DEFENSE...UNABLE TO PULL STOPS

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/35172999.html

[CaptainKickass]

I haven't even read the article - but I don't relly need a headline that points out the obvious.

:P

[wist43]

I don't believe for one second that McCarthy believes defense is his number one priority, if it were they wouldn't be running that POS scheme and he would be screaming at TT for some playmakers.

Michael Montgomery, Colin Cole, Justin Harrell, Brandon Chillar, Jason Hunter, Jarrett Bush, Kenny Pettway, Tramon Williams, Will Blackmon, et al... That's before you ever get to the marginal starters.

All of those guys are fringe NFL players, but are being counted on to produce on a rotational basis... throw in some injuries to marginal starters and the POS scheme - not surprising that they suck.

Gimme a break... maybe TT will trade down 16 times next year, and replace them all with 6th round picks. Quantity over quality.

[denverYooper]

3rd and 15...

[KYPack]

I don't believe for one second that McCarthy believes defense is his number one priority, if it were they wouldn't be running that POS scheme and he would be screaming at TT for some playmakers.

Michael Montgomery, Colin Cole, Justin Harrell, Brandon Chillar, Jason Hunter, Jarrett Bush, Kenny Pettway, Tramon Williams, Will Blackmon, et al... That's before you ever get to the marginal starters.

All of those guys are fringe NFL players, but are being counted on to produce on a rotational basis... throw in some injuries to marginal starters and the POS scheme - not surprising that they suck.

Gimme a break... maybe TT will trade down 16 times next year, and replace them all with 6th round picks. Quantity over quality.

Well Wist, the 'ol "glass is half empty" theory is better than a busted clock. A busted clock is accurate twice a day. Pessimism is right about half the time.

Tramon Williams is a good young CB. Any team in the league would snap him up in a minute.

Brandon Chillar might just be our best LB right now.

Will Blackmon is one of the top return guys in the league and an average back-up and extra DB. If he ever gets serious about being a DB, he's got the talent to be a good one.

These are the kinds of guys you have on the roster to fill out a defense. No team has 19 superstars on their defense, including the Giants, Titans and the other top defensive squads.

But, they all have solid DLines. And we don't. We've got big problems down in the engine room. Other than Kamp and Pickett, each guy has had a so-so to miserable year. We really need a good RDE. Right now, we have the "headless threesome" at that spot. Thompson, Pettway and Michael Montgomery have yet to show me they can play in the league.

Cole is the JAG in "just a guy". Jolly never recovered from the shoulder trouble & his legal issues didn't help any. Harrell? don't get me started. The rest of the subs aren't really DLineman.

We need some big, strong, tough guys on our DLine that can form a rotation. Get a solid vet FA and draft a good kid or two. Check out the NFL scrap heap and get some freakin' players in here.

Until we put out the fire on the DLine, our defensive ship is goin' down.

[RashanGary]

These problems start and stop with the DL.

[RashanGary]

Tramon Williams has played really well (except when he got beat badly by Greg Olson and I think he was playing normal technique and he should have been playing to stop the short stuff with no fear of being beat over the top. Young guy mistake, but correctable).

Will Blackmon has no buisness ever stepping foot on the defensive side of the ball. He is the worst corner I've ever seen (and he hasn't played much defense for quite a while so I think htey realize he's garbage).

The DL is also atrocious. Absolute joke. And Chillar is a puss, just like Barnett.

The rest of your list I agree with also, esspecially that dog shit DL that you happened to list half of the players on.

[RashanGary]

And not putting Bishop in just speaks to the pussy ass mentality this defense carries.


TT had better start finding some better DL and Sanders had better start using his stronger defenders instead of going with the most clear pussy at every position.

[Pugger]

It would be wonderful to find a good FA D lineman, but will there be anyone out there? Most teams aren't gonna let a decent D lineman hit the open market and if they do it will cost ya a fortune to sign him. We could find somebody in a trade but that will cost us too. TT's history suggests he won't open up his wallet. :roll: So our best bet will have to be to find a couple of good ones in the draft. :?

