WHAT GRADE do you give TT thus far in DRAFTS

[Bretsky]

HERE IS A LIST OF THE DRAFT PICKS BY TED THOMPSON. With debate lately about TT's method of pick accumulation realizing he'll hit on some and not on others, I decided to post a history of GB's draft picks over the past four years. I realize it's too early to judge a lot of these picks.....but this is just a dam forum so we can try to judge them anyways ! And I'm perfectly aware I have not counted undrafted free agents !

Numbers wise, TT has had 40 draft picks over the past four years. I'm too lazy to do the numbers as to how many starters, backups for GB, and backups for other teams those picks have produced.

Mark down your grade and feel free to comment about picks or overall track record.

2008

2- Jordy Nelson (Jets trade up to get GB's #1 and draft Dustin Keller)
2- Brian Brohm
2- Patrick Lee
3- Jermichael Finley
4- Jeremy Thompson
4- Josh Sitton
5- Breno Giocomimi
7- Matt Flynn
7- Brett Swain

2007

1- Justin Harrell
2- Brandon Jackson
3- James Jones
3- Aaron Rouse
4- Allen Barbre
5- David Clowney
6- Korey Hall
6- Desmond Bishop
7- DaShawn Wynn
7- Clark Harris

2006

1- AJ Hawk
2- Darren Colledge
2- Greg Jennings
3- Abdul Hodge
3- Jason Spitz
4- Will Blackmond
5- Ingle Martin
5- Tony Moll
6- Johnny Jolly
7- Dave Tollefson

2005 NFL Draft

1- Aaron Rodgers
2- Nick Collins
2- Terrance Murphy
4- Marvel Underwood
4- Brady Poppinga
5- Orange Juice Coston
5- Mike Hawkins
6- Craig Bragg
6- Mike Montgomery
7- Kurt Campbell
7- Will Whittaker

[Fritz]

I'm good with it; I'd like to see TT be able to hit a little better on The "A" level players. Maybe a couple of linemen, you know?

Elsewhere, he seems to do rather well.

[Bretsky]

I didn't list an F option as IMO that would be unreasonable.

It's actually quite interesting to see players we passed up at certain picks when looking through a draft

Leon Washington would have looked really nice at that Blackmond pick

[Bretsky]

fun to look at the past picks

2006 and 2007 sure would have different grades so far :!:

[Partial]

His 2006 draft was phenomenal. I'd be curious to see how other teams did that year. 2006 was the deepest draft in recent memory as far as I can tell.

2005 has at most two starters. That is less than ideal.

2007 has yielded solid depth and Korey Hall as a starter. It's not so great at this point.

[Pugger]

I think if a team can find a half a dozen guys in any one draft that will start and/or contribute that is a good draft. The draft is the ultimate crap shoot. Just because a player was great in college doesn't mean he'll be an all star in the pros. :roll: There are enough busts in the first round historically for every team to illustrate this fact (and guys to numerous to list that were great pros taken in later rounds and/or not even drafted). And it takes a couple of seasons before you can grade any draft so its too soon to tell about 2007 and 2008. Let's address this again in a couple more years...

[red]

i see him as a solid c-d if it wasn't for the 2006 draft

that was a good draft, even though i think spitz and colledge aren't good enough to be starters

[Noodle]

First, it's not too early at all to judge, especially since this is the way TT is developing the team. Besides, the guy now has 4 drafts under his belt -- that's a decent body of work.

Now for the eval: 2006 was a sick year for talent league-wide. The Pack also benefitted by having gone 4-12 in 2005. Draft position tends to be key, and TT's 2006 draft reflects its importance. A solid job, but not remarkable given the talent available and his draft position.

When TT drafted after last year's 13-3 run, his picks looked much more Shermanesque. If anything, I think he totally blew it by trading down for Nelson and letting Keller go. Anyone think that Finley will ever be half the talent at TE, a position where we've lacked a real playmaker since Jackson left, that Keller will? I like Jordy a lot, but we had other more pressing needs than another receiver.

Most glaringly, his line picks have been largely abject failures. No OL that TT has picked has done anything of note. The best you can say is that Colledge is now mediocre. Jolly is the only DL that has produced, and that has been sporadic. Haven't I heard somewhere that the game is won in the trenches? TT hasn't done squanto to give the Pack anywhere near the level of talent on the DL or OL to become an elite team.

[RashanGary]

B


Jennings is a probowler
Rodgers looks to have one or two in his future and that is a QB so it's double important
Colledge and Spitz might be our two best lineman right now. Very good picks
Lots of good linebackers and safties
Several good depth players accross the board



We need more DLineman. That's my biggest complaint. Sooner than later we're also going to need some OT's but I can't blame him for that just yet because we're doing OK with what we have. I'm hopefull for anohter year of several picks to really round out this roster and make this team physical up front going forward.

[Rastak]

B


Jennings is a probowler
Rodgers looks to have one or two in his future and that is a QB so it's double important
Colledge and Spitz might be our two best lineman right now. Very good picks
Lots of good linebackers and safties
Several good depth players accross the board



We need more DLineman. That's my biggest complaint. Sooner than later we're also going to need some OT's but I can't blame him for that just yet because we're doing OK with what we have. I'm hopefull for anohter year of several picks to really round out this roster and make this team physical up front going forward.


