What's up with Grant, Part 2: How do we fix this?

[SnakeLH2006]

Made a topic a month ago as to what's the deal with Ryan Grant, but even after a "good" game last week vs. the Bears, he still seems lackluster from what we and TT (gonna give you a big deal even though you are 3 years removed from FA, but hey we locked down 1 year of UFA with this 'great' deal) thought last year.

I watched that game with Bear and Packer buddies and his one run early over 20 yards was his first since very early vs. the Vikes and DAMN if it didn't look like he lost a step from last years breakaway Grant. Dude is noticeably slower than last year (nothing to do with the line).

Snake's Take:

Grant is an average NFL starting RB. No more, no less. Did he seem special last year, YES. But it's funny reading all these reports the last month from NFL scouting pro's giving their takes saying he may not be a top 50 RB in the NFL. I'm not paid to access as such, but I agree that is fair.

I'm not hating on Grant, but expected much more, it's almost as if the curse of the big contract (ala Freeman) has broached yet another "playmaker". I for one have advocated he allocate those funds to Jennings before the year before he reached unpayable levels to TT's realm.

I'm not saying Grant's deal was a dealbreaker for others, but damn if he gets 1250 years (his pace is 1258) he gets all kinds of guaran-damn-tees locked up. I for one like B-Jack right now (shows a burst and catches the ball for more than 5 for 14 yards over 10 games).

So how do we rectify this? Poll. OK. Thoughts?

[Patler]

What's to fix? He gets paid if he produces. What's wrong with that?
I wish the Packers had more of those types of contracts.

[SnakeLH2006]

What's to fix? He's very very inconsistent. One decent game was enough to win the Bears game with our good D. His inconsistency is maddening. He could have a 250 yard game and a bunch of 24 carry 58 yard games and lose games. My focus is on the consistency. He might get his "plateau" of 1250 but at his current rate it's not the same as someone such as Ahman Green who won games at 5.1 carry clip with numerous TD's just a few years ago.

I have nothing against the guy making his money, just personally I think he hasn't won any games for us ala how Ahman Green won for us just a short few years ago. Do you wanna be locked into this guy for big money for 4 years at this year's pace?

[The Gunshooter]

Grant is just now getting his timing down. I was watching him closely the last couple weeks and his initial cuts are perfect. He is not under control when he breaks into the open yet that's why he is going done with some arm tackles but when he does watch out. I expect him to explode a 50+ run against NO.

[SnakeLH2006]

Grant is just now getting his timing down. I was watching him closely the last couple weeks and his initial cuts are perfect. He is not under control when he breaks into the open yet that's why he is going done with some arm tackles but when he does watch out. I expect him to explode a 50+ run against NO.

I doubt it..NFL teams gameplan against his running (I for one like Arod, but this is his beacon for no one plannin for him.....stop Grant and make ARod pass, he's good, but not good enough yet to win games by himself....or so the NFL book goes right now...thus, they stop Grant, opposing team wins). For the record though I voted Start B-Jack and give Grant 15 carries. He's not a back that gets stronger with carries if this season has any merit. He's ok, but start a guy who makes bigger plays THIS year is all...and I hope he does bust a 50 yard run and I'll eat crow, but doubt it. Grant is very subpar for an NFL starting RB (his instincts are very below par with any D ready for him).

[HarveyWallbangers]

He missed pretty much all of training camp and was noticeably affected by the injury the first several weeks of the season. He's been more like the 2007 Ryan Grant the last few weeks.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He's actually close to your 1,250 rushing yard pace.

http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=346392&highlight=#346392

This is what I said then:


Physically, I thought he looked better against Atlanta. I think he's healthy again. He missed some holes against Seattle. I think he's close to turning it around.

[SnakeLH2006]

He missed pretty much all of training camp and was noticeably affected by the injury the first several weeks of the season. He's been more like the 2007 Ryan Grant the last few weeks.


Dude, I'm not hating on Grant, as I liked him alot last year, but can you seriously say he looks the same as last year? And even so, it took 10 games to do it to get into "game shape"? No way he looks like the unheralded gamebuster of the last 12 games (with playoffs)....I DVR this shit to play back (without Packer pay) mind you....there's no way you can still talk about getting back into "game shape" with Grant.....he is who he is...an OK back that doesn't make big plays consistently. Damn if he gets caught for 1 yard gains almost EVERY down (or a loss) and occasionally busts one for 8. If he brought one back for 40 like he did EVERY game, late last year...we wouldn't have this discussion. Dude is not an elite RB...no excuses. Give the ball to B-Jack. 3.9 don't cut it.