[RashanGary]

There aren't too many really good DL in UFA, so more than likely it will have to come from the draft. Kris Jenkins was a great pickup for NY, but he was injured for 3 years straight and is now magically healthy. A good gamble (like Woodson).


I think TT thought he had a "good group". I remember him sayinig he didn't think he had stars, but had a lot of good guys that combined together to be something.

Well, that was before Corey Williams left and KGB disappeared. When those guys had damn near 20 sacks in the first 9 games of last year we were tearing it up. We were winning games we toherwise had no buisness winning except that we were deep and strong on the DL. Remember, as soon as KGB and Jolly went down we lost three of our last 8 games where we were otherwise undefeated with the healthy line. I don't think TT realized how much he lost and thought everythign was fine going into the season. I contend that he should have known, but now he has no excuse. It is obviously the weak part of this team. I don't mind rookies as much as veterans that suck. We just have to get some real prospects in and let the cream rise. We need to invest in that area, and soon, or this team will not get better.

[RashanGary]

Also, like the end of last year when we went to the playoffs with a weak DL, I'm giving up now. I didn't care one bit when we lost ot the Giants because I saw that shitty DL getting torched in the run game and getting almost zero sacks in the second half of the season. I knew it was over then and I know it's over now. Even if we somehow limp in, in this shitty division, it means nothing. Right now we're better off just losing and getting it over with. No team can win with a front seven (mostly front 4) that is embarassing as this group.

[KYPack]

Tramon Williams has played really well (except when he got beat badly by Greg Olson and I think he was playing normal technique and he should have been playing to stop the short stuff with no fear of being beat over the top. Young guy mistake, but correctable).

Will Blackmon has no buisness ever stepping foot on the defensive side of the ball. He is the worst corner I've ever seen (and he hasn't played much defense for quite a while so I think htey realize he's garbage).

The DL is also atrocious. Absolute joke. And Chillar is a puss, just like Barnett.

The rest of your list I agree with also, esspecially that dog shit DL that you happened to list half of the players on.

Chillar is a puss, eh? I totally disagree with you. I think he's a good player and will go down as one of TT's best FA acquisitions (course he's only got to beat out Frank Walker), TT doesn't get many FA's.

Get this, there are very few men who play regularly in the NFL that would be considered the "P" word. Chillar isn't an all-pro, but we would be hurtin' for certain if he wasn't on the roster.

Blackmon "has no business ever stepping foot on the defensive side of the ball & is the worst corner I've ever seen". ?

Got some names for you, Michael Hawthorne, Joey Thomas, & Mike Hawkins are the the worst corners I've ever seen. These guys never got their fundamentals down and never learned how to do the job. Blackmon has big problems with his fundamentals and must improve if he is ever to even be a regular in the nickel or the dime. He's got the athletic skill, but he's unschooled and inexperienced. If he works with Lionel Washington and gets serious about learning the gig, he may make it yet. If not, he'll be here based on his return skills. He's one of the best in the league at lugging back kicks.

[wist43]

I don't believe for one second that McCarthy believes defense is his number one priority, if it were they wouldn't be running that POS scheme and he would be screaming at TT for some playmakers.

Michael Montgomery, Colin Cole, Justin Harrell, Brandon Chillar, Jason Hunter, Jarrett Bush, Kenny Pettway, Tramon Williams, Will Blackmon, et al... That's before you ever get to the marginal starters.

All of those guys are fringe NFL players, but are being counted on to produce on a rotational basis... throw in some injuries to marginal starters and the POS scheme - not surprising that they suck.

Gimme a break... maybe TT will trade down 16 times next year, and replace them all with 6th round picks. Quantity over quality.

Well Wist, the 'ol "glass is half empty" theory is better than a busted clock. A busted clock is accurate twice a day. Pessimism is right about half the time.

Tramon Williams is a good young CB. Any team in the league would snap him up in a minute.

Brandon Chillar might just be our best LB right now.

Will Blackmon is one of the top return guys in the league and an average back-up and extra DB. If he ever gets serious about being a DB, he's got the talent to be a good one.

These are the kinds of guys you have on the roster to fill out a defense. No team has 19 superstars on their defense, including the Giants, Titans and the other top defensive squads.