I'm guessing you are saying Jennings will be a pro-bowler this year (which I agree with) because he isn't one thus far.

[RashanGary]

I'm guessing you are saying Jennings will be a pro-bowler this year (which I agree with) because he isn't one thus far.

He's a stud whether he makes it or not. He probably will, but I don't care if he doesn't. He deserves to be thought of as elite.

[Noodle]

Colledge and Spitz might be our two best lineman right now. Very good picks
Lots of good linebackers and safties
Several good depth players accross the board


Um, you really want to hold up Colledge and Spitz as examples of good OL drafting? No way. They've both suffered from having to play different positions, but I am not convinced that either will be anything better than mediocre linemen.

And "lots" of good LBs? I'll grant you safeties, but who are these wonder LBs of whom you speak? Hawk has been fine, but he was a No. 5 pick, and I think his limitations are becoming obvious. Who else? Pop? Please. Bishop? Nada. Hodge? JAG.

[RashanGary]

I'd say Larry Mccarren knows more about OL than you and he's pretty enamoured with Colledge right now. I spotted Colledges solid play earlier, but since my opinion is but one internet junkies, I choose to site Mccarren's opinion.

Spitz has been rock solid and is even better at center (where he'll eventually be when Sitton moves to guard and we replace mini-me Wells).


In short, yeah, I think those are really good picks. You shouldn't expect rookies to play great out of the gate and 2nd year players have a learning curve too. NOw that they've matured into NFL players they're doing a really good job, esspecially Colledge. HE's a really good player whether you want to get over yoru first impression or not.



As far as Poopy, yeah, that wasn't a great pick but a solid ST/Backup type player in the 4th round isn't bad. I like both Bishop and Hawk.

[wist43]

I gave him a C...

Jennings is the only difference maker, nobody else is even a red chip type player.

Rodgers has been better than I expected, but he'll never win this team a SB... he could QB a power team to a SB perhaps, but not a QB dependent team like the Packers.

Hawk has turned into what some of us feared... a JAG; so, even though he is a legitmate NFL player and not a bust, for the 5th pick he's a disappointment. Harrell is a bust.

Everybody is else is just a bunch of "so what"... marginal starters, career backups, and fringe players.

Quantity over quality... we're spinning our wheels, and will continue to do so for a number of years. TT's not going anywhere, neither is MM. They'd have to bottom out to be ousted, and I don't see that happening. They should be able to stay in the 8-8 to 10-6 range perpetually, but never be a serious threat to win it all.

[RashanGary]

Quantity of quality... we're spinning our wheels, and will continue to do so for a number of years. TT's not going anywhere, neither is MM. They'd have to bottom out to be ousted, and I don't see that happening. They should be able to stay in the 8-8 to 10-6 range perpetually, but never be a serious threat to win it all.

Haha. . . . Boy, you're observant. I didn't think there was enough information to deduct all that :) :)

[wist43]

I have Nostradomus like qualities :D

[RashanGary]

We'll see. I think I know where it's going too. IF TT can do something about the DL and to a lesser extent the OL (hopefully Sitton is already part one of a two part solution that would replace Clifton adn Wells) I think they'll be heading upward, hopefully winning a SB but at least being competitive year after year.

[wist43]

JH, I think they'll be competetive... but being competetive and winning it all are two different things. They'll never win a championship with TT at the helm unless he learns on the job, and makes adjustments in his approach... don't ever see that happening.

He's a good talent evaluator, but he's far too rigid in his approach. I expect they'll be competetive, I expect they'll make the playoffs some years, but I don't expect they'll be a serious threat for the SB.

[sheepshead]

4-12...13-3 nuff said.

[Joemailman]

I give a B range overall:

2005: Only 3 starters here, but Collins and Rodgers are much above average.

2006: Great draft. Impact player in Jennings, very good player in Hawk (he'a not been healthy for much of this year), starting DT in Jolly, 2 starting offensive linemen, outstanding returner in Blackmon, reliable reserve in Moll.

2007: TT's worst looking draft so far. However, it's still early. Barbre could be a starter next year, or in the near future. I see Brandon Jackson having a bigger role next year. Justin Harrell will determine how this draft is eventually evaluated.

2008: Just too early. Jordy Nelson looks like a winner. Lee hasn't seen the field because of depth at CB. Sitton will probably start at RG next year. Too early to tell what we have in Thompson and Finley. Taking a backup QB with a 2nd round pick looks bad right now.

[Bretsky]

4-12...13-3 nuff said.


4-12.....13-3.....5-6

[Rastak]

4-12...13-3 nuff said.


4-12.....13-3.....5-6



You said too much. :lol:

[The Leaper]

I'll give him a B...but that is mainly because you can't really determine the success of the 2007 or 2008 drafts yet fully.

Harrell is a potential bust in the making, which is going to be a blight on Thompson's record.

Clearly, Thompson can spot talent and can flesh out a roster with role players. The question is whether or not he can make a move UP the draft board to grab an impact player that he needs when possible.

