and deploy entirely new models. Especially when swinging from an SUV to a light car/hybrid/alt fuel market. And instead of being flexible, the unions fight those changes every step of the way, because it means cutting obsolete jobs, job reassignments, plants closed, etc, etc.

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

[Freak Out]

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

The auto industry will never recover until they're rid of the parasitic union. I have a couple of family members living off UAW union pensions. Ridiculous pensions.

I don't feel I'm exaggerating at all when I say it's a welfare industry that happens to make cars when they can. It simply is not a maintainable business model and we've been paying higher prices on lower quality US autos as a result. So yes, I'm against funding the UAW pension program with taxpayer dollars.

You can say what you will about how slow the automakers have been to respond to demand for hybrids and the like, but don't forget it was the same fickle customer base that was thundering for more tank-like SUVs less than a decade ago, so of course they focused on those models - to make money. It takes some time to R&D, develop, re-gear plants, and deploy entirely new models. Especially when swinging from an SUV to a light car/hybrid/alt fuel market. And instead of being flexible, the unions fight those changes every step of the way, because it means cutting obsolete jobs, job reassignments, plants closed, etc, etc.

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

As I stated in another thread I hate having to pay for someones pension (especially a totally unrealistic one) when they have no obligation to do the same for me. That goes for State, Fed, Local, or private employees...AK has a huge issue right now with the unfunded State Employees pension fund...it's something like 30 billion in the hole.
The Auto makers and the UAW should have worked out a solution years ago but greed won out like it does in many labor situations and now the it's all coming back to bite them in the ass. Huge concessions have to be made by both sides if our auto industry is going to survive. The thought of these companies failing now scares me.
I would start calling or emailing your Congressional delegation now because it looks like they might start working on a bailout plan soon and we do not need the solution to be just throwing money at these clowns. What's the guys name who ran Home Depot..retired with 200 million in severance deals and is now running Chrysler I think? This guy wants our money? Enough is enough.

[bobblehead]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

Do you know the consequences of taking that bullet out?? Blood flowing free, tissue being ravaged...serious trama....best to leave it in, festering until it kills the entire organism. heh, did I just describe the UAW??

[MJZiggy]

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

The auto industry will never recover until they're rid of the parasitic union. I have a couple of family members living off UAW union pensions. Ridiculous pensions.

I don't feel I'm exaggerating at all when I say it's a welfare industry that happens to make cars when they can. It simply is not a maintainable business model and we've been paying higher prices on lower quality US autos as a result. So yes, I'm against funding the UAW pension program with taxpayer dollars.

You can say what you will about how slow the automakers have been to respond to demand for hybrids and the like, but don't forget it was the same fickle customer base that was thundering for more tank-like SUVs less than a decade ago, so of course they focused on those models - to make money. It takes some time to R&D, develop, re-gear plants, and deploy entirely new models. Especially when swinging from an SUV to a light car/hybrid/alt fuel market. And instead of being flexible, the unions fight those changes every step of the way, because it means cutting obsolete jobs, job reassignments, plants closed, etc, etc.

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

As I stated in another thread I hate having to pay for someones pension (especially a totally unrealistic one) when they have no obligation to do the same for me. That goes for State, Fed, Local, or private employees...AK has a huge issue right now with the unfunded State Employees pension fund...it's something like 30 billion in the hole.
The Auto makers and the UAW should have worked out a solution years ago but greed won out like it does in many labor situations and now the it's all coming back to bite them in the ass. Huge concessions have to be made by both sides if our auto industry is going to survive. The thought of these companies failing now scares me.
I would start calling or emailing your Congressional delegation now because it looks like they might start working on a bailout plan soon and we do not need the solution to be just throwing money at these clowns. What's the guys name who ran Home Depot..retired with 200 million in severance deals and is now running Chrysler I think? This guy wants our money? Enough is enough.

I thought someone yesterday proposed taking some of the 700 billion we've already set aside to give GM a bandaid?