But, they all have solid DLines. And we don't. We've got big problems down in the engine room. Other than Kamp and Pickett, each guy has had a so-so to miserable year. We really need a good RDE. Right now, we have the "headless threesome" at that spot. Thompson, Pettway and Michael Montgomery have yet to show me they can play in the league.

Cole is the JAG in "just a guy". Jolly never recovered from the shoulder trouble & his legal issues didn't help any. Harrell? don't get me started. The rest of the subs aren't really DLineman.

We need some big, strong, tough guys on our DLine that can form a rotation. Get a solid vet FA and draft a good kid or two. Check out the NFL scrap heap and get some freakin' players in here.

Until we put out the fire on the DLine, our defensive ship is goin' down.

I agree that Williams has some upside, but to say that Chillar may be our best LB isn't saying much, is it??? And Blackmon is a good return guy, and teams do need players like him on their roster, but he is of no help whatsoever from scrimmage.

Kampman has elevated his play to a level I couldn't have imagined, and Harris and Woodson have been strengths... but, they're both on the decline - Patrick Lee???

This defense isn't going to win the Packers any championships. The fact that they made it to the NFC Championship game last year is more a testiment to the fact that a group of players all had career years, in the same year... more a fluke than anything else. Kampman, Harris, Woodson, Barnett, Corey Williams, Jolly, Jenkins, Bigby... all of those guys overacheived, and played good to great (Kampman) football.

Coming back down to earth, what we're left with is just a bunch of guys JAGS... a very pedestrian group of players, playing a very pedestrian scheme.

[bobblehead]

Also, like the end of last year when we went to the playoffs with a weak DL, I'm giving up now. I didn't care one bit when we lost ot the Giants because I saw that shitty DL getting torched in the run game and getting almost zero sacks in the second half of the season. I knew it was over then and I know it's over now. Even if we somehow limp in, in this shitty division, it means nothing. Right now we're better off just losing and getting it over with. No team can win with a front seven (mostly front 4) that is embarassing as this group.

so you knew we had no shot last season huh?? Explain this one to me. How is it that the DL is responsible when we won the OT coin toss and if we could have merely driven to FG range we would have been in the superbowl.

People fucking kill me with all this doom and gloom crap. I will agree we dont' have much of a pass rush and we aren't very likely to win it all this year, but then again, we might play more like we played against the bears and make a run at it.

On defense we are 2 players away from being dominant. We need Jenkins back and healthy, and we need a guy who can apply pressure from the middle on 3rd and long. Our LB squad is not full of all stars, but they are all capable of doing their jobs and the DBackfield is full of studs. Yes, if you get past the 3 near allpro corners it thins out a bit....FUCK I can't believe I actually had to write that. Collins has turned the corner and between bigby and rouse we get a lot more good games than bad. Yea, our 4th safety isn't an NFL starter....FUCK I can't believe I had to write that TOO!!!

Admittedly when Jenkins went down and KGB never recovered it really ruined us on 3rd and long situations. You can blame TT for not being 53 players deep with allpro talent, but you will look pretty foolish for it.

[bobblehead]

I agree that Williams has some upside, but to say that Chillar may be our best LB isn't saying much, is it??? And Blackmon is a good return guy, and teams do need players like him on their roster, but he is of no help whatsoever from scrimmage.

Kampman has elevated his play to a level I couldn't have imagined, and Harris and Woodson have been strengths... but, they're both on the decline - Patrick Lee???

This defense isn't going to win the Packers any championships. The fact that they made it to the NFC Championship game last year is more a testiment to the fact that a group of players all had career years, in the same year... more a fluke than anything else. Kampman, Harris, Woodson, Barnett, Corey Williams, Jolly, Jenkins, Bigby... all of those guys overacheived, and played good to great (Kampman) football.

Coming back down to earth, what we're left with is just a bunch of guys JAGS... a very pedestrian group of players, playing a very pedestrian scheme.

you too wist?? How can you look so deeply into political stuff and just not understand the NFL.

You complain that blackman is no help from scrimmage...ummm...we got 3 stud corners, you're complaining that we don't have 4??

You mock patrick lee...what have you seen of him to draw a conclusion, that he can't beat out the 3 studs??