[Packnut]

Watch the difference between Beason and Hawk and then tell me how good Thompson is. Harrell is a complete and total bust. Can't even hold the point of attack. Anything more than a C is just total ignorance.......

[The Leaper]

Anything more than a C is just total ignorance.......

Rodgers is a Pro Bowl caliber QB gotten in the late first...Jennings in a Pro Bowl caliber WR...ignoring those picks are equally dumb.

As I said, his grade will likely decline IMO as 2007 can be factored in completely.

[The Gunshooter]

Compared to Ron Wolf, TT sucks canal water. Wolf gives away more players than TT finds. Namely Hentrich, Paup, and Tony Bennett.

[Noodle]

I'd say Larry Mccarren knows more about OL than you and he's pretty enamoured with Colledge right now. I spotted Colledges solid play earlier, but since my opinion is but one internet junkies, I choose to site Mccarren's opinion.

Spitz has been rock solid and is even better at center (where he'll eventually be when Sitton moves to guard and we replace mini-me Wells).


In short, yeah, I think those are really good picks. You shouldn't expect rookies to play great out of the gate and 2nd year players have a learning curve too. NOw that they've matured into NFL players they're doing a really good job, esspecially Colledge. HE's a really good player whether you want to get over yoru first impression or not.



As far as Poopy, yeah, that wasn't a great pick but a solid ST/Backup type player in the 4th round isn't bad. I like both Bishop and Hawk.

I have to give you props on Colledge and Spitz after the Carolina game. They both played well, Colledge in particular (though they couldn't get it done at the end of the game on the goal line).

But overall, solid games, and if they keep it up, I'll re-adjust my view of them.

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

[denverYooper]

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

Stock.

[Gunakor]

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

Stock.

Bingo.

[PackerBlues]

4-12...13-3 nuff said.

Thompson starts his rebuilding process. Packers go 4-12. (Favre's only losing season! Thanx Ted)

Favre has an outstanding season, carrying a team that did not even have a running game for the first 6 weeks. Packers go 13-3.

Thompson sends Favre packing (no pun intended) in favor of Rogers. Packers now stand at 5-7.

Nuff said? Not Yet!

[cheesner]

Compared to Ron Wolf, TT sucks canal water. Wolf gives away more players than TT finds. Namely Hentrich, Paup, and Tony Bennett.

Bennett was from the Infante regime.

Look at Wolf's success of his first 3 drafts in the 4th year.

Players contributing to the Packers were Aaron Taylor, Wayne Simmons, Kuberski, Brooks, Bennett, and Teague.


In the same time, TT has the following players:

TT has: Hawk, Collins, Jennings, Rodgers, Spitz, Poppinga, Crosby, Hall, and Jolly.

Clearly the advantage is to TT at this point. Many of Wolf's picks emerged after the 4th year for Wolf (Dotson, Chewy, Evans, Levens, wilkens and Schroeder). It would be unfair to use them in the comparison because TT's picks have not had the same time frame to develop. Levens, for example, had 120 yards rushing in his 2nd year. TT will have a tough time keeping that advantage, but for right now, he is the superior talent evaluator.


Wolf's first 3 drafts:


1994 1 1 16 16 Aaron Taylor T Notre Dame
2 3 19 84 LeShon Johnson RB Northern Illinois
3 4 23 126 Gabe Wilkins DE Gardner-Webb
4 5 15 146 Terry Mickens WR Florida A&M
5 5 18 149 Dorsey Levens RB Georgia Tech
6 6 8 169 Jay Kearney WR West Virginia
7 6 14 175 Ruffin Hamilton LB Tulane
8 6 20 181 Bill Schroeder WR Wisconsin-La Crosse
9 6 29 190 Paul Duckworth LB Connecticut
1993 1 1 15 15 Wayne Simmons LB Clemson
2 1 29 29 George Teague DB Alabama
3 3 25 81 Earl Dotson T Texas A&I
4 5 6 118 Mark Brunell QB Washington
5 5 7 119 James Willis LB Auburn
6 6 1 141 Doug Evans DB Louisiana Tech
7 6 12 152 Paul Hutchins T Western Michigan
8 6 16 156 Tim Watson DB Howard
9 7 15 183 Robert Kuberski DE Navy
1992 1 1 5 5 Terrell Buckley DB Florida State
2 2 6 34 Mark D'Onofrio LB Penn State
3 3 6 62 Robert Brooks WR South Carolina
4 4 19 103 Edgar Bennett RB Florida State
5 5 7 119 Dexter McNabb RB Florida
6 5 18 130 Orlando McKay WR Washington
7 6 17 157 Mark Chmura TE Boston College
8 7 22 190 Chris Holder WR Tuskegee
9 9 6 230 Ty Detmer QB Brigham Young
10 9 16 240 Shazzon Bradley DT Tennessee
11 10 5 257 Andrew Oberg T North Carolina
12 11 7 287 Gabe Mokwuah LB American International
13 12 6 314 Brett Collins LB Washington

[sharpe1027]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.

[denverYooper]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.

I still remember the chant, "T-buck, you suck!"