[wist43]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

[MJZiggy]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

[digitaldean]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

Heard this today when he was talking about the budget issues in Milw. County....

It's spot on. GM tried to pare down some legacy costs in the last contract in 2007, but it is too little too late.

The American taxpayer can't keep bailing out EVERY firm. There will be many inside and outside the auto industry who would be hurt if GM failed. But GM could reorganize under bankruptcy protection laws.

I said it before, but we do run the risk of hyperinflation if we don't stop bailing out every financial institution, major corporation, etc.

[SkinBasket]

Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

Yeah. That never really happened. Now we're all paying the price. Unfortunately, the price may be higher if this isn't resolved before your man takes office.

[bobblehead]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

You voted obama right?? What are the odds his administration gives the old FU to the union? I see a BIG bailout benefitting said union in our future.

[packinpatland]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

[SkinBasket]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

[packinpatland]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

First things first.............I was never a 'soccer mom'.
I'm not so sure those little American-made Euro cars wouldn't pass the American crash test, I'll have to look into that. I do know they don't drive as fast over there, I'm only speaking of the UK.
I've been married 34 years. We've had 3 cars. Our first was an AMC Gremlin. We made it last 16 years. It was our 2nd vehicle for 12. The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.
But getting back to your statement about soccer moms seeing Al Gore's movie and trading in their SUVs.............you telling me they were the only ones driving those whopping huge cars?

[packinpatland]

As to the 'bail out' of GM...........could we talk Jack Welch out of retirement?

[MJZiggy]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

Smartcars are showing up here and getting more and more popular. Too bad they're not American.

[packinpatland]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

Smartcars are showing up here and getting more and more popular. Too bad they're not American.

Aren't they made by Mercedes?

[MJZiggy]

Yes.

[bobblehead]

ford made a car that gets 60 MPG (diesal). They did some market research and realized it wouldn't be profitable to try and sell it in america...it is debuting overseas soon.

[wist43]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

MJ, while I appreciate that you agree with me on this particular unConstitutional expenditure of funds - it illustrates my overriding point of principle.

I would argue that you do, in fact, support the bailout b/c you support the underlying premise that allows the bailout - that is to say, you support democracy, you support unlimited government.

Everybody's money is up for grabs, everybody's property is up for grabs, and ultimately everybody's rights are up for grabs. There's simply no stopping it b/c there is no Constitutional limitation - clever misinterpretations of the Constitution have removed any barriers to unlimited government.

You want your pet programs funded, Harlan wants his pet programs funded, the auto workers want their pet programs funded, the elderly want their pet programs funded... and, ultimately, everybody with their hand out will get what they want.

Of course all of this is unsustainable in the long run... the long run may not come for another 10 years, or if I'm lucky, another 40 years - I don't see how I deserve to suffer thru the inevitable collapse, I've understood the folly for many years, and have been trying to sound the alarm :)

That's the ugliness of the mob, the ugliness of democracy. "As long as I get mine..." mentality, and there's no stopping it now. Just as in all other historical democracies, people will simply vote themselves the wealth, means, and property of the productive and yet to be born generations.

Since the "Rule of Law" has been abandoned - and you agree with this, whether you realize it or not - there is no law to stop any of it. There is only the arguement.

And in case you haven't noticed, Washington is hemoraging money - but who cares, we can just print more, right??? And since your grand children, and great grand children can't vote to defend themselves, we can just go right on stealing their future, right???

So few people understand the principles of limited government laid out in the Constitution. Nothing standing in the way of the mob now. What's the national debt now??? About 10 trillion, and climbing???

Wait till the baby boomers retire enmasse, and more people are taking out of the system than putting in... that'll be a hootin' good time :)

Social Security, Medicare, bailouts, unfunded mandates... the math alone should make people logically move to rein in the FedGov - never minding the unConsitutionality arguement. Simply from a standpoint of math.

It's all unbelievable to me.