Jenkins had a career year last year?? I recall he was hurt early on and people were disappointed.

Harris and woodson had career years....yea, as in they played at the same high level they have for most of their careers. Both have had at least 5 very good NFL seasons.

Bigby and Jolly...yea, they have been in the league 2 years each and admittedly year 2 was their best year to date.

Williams...he didn't get on the field til week 12 I think....hardly a career year...for a second year player.

Again, I can't believe I actually wasted my time responding to all the rediculous posts here.

[KYPack]

Well Wist,

We may be in the same place, but arriving from different directions.

I think we have a ton of talent on that D, but not in the line. That DB group is very talented, a nice blend of experience and young skill guys.

The LB's are seviceable bunch and have good speed if Chillar is in there at SAM, with a healthy Barnett. (Mebbe Hawk at SAM, Chillar at WIL?)

The line?

I posted that one. We need guys to play and play a lot better and some new, effective guys. Our best two DLineman ain't exactly kids, with Pickett maybe at the end of the line. I think your "career year" concept rings 100% true for last years DLine. The return of a healthy, effective Cullen Jenkins has got to happen and may be too much to ask for.

For next season, Jenkins probably has to move back to his RDE job, cause we don't have anybody there now. Then, Harrell (a pipe dream perhaps,) Jolly minus the purple drank, and Pickett need some serious help in the form of new blood.

Where does the new blood come from?

I don't care, just get some serious help and get us some guys, TT.

From what I can see, Rob Marenelli will be available on the free agent DCoordinator market.

[KYPack]

Bobblehead,

Happy Thanksgiving,

You need a little oyster casserole, cheer up, Hoss!

[wist43]

Bobblehead, yes, I am very critical, as I absolutely despise the scheme - no room for creativity, far too passive up front.

I love the aggressiveness of the secondary - if corners can't bump and run, I don't want 'em. If Safeties can't rip your head off, I don't want them.

The LB's are just chase and tackle backers... and if you remember, prior to Hawk and Poppinga coming in, there was exactly zero toughness in the group - notice Paris Lenon getting his ass handed to him today???

This scheme is completely DL dependent... very tough to assemble that many good defensive linemen, and keep them healthy and in a good rotation.

Would much rather have a 3-4 where you can create pressure thru scheme, instead of just lining up and having to beat the guy across from you on every play. Yes, players have to make plays, and players have to beat the guy in front of them in a 3-4 as well... but the job becomes much easier if the OL doesn't know who is coming, and from where.

What the Packers run is very static. Easy to block if you know where everybody is going to be lined up.

And that is why I'm negative on the defense - scheme, more than anything else. I am critical of TT in player procurement as well, but not as harsh toward that as I am toward the scheme itself.

[wist43]

Well Wist,

We may be in the same place, but arriving from different directions.

I think we have a ton of talent on that D, but not in the line. That DB group is very talented, a nice blend of experience and young skill guys.

The LB's are seviceable bunch and have good speed if Chillar is in there at SAM, with a healthy Barnett. (Mebbe Hawk at SAM, Chillar at WIL?)

The line?

I posted that one. We need guys to play and play a lot better and some new, effective guys. Our best two DLineman ain't exactly kids, with Pickett maybe at the end of the line. I think your "career year" concept rings 100% true for last years DLine. The return of a healthy, effective Cullen Jenkins has got to happen and may be too much to ask for.

For next season, Jenkins probably has to move back to his RDE job, cause we don't have anybody there now. Then, Harrell (a pipe dream perhaps,) Jolly minus the purple drank, and Pickett need some serious help in the form of new blood.

Where does the new blood come from?

I don't care, just get some serious help and get us some guys, TT.

From what I can see, Rob Marenelli will be available on the free agent DCoordinator market.

I agree, that in this scheme DL is everything... and "serviceable" LB'ers just doesn't cut it in my book. I want my LB'ers to be the playermakers of my defense.

