"AS FROST FLAILS, RYAN HITS STRIDE"

[Bretsky]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/35244379.html

[Brando19]

I thought cutting Ryan and picking up a Redskin reject was a stupid move by TT. Never should have happened. Frost looks like he's never punted in his life most of the time.

[denverYooper]

At least it makes Stock look good :oops:

[Fritz]

It appears - though there is no way to know for sure - that Frost was Stock's pet and TT went with what the coach wanted, thinking he was getting the directional punter the team seems to want.

It was a dumb move.

I was going to start a "fired Mike Stock" thread - he sounds not-so-good in the article, and his special teams haven't been very good this year.

By the way, why don't punters use the coffin corner any more? That would seem maddeningly effective. Instead of trying to drop it at the five and hope the ball bounces right and your gunners get there to stop it, why not punt it out of bounds just inside the ten? No return, the other team pinned behind the ten.

[KYPack]

ST coach Mike Stock owns this move and it should result in his firing at season's end. Jon Ryan is a helluva a talent that should have been coached up and developed, not run off.

Frost has the same problems Ryan had, minus the strong leg. I wasn't surprised that Ryan was cut. He was slow and when he tried to rush things, he would repeatedly hit returnable liners. Ryan's focus was on hitting long boomers. ST coaches hate those kinds of kicks, you can't cover them effectively. At that point, the coach is supposed to be a teacher and alter the players approach.

Stock's big move was to cut Ryan and bring in his boy, Frost. That failed and should cost Stock his job in GB.

[red]

"We're trying to make this right for this situation," Stock said. "He needs to wake up. I think he not only has the leg, he has the fundamentals. What he has to do is cut it loose."

i think we need to cut stock loose after reading that

what an ass

[sheepshead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0BFhgDcZkM

[Brando19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0BFhgDcZkM

:huh:

silly post

[KYPack]

It appears - though there is no way to know for sure - that Frost was Stock's pet and TT went with what the coach wanted, thinking he was getting the directional punter the team seems to want.

It was a dumb move.

I was going to start a "fired Mike Stock" thread - he sounds not-so-good in the article, and his special teams haven't been very good this year.

By the way, why don't punters use the coffin corner any more? That would seem maddeningly effective. Instead of trying to drop it at the five and hope the ball bounces right and your gunners get there to stop it, why not punt it out of bounds just inside the ten? No return, the other team pinned behind the ten.

I'll double post in this thread because it is a "pet peeve" of mine. A very long time ago, I attended a coaching clinic for semi-pro coaches. Which I was one of those guys. I went to the clinic on punting. They had a punting guru who was very famous do a complete session on punting skills. He would punt 20 punts to the coffin corner and place virtually every punt inside the five, with 10 or so of 'em going out on the one. The idea was, he'd work with a punter and refine his skills so your punter could do the same thing.

After the session I talked with other coaches. To a man, they informed me that there is now way in hell they would use the guy or have their punter go for a coffin corner kick. When I asked why, I was informed that a coffin corner kick looked great, but what happened when the punter shanked one?

I replied that a shank was a shitty punt and it wouldn't be that much of a difference between a shanked coffin corner kick and a shanked regular cover kick, both of 'em would be short punts. For this observation, I was regarded as a retard.

The coffin corner kick requires a very skilled punter, which you will lose in a period of time. ST coaches don't want to do that. Nor do they want all their eggs in one man's basket (so to speak). They want control and have the whole team involved. Have the punter kick the ball straight up with decent hang time and the coverage guys force a fair catch. No return, no short kicks.

ST coaches are basically all coverage freaks and feel kickers are a necessary evil that must be controlled.

Ask Mike Stock. He'll give you a similar explanation of why the coffin corner kick is all folly.

[bobblehead]

Stock comes across as a grade A ass in this. He sounds insecure about other guys helping him and one thing I have learned in life its those kind of managers that fuck up a business (or team). He sounds like the boss who recognizes an up and comer and instead of grooming him and using him to his advantage he screws him over and tries to bury him.