[SkinBasket]

But getting back to your statement about soccer moms seeing Al Gore's movie and trading in their SUVs.............you telling me they were the only ones driving those whopping huge cars?

I think they constituted the largest segment of customers who were driving SUVs because they were fashionable, not because they needed the HP or space.

That's probably an over generalization, I know, but I still have nightmares about constantly swerving out of the way of those broads on their cell phones with their designer sunglasses driving those mini-bus Excursions around while doing their hair.

[HowardRoark]

The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.
:D

[packinpatland]

The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.
:D

What you smiling at Howard? :lol:
My next car will be probably be a Volvo too............and now that it's owned by Ford, that shouldn't bother anyone, right?

[LL2]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

Heard this today when he was talking about the budget issues in Milw. County....

It's spot on. GM tried to pare down some legacy costs in the last contract in 2007, but it is too little too late.

The American taxpayer can't keep bailing out EVERY firm. There will be many inside and outside the auto industry who would be hurt if GM failed. But GM could reorganize under bankruptcy protection laws.

I said it before, but we do run the risk of hyperinflation if we don't stop bailing out every financial institution, major corporation, etc.

You make some interesting points. There are some key factors the employees and retirees, unions, and the hyperinflation risk.

The first one is the HUGE domino affect the would result if 1 or 2 of the Big 3 go under.

"GM and Chrysler, through a network of 10,000 dealers, have combined U.S. sales of between $110 billion and $130 billion, a figure that approaches 1% of the U.S. gross domestic product. They employ an estimated 145,000 people in the United States at more than 110 assembly, stamping and parts plants. An additional 600,000 retirees depend on the two carmakers for health care and pensions."

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/general-motors-and-chrysler-on-the-brink.aspx

The above stat doesn't refer the the more than 2,100 business that are suppliers to the Big 3, so the above figures could be double if you add them in and many of them would go under if GM or Chrysler go under.

We could see unemployment hit 10% in this country if these dominoes fall, because all those lost jobs will hurt every store, coffee shop, etc.

The second part is that unions are a HUGE part of the problem.

"Should U.S. taxpayers really be providing billions of dollars to bailout companies (GM (GM), Ford (F) and Chrysler) that compensate their workers 52.5% more than the market (assuming Toyota wages and benefits are market), 54% more than management and professional workers, 132% more than the average manufacturing wage, and 157% more than the average compensation of all American workers?"

http://seekingalpha.com/article/105061-should-we-really-bail-out-the-big-three-automakers-with-73-20-per-hour-labor

How is it that Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai are building cars successfully in THIS country and do not need a handout? The Big 3 have failed to adapt and deal with the unions. In my neck of the woods Caterpillar has a huge plant that employs thousands. I recall reading an article how CAT has over the years stonewalled the union and basically made them powerless. CAT is still a profitable company even though their market share has gone down (I know a handful of people tha work for CAT).

The third thing is hyperinflation. The government diluting the economy with tons of worthless paper to save wall street and the auto industry COULD work or it could sink our economy even further down a never ending spiral.

I just hope the government makes the right decision, because they are playing poker right now.

[HowardRoark]

The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.
:D

What you smiling at Howard? :lol:
My next car will be probably be a Volvo too............and now that it's owned by Ford, that shouldn't bother anyone, right?

It doesn't bother me at all. I own two Toyotas, that's not what makes me smile. It's the Volvos, right out of the Catechism :)

[MJZiggy]

I thought I read the other day that they were planning on taking this bailout money out of the money already allocated to the banking industry. Anyone know if that's true?

They are saying that they will buy an interest in the company and that the American people will be "owners." If I am an owner, I think I will call for an immediate restructuring of the company, its policies and payscales. If they balk, the question becomes "do you want a pay cut or unemployment? I also get the feeling that this is not the first time a union has driven a company out of business...

[Sammy4Pack]

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

Not true. Don't make a blanket statement about union position.

