Vote for Change!! Change you can believe in!!

[Partial]

Vanilla Bob has gotta go!

[Partial]

One requirement I would want out of a new coordinator would be to continue the press coverage. We've got three guys that are skilled at it.

[MJZiggy]

What if we were to do something crazy like mix up the coverages? (caveat--unless Steve Smith is on the field...)

[Joemailman]

Packers have lost 4 games this year in which they had a 4th quarter lead. They have to make a change at defense. If MM refuses to make the change, he will be putting his future as HC in jeopardy.

[gbgary]

yup. that's our strength and why they keep getting away from it is beyond me. playing man earlier in the game got us sacks and stops. giving it away like that again is totally unacceptable.

[TheCheese]

Alright, it sounds like we are all in favor of getting a new D coordinator, now here's the question.

Which Defense coordinator would you guys be in favor or bringing that's going to be available this off season?

[red]

its either TT's drafting of poor talent, or the d cord not doing anything with good talent

[Joemailman]

Alright, it sounds like we are all in favor of getting a new D coordinator, now here's the question.

Which Defense coordinator would you guys be in favor or bringing that's going to be available this off season?

When McCarthy first interviewed Winston Moss, Moss asked for the opportunity to be interviewed for the DC position, but McCarthy wanted to go with Sanders. Moss could get his chance this time.

[TheCheese]

Alright, it sounds like we are all in favor of getting a new D coordinator, now here's the question.

Which Defense coordinator would you guys be in favor or bringing that's going to be available this off season?

When McCarthy first interviewed Winston Moss, Moss asked for the opportunity to be interviewed for the DC position, but McCarthy wanted to go with Sanders. Moss could get his chance this time.

I was hoping we could get someone with an aggressive scheme who already has a proven track record.

[packers11]

Jim Johnson if Andy Reid gets fired and he doesn't get the HC job...

[Joemailman]

Well, I see Bob Sanders has his vote in. :lol:

[The Leaper]

its either TT's drafting of poor talent, or the d cord not doing anything with good talent

Or a combination of both.

I think a good bulk of blame should be directed at the coaching staff on defense. None of the young DL prospects have really stood up and become a consistent threat. Our LBs are good, but don't make plays. I'll give the secondary a pass...lots of injuries and the defensive playcalling leaves them exposed. WHen it is 3rd and 10+, you ALWAYS blitz IMO. Force the QB to get rid of the ball sooner than he wants to. Rushing 3 and dropping into zone is moronic.

[pbmax]

What if we were to do something crazy like mix up the coverages? (caveat--unless Steve Smith is on the field...)
That didn't work against the Saints either.

[Partial]

This is more lopsided than this years election!!

The people have spoken.

Does anyone have TT and MMs email addresses?

[pbmax]

Actually, I voted for change, but I think the coaching has a specific, not widepread problem. Despite thousands of messages on secondary coverage, Schottenheimer and Washington have gotten very good play from some of the youngsters.

And the LB corp, while not lights out, might have maxed it's production. Hawk seems suited more to the middle but a move of Barnett will be tough after becoming entrenched. Poppinga is what he is, not a natural linebacker but has at least improved his liabilities to below average from awful.

The specific area is D Line. Corey Williams might have provided more pass rush from DT, but he was not an all around $8 million/yr player. Pickett and Jolly haven't been able to hold the center. Pickett is a strange case. He was never the immovable object Grady Jackson was, but he's slipped.

I haven't thought we had the pass rush talent necessary since before Williams left. And its clear now we can't stop the run. I put the blame on the GM. He needs to find more parts here.

But the onus is on the scheme to improvise with the lack of pass rush. I am not sure it can be done when your best blitzer is a backup LB or CB. Pass rush is hardest to find outside of a starting caliber QB. The scheme has to make it work. Even focusing on D Line doesn't mean the pass rush will improve. And except for QB, no position has wasted more money than pass rushing FAs.

One thing I do know, we won't be playing a 3-4 as a base defense unless they start from scratch.

[RashanGary]

I'd be OK with getting rid of Sanders, but I'm with PB here. The buck starts and stops with TT on this one. The DL is bad. Not average, but really bad.