I would agree that if this is his move (as it seems to be) I would fire him if I were TT. Just the opposite of the above scenario TT put his faith in stock and it blew up on him. TT bears some responsibility too as he is still responsible for knowing when to veto his coaches. I also don't like the fact that stock still hasn't gotten Blackman to stop running backwards.....you can't break every return for a TD, sometimes you gotta take 6 yards and be happy. Walter Stanley anyone?

[Rastak]

Back in the day almost every team used the coffin corner punt. It was 100% standard from what I recall in the 70's and early 80's. Perhaps for the reasons you've listed KY it was gradually phased out of the game.

[pbmax]

You know its a bad year when McGinn writes an article killing the decision on the punter. Its not as bad as the personnel department throwing Sherman under the bus for BJ Sander, but its close.

Great story KYPack. Unless McGinn is hiding something, it sounds like Stock can't even make a logical case for Eddie Murray being OK versus Zauner. Murray fails his first test for a kicking consultant (its two voices instructing the kicker) but apparently its OK if the second voice is a former player. Moron.

[bobblehead]

You know its a bad year when McGinn writes an article killing the decision on the punter. Its not as bad as the personnel department throwing Sherman under the bus for BJ Sander, but its close.

Great story KYPack. Unless McGinn is hiding something, it sounds like Stock can't even make a logical case for Eddie Murray being OK versus Zauner. Murray fails his first test for a kicking consultant (its two voices instructing the kicker) but apparently its OK if the second voice is a former player. Moron.

Strangley enough in all of this we tend to forget that Sanders biggest strength was supposed to be the coffin corner. I was actually excited about him when we drafted him (not to excited about WHERE we drafted him though).

I have gotten that answer from so called "experts" too KY. They tried to tell me that the coffin corner is a very difficult and inconsistent kick. It leads to a higher % of shanks and blocked punts as well. I would really like to see the numbers on this to see if its perception or reality. I will say this, you don't see as many blocked punts now days, but I'm not sure if that has to do with any of this issue or not.

In high school I punted and since FG longer than 35 were unheard of in high school I kicked to the corner all the time....in fairness no one had a good scheme to block my punts when I turned my body at an angle to kick it out of bounds at the 5, but still, you would think if a shitty high schooler can do it, a million dollar athlete should be able to pull it off. And even if he shanks it and it goes out at the 22, what do you lose.....2 yards vs. the huge chance of a touchback with the drop it at the 3 and let it bounce into the endzone method.

[cpk1994]

It appears - though there is no way to know for sure - that Frost was Stock's pet and TT went with what the coach wanted, thinking he was getting the directional punter the team seems to want.

It was a dumb move.

I was going to start a "fired Mike Stock" thread - he sounds not-so-good in the article, and his special teams haven't been very good this year.

By the way, why don't punters use the coffin corner any more? That would seem maddeningly effective. Instead of trying to drop it at the five and hope the ball bounces right and your gunners get there to stop it, why not punt it out of bounds just inside the ten? No return, the other team pinned behind the ten.My question is, if TT was so unhappy with Ryan, which seems to be the case seeing as he made this move, why didn't he bring ANYONE in during camp? I don't count DeBauche becuase he was cut before he got started. WHy not give him a shot? If you don't like what you have you at least get others to look at to see if they are any better or push Ryan to improve. Allowing Ryan to go through final cuts an make the roster only to cut him mere days before the opener show arrogance on TT's part in believeing that he could just replace a player and majically be better a couple of days later. I do agree that Stock needs to be fired, but I also see this as kharma kicking TT in the gonads for being completley arrogant regarding the punting.

[KYPack]

You wudda loved the session I went to, Bobble. The thing that knocked me out was that the big objection "what happens when he shanks it?". was addressed right in the kicking demonstration. One coach asked that question and the kicking guru showed him the answer.