Several years back, when facing hard times in our industry, (not UAW, but a very large Union) the union asked for a vote from members. The vote was whether to put off a 3% raise for 6 (or maybe more months) to refrain from lay offs, or cutting positions entirely. The Union members voted to refrain from taking their raises to keep others employed. One month later come to find out, even in tough times, the top heavy management went ahead and took their 6% raise. What a kick in the ass. My buddy was management, heard it from him directly. He was embarrassed.

[MJZiggy]

I think these people should take one look at Detroit and STFU.

http://wtop.com/?nid=116&sid=1517838

Boost the economy by increasing food stamps? Idiotic. Have they thought of working to generate jobs instead? Maybe they should sell bonds like they used to do? People are looking for stable investments for goodness sakes...

[SkinBasket]

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

Not true. Don't make a blanket statement about union position.

Several years back, when facing hard times in our industry, (not UAW, but a very large Union) the union asked for a vote from members. The vote was whether to put off a 3% raise for 6 (or maybe more months) to refrain from lay offs, or cutting positions entirely. The Union members voted to refrain from taking their raises to keep others employed. One month later come to find out, even in tough times, the top heavy management went ahead and took their 6% raise. What a kick in the ass. My buddy was management, heard it from him directly. He was embarrassed.

Why should he be embarrassed? He's not part of your union. I guess that's usually another union position: thinking they're entitled to everything their union has negotiated plus everything anyone outside the union gets as well.

[bobblehead]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

MJ, while I appreciate that you agree with me on this particular unConstitutional expenditure of funds - it illustrates my overriding point of principle.

I would argue that you do, in fact, support the bailout b/c you support the underlying premise that allows the bailout - that is to say, you support democracy, you support unlimited government.

Everybody's money is up for grabs, everybody's property is up for grabs, and ultimately everybody's rights are up for grabs. There's simply no stopping it b/c there is no Constitutional limitation - clever misinterpretations of the Constitution have removed any barriers to unlimited government.

You want your pet programs funded, Harlan wants his pet programs funded, the auto workers want their pet programs funded, the elderly want their pet programs funded... and, ultimately, everybody with their hand out will get what they want.

Of course all of this is unsustainable in the long run... the long run may not come for another 10 years, or if I'm lucky, another 40 years - I don't see how I deserve to suffer thru the inevitable collapse, I've understood the folly for many years, and have been trying to sound the alarm :)

That's the ugliness of the mob, the ugliness of democracy. "As long as I get mine..." mentality, and there's no stopping it now. Just as in all other historical democracies, people will simply vote themselves the wealth, means, and property of the productive and yet to be born generations.

Since the "Rule of Law" has been abandoned - and you agree with this, whether you realize it or not - there is no law to stop any of it. There is only the arguement.

And in case you haven't noticed, Washington is hemoraging money - but who cares, we can just print more, right??? And since your grand children, and great grand children can't vote to defend themselves, we can just go right on stealing their future, right???

So few people understand the principles of limited government laid out in the Constitution. Nothing standing in the way of the mob now. What's the national debt now??? About 10 trillion, and climbing???

Wait till the baby boomers retire enmasse, and more people are taking out of the system than putting in... that'll be a hootin' good time :)

Social Security, Medicare, bailouts, unfunded mandates... the math alone should make people logically move to rein in the FedGov - never minding the unConsitutionality arguement. Simply from a standpoint of math.

It's all unbelievable to me.

Wist, if you ever hit vegas PM me...we'll have a drink to the demise. I have tried to raise the spectre of the 59 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities our federal gov't has promised but people just don't want to hear it...they want national healthcare.

[bobblehead]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

Heard this today when he was talking about the budget issues in Milw. County....

It's spot on. GM tried to pare down some legacy costs in the last contract in 2007, but it is too little too late.

The American taxpayer can't keep bailing out EVERY firm. There will be many inside and outside the auto industry who would be hurt if GM failed. But GM could reorganize under bankruptcy protection laws.

I said it before, but we do run the risk of hyperinflation if we don't stop bailing out every financial institution, major corporation, etc.