A below average season or two does not make a bad GM, but this is a problem that cannot be let go this offseason. At the very least we need young guys who might not be great right away, but we have to know the answer is being developed. Right now we suck and we have nothing coming up that makes you think it's going to get better. That's the double suck. It's similar to the OL situation of a few years back.

Now, when TT got here, after he added Pickett and Jolly the DL was one of the stronger parts of the team. Maybe he didn't quite see it crumbling and maybe it wasn't incredibly obvious until it was too late, but now we all know. Now it has to get fixed and this looks like a draft/FA period that will provide several oportunities. If nothing is really available I guess I understand that not all problems can be solved immediately and if forced could get worse, but eventually (sooner than later) he needs to get thsi thing turned around on the DL. I'm really crossing my fingers and hoping for this off season having a lot of turn over on that area of the team.

[packrat]

TT wasn't blind to the situation--he went DL with his first choice in 07

[Noodle]

PB, good observations, especially about the quality of the DB coaching.

Here's where I'm confused. We play man because that's what our DBs are good at -- we don't force them to play in a zone system that does not suit their talents.

Yet we don't sseem to scheme for whatever talents our front 7 has. And yeah, they (the DL at least) generally suck, but I suspect there are things they suck less at than others. Or there are things they can do (stunting, zone blitzing) that lessens their inate suckness. So why don't the coaches figure that out?

My view is you match scheme to players, not vice versa.

[pbmax]

TT wasn't blind to the situation--he went DL with his first choice in 07
This is true. And it also illustrates the larger point. The Eagles have been collecting lineman for years like TT collects WRs and DBs, yet even they have had to sign Javon Kearse when the draft picks bust. Anyone seen William Justice recently (he was the USC tackle, right?)?

No one is completely satisfied with the O Line, but they have played well enough to win. And they have a lot of spare parts and young improving players The D Line needs the same attention for a few years. Its not a one first round pick or one FA away from being fixed.

As for scheme, Sanders has started to blitz more, as even more lineman are hurt. Poppinga was at LE on the last drive's pass rush. And they got close to home a couple of times. But whatever Sanders plays behind it has been getting beaten deep or given up big plays on short passes. There have been times this year that our coverage in anything other than the base D or nickel, looks as bad as it did in '06.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

I miss Jim Bates :( he made an average defense good...though if there is an NFL team that has a worse D-line than the Packers it's the Bronco's.

[sheepshead]

Packers have lost 4 games this year in which they had a 4th quarter lead. They have to make a change at defense. If MM refuses to make the change, he will be putting his future as HC in jeopardy.

Wow, good point.

[Harlan Huckleby]

its either TT's drafting of poor talent, or the d cord not doing anything with good talent

or injuries on a defensive line where they already had below-average overall talent.

you expect TT to have studs for every position group? would be nice, but only comes around every decade or two.

BTW, I kept my eye on Mike Montgomery for many plays yesterday. Wow! I'm not sure there has EVER been an NFL player with that combined lack of strength and quickness. Its impressive in its own way, he's far slower off the ball than the tackles, and he bounces off offensive tackles like a little kid playfully banging agaist his dad. I guess when you are on the depth chart BEHIND Jeremy Thompson, the bar is set low, but this situation is embarassing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Packers have lost 4 games this year in which they had a 4th quarter lead. They have to make a change at defense. If MM refuses to make the change, he will be putting his future as HC in jeopardy.

Wow, good point.

Packers played a good game yesterday. They are evenly matched against Carolina. Carolina benefited from more turnovers and scored more points despite being outplayed.

I don't see anything that could be done scheme-wise to change the outcome.

[sheepshead]

Anyone else pissed that Rodgers and Collins should have fallen on those fumbles?

[Deputy Nutz]

This team's defensive line would be whole lot different if KGB and Jenkins were healthy, but guess what? shit happens and that is why you need talented depth on the defensive line, meaning you never trade away athletic versatile linemen if you can help it. I didn't mind the trade because I was hungry for more picks in the draft, but looking back on it, boy it would be nice to have Williams right now.

Harrell, Thompson, and Montgomery might have talent and could be productive in the future, but right now it is like bringing up JV kids to fill out the varsity lineup.

The point to all of this is that Bob Sanders defense looks a thing of beauty when the defensive line is productive in pass rush. the name of the game is getting pressure with the front four and if a team can do that on defense they will be highly successful and the secondary will look like gods.