Unfortunately, I think TT is married to Sanders and this scheme. Don't expect any change next year... just 834 new draft picks. Quantity over quality :(

[red]

well, some guys to look for in the draft

we should be picking somewhere in the teens

DE

greg hardy
Michael Johnson
Tyson Jackson

these aren't just your pass rush DE's in the 240 pound range. these are big boys

DT's
Terrence Cody, this guy is massive and i saw a few mocks with us getting him in the middle of the first

[TennesseePackerBacker]

It would be wonderful to find a good FA D lineman, but will there be anyone out there? Most teams aren't gonna let a decent D lineman hit the open market and if they do it will cost ya a fortune to sign him. We could find somebody in a trade but that will cost us too. TT's history suggests he won't open up his wallet. :roll: So our best bet will have to be to find a couple of good ones in the draft. :?

Maybe the Packers are keeping all this cap space to sign Albert Haynesworth, haha what a pipe dream. That would be the best defensive free agent signing for the Packers since Reggie White.

[gbgary]

3rd and 15...


These problems start and stop with the DL.

the DL has nothing to do with playing soft-ass zone and letting receivers run free like they did in the last game. if you make the quarterback hold the ball longer (man coverage) the line will have time to get pressure. why he thought zone was the thing to do was beyond me. everyone knows our man coverage is the best in the league. the resulting pressure and close coverage has gotten the team many ints and defensive tds. this has kept the team in games and actually won some. our defense isn't perfect by any means but handicapping them by playing away from their strength is stupid.

[The Leaper]

Thompson has to get off his own thumb this offseason and spend some cash. There were impact FAs to be had...and we had the cash...but Thompson chose to sit back. You can't expect rookies to come in and improve this defense significantly next year.

[GrnBay007]

Thompson has to get off his own thumb this offseason and spend some cash. There were impact FAs to be had...and we had the cash...but Thompson chose to sit back. You can't expect rookies to come in and improve this defense significantly next year.

:bclap:

[Fritz]

Wist, you are one of the bitterest posters I know, but I find myself agreeing with you in terms of the defense. I don't like the scheme, but beyond that I am also bitter about this defense's lack of production.

I know Jenkins is gone, but he had a down year last year and the D still held up. Besides, if your entire defense is dependent upon one guy then you're not very good.

I thought the defense was going to be the strength of this team. As it turns out, the defensive line is competing with Derrick Frost for the title of "suckiest position group on the Green Bay Packers."

[wist43]

Fritz, luckily I'm not bitter in person, just hypercritical of my beloved Packers... I want championships :)

I am bitter about our inability to win more championships during the Favre era... yes, Wolfe brought him in, and we garnered one title out of it, but I see those subsequent years as failures; and, beyond that were it not for the mega-signing of Reggie White, we wouldn't have won any championships.

I can remember how excited I was about the Reggie White signing... I was home from work that day and just glued to the TV waiting for word - when I found out we had signed him I started making phone calls... telling anyone who would listen that we were going to win a Superbowl :D

So, I'm not a doom and gloomer when I see us heading in the right direction... what I see with this current regime is wheel spinning.

I think TT is a good talent evaluator, and a decent GM capable of filling out a competitive roster; however, he is detrimentally stubborn in his MO to the point where his inflexibility will prevent him from making the bold moves necessary to bring in those one or two guys who could put us over the top.

Beyond that, I think the schemes they run on both sides make it all the more difficult b/c the schemes they run require big time players at very expensive positions. QB, DE, DT, CB... you have to pay for those anyway, but in the schemes they run - they all have to be in place at the same time to have a shot at making a run... there is no room for the schemes to make up for shortcomings at any of those positions.

[Patler]

I am bitter about our inability to win more championships during the Favre era... yes, Wolfe brought him in, and we garnered one title out of it, but I see those subsequent years as failures;

That is why I have a hard time with the reverence paid to Wolf, and why I consider Sherman such a failure as a GM and as a coach. Favre was a young QB when they went to the Super Bowl for two years, I expected return trips. Realistically, the Packers were never really close after that. Neither Wolf nor Sherman assembled good enough rosters to take advantage of having Favre. I also think Sherman as a coach exercised too little control over Favre. Given free rein, Favre's risk taking approach squandered several playoff opportunities they had.

Wolf was good, but having one of the best QBs to play the game he managed only two Super Bowl appearances. I suspect a lot of GMs could have accomplished that with Favre.