You make some interesting points. There are some key factors the employees and retirees, unions, and the hyperinflation risk.

The first one is the HUGE domino affect the would result if 1 or 2 of the Big 3 go under.

"GM and Chrysler, through a network of 10,000 dealers, have combined U.S. sales of between $110 billion and $130 billion, a figure that approaches 1% of the U.S. gross domestic product. They employ an estimated 145,000 people in the United States at more than 110 assembly, stamping and parts plants. An additional 600,000 retirees depend on the two carmakers for health care and pensions."

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/general-motors-and-chrysler-on-the-brink.aspx

The above stat doesn't refer the the more than 2,100 business that are suppliers to the Big 3, so the above figures could be double if you add them in and many of them would go under if GM or Chrysler go under.

We could see unemployment hit 10% in this country if these dominoes fall, because all those lost jobs will hurt every store, coffee shop, etc.

The second part is that unions are a HUGE part of the problem.

"Should U.S. taxpayers really be providing billions of dollars to bailout companies (GM (GM), Ford (F) and Chrysler) that compensate their workers 52.5% more than the market (assuming Toyota wages and benefits are market), 54% more than management and professional workers, 132% more than the average manufacturing wage, and 157% more than the average compensation of all American workers?"

http://seekingalpha.com/article/105061-should-we-really-bail-out-the-big-three-automakers-with-73-20-per-hour-labor

How is it that Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai are building cars successfully in THIS country and do not need a handout? The Big 3 have failed to adapt and deal with the unions. In my neck of the woods Caterpillar has a huge plant that employs thousands. I recall reading an article how CAT has over the years stonewalled the union and basically made them powerless. CAT is still a profitable company even though their market share has gone down (I know a handful of people tha work for CAT).

The third thing is hyperinflation. The government diluting the economy with tons of worthless paper to save wall street and the auto industry COULD work or it could sink our economy even further down a never ending spiral.

I just hope the government makes the right decision, because they are playing poker right now.

Again, my answer is this. Best to leave the bullet in to fester and infect until it destroys the entire organism.

No one said it is supposed to tickle when a corp/industry goes bankrupt though their own innefficiencies, but maybe our auto industry needs new blood, new managers, new union contracts who can get it right instead of big bailouts to cover their lack of ability.

What is good for this immediate second might not be what is best 5 years from now...but hey, fuck the kids, they can pay for our bailouts.

[packinpatland]

The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.
:D

What you smiling at Howard? :lol:
My next car will be probably be a Volvo too............and now that it's owned by Ford, that shouldn't bother anyone, right?

It doesn't bother me at all. I own two Toyotas, that's not what makes me smile. It's the Volvos, right out of the Catechism :)

Hmmmm.............the nuns never mentioned them :wink:

[wist43]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

MJ, while I appreciate that you agree with me on this particular unConstitutional expenditure of funds - it illustrates my overriding point of principle.

I would argue that you do, in fact, support the bailout b/c you support the underlying premise that allows the bailout - that is to say, you support democracy, you support unlimited government.

Everybody's money is up for grabs, everybody's property is up for grabs, and ultimately everybody's rights are up for grabs. There's simply no stopping it b/c there is no Constitutional limitation - clever misinterpretations of the Constitution have removed any barriers to unlimited government.

You want your pet programs funded, Harlan wants his pet programs funded, the auto workers want their pet programs funded, the elderly want their pet programs funded... and, ultimately, everybody with their hand out will get what they want.

Of course all of this is unsustainable in the long run... the long run may not come for another 10 years, or if I'm lucky, another 40 years - I don't see how I deserve to suffer thru the inevitable collapse, I've understood the folly for many years, and have been trying to sound the alarm :)

That's the ugliness of the mob, the ugliness of democracy. "As long as I get mine..." mentality, and there's no stopping it now. Just as in all other historical democracies, people will simply vote themselves the wealth, means, and property of the productive and yet to be born generations.