[cheesner]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.
True enough, I suppose, but my point was more that Wolf's players took time to develop and people are expecting TT's players to be instant probowlers. Look at JH. Has a DT ever come into the league and dominated? I know it is dissappointing to have him injured and not contributing - but to expect a big impact from a rookie or even a first year guy is unreasonable.

[Rastak]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.
True enough, I suppose, but my point was more that Wolf's players took time to develop and people are expecting TT's players to be instant probowlers. Look at JH. Has a DT ever come into the league and dominated? I know it is dissappointing to have him injured and not contributing - but to expect a big impact from a rookie or even a first year guy is unreasonable.


Amobi Okoye, Sedrick Ellis, Brandon Mebrane, Haloti Ngata, Brodeick Bunkley to name a few guys who contributed to their team in their first two years.

Look at Cullen Jenkins stats for his first two years. 7.5 sacks 36 tackles. I know he later moved to end but as a DT his did ok.
Kevin Williams has 22 sacks his first two years.

I guess I agree with "big impact" being unreasonable, but some impact is not.

[hurleyfan]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.
True enough, I suppose, but my point was more that Wolf's players took time to develop and people are expecting TT's players to be instant probowlers. Look at JH. Has a DT ever come into the league and dominated? I know it is dissappointing to have him injured and not contributing - but to expect a big impact from a rookie or even a first year guy is unreasonable.

Wolf also added some free agents to push that team over the top, whereas the few F/As TT has brought in, have not had the same impact.

I think Harrel is going to be an adequate DT at best.

[Patler]

Harrell certainly may be a bust., but it is unreasonable to really judge him now since he has played both seasons without having the benefit of off season or training camp work to improve technique,etc. He has come in "cold" both seasons.

Next year he may show himself to be unworthy because he will either again be injured, or will have a year of off season and training camp work without improvement. On the other hand, maybe he will finally show why some teams were so high on his potential.

[pbmax]

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

Stock.
Its not quite this simple, obviously. Stock was also the coach last year when the Packers had one of their best Special Teams performances in two decades, all around. Last year the ST were clearly an indication of our depth and talent.

Which players kept are important. Tracy White is missed, but there may be other pieces either hurt or replaced for other reasons that are causing the dropoff. Our punter is not helping the punt coverage team.

The big question is what happened to kickoff coverage? Is it all Tracy White? I don't think Rob Davis was on the kickoff coverage team.

[pbmax]

Wolf also added some free agents to push that team over the top, whereas the few F/As TT has brought in, have not had the same impact.
FA was new when Wolf was here and the FA classes contained far better players than they do now. You will never see Reggie White or Deion Sanders caliber players in FA now, unless they are old or have off the field baggage.

Wolf also had the benefit of the June 1st cuts containing meaningful veteran players. Teams did crazy things with contracts in the early stages of FA. Now it is just a scrap heap. I am by no means saying Thompson is as aggressive as Wolf in this area, but to compare the impact of the FA signings is almost apples to oranges.

[Patler]

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

Stock.
Its not quite this simple, obviously. Stock was also the coach last year when the Packers had one of their best Special Teams performances in two decades, all around. Last year the ST were clearly an indication of our depth and talent.

Which players kept are important. Tracy White is missed, but there may be other pieces either hurt or replaced for other reasons that are causing the dropoff. Our punter is not helping the punt coverage team.

The big question is what happened to kickoff coverage? Is it all Tracy White? I don't think Rob Davis was on the kickoff coverage team.

I've wondered about Tracy White. When he left several players said he was unquestionably the leader of the special team units. Since ST tends to be a lot of younger guys, less experienced, perhaps the veteran leadership of White is missed. He may have been a calming influence, a guy the others looked to for leadership.

[Patler]

The big question is what happened to kickoff coverage? Is it all Tracy White? I don't think Rob Davis was on the kickoff coverage team.

I remember reading once that on kickoffs every team almost always committed two guys to Tracy White. This may have simplified things for other players on kickoff coverage.

Another factor between 2007 and this season is that in about half the games last season the Packers used "Mr. Wdge-Buster" - Shaun Bodiford. Tracy White said that Bodiford was one of the most uniquely talented players White had ever seen at disrupting the wedge. I find it somewhat interesting that the Packers have kept Bodiford on IR all season, and have not reached an injury settlement with him. They seem to want to keep his rights.

[KYPack]

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

Stock.
Its not quite this simple, obviously. Stock was also the coach last year when the Packers had one of their best Special Teams performances in two decades, all around. Last year the ST were clearly an indication of our depth and talent.

Which players kept are important. Tracy White is missed, but there may be other pieces either hurt or replaced for other reasons that are causing the dropoff. Our punter is not helping the punt coverage team.

The big question is what happened to kickoff coverage? Is it all Tracy White? I don't think Rob Davis was on the kickoff coverage team.

I've wondered about Tracy White. When he left several players said he was unquestionably the leader of the special team units. Since ST tends to be a lot of younger guys, less experienced, perhaps the veteran leadership of White is missed. He may have been a calming influence, a guy the others looked to for leadership.