[Deputy Nutz]

A bum hammy is a bitch. It lingers, it weakens the whole leg and cuts back on the explosion and top end speed.

Thats what is wrong with him and the glimps of him this past week leads me to believe that Grant is ready to go off.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I can say "game shape" and injury because everybody surrounding the team said he was affected by it, and I even called his breakout after the Seattle game. The last 4 weeks, he's averaging over 100 yards/game, 4.5 yards/carry, with 3 TDs. Those are very similar to the numbers he put up over the last 12 weeks last year. Not only that, he's faced three of the top 6 rushing defenses in the NFL in the last 3 weeks. It's pretty clear he's feeling much better physically.

[Patler]

What's to fix? He's very very inconsistent. One decent game was enough to win the Bears game with our good D. His inconsistency is maddening. He could have a 250 yard game and a bunch of 24 carry 58 yard games and lose games. My focus is on the consistency. He might get his "plateau" of 1250 but at his current rate it's not the same as someone such as Ahman Green who won games at 5.1 carry clip with numerous TD's just a few years ago.

I have nothing against the guy making his money, just personally I think he hasn't won any games for us ala how Ahman Green won for us just a short few years ago. Do you wanna be locked into this guy for big money for 4 years at this year's pace?

But he's not locked in, unless the Packer want him locked in. They can release him at any time they chose, with little impact on future caps.

I don't think he has been that inconsistent. He has averaged over 4.0 yards per carry in 6 of 10 games this year and went over 100 yards in another when his average was under 4.0. His last three weeks he has averaged 4.3, 4.7 and 5.8 yards per carry against some pretty good run defenses. He had a few weeks when he didn't practice much and probably didn't run as good as he could, but that happens with injuries.

In 17 regular season games since being named the starter he has 1595 yards. I'm happy with that.

[SnakeLH2006]

What's to fix? He's very very inconsistent. One decent game was enough to win the Bears game with our good D. His inconsistency is maddening. He could have a 250 yard game and a bunch of 24 carry 58 yard games and lose games. My focus is on the consistency. He might get his "plateau" of 1250 but at his current rate it's not the same as someone such as Ahman Green who won games at 5.1 carry clip with numerous TD's just a few years ago.

I have nothing against the guy making his money, just personally I think he hasn't won any games for us ala how Ahman Green won for us just a short few years ago. Do you wanna be locked into this guy for big money for 4 years at this year's pace?

But he's not locked in, unless the Packer want him locked in. They can release him at any time they chose, with little impact on future caps.

I don't think he has been that inconsistent. He has averaged over 4.0 yards per carry in 6 of 10 games this year and went over 100 yards in another when his average was under 4.0. His last three weeks he has averaged 4.3, 4.7 and 5.8 yards per carry against some pretty good run defenses. He had a few weeks when he didn't practice much and probably didn't run as good as he could, but that happens with injuries.

In 17 regular season games since being named the starter he has 1595 yards. I'm happy with that.

Those are good stats and I appreciate your ability to throw up mad stats, Patler, but most of those games were last year. This year he's 3.9 and inconsistent (stats don't show that) and really hasn't made a damn difference in wins vs. late last year. 5-5 vs. late last year with a similar QB rating if not worse (as Favre was worse in the last 10 games than ARod has been in his first 10)....what's the difference? Grant has been inconsistent. I love stats, but the dude has not been the same player.

I love stats too, but can you honestly say Grant is the same player over these 10 games vs. the past 10 games in 2007? Nope. Bring those stats please....I love ya man, but the whole thing is Grant has not been the same. I'd love to see the stats of the last 10 gemes of 2007 vs. Grants' first 10 in 2008. Dude is a liability. Bottom line HOWEVER you WANT to mix the stats, Grant is not a dynamo as he was last year, much more a liability and would love to see some stats to say he's better than last year or at least an above average RB. (3 games doesn't do shit in my mind..we got 10 in and dude has yet to be a gamebreaker). Patler? PATLER?