When hit with the shank question, the kicker dropped back further and proceeded to kill five balls inside the five most of 'em right at the one. He had a trick that caused the ball to hit on it's nose, bounce straight up, and die wherever he hit it.

His big thing fror the coaches was proper blocking schemes so the punter could relax, get a good drop and a strike, and follow thru fully. If you do that, you won't have a shank.

I really never could use the information from the formal session anyhow. Our punter revolved between a back-up QB and a OT. If we got off a 35-40 yard punt, we were estatic,

Did get some great fake punt plays that worked like crazy. They were given to me where all the good information was exchanged. From an old coach at the bar after the clinic was over.

There I learned the most important thing to know at a semi-pro coaching clinic. Always finish your draft beer before you go to the john. Otherwise some scumbag old coach will finish it on ya.

Being a Wisconsin boy, I knew that anyway.

[Partial]

Mike Stock, the Packers' third-year special teams coach, said he could not recall if Ryan ever asked him about working with a specialist.

"But let me say this about that, and not about him (Zauner)," Stock said at midweek. "I don't believe in those things, and I'll tell you why. One voice is the most important thing when you're coaching a team or a player. You can't have two different voices, especially long distance."

Former Packers kicker Dave Rayner used to work a portion of the off-season with Eddie Murray. Because Murray kicked successfully in the NFL, Stock said that was worthwhile.

Thats really hypocritical.

[Bretsky]

Is there really any proof out there Stock compained for Frost ?

I'm of the view TT wanted to upgrade from Ryan and he had his scouts studying the punters that might get cut and when Frost became available TT and his scouts made that call.

Plenty of reasons to dislike Stock; I don't buy that he had that much to do with him becoming a Packer. That's on our scouting Dept.

[RashanGary]

I was under the impression that Stock wanted Frost. Nobody ever said why it happened, but when it happened I remember Stock talking about Frost glowingly and almost throwing Ryan under the bus. I just got the impression that Stock wanted Ryan gone and reading this article makes that seem even more probable.

I agree with bobblehead that Stock sounded like a real micromanaging prick. At the end of the day I think hte GM is where the buck stops, but these coaches are looking shittier and shittier with every passing week.

[prsnfoto]

Is there really any proof out there Stock compained for Frost ?

I'm of the view TT wanted to upgrade from Ryan and he had his scouts studying the punters that might get cut and when Frost became available TT and his scouts made that call.

Plenty of reasons to dislike Stock; I don't buy that he had that much to do with him becoming a Packer. That's on our scouting Dept.


And if he did then those clamouring for Stock's firing need to be on board with firing the Turtle/boy lover if he is letting his coaches make personal moves.

[Spaulding]

Is there really any proof out there Stock compained for Frost ?

I'm of the view TT wanted to upgrade from Ryan and he had his scouts studying the punters that might get cut and when Frost became available TT and his scouts made that call.

Plenty of reasons to dislike Stock; I don't buy that he had that much to do with him becoming a Packer. That's on our scouting Dept.


And if he did then those clamouring for Stock's firing need to be on board with firing the Turtle/boy lover if he is letting his coaches make personal moves.

Turtle/boy lover? You mean Thompson? If so I don't see a correlation. The GM is responsible for the players versus the head coach, the coaching staff.

[KYPack]

Is there really any proof out there Stock compained for Frost ?

I'm of the view TT wanted to upgrade from Ryan and he had his scouts studying the punters that might get cut and when Frost became available TT and his scouts made that call.

Plenty of reasons to dislike Stock; I don't buy that he had that much to do with him becoming a Packer. That's on our scouting Dept.

Yer right on one hand, B. There is no documented proof that Stock ordered the hit on Jon Ryan.

OTOH,
But he did.