The White move shows a Thompson trend. He will always go with a young player with upside over a vet whose topped out. White was a veteran special teams terror and not much of a position player. TT released him so we wouldn't lose Lansanah to the Dolphins.

Over time, this move may prove to be the best. But for now, this move damaged the team. White was a steady vet who provided both leadership and direction to the special teams. Lansanah is a guy with a lot of potential who may be a great player. I doubt it, but maybe he will be one.

The best move for our team was to lose a young prospect and keep a vet who provided some stability on the field. TT chose the future. It seems he will always keep a kid and let a limited vet go. That is probably the best course for growth, but it isn't always the only way to go.

[Bossman641]

The big question is what happened to kickoff coverage? Is it all Tracy White? I don't think Rob Davis was on the kickoff coverage team.

I remember reading once that on kickoffs every team almost always committed two guys to Tracy White. This may have simplified things for other players on kickoff coverage.

Another factor between 2007 and this season is that in about half the games last season the Packers used "Mr. Wdge-Buster" - Shaun Bodiford. Tracy White said that Bodiford was one of the most uniquely talented players White had ever seen at disrupting the wedge. I find it somewhat interesting that the Packers have kept Bodiford on IR all season, and have not reached an injury settlement with him. They seem to want to keep his rights.

I'd guess the biggest thing has been injuries. IMO, familiarity is the biggest thing on special teams. Knowing your lanes, trusting the guy next to you. Maybe it is just me but it seems like we have had a lot of turnover on the special teams.

[prsnfoto]

Compared to Ron Wolf, TT sucks canal water. Wolf gives away more players than TT finds. Namely Hentrich, Paup, and Tony Bennett.

Wolf was equally bad in the 1st round the big difference is how they used FA TT is a afraid of it and it surprises me since Woodsen and Chillar(who is a best LB right now) and Pickett have all panned out.

[sharpe1027]

Wolf was equally bad in the 1st round the big difference is how they used FA TT is a afraid of it and it surprises me since Woodsen and Chillar(who is a best LB right now) and Pickett have all panned out.

Is this sarcasm?

[prsnfoto]

Wolf was equally bad in the 1st round the big difference is how they used FA TT is a afraid of it and it surprises me since Woodsen and Chillar(who is a best LB right now) and Pickett have all panned out.

Is this sarcasm?


No

Rodgers is going to be good but he fell into TT's lap, Harrell sucks, Hawk was nowhere near a 5th pick in talent and he didn't have one this year because the Jets used ours to take Keller. I assume you feel TT is a great draft genius?
He has drafted well in the 2nd and later rounds to add depth but a lot of those picks are just guys, Jennings has been his best pick so far. We all know this could change I was ready to give up on Collins and he is finally coming into his own but to think he a genius is stretching it in my opinion.

[sharpe1027]

No

Rodgers is going to be good but he fell into TT's lap, Harrell sucks, Hawk was nowhere near a 5th pick in talent and he didn't have one this year because the Jets used ours to take Keller. I assume you feel TT is a great draft genius?
He has drafted well in the 2nd and later rounds to add depth but a lot of those picks are just guys, Jennings has been his best pick so far. We all know this could change I was ready to give up on Collins and he is finally coming into his own but to think he a genius is stretching it in my opinion.

I meant the conflicting statements about free agents. You state that TT is afraid of free agents and in the same sentence show how successfull he has been in free agency. I honestly thought you were poking fun at people who mistakently believe he is adverse to free agency. Let's not forget that he pulled the trigger on Moss and a few others, only get get beat out at the last minute. I don't understand why people think he is afraid of free agency. He is at least above average in that regard.

Who said anything about a genius? Strawman....

[Rastak]

No

Rodgers is going to be good but he fell into TT's lap, Harrell sucks, Hawk was nowhere near a 5th pick in talent and he didn't have one this year because the Jets used ours to take Keller. I assume you feel TT is a great draft genius?
He has drafted well in the 2nd and later rounds to add depth but a lot of those picks are just guys, Jennings has been his best pick so far. We all know this could change I was ready to give up on Collins and he is finally coming into his own but to think he a genius is stretching it in my opinion.

I meant the conflicting statements about free agents. You state that TT is afraid of free agents and in the same sentence show how successfull he has been in free agency. I honestly thought you were poking fun at people who mistakently believe he is adverse to free agency. Let's not forget that he pulled the trigger on Moss and a few others, only get get beat out at the last minute. I don't understand why people think he is afraid of free agency. He is at least above average in that regard.

Who said anything about a genius? Strawman....

Here's the list


Matt O'Dwyer
Adrian Klemm
Samkon Gado
Rod Gardner
Donald Lee
Maquand Manuel
Ryan Pickett
Ben Taylor
Charles Woodson
Frank Walker
Brandon Chillar

[sharpe1027]

Here's the list

Matt O'Dwyer
Adrian Klemm
Samkon Gado
Rod Gardner
Donald Lee
Maquand Manuel
Ryan Pickett
Ben Taylor
Charles Woodson
Frank Walker
Brandon Chillar

Thanks!

I think another factor often overlooked is that he has resigned a lot of players before they ever reached FA status. Those are effectively FA signings of your own players.