I really don't think Grant is much of an upgrade of B-Jack (I'm not call9in' ou out, but for real give his last 10 gemes in 2007 statman Patler, cuz maybe I'm wrong, but don't feel Grant has done shit this year....is all).

[HarveyWallbangers]

Those are good stats and I appreciate your ability to throw up mad stats, Patler, but most of those games were last year. This year he's 3.9 and inconsistent (stats don't show that) and really hasn't made a damn difference in wins vs. late last year. 5-5 vs. late last year with a similar QB rating if not worse (as Favre was worse in the last 10 games than ARod has been in his first 10)....what's the difference? Grant has been inconsistent. I love stats, but the dude has not been the same player.

1) This is like beating your head into a wall. You say he's inconsistent. I say he's healthy. He hasn't been inconsistent. He wasn't very good early when he was coming off the injury. He's been good the last 3-4 weeks. Maybe underutilized the previous two weeks, but he's averaged at least 4.3 yards/carry against three of the best run defenses in the NFL.

2) The biggest difference is the fact the defense can't stop the run. Favre/ARod may be a factor. Grant was a factor early, but he's been good the last 3 weeks and we are 1-2. Penalties have been a factor. The schedule has been pretty tough. We also lost the OT coin flip vs. Tennessee (last year we won it against Denver). Our kicker just missed a game winning FG (last year he made the game winning FG). Yes, some of it is just dumb luck. We've also had a ton more injuries this year.

[SnakeLH2006]

Those are good stats and I appreciate your ability to throw up mad stats, Patler, but most of those games were last year. This year he's 3.9 and inconsistent (stats don't show that) and really hasn't made a damn difference in wins vs. late last year. 5-5 vs. late last year with a similar QB rating if not worse (as Favre was worse in the last 10 games than ARod has been in his first 10)....what's the difference? Grant has been inconsistent. I love stats, but the dude has not been the same player.

1) This is like beating your head into a wall. You say he's inconsistent. I say he's healthy. He hasn't been inconsistent. He wasn't very good early when he was coming off the injury. He's been good the last 3-4 weeks. Maybe underutilized the previous two weeks, but he's averaged at least 4.3 yards/carry against three of the best run defenses in the NFL.

2) The biggest difference is the fact the defense can't stop the run. Favre/ARod may be a factor. Grant was a factor early, but he's been good the last 3 weeks and we are 1-2. Penalties have been a factor. The schedule has been pretty tough. We also lost the OT coin flip vs. Tennessee (last year we won it against Denver). Our kicker just missed a game winning FG (last year he made the game winning FG). Yes, some of it is just dumb luck. We've also had a ton more injuries this year.

Who is beating who's head indeed? Ahman Green won many games for us....you are turning this thread into a team thread. My only opinion wasn't about penalties/ Defense/ etc. but is Grant winning us games? Nope. End post. Look back at it. Thank you.

[Patler]

But he's not locked in, unless the Packer want him locked in. They can release him at any time they chose, with little impact on future caps.

I don't think he has been that inconsistent. He has averaged over 4.0 yards per carry in 6 of 10 games this year and went over 100 yards in another when his average was under 4.0. His last three weeks he has averaged 4.3, 4.7 and 5.8 yards per carry against some pretty good run defenses. He had a few weeks when he didn't practice much and probably didn't run as good as he could, but that happens with injuries.

In 17 regular season games since being named the starter he has 1595 yards. I'm happy with that.

Those are good stats and I appreciate your ability to throw up mad stats, Patler, but most of those games were last year. This year he's 3.9 and inconsistent (stats don't show that) and really hasn't made a damn difference in wins vs. late last year. 5-5 vs. late last year with a similar QB rating if not worse (as Favre was worse in the last 10 games than ARod has been in his first 10)....what's the difference? Grant has been inconsistent. I love stats, but the dude has not been the same player.

I love stats too, but can you honestly say Grant is the same player over these 10 games vs. the past 10 games in 2007? Nope. Bring those stats please....I love ya man, but the whole thing is Grant has not been the same. I'd love to see the stats of the last 10 gemes of 2007 vs. Grants' first 10 in 2008. Dude is a liability. Bottom line HOWEVER you WANT to mix the stats, Grant is not a dynamo as he was last year, much more a liability and would love to see some stats to say he's better than last year or at least an above average RB. (3 games doesn't do shit in my mind..we got 10 in and dude has yet to be a gamebreaker). Patler? PATLER?