The defensive line is also failing right now in the running game. Hawk, and Chillar are getting killed at the point of attack because not just one blocker, but two or three are leading the play.

Is Bob Sanders responsible, sure because his scheme is so one minded, but it has worked in the past and when the scheme was first brought here we knew that it relied on the defensive line and a good rotation of defensive linemen. Which currently the Packers don't have.

[denverYooper]

Harrell, Thompson, and Montgomery might have talent and could be productive in the future, but right now it is like bringing up JV kids to fill out the varsity lineup.



Good analogy.

[Partial]

While I agree with you in principal Nutz, the past two years we've seen the effectiveness of the linemen really diminish in the second half of the season, and Vanilla Bob hasn't done anything to compensate for the lack of pass rush.

When we don't have the talent to say "here's what we're going to do, stop us", Sanders needs to take a more innovative approach and try to find ways (stunts, whatever it takes) to get some pressure.

At this point, I feel like its to give Winston Moss a chance and see what he can come up with.

[bobblehead]

I'm gonna fly in the face of the conventional thoughts here. Our defense is not as bad against the run as the numbers show. That comes from being forced to constantly change the lineup due to injuries. We play the run pretty decent most of a game, then WHAM someone blows an assignment and we give up a 50 yarder. This happens when you are forced to play musical safety, or musical DE (none of which are that good against the run). We even had to move the LB's around now with barnet hurt. We have probably started about 5-6 different defenses this season.

Now for our real problem. When we do play the run tough we get to 3rd and 8 (or more). Our front 4 can generate almost NO pass rush at all. Our good talent at DB allows us to stop avg/bad QB's, but any legit NFL QB is toasting because he has all day to find someone. We used to rush a healthy KGB, Kampman, Jenkins, and Williams. Now its Kampman, Montgomery, Hunter, and Cole....I see a big problem there. We can beat Kyle Orton or Tavarius Jackson, but not Brees or Delhomme.

[Deputy Nutz]

While I agree with you in principal Nutz, the past two years we've seen the effectiveness of the linemen really diminish in the second half of the season, and Vanilla Bob hasn't done anything to compensate for the lack of pass rush.

When we don't have the talent to say "here's what we're going to do, stop us", Sanders needs to take a more innovative approach and try to find ways (stunts, whatever it takes) to get some pressure.

At this point, I feel like its to give Winston Moss a chance and see what he can come up with.

If you want Bob to be flexible, give him players that can be flexible. That is why New England has been so good on defense the last decade, because they pay and draft players that can do different things.

I am not claiming Bob is not to blame, he certainly is not creative, or simply doesn't trust his creative side. This pre season he was running out 3-3-5 formations, formations with nobodies hand down, and he blitzed the safety. He just doesn't trust that kind of stuff when the game is on the line.

Should he be let go? Who knows, Winston Moss hasn't impressed me with what he has done with the linebackers as a unit, maybe it is time for a complete change getting away from the Jim Bates defense, and going a different direction.

[Partial]

Yes we can.

[mission]

Partial, I'm really surprised we agree on something ... but Im actually more surprised there are two votes to keep him!

I would think with the personnel we have on defense, that we should be a lot more productive (obv). The interceptions are purely a result of the talent and have no relation to scheme and coaching. Our guys are severely underachieving even with regards to troubles on the defensive line ...

I would seriously throw a small party if we went out and got a defensive name ... like the redskins guy or someone of that caliber. Not to say a name is the answer, but at least I would have blind confidence instead of having to wait for an unknown's results.

[texaspackerbacker]

The problem isn't with the scheme. The problem is too many departures from the scheme--stupid blitzes that do more harm than good.

The last thing we need for the future is some damn wild-assed risk-taking idiot who blitzes incessantly. Check around the league. That kind of D scheme generally results in losing and long term mediocrity.

[Bossman641]

The problem isn't with the scheme. The problem is too many departures from the scheme--stupid blitzes that do more harm than good.

The last thing we need for the future is some damn wild-assed risk-taking idiot who blitzes incessantly. Check around the league. That kind of D scheme generally results in losing and long term mediocrity.

Tex, while all blitzing carries with it the risk of getting burned, there is quite a difference between reckless blitzing and effective blitzing.