[bobblehead]

Compared to Ron Wolf, TT sucks canal water. Wolf gives away more players than TT finds. Namely Hentrich, Paup, and Tony Bennett.

you displayed adequate ignorance in that post, I'll leave it alone.

[bobblehead]

I'd say Larry Mccarren knows more about OL than you and he's pretty enamoured with Colledge right now. I spotted Colledges solid play earlier, but since my opinion is but one internet junkies, I choose to site Mccarren's opinion.

Spitz has been rock solid and is even better at center (where he'll eventually be when Sitton moves to guard and we replace mini-me Wells).


In short, yeah, I think those are really good picks. You shouldn't expect rookies to play great out of the gate and 2nd year players have a learning curve too. NOw that they've matured into NFL players they're doing a really good job, esspecially Colledge. HE's a really good player whether you want to get over yoru first impression or not.



As far as Poopy, yeah, that wasn't a great pick but a solid ST/Backup type player in the 4th round isn't bad. I like both Bishop and Hawk.

I have to give you props on Colledge and Spitz after the Carolina game. They both played well, Colledge in particular (though they couldn't get it done at the end of the game on the goal line).

But overall, solid games, and if they keep it up, I'll re-adjust my view of them.

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

MIKE STOCK

[bobblehead]

Compared to Ron Wolf, TT sucks canal water. Wolf gives away more players than TT finds. Namely Hentrich, Paup, and Tony Bennett.

Bennett was from the Infante regime.

Look at Wolf's success of his first 3 drafts in the 4th year.

Players contributing to the Packers were Aaron Taylor, Wayne Simmons, Kuberski, Brooks, Bennett, and Teague.


In the same time, TT has the following players:

TT has: Hawk, Collins, Jennings, Rodgers, Spitz, Poppinga, Crosby, Hall, and Jolly.

Clearly the advantage is to TT at this point. Many of Wolf's picks emerged after the 4th year for Wolf (Dotson, Chewy, Evans, Levens, wilkens and Schroeder). It would be unfair to use them in the comparison because TT's picks have not had the same time frame to develop. Levens, for example, had 120 yards rushing in his 2nd year. TT will have a tough time keeping that advantage, but for right now, he is the superior talent evaluator.


Wolf's first 3 drafts:


1994 1 1 16 16 Aaron Taylor T Notre Dame
2 3 19 84 LeShon Johnson RB Northern Illinois
3 4 23 126 Gabe Wilkins DE Gardner-Webb
4 5 15 146 Terry Mickens WR Florida A&M
5 5 18 149 Dorsey Levens RB Georgia Tech
6 6 8 169 Jay Kearney WR West Virginia
7 6 14 175 Ruffin Hamilton LB Tulane
8 6 20 181 Bill Schroeder WR Wisconsin-La Crosse
9 6 29 190 Paul Duckworth LB Connecticut
1993 1 1 15 15 Wayne Simmons LB Clemson
2 1 29 29 George Teague DB Alabama
3 3 25 81 Earl Dotson T Texas A&I
4 5 6 118 Mark Brunell QB Washington
5 5 7 119 James Willis LB Auburn
6 6 1 141 Doug Evans DB Louisiana Tech
7 6 12 152 Paul Hutchins T Western Michigan
8 6 16 156 Tim Watson DB Howard
9 7 15 183 Robert Kuberski DE Navy
1992 1 1 5 5 Terrell Buckley DB Florida State
2 2 6 34 Mark D'Onofrio LB Penn State
3 3 6 62 Robert Brooks WR South Carolina
4 4 19 103 Edgar Bennett RB Florida State
5 5 7 119 Dexter McNabb RB Florida
6 5 18 130 Orlando McKay WR Washington
7 6 17 157 Mark Chmura TE Boston College
8 7 22 190 Chris Holder WR Tuskegee
9 9 6 230 Ty Detmer QB Brigham Young
10 9 16 240 Shazzon Bradley DT Tennessee
11 10 5 257 Andrew Oberg T North Carolina
12 11 7 287 Gabe Mokwuah LB American International
13 12 6 314 Brett Collins LB Washington


and you havne't even gotten to the twin failings at LT...Michaels and Verba. How about terell buckly, anyone want to compare him to harrell?

[DonHutson]

2008 - Nelson looks like a future starter. Brohm, Lee, and Finley all look like major projects. Brohm is the biggest worry to me. I don't know if he has what it takes physically to play. The other two have the talent, I don't know about the brains and the heart. Thompson played a lot of snaps, but he hasn't really made any plays. Sitton looks promising. Breno, who knows? Flynn, better than Brohm but that may be damnation with faint praise.

Too early to say with any confidence, but the early returns are not promising. I'd say a tentative C-. Ask me again in a few years.

2007 - Harrell has been hurt, but since he was hurt when Thompson picked him I can't give Ted much of a pass on that. Jackson was expected to be a project and he's developing nicely. I think he'll turn out to be better than Grant before too long. Jones, nice start but he's getting lost in the shuffle. Rouse looks good when he plays. He could be a quality starter if he can ever get to the top of the depth chart. Barbre, for all the talk about him he doesn't get on the field much. And it's not like the players ahead of him are world beaters. He might be coming up on a now or never year next year. Hall is a decent starter. Bishop is a solid backup. I can't stand Wynn, but he's been exactly what they probably expected, a talent with questionable heart.