No, most of the games have been this year, 10 of the 17 I mentioned. He has averaged 4+ in 6 of 10 games this year. Is it his fault he didn't get 25 or 30 carries?

He clearly helped win games last year, clearly helped win Sunday against the Bears. Clearly played with a bad leg early. May have helped beat TN and MN if he had been given more chances to do so. I'm not sure why a 4 or 5 game stretch in which he was injured is bothering you so much.

[The Gunshooter]

Grant is just now getting his timing down. I was watching him closely the last couple weeks and his initial cuts are perfect. He is not under control when he breaks into the open yet that's why he is going done with some arm tackles but when he does watch out. I expect him to explode a 50+ run against NO.

I doubt it..NFL teams gameplan against his running (I for one like Arod, but this is his beacon for no one plannin for him.....stop Grant and make ARod pass, he's good, but not good enough yet to win games by himself....or so the NFL book goes right now...thus, they stop Grant, opposing team wins). For the record though I voted Start B-Jack and give Grant 15 carries. He's not a back that gets stronger with carries if this season has any merit. He's ok, but start a guy who makes bigger plays THIS year is all...and I hope he does bust a 50 yard run and I'll eat crow, but doubt it. Grant is very subpar for an NFL starting RB (his instincts are very below par with any D ready for him).

I am not crazy about Grant either but the guy is over his hamstring injury now and the o-line has the same guys starting three weeks in a row. They sure made Chicago look weak against the run.

You have to admit that o-line is not playing up to it's potential. I expect them to do a lot better but I do not expect them to get out of the first round of the playoffs.

[packrulz]

I blame M3 for Grant's lack of production, it takes practice to have a good running game, the coach has to be committed to it, and M3 likes to pass, pass, pass, so much you would think Lindy Infante was back. I believe you have to stick to the run because eventually the defense gets worn down and there will be a hole for Grant to run through, there haven't been a lot of holes for him so far, until the Bears game. Running would help in the play action fakes too. I think M3 should use Grant & BJack taking turns so they're fresh and hitting the hole hard. Snake is right, the running game has got to improve. Pound that rock!

[Fritz]

Okay...two questions.

One: you keep saying that Ahman Green "won" games for the Packers. Can you be specific? How did he exactly "win" games for the team?

Two: the inconsistency of this board is a little maddening to me. But he flip-flopping of the newspaper writers just irks me. The gnashing of teeth and moaning over TT's tight hold on the purse strings can become overwhelming - he won't sign free agents! He's cheap! He's too cheap to (over)pay Corey Williams! Yet when Grant started slowly, nearly everybody and his brother - even one of the newspaper columnists, for the JSO, I think - launches in on how TT overpaid Grant, he panicked, he was trying to distract us from Favre, and on and on. As I said, I get a little frustrated when fans do that, but I understand - we're fans. I do it a bit myself. But the newspaper guys? Come on.

As I fan, I can sorta kinda understand my fellow fans flopping back and forth. We're fans - thank god we don't run the team, that's for sure. I am, however, slightly frustrated and certainly mystified by the ability of sports writers in Green Bay to seemingly do a 180 without even cottoning up to what they've done. If you want an example, go back and look at the ongoing game blog in the JSO. The writer doing that work - I don't know who is was - had a snide attitude in his comments throughout the first quarter. But by the time the third quarter ended, suddenly, he pretended all was well. I mean, sure, you can be critical of penalties and some poor plays - it's a blog - but there seems to be no perspective whatsoever on tht writer's part. Based on the comments written in the fist part of the game blog, you'd think the Packers were playing like they did against the Queens. Certainly there are many posters on this board who jump back and forth as the wind blows., and it bugs me a little, but as I said, as fans I think that's more acceptable than a writer who gets paid, I think, in part to give us a little more of a perspective.

Heck, just look at the comments on the threads after the Vikings' loss versus the next week's Bears win. That's a fan thing. One week it's fire Ted, MM's in over his head, and so on. But when you read that same stuff in the JSO, it's irresponsible, to me. It's also hypocritical.

[Gunakor]

He missed pretty much all of training camp and was noticeably affected by the injury the first several weeks of the season. He's been more like the 2007 Ryan Grant the last few weeks.