-Stock was pissed at Ryan on a lot of levels
- they switched Ryan from a 3 step kicker to a two stepper. Because you have to be a two step in the NFL. Ryan would revert sometimes when he would get rattled or have a lot of time. Each time Ryan 3 stepped, Stock would get pissed.
-Ryan would also hit the odd shank and way too many liners
- sometimes, when Stock's precious cover team would be in perfect position, Ryan would hit a 65-70 yarder. Fans love that shit, but ST coaches do a burn when the cover boys can't do their job
- Ryan was admittedly working with an outside kicking tutor (Zauner). The article spells out that Stock was pissed about that and considers it a negative factor.
-Stock worked with Frost in a couple spots and considered him a good soldier and reliable kicker

To me, that adds up to Mr Stock killing Jon Ryan in the office with a fountain pen when Frost became available.

Ryan has 20 punts downed inside the 20. Frost has 8. Frost is one of the NFL's worst punters

[KYPack]

DP

[Fritz]

There must be a serious shortage if there's no one out there better than frost. How about Louie Aguilar? Maybe he can get away from his brother in law's auto body shop long enough to punt for a few games. What the heck.

[MJZiggy]

Is Jan Stenerud available?

[Rastak]

Is Jan Stenerud available?


That dude could kick....and for a long damn time.

[MJZiggy]

I'm thinking with the way things look, he could probably still outkick Frost's last performance;.

[Cheesehead Craig]

"We're trying to make this right for this situation," Stock said. "He needs to wake up. I think he not only has the leg, he has the fundamentals. What he has to do is cut it loose."

i think we need to cut stock loose after reading that

what an ass
+1

Stock sounded like the blowhard that when one would question his methods he would just point to the resume about how long he's been doing this. He's one of the guys that thinks his age and experience are the only things that matter, not actual results.

[Patler]

So, how long has McGinn been waiting to publish this article? I have been casually following both punters since the start of the season, and except for gross average, Frost has been doing as well or better than Ryan until the last two weeks. Ryan has had three good games since 11/16, especially on his "inside the 20" performance, and Frost has had two really bad ones. But consider this, after the first 9 games of the season:

Ryan -36.9 net average, 7 inside the 20, 9 touchbacks
Frost - 37.2 net average, 7 inside the 20, 5 touchbacks.

After 9 games, Frost had a better net, and a better ratio of kicks inside the 20 to touchbacks.

Not too long ago there were articles in Seattle questioning why Plackermaier was dumped after one game in favor of Ryan, who was no better. I suspect by the end of the year, Ryan's numbers will look better, with Frost having 3 games at Lambeau and one at Soldier field ahead of him. Maybe 5 years from now dumping Ryan will look really dumb, but so far it has not been a significant thing.

[Noodle]

Patler, I'm hoping you're right that Frost gets it together, but I fear for him. I'm afraid he's not being able to forget his bad kicks.

Watch for this -- even if he hits the first one well, if another goes in the tank, he won't recover the rest of the game.

Dude is in need of a hypnotist, or maybe he just needs to hang with the DBs or some baseball closers to learn the art of instant memory cleansing.

Seriously.

[Patler]

Patler, I'm hoping you're right that Frost gets it together, but I fear for him. I'm afraid he's not being able to forget his bad kicks.

Watch for this -- even if he hits the first one well, if another goes in the tank, he won't recover the rest of the game.

Dude is in need of a hypnotist, or maybe he just needs to hang with the DBs or some baseball closers to learn the art of instant memory cleansing.



When did I say that Frost will get it together? I doubt he will. He has 5 games left for the Packers, and next year someone else will be punting for the Packers. My point was that I have no confidence that Ryan is the long-term answer in Seattle either. I think it is just as likely that 5 years from now Ryan will be with his 3rd or 4th team. Both Frost and Ryan might be distant memories of no significance.

[Fosco33]

Anyone interested in asking Frost - directly...

[MJZiggy]

Of course. I'd love a shot at finding out where his head (and his foot) is at.