B-, higher if Harrell improves, lower if Jackson doesn't.

2006 - Jennings is a stud WR from a draft that wasn't supposed to have any good WR's. Hawk was a good starter, who's having a bad year. He's underwhelming to this point. Blackmon is a phenomenol return man. Spitz is a pretty good starter. Colledge is OK. Jolly was a good find in the 6th round, but he hasn't really stepped up as a starter. Moll is just a guy.

B, if the guy we saw last year is the real Hawk. If this year's Hawk is the real Hawk then this is a C. If the real Hawk is better than what we've seen, then the grade would go up accordingly.

2005 - It took awhile, but it finally looks like Rodgers and Collins will settle in as borderline Pro Bowl type players who at least have a chance to go most years. Poppinga has been a below average starter. Montgomery has been OK for a 6th rounder. It's a shame about Murphy, but maybe having Murphy would've meant not drafting Jennings the following year... who knows? You can excuse that pick.

A franchise QB at the end of the 1st and another Pro Bowl caliber player. That has to be an A whatever the rest of these guys have done.

That said, we always look at these things in a Packer vacuum. It would be more relevant to compare these drafts to others around the league.

[bobblehead]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.
True enough, I suppose, but my point was more that Wolf's players took time to develop and people are expecting TT's players to be instant probowlers. Look at JH. Has a DT ever come into the league and dominated? I know it is dissappointing to have him injured and not contributing - but to expect a big impact from a rookie or even a first year guy is unreasonable.


Amobi Okoye, Sedrick Ellis, Brandon Mebrane, Haloti Ngata, Brodeick Bunkley to name a few guys who contributed to their team in their first two years.

Look at Cullen Jenkins stats for his first two years. 7.5 sacks 36 tackles. I know he later moved to end but as a DT his did ok.
Kevin Williams has 22 sacks his first two years.

I guess I agree with "big impact" being unreasonable, but some impact is not.

yes there are a few....and there are flops. Now if we are going to ignore Jenkins time on the practice squad and count '06 as his first year instead of '03 he does indeed look pretty good.

[sharpe1027]

That said, we always look at these things in a Packer vacuum. It would be more relevant to compare these drafts to others around the league.

Bears:
2008:
1 14 14 Chris Williams OT Vanderbilt
2 13 44 Matt Forte RB Tulane
3 7 70 Earl Bennett WR Vanderbilt
3 27 90 Marcus Harrison DT Arkansas
4 21 120 Craig Steltz S Louisiana State
5 7 142 Zack Bowman CB Nebraska
5 23 158 Kellen Davis TE Michigan State
7 1 208 Ervin Baldwin DE Michigan State
7 15 222 Chester Adams OT Georgia
7 36 243 Joey LaRocque ILB Oregon State
7 39 247 Kirk Barton OT Ohio State
7 40 248 Marcus Monk WR Arkansas

2007:
1 31 31 Greg Olsen TE Miami
2 30 62 Dan Bazuin DE Central Michigan
3 30 93 Garrett Wolfe RB Northern Illinois
3 31 94 Michael Okwo LB Stanford
4 31 130 Josh Beekman OG Boston College
5 30 167 Kevin Payne CB Louisiana-Monroe
5 31 168 Corey Graham CB New Hampshire
7 11 221 Trumaine McBride CB Mississippi
7 31 241 Aaron Brant OT Iowa State

2006:
2 10 42 Danieal Manning S Abilene Christian
2 25 57 Devin Hester WR Miami
3 9 73 Dusty Dvoracek DT Oklahoma
4 23 120 Jamar Williams LB Arizona State
5 27 159 Mark Anderson DE Alabama
6 26 195 J.D. Runnells FB Oklahoma
6 31 200 Tyler Reed OG Penn State

2005:
1 4 4 Cedric Benson RB Texas
2 7 39 Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma
4 5 106 Kyle Orton QB Purdue
5 4 140 Airese Currie WR Clemson
6 7 181 Chris Harris CB Louisiana-Monroe
7 6 220 Rodriques Wilson LB South Carolina

[bobblehead]

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

Stock.
Its not quite this simple, obviously. Stock was also the coach last year when the Packers had one of their best Special Teams performances in two decades, all around. Last year the ST were clearly an indication of our depth and talent.

Which players kept are important. Tracy White is missed, but there may be other pieces either hurt or replaced for other reasons that are causing the dropoff. Our punter is not helping the punt coverage team.

The big question is what happened to kickoff coverage? Is it all Tracy White? I don't think Rob Davis was on the kickoff coverage team.

I've wondered about Tracy White. When he left several players said he was unquestionably the leader of the special team units. Since ST tends to be a lot of younger guys, less experienced, perhaps the veteran leadership of White is missed. He may have been a calming influence, a guy the others looked to for leadership.

I knew it, all those people saying brett was the inspiration and its tracy white all along :shock:

[DonHutson]

That said, we always look at these things in a Packer vacuum. It would be more relevant to compare these drafts to others around the league.