Since the "Rule of Law" has been abandoned - and you agree with this, whether you realize it or not - there is no law to stop any of it. There is only the arguement.

And in case you haven't noticed, Washington is hemoraging money - but who cares, we can just print more, right??? And since your grand children, and great grand children can't vote to defend themselves, we can just go right on stealing their future, right???

So few people understand the principles of limited government laid out in the Constitution. Nothing standing in the way of the mob now. What's the national debt now??? About 10 trillion, and climbing???

Wait till the baby boomers retire enmasse, and more people are taking out of the system than putting in... that'll be a hootin' good time :)

Social Security, Medicare, bailouts, unfunded mandates... the math alone should make people logically move to rein in the FedGov - never minding the unConsitutionality arguement. Simply from a standpoint of math.

It's all unbelievable to me.

Wist, if you ever hit vegas PM me...we'll have a drink to the demise. I have tried to raise the spectre of the 59 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities our federal gov't has promised but people just don't want to hear it...they want national healthcare.

Will do :D

You're right... no one wants to do the math, they're too busy debating how to rearrange the deck chairs.

[MJZiggy]

If you've ever tripped over a deck chair, you'll understand why it's important to arrange them properly... :mrgreen:

[wist43]

If you've ever tripped over a deck chair, you'll understand why it's important to arrange them properly... :mrgreen:

My plan is to trip over the deck chair, and launch myself high into the air... flinging myself far enough away from the sinking ship so as not to get sucked into the undertow :D

[MJZiggy]

Moving to Istanbul are you?

[Sammy4Pack]

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

Not true. Don't make a blanket statement about union position.

Several years back, when facing hard times in our industry, (not UAW, but a very large Union) the union asked for a vote from members. The vote was whether to put off a 3% raise for 6 (or maybe more months) to refrain from lay offs, or cutting positions entirely. The Union members voted to refrain from taking their raises to keep others employed. One month later come to find out, even in tough times, the top heavy management went ahead and took their 6% raise. What a kick in the ass. My buddy was management, heard it from him directly. He was embarrassed.

Why should he be embarrassed? He's not part of your union. I guess that's usually another union position: thinking they're entitled to everything their union has negotiated plus everything anyone outside the union gets as well.

Are you 6 yrs old, or did you daddy tell you to write that?

Did I mention anything about Union members feeling entitled to everything anyone outside the union gets? dumbass.

He was embarrassed because top heavy management did NOTHING to help out the situation, and took their fat ass 6%, while Union employees attempted to save jobs and took nothing.

So you see, the union position has NOT always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors.

[SkinBasket]

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

Not true. Don't make a blanket statement about union position.

Several years back, when facing hard times in our industry, (not UAW, but a very large Union) the union asked for a vote from members. The vote was whether to put off a 3% raise for 6 (or maybe more months) to refrain from lay offs, or cutting positions entirely. The Union members voted to refrain from taking their raises to keep others employed. One month later come to find out, even in tough times, the top heavy management went ahead and took their 6% raise. What a kick in the ass. My buddy was management, heard it from him directly. He was embarrassed.

Why should he be embarrassed? He's not part of your union. I guess that's usually another union position: thinking they're entitled to everything their union has negotiated plus everything anyone outside the union gets as well.

Are you 6 yrs old, or did you daddy tell you to write that?

Did I mention anything about Union members feeling entitled to everything anyone outside the union gets? dumbass.

He was embarrassed because top heavy management did NOTHING to help out the situation, and took their fat ass 6%, while Union employees attempted to save jobs and took nothing.

So you see, the union position has NOT always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors.

So you expected non-union employees to take a pay hit to protect union jobs?

BTW, when I originally referred to "the union" in my post you quoted, I was referring to the UAW, though I would feel comfortable extending that to most unions, your wonderful example of one vote for one union aside.

Also, in my analogy, the ship is the business or industry, not the union.

[Freak Out]

Enough said.

http://www.cerberuscapital.com/about_comp_prof.html