Dude, I'm not hating on Grant, as I liked him alot last year, but can you seriously say he looks the same as last year? And even so, it took 10 games to do it to get into "game shape"? No way he looks like the unheralded gamebuster of the last 12 games (with playoffs)....I DVR this shit to play back (without Packer pay) mind you....there's no way you can still talk about getting back into "game shape" with Grant.....he is who he is...an OK back that doesn't make big plays consistently. Damn if he gets caught for 1 yard gains almost EVERY down (or a loss) and occasionally busts one for 8. If he brought one back for 40 like he did EVERY game, late last year...we wouldn't have this discussion. Dude is not an elite RB...no excuses. Give the ball to B-Jack. 3.9 don't cut it.

The 3.9 average for the year includes the games in which he was not healthy or productive. Look at the more recent games where he's been healthy and the difference is clear. He's healthy now, and productive.

Also, you have to take the OL into consideration too. Using last year as an example, the OL didn't gel until the second part of the season. That might be the case again. You can't really make a strong arguement for B-Jax starting because last season he struggled mightily behind that line too. Later in the season he looked good, after the line had come together and was playing well. Early this season, Grant struggled behind a line that was not playing well and was dealing with a hamstring injury on top of it. His hammy is now healed, and the line seems to be blocking better for him, thus his production the last few weeks has increased.

B-Jax had 2 or 3 good runs against Chicago, but what else have you seen from him this year that would warrant starting him over Grant? It's not like Grant didn't pop off a few good runs of his own against the Bears. B-Jax is not an elite RB either if using the same barometer you are using for Grant. And Grant's contract is not structured to pay him like an elite RB unless he produces like one, so his contract is irrelevant to this arguement. The guaranteed part of his contract is very fair to both sides given his production this season and what he accomplished last season.

For the record Snake, you should know that Grant is currently 11th in rushing in the NFL. He is less than 20 rushing yards from being top 10. As I said in another thread, nobody expected him to be an Adrian Peterson or a Clinton Portis. And even if he was, he wouldn't get the same production anyway - a RB typically only as good as his offensive line. As poorly as our OL has been playing up until this point in the season, you have to give Grant credit. He started the year injured, has had poor blocking almost all season long, and is still only 20 yards from being a top 10 back. Do you really think B-Jax could do any better?

[The Gunshooter]

The question we should be asking ourselves is can GB win a Super Bowl with Ryan Grant as the starting running back. I say it is not impossible but he is not ideal mainly because he sucks at short yardage and catching out of the backfield. The catching part is a killer in the west coast offense. He can be a great threat to run one 80 yards when he is in form though but a couple more years of playing and he will lose that too because he runs too high and takes a lot of hits.

It is possible Jackson could get a lot better but will he ever be good enough to be your starter? Ugh.

I wanted TT to sign Michael Turner. Now there is a guy who can do it all and he only cost $5 million a year. What would Grant have done then? Who cares. GB could of probably traded him for a nice draft pick if he refused to play for $1-2 million.

[Partial]

What is there to debate? Grant is a very solid back when healthy. He isn't in the top 10 in the league or anything, but he is good enough to win with and create some things with his combination of power and speed.

To this point he has been pretty consistent when healthy. He has shown that he can handle the load as a work horse. His fumbles also seem down this year, but that is without doing any homework.

It's very evident that he was not well for most of the season.

How about BJack? I really think he has made the biggest improvement on the team. His pass blocking has improved to the point of adequate, he hits the hole infinitely harder than last year, and he has shown a knack for a nice stiff arm. I think BJack will challenge Grant next year.

[Gunakor]

He isn't in the top 10 in the league or anything, but he is good enough to win with and create some things with his combination of power and speed.

I'd bet anyone a dollar that Grant is top 10 by years end. He's only short by 20 yards, and only has a couple games left on the schedule against tough rush defenses. Not only that, but he's shown an ablility to gain good yardage against elite rush defenses. Add to that he's healthy now, and if the OL is starting to gel like they did at the end of last season... He's good. I say he IS top 10.

[Zool]

Even with his bad start he's just outside the top 10. Partial you really need to stop with the anti-homerism. The Packers have good players. Every player has bad stretches. Grant is .1 ypc behind one of your beloved NFC East backs (Barber) and only 9 yards behind him overall, and I bet everyone here would say the Dallas O-line is stronger than the Packer O-line.