Bob Slowik = reckless

Steve Spagnuolo, Dick LeBeau and Jim Johnson = effective

[Freak Out]

Packers have lost 4 games this year in which they had a 4th quarter lead. They have to make a change at defense. If MM refuses to make the change, he will be putting his future as HC in jeopardy.

Wow, good point.

Packers played a good game yesterday. They are evenly matched against Carolina. Carolina benefited from more turnovers and scored more points despite being outplayed.

I don't see anything that could be done scheme-wise to change the outcome.

How about doubling/taking away the best player on the field when the game is on the line?

[hurleyfan]

[quote="texaspackerbacker"]The problem isn't with the scheme. The problem is too many departures from the scheme--stupid blitzes that do more harm than good. quote]

Stupid blitzes come from a stupid, or bland scheme. The players don't blitz on their own.

The problem is a combination of scheme (or lack of) and marginal players.

[denverYooper]

Was it my imagination, or did they try to bring Poppinga on a blitz vs. Carolina?

[Patler]

Was it my imagination, or did they try to bring Poppinga on a blitz vs. Carolina?

The actually Poppinga lined up at DE a couple times in passing situations.
This is something they have dabbled with in the past.

[pbmax]

Dick LeBeau
How did Mr. LaBeau's blitzing work while he was head coach of the Bengals? :lol:

You cannot separate out the scheme from the players with our knowledge level. LaBeau has the players to run the scheme in Pittsburgh. Sanders took the Bates/Wannestat/Johnson defense and continued to play it. The personnel dept has spent 4 years acquiring players who fit it. Slowik might be an example of what happens when you play a scheme without the right players.

4, 2, 2, 7, 2, 27, 15, 9, 10 - Those are the rankings for Jim Johnson's defense in scoring defense since he started. Is the scheme not working as well anymore, or does Johnson not have the same players as he did early in his tenure?

Bates scheme, according to wist and Bretsky, is too vanilla to succeed. I think this year is a bad year to make that judgment. Due to injury and surprising position shortages (did you think we would run out of starting caliber safeties before we ran out of corners?), we are way undermanned.

Part of this was something we could foresee (lack of pass rush). Some was a unwelcome if not shocking development (run D collapse) and some was out of left field stuff (T Will playing at a starting level, safety shortage).

Given time, Thompson will find you players. But if value is your draft guide, you have little control over when. It would seem that in this sense, wist and Bretsky have a point, that a static defense might not suit Thompson's player acquisition strategy.

Thompson does not agree with the value over need argument and has told McGinn that more than once. In the case of the D Line, we will get to see.

[Bretsky]

Dick LeBeau

4, 2, 2, 7, 2, 27, 15, 9, 10 - Those are the rankings for Jim Johnson's defense in scoring defense since he started. Is the scheme not working as well anymore, or does Johnson not have the same players as he did early in his tenure?

Bates scheme, according to wist and Bretsky, is too vanilla to succeed. I think this year is a bad year to make that judgment. Due to injury and surprising position shortages (did you think we would run out of starting caliber safeties before we ran out of corners?), we are way undermanned.

Given time, Thompson will find you players. But if value is your draft guide, you have little control over when. It would seem that in this sense, wist and Bretsky have a point, that a static defense might not suit Thompson's player acquisition strategy.

Thompson does not agree with the value over need argument and has told McGinn that more than once. In the case of the D Line, we will get to see.


For what it's worth I've never been fond of Vanilla Bob; two years ago I was thinking he was out brained many a time. I wasn't the only one and with four games to go that defense was underachieving. Then we hit a blessed foursome of horrific offenses that may have saved the Vanilla man's job.

When we are undermanned creativity becomes even more important IMO.

Just the mere fact that Winston Moss is in a sense part of the game planning scares me about his prospects to be our DC as well.

[denverYooper]

Rod Marinelli will probably be available.

[Rastak]

Rod Marinelli will probably be available.


Unlikely with Kiffin heading off to the NCAA, I bet the Bucs bring him back.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Rod Marinelli will probably be available.


Unlikely with Kiffin heading off to the NCAA, I bet the Bucs bring him back.

God I love it, I can't imagine Monte and Ed Ogereon being assistant coaches for my beloved vols next year.