Bears:
2008:


That's the spirit, Sharpe! Maybe Baddest Bear can offer a more educated point of view on these drafts, but to me Orton, Anderson, and Forte are the real standout picks. Hester and Manning were good values.

Maybe some of those guys will turn into players and I don't pay enough attention to the Bears to know it, but I'd say those are close but slightly worse than Ted's drafts.

[bobblehead]

don, I saw a pattern. As you went backwards (meaning the players have had time to develope) the grades got better and ended with an A. If that says anything its that he is finding adequate talent and the coaches are developing it.

I do think its time to REALLY focus on the DL and maybe even LT in this draft.

[sharpe1027]

Bears:
2005:
1 4 4 Cedric Benson RB Texas
2 7 39 Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma
4 5 106 Kyle Orton QB Purdue
5 4 140 Airese Currie WR Clemson
6 7 181 Chris Harris CB Louisiana-Monroe
7 6 220 Rodriques Wilson LB South Carolina

Cedric Benson -a dissappointment, now gone.
Mark Bradley -released after only two years.
Kyle Orton - their best QB, but that's not saying much.
Airese Currie - always injured and released after two years.
Chris Harris - started as a rookie, was eventually traded.
Rodriques Wilson - backup that has since been released.

Draft grade: D+

[DonHutson]

don, I saw a pattern. As you went backwards (meaning the players have had time to develope) the grades got better and ended with an A. If that says anything its that he is finding adequate talent and the coaches are developing it.


I think that's true. Looking at last year there is a lot of room to improve from a C-. My skepticism aside, it's certainly possible that guys like Lee or Finley could get much better.

I also think the OL is the exception, where a lot of mid round or higher picks have been invested with not much positive development afterward.

Coaches tend to be an overlooked part of the personnel equation. A staff full of good teachers can make a GM look better than he is. Was Ron Wolf really a master at finding late round gems or did Holmgren have a staff in place that could take marginal talent and turn them into players? Of course it can work the other way too. Hard to know which is which from the outside.

[cheesner]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.
True enough, I suppose, but my point was more that Wolf's players took time to develop and people are expecting TT's players to be instant probowlers. Look at JH. Has a DT ever come into the league and dominated? I know it is dissappointing to have him injured and not contributing - but to expect a big impact from a rookie or even a first year guy is unreasonable.


Amobi Okoye, Sedrick Ellis, Brandon Mebrane, Haloti Ngata, Brodeick Bunkley to name a few guys who contributed to their team in their first two years.

Look at Cullen Jenkins stats for his first two years. 7.5 sacks 36 tackles. I know he later moved to end but as a DT his did ok.
Kevin Williams has 22 sacks his first two years.

I guess I agree with "big impact" being unreasonable, but some impact is not.

Sedric Ellis: 22 tackles 2 sacks. He is tied for 13th in tackles for the team
Amobi Okoye: 14 tackles 0 sacks.
Brandon Mebrane: 29 tackles 4 sacks
Ngata: 41 tackles 1 sack
31 tackles 3 sacks (in his 2nd year - he is currently in his 3rd)

Harrell : 12 tackles 0 sacks in 1/2 a season.

Brandon is a DE, so he shouldn't be considered. But, statistically, JH is not that much different than the guys you mention. Stats don't tell the full story, and you can make arguments on both sides with that.

Current DT studs in 2nd year

Haynesworth 32T 2.5S
Kris Jenkins 44T 7S
K.Williams 70T 12S
J. WIlliams 14T 2S
C. Hampton 40T 2S


Well Jenkins and KW did very well early, but the other 3 weren't significantly statistically better than JH at this point in their careers.

I don't consider JH a bust yet - a disappointment so far, but not a bust. He still has a potentially great career ahead of him.

[Freak Out]

I want to see Colledge and Jared Allen fight sometime.

[DonHutson]

I want to see Colledge and Jared Allen fight sometime.

Allen would cheat. Biting... scratching... groin stuff.

[Fritz]

And Colledge wouldn't? I bet that guy would chew a hole in your nutsack at the bottom of a pile!

[DonHutson]

And Colledge wouldn't? I bet that guy would chew a hole in your nutsack at the bottom of a pile!

I don't think he would. That's why he's a mediocre guard.

Spitz or Wells on the other hand, I believe they would do whatever it takes.

[Tarlam!]

He's a good talent evaluator, but he's far too rigid in his approach.

Well, he surprised a lot of people in the last draft by trading up to get Thompson. That doesn't speak rigidity to me. Neither does firing two punters in one season.

I voted "C", too.

[Partial]

That is downright ignorant to compare Harrell to a 3-4 Nose... Not even close to comparable.

[Packers4Ever]

That is downright ignorant to compare Harrell to a 3-4 Nose... Not even close to comparable.

I think you all might enjoy checking out the Forum at

www.packerchatters.com. There are a number of people

commenting on about the same discussion

heard here. You can read without joining. Look for the

section of topics on MM, TT, ARod, Bob Harlan...etc.. their feelings strongly

parallel the same as those in this thread.