[cpk1994]

Chillar is a puss, eh? I totally disagree with you. I think he's a good player and will go down as one of TT's best FA acquisitions (course he's only got to beat out Frank Walker), TT doesn't get many FA's.

.Ryan Pickett and Charles Woodson contest your claim.

[KYPack]

I am bitter about our inability to win more championships during the Favre era... yes, Wolfe brought him in, and we garnered one title out of it, but I see those subsequent years as failures;

That is why I have a hard time with the reverence paid to Wolf, and why I consider Sherman such a failure as a GM and as a coach. Favre was a young QB when they went to the Super Bowl for two years, I expected return trips. Realistically, the Packers were never really close after that. Neither Wolf nor Sherman assembled good enough rosters to take advantage of having Favre. I also think Sherman as a coach exercised too little control over Favre. Given free rein, Favre's risk taking approach squandered several playoff opportunities they had.

Wolf was good, but having one of the best QBs to play the game he managed only two Super Bowl appearances. I suspect a lot of GMs could have accomplished that with Favre.

Wolf excelled when building that championship team. But he flopped on the rebuild effort. He had some terrible #1 picks and made some stupid FA blunders. Mainly failing to re-sign Craig Hentrich. Hentrich wanted a mighty 1 million dollars a season!. Wof was too stubborn to pay a punter that kind of dough and we foolishly lost the best punter in the league.

Within a couple seasons, Craig's punts help Tenn get in the SB. I need to jack this thread a little. Did anyone else notice Ryan punting for Seattle? he got to do it enough. He has turned it around. Getting cut really sobered that boy up.

[bobblehead]

Thompson has to get off his own thumb this offseason and spend some cash. There were impact FAs to be had...and we had the cash...but Thompson chose to sit back. You can't expect rookies to come in and improve this defense significantly next year.

:bclap:

Like who?? We could have traded 3 drafts for Allen and then paid him keys to the city, but other than that I saw no real quality DL...which is why williams got so fucking much money.

[cpk1994]

Thompson has to get off his own thumb this offseason and spend some cash. There were impact FAs to be had...and we had the cash...but Thompson chose to sit back. You can't expect rookies to come in and improve this defense significantly next year.

:bclap:

Like who?? We could have traded 3 drafts for Allen and then paid him keys to the city, but other than that I saw no real quality DL...which is why williams got so fucking much money.Exactly. There weasn't one DL out there worth having.

[Pugger]

Unfortunately, I think TT is married to Sanders and this scheme. Don't expect any change next year... just 834 new draft picks. Quantity over quality :(

TT has nothing to say about Sanders or any of our coaches besides MM the HC. Maybe TT could try to talk to MM about Sanders but it is MM's decision on who is on his coaching staff. :?

[wist43]

I am bitter about our inability to win more championships during the Favre era... yes, Wolfe brought him in, and we garnered one title out of it, but I see those subsequent years as failures;

That is why I have a hard time with the reverence paid to Wolf, and why I consider Sherman such a failure as a GM and as a coach. Favre was a young QB when they went to the Super Bowl for two years, I expected return trips. Realistically, the Packers were never really close after that. Neither Wolf nor Sherman assembled good enough rosters to take advantage of having Favre. I also think Sherman as a coach exercised too little control over Favre. Given free rein, Favre's risk taking approach squandered several playoff opportunities they had.

Wolf was good, but having one of the best QBs to play the game he managed only two Super Bowl appearances. I suspect a lot of GMs could have accomplished that with Favre.

I agree...

[Bretsky]

Thompson has to get off his own thumb this offseason and spend some cash. There were impact FAs to be had...and we had the cash...but Thompson chose to sit back. You can't expect rookies to come in and improve this defense significantly next year.

:bclap:

Like who?? We could have traded 3 drafts for Allen and then paid him keys to the city, but other than that I saw no real quality DL...which is why williams got so fucking much money.Exactly. There weasn't one DL out there worth having.

That's just bunk; every year there are free agents at every position that can help. The crutch most anti FA supporters normally use is "he wasn't worth the money" or "overpaid". I can accept that. There were people available better than Montgomery, Cole, Hunter....etc...........and there are every year.